Help with salary

[fred3]

SEX: female
AGE: 23
EDUCATION: bachelors degree in accounting
WORK: Accountant
YEARS OF EXPERIENCE: 1.5
CITY: odessa, ukraine

Any idea how much she can make as an accountant(FULL TIME) every month?
under $200?

[kievstar]

Depends on what she is doing - What size company is she working for and is it a foreign owned company outside Eastern Europe? 

What is her job duties as accounting can me many different things.  What languages can she do business in?

I doubt she is making under $200 a month.  I would put her range between $200 and $2,000 after tax a month but really depends on what she does and type of company. 

[Turboguy]

Five or ten years ago $ 200.00 a month might have been a good salary but the impression I have is that things have changed a lot.  I would think $ 200.00 or a little less might be possible but more likely it would be much higher. 

[Jack]

In Odessa?  Less than 2 years experience, my guess is if she is working for a local company $650-$800 a month.   If a foreign company, $1100-$1500 a month.

[Gator]

Fred3,

Why do you ask?

Does your title "help with salary" mean that you intend to subsidize her income?  If so, this may be a slippery slope dependent upon a number of factors.

[innakrug]

$188-$377 a month

[CanadaMan]

I also have a few questions about salaries in the Ukraine/FSU.

But first off, it's difficult to get a precise feel for a person's salary if you just talk about how much money is made per month.
For example, I have learned that it is common for someone to be working 10 hours a day or even 12 hours a day in the FSU.
In this regard, a $/hr figure would pin down a person's salary in a much more meaningful way.

What I'd really like to know however is how people can survive in the FSU on such salaries? I have yet to hear a good explanation other than "Oh.. you know the Russians are very resourceful people... or... they can be very thrifty" etc. etc.

When I was in Russia recently I saw the prices in the stores, restaurants, taxi fares etc.
It just doesn't add up. The store/restaurant prices were fairly in line with western prices. BUT... westerners are earning more than 10x the FSU salaries!

[TwoBitBandit]

When I was in Russia recently I saw the prices in the stores, restaurants, taxi fares etc.
It just doesn't add up. The store/restaurant prices were fairly in line with western prices. BUT... westerners are earning more than 10x the FSU salaries!

I agree.  I've spent my share of time in the FSU and I don't understand it at all.  I'd starve to death if I had to live in the FSU on an FSU salary.  I honestly can't see how you can survive there.

[Handycam72]

I was discussing salary with someone from Ukraine just the other day. They told me that some people get what is known as "A 2 Part Salary". Now my understanding is their official salary could be say $100 a month, but they will receive another say $400 on top of that which is not declared. So when someone asks whats their salary they will say $100 a month, not $500.
The figures are just an example.

Has anyone here, heard of the "2 Part Salary"?

[GQBlues]

Has anyone here, heard of the "2 Part Salary"?

Yeppers wth me.

Which is likely where we're headed too soon enough if things keep going at the rate we're in....

[BillyB]

Any idea how much she can make as an accountant(FULL TIME) every month?
under $200?

Anything is possible in the FSU including not getting paid. A few ladies I've dated said there were times they did not get paid at all. A Russian woman I'm currently dating once worked in a major Russian city as a young physician/surgeon made only $250 a month.

[CanadaMan]

Anything is possible in the FSU including not getting paid. A few ladies I've dated said there were times they did not get paid at all...

 I heard that a few times too from some women, including very recently.
That just makes my earlier question more puzzling.

I mean you've got to put bread on the table somehow and pay the rent.

[kievstar]

I think if we analysed what this accountant was doing it was more clerical or bookkeeping work.  To many people confuse the two and go with the more prestige title.  Working in a government office in a small city outside Odessa is going to be a very low paying job and probably one that should be eliminated.  

Ukraine has a shortage of accountants and the good news the managing partners of Deloitte and KPMG are hiring again in Donetsk and these jobs are over $2,000 per month.  Hiring accountants to do the accounting for big companies (outsourcing work). Get a USA CPA, IFRS experience, and quality university education and speak Ukrainian, Russian, and English and your in high demand right now.

The funny thing is Six Sigma is showing up in Ukraine now. For anybody who is an expert in this and can speak Ukrainian or Russian fluent you can make $100,000 usd a year right now in Eastern Ukraine.  

[ECOCKS]

There is really no way to answer the question. In Ukraine there are "accountants" who make $200 and ones who make $3000. It depends on whether you're "really" an accountant, a bookkeeper, opening the mail in the accounting department, sorting invoices or balancing the register at the end of the business day. Other variables, as mentioned, involve the company you work for, nature of the industry, the city/area you live in, who you know at the company, length of time on the job, supervision of others, other duties, etc.

As for how they do it, the answers are more complex. While official salaries are understated for tax and legal reasons, these numbers are usually discussed as a total unless there is some suspicion as to why someone wants to know the actual salary. I would expect your friend is talking net salary rather than official. The answers on how they "get by" are closely tied to their housing situation, historical distrust of banking/credit, no (known) need for retirement savings, government-provided healthcare, willingness to compromise diets and cheap cereals, tea, breads and basic vegetables. As has been noted numerous times before, many families live together in an adaptation of communal systems or extended families. I know dozens of adults who still live with their parents and vice versa for financial reasons. Three and even four generations can be found in one household where adults and children often sleep on pullout beds in the converted family room, kitchen and even on balconies. Since many have no housing costs (only utilities) and automobile insurance, maintenance and depreciation are still emerging, their costs are lower than we can understand. Beer and cigarettes are cheap, people often go to the country for the weekend and sleep on blankets on floors and makeshift beds for a minimality.

The challenge for westerners attempting to live on local salaries or even on our kingly Social Security pensions (their viewpoint) is to live down at their level; forego a car, avoid insurance, use their healthcare and eat a lower grade subsistence diet. Some can do it, others cannot see how to do so.

[kievstar]

My wife's parents make less than $600 usd officially but they make a lot more than that.  Doing second hand stuff adds up.  I have yet to meet anybody in Ukraine who makes less than $200 who works full-time when you consider all their income. 

I have a good friend who amazes me on how he gets his income.  He says he only make $400 a month but some how he has a fancy car and nice apartment and goes on nice vacations.  Eats out a lot as well.  When you break it down his official job is $400 a month but he also gets bonuses and side perks.  One side perk is selling things to people he meets with his normal job.  His $400 job is really $10,000 usd per month.  He is on the extreme but I have heard you should just double to triple what people say when they report under $1,000 usd and that is closer to reality. 

Ukraine is headed in the right direction for the first time since 2004 and expect salaries to rise for the skilled workers.  The unskilled will be left behind unless they become a socialist country like the USA.

[groovlstk]

SEX: female
AGE: 23
EDUCATION: bachelors degree in accounting
WORK: Accountant
YEARS OF EXPERIENCE: 1.5
CITY: odessa, ukraine

Any idea how much she can make as an accountant(FULL TIME) every month?
under $200?

Well, if nothing else you can count on two things:
-No matter how much she's making, it's not enough
-There's not a cryin' dime left in her purse by the 30th of each month 

Like others have posted, most Russian and Ukrainians I know have two salaries, one very small (and official) which is used to report income taxes, and the other (unofficial) that was under the table. This is one of the reasons why many women are afraid they may not get their last week's pay when they emigrate, as there is no official paper trail so their employers aren't obligated to pay up.

[CanadaMan]

...The challenge for westerners attempting to live on local salaries or even on our kingly Social Security pensions (their viewpoint) is to live down at their level; forego a car, avoid insurance, use their healthcare and eat a lower grade subsistence diet. Some can do it, others cannot see how to do so.

 Thanks Ecocks, that really helps fill in the blanks to this puzzle.
It also helps explain why my GF was eating portions of food twice the size I was eating on our trips!

[mies]

Depends on what she is doing - What size company is she working for and is it a foreign owned company outside Eastern Europe?  

What is her job duties as accounting can me many different things.  What languages can she do business in?

I doubt she is making under $200 a month.  I would put her range between $200 and $2,000 after tax a month but really depends on what she does and type of company.  

what do you base your doubts on? I know quite many accountants whose salary is below $200/mo in Ukraine. You are missing on Ukrainian realities, or maybe you spend too much time among moguls and models so your view of reality got skewed. Sorry  

Fred3 - I don't see why you are asking this question. If you ask whether it is possible - yes, it is very possible that she indeed earns less than 200$/mo while being an accountant. It is very possible that for this salary she works fulltime (not 10h/week), and she doesn't have any "gray/untaxed income".

But still - I am curious why do you doubt her words. What's your point?

[Shadow]

Fred3, just to answer the unasked question.

1. Never send money to someone that you did not meet, especially for support of salary. You have not seen how and where she lives.

2. If you have met you have to be extremely careful in sending regular amount of money. remember that she has survived on the same salary until you met her, and without meeting you would still survive.
If she has extra costs because of preparations for visa, getting better language lessons or losing her job due to being engaged to a foreigner, there is no problem in sending her money.
If all you want to do is rise her standard of living the answer is : get het to live with you as soon as possible. By rising her standard of living there you risk her becoming too settled in her situation, and this will both make the step to live in another country harder, and provide her with a reason not to tell you should she have second thoughts about your relationship. In such cases many men have found this out only when the visa wand tickets were ready and the woman decided not to arrive.

[possum]

What I'd really like to know however is how people can survive in the FSU on such salaries? I have yet to hear a good explanation other than "Oh.. you know the Russians are very resourceful people... or... they can be very thrifty" etc. etc.

When I was in Russia recently I saw the prices in the stores, restaurants, taxi fares etc.
It just doesn't add up. The store/restaurant prices were fairly in line with western prices. BUT... westerners are earning more than 10x the FSU salaries!

Ya know, CanadaMan, Russians are very resourceful people and they can be very thrifty..

On a serious note, I agree with your assessment of the situation regarding FSU prices, although it's worth mentioning that while most things cost roughly the same here as they do in the US or Canada, certain food items and clothes are actually more expensive in the FSU, and I'm not talking about the stuff in boutiques, either.. Regular Chinese or Turkish made clothes are up to 3-4 times more expensive here than in the West.. A pair of Adidas sneakers goes for $150-200.. Blue jeans start at $30 for the kind that fall apart within two weeks, while a pair of nice American/British jeans costs up to a whopping 200 bux.. Or how would you like a t-shirt for $40?. Or how about a plain windbreaker for $100 or a parka for $400? Russian clothing prices are a mess, and the women have it worse than the men.. It's not uncommon for a RW to drop half her monthly pay on a single article of clothing.. Is it any wonder you guys get so many fur coat/boots requests?.

Meat is expensive due to the fact that there are very few functioning animal farms.. If this keeps up, we will all die of protein deficiency.. In many cases, fish is preferred because it's cheaper and usually fresher.. The price of veggies/fruits/juices varies greatly from region to region, but I guess that's no different in the West..

[kievstar]

Mies, I base it on working with Ernst Young, KPMG, and Deloitte in Ukraine which are accounting services for hundreds of companies within Ukraine, auditing, and tax professionals.  A bookkeeper and an accountant are very different.  Even within accounting an accounting clerk is different than an accountant.  I have  access to all the salary guides for most countries in the World for any position or functional area.  90% of the people who call themselves accountants in Ukraine are clerks or bookkeepers. I would pay a bookkeeper in Ukraine with a 4 year university degree equivalent less than $200 as a bookkeeper is really someone who is 15 years old could do.  Do not need a college education or highschool education to do work in accounts payable, accounts receivable, customs, duties, VAT, or other simple taxes.

If someone is capable of closing the books, cost accounting, general ledger, taxes, and reporting and making under $200 have them call me as there well under paid.  That is the type of work an accountant does. 

[Shadow]

Mies, I base it on working with Ernst Young, KPMG, and Deloitte in Ukraine which are accounting services for hundreds of companies within Ukraine, auditing, and tax professionals.  A bookkeeper and an accountant are very different.  Even within accounting an accounting clerk is different than an accountant.  I have  access to all the salary guides for most countries in the World for any position or functional area.  90% of the people who call themselves accountants in Ukraine are clerks or bookkeepers. I would pay a bookkeeper in Ukraine with a 4 year university degree equivalent less than $200 as a bookkeeper is really someone who is 15 years old could do.  Do not need a college education or highschool education to do work in accounts payable, accounts receivable, customs, duties, VAT, or other simple taxes.

If someone is capable of closing the books, cost accounting, general ledger, taxes, and reporting and making under $200 have them call me as there well under paid.  That is the type of work an accountant does. 

Kievster, translation is a great thing.
The term accountant is in many contries protected for a certain level of study and knowledge. However in many other countried a bookkeeper or accountant clerk can legally call themselves accountant. Its up to people to find out what level and experience there is.

[kievstar]

When it come to titles you can use any title you want.  Many times I have called people in India Chief Financial Officers when in reality they were only doing general ledger work and reported to a accounting manager.  Why?  they liked the business cards with a fancy title working for an American company and would not jump for more money.  Titles really mean nothing - for example banks call almost everybody vice presidents where as some fortune 100 companies with more than 200,000 employees have less than 20 VP's and higher in entire company.  You go to a bank and you may find several thousand VP's and above but in reality probably less than 10 by work performed. 

My wife likes my current job title however I explained to her that I really had a higher position a couple of companies ago by reporting directly to the Chairman of the Board however my current title sounds more prestigious.  I took less money to work less and travel less for family but got a nice title as energy companies like banks tend to exaggerate titles.  Helps in the negotiations with the big players like Gazprom, Chevron, etc as they want to deal with people they think are higher in the company.

My last post in this thread.