Visa Free talks begin

[ECOCKS]

Well, Ukraine did manage to get a verbal agreement to "the start of joint work on a roadmap for a visa-free regime with the EU". Then again they had these same types of comments regarding NATO and the EU over the last few years also.

http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/60832/

While heartening that the conversation is beginning, my guess is we're looking at years before anything comes of this.

It's also worth noting that Poroshenko's previous post was as Head of the National Bank of Ukraine Council during the IMF fiasco. The IMF loans were halted about 6-7 months ago after the failure of the Rada to adopt a responsible budget. There were also widespread allegations of insider currency trading through use of the loan monies to prop up the gryvnia rather than put the money to use moving towards a reality-based budget. The IMF will be reconsidering the termination of the loan tranches in the future IF the new regime shows signs of reigning in social spending and getting the country onto something close to a realistic operating budget. I always love how the Ukrainian politicians fail in one area and then get promoted into an even more high-profile position. Guess good help is hard to come by over there.

Poroshenko is also a Yushenko appointee holdover and one of the wealthiest oligarchs in Ukraine with holdings including the well-known Roshen Chocolate confectionery, automobile manufacturing, shipyards, brewing, food products and some interesting entrepreneurial ventures in the leisure sector.

[RussianWind]

It's already more than 10 years as Russians have this "verbal agreement" with the EU. Ukrainians are schoolboys still, need to grow a bit 

[kievstar]

Do Russian travel freely in the EU zone?  There no different than Ukraine.  Until no visa required both are red headed step children.

[ECOCKS]

Speaking of Russia.....

Visa-free Travel Between EU and Russia
by Zsuzsanna Blau, March 5, 2010

On a joint news conference, Wednesday Feb 24, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and new EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Catherine Ashton discussed cooperation between Brussels and Moscow on achieving visa-free travel between Russia and the EU in the near future.

Lavrov is promising maximum cooperation, Ashton did not give a time frame but said there is substantial amount of work to be done still, she cautioned that the process was just beginning. This was Ashton’s first visit to Moscow.

Current strict migration rules on both sides:

Russians must undergo interviews and demonstrate that they have sufficient funds for travel before obtaining visas to the EU’s border-free Schengen zone.

Europeans wishing to travel to Russia have to register and de-register if they spend three or more working days at any place in the country. The registration process is complicated because in January a fee was introduced, so that a registration now costs 2 rubles for each day of the visit, with a ceiling at 200 rubles ($6.50).
Lavrov said these registration rules will not change during visa negotiations.

       #########

Caveats abound, Russia and Ukraine are years away from visa-free travel situations for the US and the EU.

[Turboguy]

Personally I wonder if the 2012 Olympics in Sochi might start to make travel to Russia easier for both EU citizens and those from the USA.  I also wonder if that may be part of the motivation behind any talks to ease restrictions.

[Gylden]

The OP has nothing to do with Russia, it is Ukraine which is in the discussion, to have visa free travel TO the EU.

[wiz]

It's already more than 10 years as Russians have this "verbal agreement" with the EU. Ukrainians are schoolboys still, need to grow a bit  

http://www.passportmagazine.ru/article/916/

That was the latest agreement between Russia and EU....... so nothing will change until the Olympics in Sochi in 2014. Then Russia will find out that can't cope with the number of visa applications and will revert to the same action as they did last year when the European Cup final played in Moscow and 50.000 fans arrived there in 3 days.Those holding a ticket, had to let them in without Visa and many of them had nowhere to sleep because you don't have the necessary accommodation number of beds for such large numbers of visitors and on top of that your hotel prices are terrible expensive for their quality, due to the lack of beds available.

The truth of the matter is that Russia want parity with the EU but they don't realise that it will not happen soon because of the difference in income per head between EU and Russia. If the EU allow free  visa travel to Russians be sure that many millions will travel one way and the EU can't afford such an influx or immigrants, so therefore nothing will happen soon. On the other hand Russia has so many interesting places to visit but can't afford to allow free visa travel because you do not have the capacity to accommodate big numbers of tourists. Also your Government does not want to expose its people (Russians) to Western influence as it will court trouble, when the Russian will realise the difference in standards of living between our respective countries.

As about Ukraine, in 2005 they dropped the Visa requirement for EU and Americans and their tourist numbers rise dramatically but now some MP's from Donesk have table a new law in Rada to scrap the Free visa with EU and other countries as they suggest they can collect 50 million dollars in Visa Fess.

Ukraine is years away before they are offered any agreement to start talks with the EU for Free visa...... because of their poor state in income per head, like Russia.

[Gylden]

100% agree Wiz, and in addition to that the EU is a little soured with the recent events concerning Bulgaria, Romania and Greece, so like you said it will be most likely a long time coming.
 

[wiz]

100% agree Wiz, and in addition to that the EU is a little soured with the recent events concerning Bulgaria, Romania and Greece, so like you said it will be most likely a long time coming.
 

Gylden

Let me tell you this about the UK, one of the most difficult countries for Russians and Ukrainians to get a Visa.

Our stupid UK Government following the American's like a poodle, have introduced the Biometrics system but where the USA request the Biometrics on Arrival, so you have to wait a few more minutes to clear immigration, the British request their Biometrics at the time of application. The UK has 4 Consulates round Russia which means that The Russians have to travel long distances to give their Biometrics and only the Moscow, St Peterburg, Ekaterinburg and Rostov on Don people are lucky to have one in their city/town. I am furious about such treatment because it is very unfair to the poor Russian people where I can apply by post with my Greek Passport and pay only 30 Euro + 20 Euro fee for the visa office but if I use my British passport the cost goes to 100 GBP! When I got married in June 2008, I had to pay additional 170 dollars return flight for my wife to apply for her EU Visa (which was Free) in Moscow.

As about the Ukrainians...... they  must own the Bank before applying for a tourist Visa and travel to Kiev!

Russia is a vast and beautiful country and having travelled around I know that they have countless of interesting places to visit, unfortunately as I said before their Government doesn't want to change the old USSR systems...... for the reasons I have mentioned previously.

Most times I travelled there I didn't bother to register with OVIR and never had a problem about it. I am going there in June again and probably I will not bother to do it because it's all a waste of time. The people who get in trouble are those who make too much noise and attract their attention. One time I was passing through SVO1 and a clever young policeman thought I was an easy pray for a few dollars, so he asked me for my papers....... (I guessed he couldn't even read English) and then he told me to pay a fine as my papers were not correct. As it happens that time I had to register with OVIR because I needed the immigration card for Zags...... so I told him in English my papers are OK and let's go to the office. He made another try asking for 50 dollars but I told him I want to see the Boss.......and of course he let me go because he knew if he took me to his boss he will get a bollocking.

Russia has only natural resources to export and nothing else. They produce no industrial products that we will want to buy in the west and it is pity that they don't let tourism to develop by dropping the visa requirement and all the other restrictions. Of course you do realise that if they open the doors..... too many people would want to visit and the tour operators and agencies will make a lot of money but at the same time they will have to develop their hotel infrastructure and other facilities, educate their staff for good service and create a lot of employment. If they do that they will have to pay better salaries..... and the oligarchs who run the country they don't want that!

The cost of living in Russia, now, is nearly the same as in the UK but their salaries...... outside Moscow are pittance. How they survive, God only knows.

[RussianWind]

Our stupid UK Government following the American's like a poodle, have introduced the Biometrics system but where the USA request the Biometrics on Arrival, so you have to wait a few more minutes to clear immigration, the British request their Biometrics at the time of application.

Brits request the biometrics both ways - at the application and on the arrival.

The UK has 4 Consulates round Russia which means that The Russians have to travel long distances to give their Biometrics and only the Moscow, St Peterburg, Ekaterinburg and Rostov on Don people are lucky to have one in their city/town.

Damn Brits! Why don't they set a consulate in every Russian city, better two!
The 5th Consulate is in Novosibirsk. Quite a lot of them here comparing with other countries.

[ECOCKS]

Yes, everyone has a right to travel wherever and whenever they please!

Oh, the inhumanity of it all!

Come on, each country sets their own standards and regulations. That's as it should be. They loosen them when security and the economy allow and tighten when the need is there for more restriction.

Yes, it's inconvenient and tedious at times, yet I cannot help but believe the last thoughts of the passengers in the hijacked planes approaching the WTC or those aboard the Lockerbie flight had anything to do with how much of a pain in the ass the security requirements were.

Nothing like a few dead bodies of loved ones and fellow citizens to bring public opinion and righteous indignation to a screaming halt and a 180 degree turn in viewpoint.

Personally, if listening to my cell phone calls saves any lives, I'm all for it. If a tighter, passport design lessens the chance for forgeries to slip through the system, bring them on. Profiling? Yeah, as soon as little Norwegian grannies start blowing up planes I want them strip-searched and body-scanned.

Unreasonable restrictions? There are some (for Americans at least). Leave the guns alone, we can say what we want, practice what religion we wish, print what we like, face our accusers in a court of law (unless we are terrorists or involved in military operations).

[wiz]

Brits request the biometrics both ways - at the application and on the arrival.

Sorry you are wrong they don't ask on arrival for the biometrics.

Have you ever been to the UK?

Damn Brits! Why don't they set a consulate in every Russian city, better two!
The 5th Consulate is in Novosibirsk. Quite a lot of them here comparing with other countries.

Nothing is wrong with having many consulates around. We pay the rent not you!

It is more helpful for people who want to travel to UK and I can assure you that there are 250, 000 Russians living in the UK.

[shakespear]

It's already more than 10 years as Russians have this "verbal agreement" with the EU. Ukrainians are schoolboys still, need to grow a bit 

Russia is going to have to do something before Socchi in 2014.  The current system will be absolutely for an event of such worldwide appeal

[RussianWind]

Sorry you are wrong they don't ask on arrival for the biometrics.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/fingerprint-checks-at-border/

Have you ever been to the UK?

Not less than you in Russia.

Nothing is wrong with having many consulates around. We pay the rent not you!

Oh yeah... do you know how much a student visa cost now?

It is more helpful for people who want to travel to UK and I can assure you that there are 250, 000 Russians living in the UK.

Your logic sometimes kills. There is about a milion Russians in the USA and what?

[wiz]

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/fingerprint-checks-at-border/

Sorry but I didn't know that because my wife is a Russian National but is exempt from such scrutinity and she always comes through with me at the European UK arrivals side! I am more angry about our stupid Government

Not less than you in Russia.

Oh yeah... do you know how much a student visa cost now?

Your logic sometimes kills. There is about a milion Russians in the USA and what?

So how many times you have visited the UK?
I have been to Russia 14 times!

No I don't know the cost of a student Visa..... I know how much it will cost me my visa tp Russia for the previledge to be allowed to visit my family in Russia! 
My wife, a Russian National, does not need a visa to visit not only my country but also any other EU country too!

My  logic is simple, despite of the many problems the Russian encounter for getting a Visa to the UK they are still many of them over here. I can't say the same for us!

When you speak so good English why you always reply with one of two liners?

[Faux Pas]

Unreasonable restrictions? There are some (for Americans at least). Leave the guns alone, we can say what we want, practice what religion we wish, print what we like, face our accusers in a court of law (unless we are terrorists or involved in military operations).

Ed, military tribunals are still courts of law. Much more strict, regimented and subject to a different protocol and even additional laws the civilian courts are not. Or was your reference to the difference of open and closed courts?

[ECOCKS]

No FP, you are correct that they are legitimate courts of law but the distinction between civil and military law has blurred of late due to the terrorist situationand has also been subject to criticismfrom external (nono-US) sources. I was just attemptin to word it to cover all the bases in hopes of dodging some pissy comment about civil law courts and military ones. My bad for being vague and trying to be over-cautious in the phrasing.

[Boethius]

Here is the typical scenario in talks of visa free travel to Ukraine.  The EU promises it will look at the issue.  They suggest to Ukraine, well, as we are discussing this, perhaps Ukraine should open its markets to some of our products.  Then, excess EU products (in the past, butter, medications, outdated electronics, metric tonnes of used clothing, used cars) make their way into Ukraine.  Then, the "talks" lead nowhere.

The EU views Ukrainians as rubes and given Ukraine continues to open up its market to them and assume they will grant them visas (ain't gonna happen), perhaps they are correct.

[ECOCKS]

Sadly, I agree with B's assessment.

I'd even say that this happened with NATO although the US and probably the UK seemed sincere in their hopes to bring them into the fold. Hindsight makes me wonder if other NATO members weren't doing the same gamesmanship plays on this matter as well though.

[kievstar]

Boethius is correct. 

Why it was good there is a new President of Ukraine who will hopefully shut out the EU until the EU plays on the same field.

[wiz]

Boethius

I don’t agree with your analysis of the situation regarding the visa situation and the continuous talking between the EU and the Ukraine. Obviously you have missed the visits by Putin, Medvedev and other Russian officials to European countries and especially Putin visiting Germany, Medvedev Paris and Lavrov to the EU head quarters in Brussels…….. for various talks. These visits are not just a public relation practices but the Russians have a product which the Europeans consume at the rate of 35 % of their total gas needs for them and they want to make sure this arrangement continues between Russia and the EU. Unfortunately the Ukrainian previous Government has caused too many problems to endanger the normal flow of the Russian gas to Europe. Now the Government has changed and if you noticed Yanukovits first visited Brussels last Monday and then went to report back to his Russian masters.

The truth of the matter is that Ukraine has not much to export that the Europeans wants to buy! The only leverage to bargain is their control of the ancient transporting system for Russian Gas, which pretty soon will be bypassed by the North and South stream pipe lines the Russians and the Europeans are building together thus Ukraine is going to loose and nice steady transport income from Russian gas because of the stupid games the previous Administration played, causing shortage of gas to Europe, gas which the Europeans had contracted and paid to the Russians.

The excess European capacity of certain products that the EU exports to Ukraine or rather the Ukrainians import, because they are cheap and Ukrainians can’t afford to buy anything else as they have not the currency and their economy is dependent on IMF loans,  it is not that important for the EU where gas is. Also if you don’t know EU companies have moved into Ukraine and have secured huge parts of fertile land where they produce cheap whit to export back to the EU.

I am sure you know that Ukraine’s 80% of trade is with Russia and their dependence in Russian Gas and oil is absolute, so the so called “Orange revolution” was nothing more than a game between the USA and Russia and as it happens, Russian connections with Ukraine are very close and deep…..as nearly 50 % of the population, if not more, speak Russian, think or are Russians and many of them have Russian passports too, so now with the new Pro-Russian Government of Yanukovits you see nothing new happening then Russia re-establishing its Regional influence. Soon you will hear that Russia has signed another deal about the Sevastopol bases and the current deal which ends in 2017 will be renewed.

You didn't really think that the Russians would let the Americans establish a base in Odessa, did you?

Russia Last year made clear to the Americans, with their war in Georgia, that they are not prepared to give up their regional influence on the ex FSU countries and all the talk by the American’s and the British for Georgia joining NATO together with the Ukrainians was not sincere on their part and nothing more than a hot air. Did you read that the Russians opened the communications again with Georgia by opening the passage under the Caucasus?

BTW Obama needs Russia’s support if he is going to impose more sanctions to Iran and Russia has indicated the day before yesterday that they will side with the American's…… so Ukraine has nothing to bargain and like it or not that is the truth of the matter.

Finally do you really think the Europeans worry about Yanukovits re-imposing visa requirements?

Not in your nelly dear Boethius. It’s Ukraine who will loose the tourist income from the 1000's of Europeans and Americans visiting the country and continue to increase because of the no visa requirement and the cost of living been lower there and mustn't forget their best export product, Ukrainian beautiful women! 

[Boethius]

Boethius

I don’t agree with your analysis of the situation regarding the visa situation and the continuous talking between the EU and the Ukraine. Obviously you have missed the visits by Putin, Medvedev and other Russian officials to European countries and especially Putin visiting Germany, Medvedev Paris and Lavrov to the EU head quarters in Brussels…….. for various talks.

What do the visits of Russian officials have to do with the lifting of Ukrainian nationals?

The truth of the matter is that Ukraine has not much to export that the Europeans wants to buy!

I never posted otherwise.  However, Ukraine does, in fact, have outstanding agricultural products.

The excess European capacity of certain products that the EU exports to Ukraine or rather the Ukrainians import, because they are cheap and Ukrainians can’t afford to buy anything else as they have not the currency and their economy is dependent on IMF loans,  it is not that important for the EU where gas is. Also if you don’t know EU companies have moved into Ukraine and have secured huge parts of fertile land where they produce cheap whit to export back to the EU.

The point was, the market was closed until the EU asked for "talks".  Once the EU dumped their products into Ukraine, the "talks" went nowhere.

I am sure you know that Ukraine’s 80% of trade is with Russia and their dependence in Russian Gas and oil is absolute, so the so called “Orange revolution” was nothing more than a game between the USA and Russia and as it happens, Russian connections with Ukraine are very close and deep…..as nearly 50 % of the population, if not more, speak Russian, think or are Russians and many of them have Russian passports too, so now with the new Pro-Russian Government of Yanukovits you see nothing new happening then Russia re-establishing its Regional influence. Soon you will hear that Russia has signed another deal about the Sevastopol bases and the current deal which ends in 2017 will be renewed.

The Russian population of Ukraine is far lower than 50%.  How many speak Russian is irrelevant.  Most Ukrainians in Western Ukraine, educated in the USSR, speak Russian.  But they have never voted for closer ties with Russia.

You didn't really think that the Russians would let the Americans establish a base in Odessa, did you?

Did I ever post that?

Finally do you really think the Europeans worry about Yanukovits re-imposing visa requirements?

Not in your nelly dear Boethius. It’s Ukraine who will loose the tourist income from the 1000's of Europeans and Americans visiting the country and continue to increase because of the no visa requirement and the cost of living been lower there and mustn't forget their best export product, Ukrainian beautiful women!  

I do hope Ukraine reimposes visa requirements.  Women are human beings.  I didn't realize they were a commodity to be exported.

[kievstar]

Ukraine maybe a poor country however it does provide steel and agriculture at a very good rate.  It also is one of the leaders in engineering around military products. Very good with IT needs. 

Ukraine also has 45 million people and many like to buy the expensive EU products.  Does the EU need Ukraine - not really.  Does Ukraine need the EU - not really.  Does Ukraine need either the EU or Russia - yes they do.  Russia would be a better choice for them unless the EU becomes more civil towards them.  Ukraine to the EU is like how USA treats its dog - Canada.  No offense to Canada but Canada needs the USA and USA does not need Canada. Canadians may not like this but who really buys Canadian products? Which country invests in Canada?

I work for a company now that provides energy accessories so I know where the oil and gas booms are going to be next 10-15 years.  Surprising much of the EU energy needs maybe coming from Africa if Asia does not take all of it.  EU may not need Russia or Ukraine.

[Boethius]

Canada currently is the #1 exporter of oil to the U.S.  China and France have invested heavily in the oilsands.

There is also a lot of Canadian technology used worldwide, such as the blackberry.

[UTRO]

Ukraine to the EU is like how USA treats its dog - Canada.  No offense to Canada but Canada needs the USA and USA does not need Canada. Canadians may not like this but who really buys Canadian products? Which country invests in Canada?

Nice.

Kievstar, you just earned the Label so often thrown around on this Site, 'Ugly American'