Help! Hearing in MD Senate to determine future of International dating

[Boethius]

There was a background check done on me, as there was on her. If there was anything glaring the application would have been denied.
Isn't this same type of background scrutiny done on American citizens who apply to have their FSU fiancée or wife join them in the US?

There is no background check done on the Canadian citizen when he/she applies to sponsor a spouse, other than that the Canadian has sufficient income to support that spouse.

The drafters of the MD law should enact a meaningful law based upon scientific evidence that would provide protection to everyone rather than going after a few International daters who are angry and kicking up such a fuss because they feel like they are being singled out like a political unpopular group.  

Dead foreign brides is a sufficient reason.

International daters can, as Misha stated, go to free personal sites.  Or they can go and meet women outside bars in their home countries (using Shadow's example).  

[UTRO]

There is no background check done on the Canadian citizen when he/she applies to sponsor a spouse, other than that the Canadian has sufficient income to support that spouse.
Dead foreign brides is a sufficient reason.

Boethius, that is Dead Wrong.

CIC Immigration Form IMM1344EA Application To Sponsor And Undertaking, Section E Eligibility Assessment, questions 11, 12 and 16, specifically asks the Sponsor....

11. Are you currently detained in a jail, prison, penitentiary or reformatory?

12. In the five years preceding your application, have you been convicted of a sexual offence or an offence against the person in relation to one of your family members?

16. Have you been charged with an offence under an Act Of Parliament punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of at least 10 years?

Furthermore, Section H Authority To Disclose Personal Information, states....

By submitting this form, you consent to the release to the Canadian
government authorities of all records and information any government
authority, including police, judicial and state authorities in all countries
in which you have lived may possess on your behalf. This information
will be used to assist in evaluating your ability to sponsor or co-sign.

Clearly the Sponsor is investigated. In fact, I was told by an Immigration Officer from the CIC Call Centre in Montreal, that CIC and CISIS does a thorough investigation of both the Sponsor and Sponsored after the Sponsorship Application is sent to the Sponsored 'Out Of Country Foreign Embassy'.

[GregfromGa]

Is Shadow putting down Canada? It is the First Canadian Army that liberated the Netherlands from the Nazi forces  During the war, the royal family of the Netherlands moved to Canada and a princess was born in Canada in their exile.

I'm pretty sure they had a little help there Misha but I agree with Dan that we need to get this back on the topic. I just cant for the love of all things holy understand why some of you are so adamantly against a bill that would help protect women and children coming to this country. It would help protect them from  possible harm and also from becoming a burden on the tax payers of Maryland when she realizes the man she married might not be all he said he was. I'm not saying it's perfect but at least it's a start in the right direction. And Shadow I'll say I'm sorry for ripping your government in the way I did regarding the Van Der Sloot kid. I realize that it's not you personally behind him not getting arrested. We have to do more as a society to keep our kids safe and hold those accountable when they hurt women and children.

[GQBlues]

Cyber- terrorism as cause of concern is underrated. Any law passed that allows privacy-sensitive information to be passed in to potentially lowly-secured databases should consider the possibility and implications of the data being stolen.

dunno Shadow, you are definitely stuck on first gear. This bill is no more a threat to a person's personal record than what is already available in those pay-per-record services in the internet today. Public records, whether it is a person's marital status, civil judgments, etc...are simply that, public records. Meaning John or Jane Doe can either pay an internet-based service for the information, or they can visit one of the thousands of public hall of records everywhere in the US and get it themselves. Moreover, there are at least millions of mailers being sent by CC companies containing pre-printed checks, with the customer's name, address, account number, and heck, even the amount of the check and a simple signature is all that is required. So while I appreciate your cyber-terrorism concern, citing this issue as a cause of concern over this bill is very silly.

Which makes it exactly difficult to understand. A law is passed that for those who would have concerns of the implications affecting their chances allows easy circumvention, and gives a relatively high risk of exposure of private data of non-affected individuals to criminal elements.

The element of easy circumvention makes the law miss the target.
The element of exposure of private data makes the law a concern for those not targetted.

The sole purpose of the law I can think of is trying to bring down the number of immigrant spouses in Maryland, by creating obstacles.

I will try this one more time.

US-based marriage agencies are licensed, permitted, and sanctioned to operate their businesses by the State and Federal governments. In the matter of HOC 65 HOS 129, the state of Maryland is attempting to take this one step further by ensuring that compliance will be mandated at the state level as well. They've spelled out what the requirements will be for anyone engaging in International Marriage Brokering. Any Maryland-based marriage agencies have to abide by the pending law. Any Maryland resident engaging and dealing with ANY US-based marriage agency, are also required to comply. These pay-for-profit agencies are being singled out for now simply because they are licensed, permitted, and sanctioned to conduct their for-profit businesses by the Federal and State governments.

So the circumvention of these agencies at this time is not a concern for both the federal or the state governments. The pending law will only apply to those willing to subscribe and comply in working with these specific agencies.

The government cannot be entangled with a lawful, licensed, permitted entity or enterprise, that may in fact result in trafficking of foreign nationals, or any cause of sexual and abuse predation if the function is not regulated. Hence, the regulation. It is just like the FDA exercising a cautionary regulatory measures and/or prevention regulation if it deemed that a licensed company had marketed a product which proved to be gravely harmful or a danger to the public.

Agencies may be impacted/affected by this regulations. No companies are openly willing to be under governement regulations, so they send in an army of attorneys and supporters to re-paint bills such as this under the guise of infringement upon a person's privacy or removing priviledges deemed as a constitutional right. In short, the general opposing public had been blown hot air through their arses and are now doggedly huffing and puffing conned platform for these agencies. There's too many gullible Americans that make for easy targeting and manipulations.

Curious. Do you know offhand any Maryland-based International Marriage agency? Any events happened with people (client/recruit) who had subscribed through that agency?

I hope this bill passes without a hitch as I have a feeling that if and when it does, the states of Arizona and Texas is shortly to follow. Then after that, hopefully a far more reaching bill would hit the entire industry, for-profit or free - domestic and international.

Then many in this endeavor will easily float to the top.  

For those of you who keep crying my rights are being violated. Presumption of guilt is unconstitutional! yadayadayada...next time you find yourself in an airport about to board a plane, do your crying there, and loudly. Do so with loud conviction, OK?

[UTRO]

I agree with Dan that we need to get this back on the topic.

Dan didn't say, We, Greg..... lol! ...reminder below

Greg,

This is SERIOUSLY off-topic.

Bring it back to the topic at hand.

- Dan

[ECOCKS]

dunno

Then many in this endeavor will easily float to the top.  

Or sink to the bottom with the other $#!%.....

[Boethius]

Greg you yet again demonstrate that history is not your forté.   No one country won WWII, and that includes the Americans.

Boethius, that is Dead Wrong.

CIC Immigration Form IMM1344EA Application To Sponsor And Undertaking, Section E Eligibility Assessment, questions 11, 12 and 16, specifically asks the Sponsor....

11. Are you currently detained in a jail, prison, penitentiary or reformatory?

12. In the five years preceding your application, have you been convicted of a sexual offence or an offence against the person in relation to one of your family members?

16. Have you been charged with an offence under an Act Of Parliament punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of at least 10 years?

Furthermore, Section H Authority To Disclose Personal Information, states....

By submitting this form, you consent to the release to the Canadian
government authorities of all records and information any government
authority, including police, judicial and state authorities in all countries
in which you have lived may possess on your behalf. This information
will be used to assist in evaluating your ability to sponsor or co-sign.

Clearly the Sponsor is investigated. In fact, I was told by an Immigration Officer from the CIC Call Centre in Montreal, that CIC and CISIS does a thorough investigation of both the Sponsor and Sponsored after the Sponsorship Application is sent to the Sponsored 'Out Of Country Foreign Embassy'.

The disclosure of that information does not constitute a background check, Utro.  If any of those questions are answered affirmatively, the potential sponsor may not be entitled to proceed with a sponsorship.

Visas are granted on the basis of the applications submitted.  The Canadian government generally does not do a background check on sponsors beyond the paperwork submitted.

[Misha]

I'm pretty sure they had a little help there Misha

And, so did the United States, which is something that Americans too easily forget 


 

[GregfromGa]

And, so did the United States, which is something that Americans too easily forget 


 

Did you ever hear me say that?

[UTRO]

The disclosure of that information does not constitute a background check, Utro.  If any of those questions are answered affirmatively, the potential sponsor may not be entitled to proceed with a sponsorship.

Visas are granted on the basis of the applications submitted.  The Canadian government generally does not do a background check on sponsors beyond the paperwork submitted.

Boethius, how do you know all this? You seem very very confident in your replies on this matter without providing any hard evidence.
At the same I believe you know what you're talking about    How long have you been working for CISIS anyway? 

So you think that the CIC Call Centre guy was bluffing me?

If an FSU Woman has a Foreigner visiting her, in her country, would it not be reasonable to assume that this Foreigner has no Criminal Record? Or at least a non-violent one? I doubt very much that Russian Passport Control would let this sort of thing slide and give a criminal entry into the Motherland?!? They're pretty thorough from my experiences.

My point is that, Women in general are no more in danger with a Foreign man than with a Domestic one and there is no freely available Criminal Database for Domestic dating. So why just for Foreign dating? Criminal Records are not freely available to the public due to Privacy Laws. Sure you could ask a cop friend to check someone out for you, but he/her is risking their job doing so.
Boethius, when you dated men in Canada did you ask for a Police Check from them?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative with you Boethius. I think you are an Excellent Member here!

[Misha]

Did you ever hear me say that?

You seemed to imply that it is the Americans that had cleared the Nazis out of the Netherlands. I merely pointed out that the Canadian Army had been the leading force fighting the Germans in Shadow's homeland during WWII.

[UTRO]

I'm pretty sure they had a little help there Misha.

Actually Greg, you're correct.... but not in the way you think.
The 'help' or 'motivation' was the Western Allies waking up and realizing that if they didn't land on the Atlantic coast of Europe soon, the Soviets would be drinking French Champagne and eating Dutch Gouda by October 1945.
It was an Allied effort!

[Boethius]

Utro, all one needs to do is peruse some of the immigration case law.  The questions on the sponsorship forms are from regulations to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.  They're intended as a "self screen".  The majority of claims are not further screened.  However, the feds always retain the right to delve further if they wish.  In most cases, they don't.

Everyone I dated before I married was known to me through school.  Most of the married women I know met their husbands at school (some, high school, most university) or at work.  I just don't think the situations are analogous.  Dating someone from your own country, your own community, is different.  You speak the language.  You aren't relying solely on your date.  You have your own home to go back to if he's a jerk.  You may even call a male relative if things are very difficult.  A lot more resources are available to locals.  It just is not the same. 

To suggest this is about freedom to me is ludicrous.  You are dealing already with inequities from a socio-economic dynamic, which generally favours the Westerner.  If a man has 3 prior marriages, a woman should know in making her decision.

[Gylden]

"Utro, all one needs to do is peruse some of the immigration case law.  The questions on the sponsorship forms are from regulations to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.  They're intended as a "self screen".  The majority of claims are not further screened.  However, the feds always retain the right to delve further if they wish.  In most cases, they don't."

Well there you have it! The "feds" should get off their arses and do what they have the right to do and stop clogging up the system with more garbage, which they won't do!

As for example my daughters are American citizens, I would like to see the same effort put into protecting them at the same time as any foreigner.

This legislation is useless, as it is targeted at such a narrow segment of society! If anyone wishes to be "high and mighty" then they best think of everyone concerned!

[Boethius]

Why should the taxpayers pay for this, Gylden?  Shouldn't those seeking the service pay for it?

Your daughters likely know they can call the police.  They know they can go to a parent's, or a friend's home.  They probably have good jobs, and are, or will be self supporting.  They have a lot of options a woman just off a plane, often with minimal language skills and adapting to a foreign culture, does not have.

[Misha]

Your daughters likely know they can call the police.

And a RW wouldn't know she can call the police? My wife is studying English at the local immigration center. One of the first things they teach is how to call 911 and the rights women in Canada. Even if a woman was completely clueless when she arrives in Canada (and no RW that I have ever met in Canada fell into that category), she would quickly learn how and when to call the police.

[Gylden]

Sorry Boethius, I just don't buy it. Tax payers are already paying for it and just not getting it. I am sure if you look into it more American/Canadian women are victim to this kind of abuse than foreign brides.

Still there is the fact that this legislation only applies to a small sector of the women immigrating through marriage.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for protecting Innocent people, but a bad law is still a bad law, no matter how people try to justify it!

Do you think those "animals" will suddenly just stop because they can't use an "agency" any longer? I am sure they will find another way and other people, so it is an attempt at deferring their actions to another target, instead of addressing the real problem.

[Boethius]

Misha, how many abused women have you worked with?  Yes, dialing the police will magically solve all your problems.

Sorry Boethius, I just don't buy it. Tax payers are already paying for it and just not getting it. I am sure if you look into it more American/Canadian women are victim to this kind of abuse than foreign brides.

Still there is the fact that this legislation only applies to a small sector of the women immigrating through marriage.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for protecting Innocent people, but a bad law is still a bad law, no matter how people try to justify it!

Do you think those "animals" will suddenly just stop because they can't use an "agency" any longer? I am sure they will find another way and other people, so it is an attempt at deferring their actions to another target, instead of addressing the real problem.

Of course more WW are abused.  Because more WW are married to WM.  The number of foreign/WM marriages is relatively small, surely numbering less than 200,000, at a maximum.  Yet, in my memory, there are the 8 months pregnant Susanna Blackwell, shot, along with two friends, by her abusive husband, Alla Barnay, whose husband had a previous history of domestic abuse, Nina Reiser, Anastasia King, whose husband's previous marriage broke up due to abuse, and he was already "ordering" bride number 3 before dispensing with her,  Thomas Lane, who was also "ordering" wife number 2 after drowning his pregnant Filipina wife, picked from a catalogue, Jack Reeves, who killed his American wife, then his Korean wife, and had a Russian woman living with him at the time he murdered his Filipina wife.  The Russian woman also disappeared.  

Statistically, that is pretty damning for such a small number of marriages.

Why target agencies?  Because they cater to men and don't care about anything else.  It's a different dynamic than free personals.  And, if a man feels this is a violation of his rights, there is a simple solution.  Don't register with a foreign dating agency.

[Misha]

Misha, how many abused women have you worked with?

And what does this have to do with RW knowing they can call the police   

Yes, dialing the police will magically solve all your problems.

As you should know, it is standard police policy in most of Canada to arrest a man if they suspect any abuse. I had some acquaintances who learned this the hard way a few years ago. It was a RM-RW couple. They were arguing/fighting, the police showed up, he was arrested and taken down to the station.

Then, there is another woman that I knew. She was fighting with her husband, and they took her to the local women's shelter, where she received legal help and divorced her husband. She was granted spousal support for 3 or 5 years. Sure, the police didn't solve everything, but she did receive plenty of help  If anything, her case demonstrates that women do get support from the police and the state in Canada in most cases.

[Gylden]

Of course more WW are abused.  Because more WW are married to WM.  The number of foreign/WM marriages is relatively small, surely numbering less than 200,000, at a maximum.  Yet, in my memory, there are the 8 months pregnant Susanna Blackwell, shot, along with two friends, by her abusive husband, Alla Barnay, whose husband had a previous history of domestic abuse, Nina Reiser, Anastasia King, whose husband's previous marriage broke up due to abuse, and he was already "ordering" bride number 3 before dispensing with her,  Thomas Lane, who was also "ordering" wife number 2 after drowning his pregnant Filipina wife, picked from a catalogue, Jack Reeves, who killed his American wife, then his Korean wife, and had a Russian woman living with him at the time he murdered his Filipina wife.  The Russian woman also disappeared.  

Statistically, that is pretty damning for such a small number of marriages.

Why target agencies?  Because they cater to men and don't care about anything else.  It's a different dynamic than free personals.  And, if a man feels this is a violation of his rights, there is a simple solution.  Don't register with a foreign dating agency.

These cases you site are of course all of them tragic, but are you saying the American women who were involved don't deserve the protection which the foreign women do? These men don't care if a woman is Russian, Asian or American.

Is the problem men? or Agencies? Or is the problem criminals/sex offenders? I can guarantee you that those sex offenders will definitely feel it is a violation of their rights and they will move on to other methods. so the problem will continue.

[Boethius]

And what does this have to do with RW knowing they can call the police    

As you should know, it is standard police policy in most of Canada to arrest a man if they suspect any abuse. I had some acquaintances who learned this the hard way a few years ago. It was a RM-RW couple. They were arguing/fighting, the police showed up, he was arrested and taken down to the station.

Then, there is another woman that I knew. She was fighting with her husband, and they took her to the local women's shelter, where she received legal help and divorced her husband. She was granted spousal support for 3 or 5 years. Sure, the police didn't solve everything, but she did receive plenty of help  

Actually, it is not standard policy for police to arrest men in Canada.  In my city, it is not a "standard" policy.

Try calling the police in a domestic dispute case in Ukraine, and I know this to be true in parts of Russia, and see how far you get.  Do you think people magically develop a trust of police just because they've stepped off a plane?

Two anecdotal cases is what you've presented, Misha.  A colleague of mine who practices exclusively in family law has countless stories that would make your hair stand on end.  Shelters are full.  Restraining orders are flouted with no consequences.  Assets are hidden.  For every story of a woman getting everything is a story of a woman, usually with children, who is struggling.  (Similar stories for men who have custodial access denied, so it can be a two way street).

These cases you site are of course all of them tragic, but are you saying the American women who were involved don't deserve the protection which the foreign women do? These men don't care if a woman is Russian, Asian or American.

Of course they do, and they have it.  

All of the men in the cases I cited were social misfits.  Most would have been tagged as such by AW, or their friends, somewhere in the dating process.  They would not have been moving in with a man they barely knew, and with whom they did not share a common language.

Is the problem men? or Agencies? Or is the problem criminals/sex offenders? I can guarantee you that those sex offenders will definitely feel it is a violation of their rights and they will move on to other methods. so the problem will continue.

The problem is a small number of men and agencies who cater to them because it is all about money.  I don't restrict this to sex offenders.

[Gylden]

"All of the men in the cases I cited were social misfits.  Most would have been tagged as such by AW, or their friends, somewhere in the dating process.  They would not have been moving in with a man they barely knew, and with whom they did not share a common language."

most important = "barely knew"

Well now, do you mean that it is OK for a Russian woman to move in with a man they barely know and don't share a common language with, but not someone allready living "in country"?

"The problem is a small number of men and agencies who cater to them because it is all about money.  I don't restrict this to sex offenders."

So that I don't slip up on semantics can we just refer to these men as "misfits"?

Are you suggesting that Foreign women are allowed to be less responsible than domestic women? After all the woman must take some responsibility in this matter as well. There are plenty of resources available to foreign women too and any woman who is considering marrying a foreign man should take steps to understand what she is getting into. Plenty of forums in FSU, for a start.

Do you think it is responsible for a woman to marry a man she does not share a common language with?

[Gylden]

"Most would have been tagged as such by AW, or their friends, somewhere in the dating process. "

This statement is just plain sad, the papers are full of American women who have fallen victim to such "misfits". To suggest  that they should have known better is very very weak!

[Boethius]

Well now, do you mean that it is OK for a Russian woman to move in with a man they barely know and don't share a common language with, but not someone allready living "in country"?

Whether I think it is okay or not is irrelevant.  It is happening.

Are you suggesting that Foreign women are allowed to be less responsible than domestic women? After all the woman must take some responsibility in this matter as well. There are plenty of resources available to foreign women too and any woman who is considering marrying a foreign man should take steps to understand what she is getting into. Plenty of forums in FSU, for a start.

Foreign women (and this is not restricted to the FSU) do not have the same resources available to them as domestic women.  Language is just one factor.

Do you think it is responsible for a woman to marry a man she does not share a common language with?

I don't know.  It is not my place to judge this.  People marry for all sorts of reasons, and usually, responsibility is not at the top of the list.  However, there are plenty of men on this forum who married women with whom they did not share a common language, or a common culture.  They would be in a better position to answer this question.

This statement is just plain sad, the papers are full of American women who have fallen victim to such "misfits". To suggest  that they should have known better is very very weak!

The FSU cases I cited (4) occurred in less than a decade from the time FSU women could legally emigrate.  In Anastasia King's case, she was already a battered woman when she returned to her husband and was murdered.  There are plenty of other cases of domestic abuse that did not result in murder.

I never stated AW should "know better".  I stated they have more resources available to them than someone "fresh off the boat".  Further, I believe groups working with immigrant women state the proportion of abuse is statistically higher for WM/foreign born women. 

Sure, AW fall victim to abusers.  AM do too.  FSU women are often abused by FSM men in their homelands, too.  But in domestic cases, resources are available to them that they don't have in other cases.

In any event, this law is not opposed by the majority of individuals, and likely is supported by groups working with immigrant women.  So, the chance of it not being passed, based on the self interested objections of men, is pretty remote.

[Gylden]

"So, the chance of it not being passed, based on the self interested objections of men, is pretty remote."  ???

WOW, can you be more specific about this? I can't think of any example in any post here, which would fall under this category.


If someone were to say that these checks would occur at the federal level at time of of the K-1 or K-whatever visa application and that there would be an extra charge to cover the costs, I might be on board, simply because it would include ALL of those poor women who are attempting to immigrate, but it isn't and it is just the state of Maryland and the taxpayers are already wasting plenty of money on such laws.