Life Changes...Part Deux

[Boethius]

It is bizarre to you, mies?  It sounds like a hundred stories I heard in Kyiv back in the bad old days of propiskas.  All, except for the absent father/"Interpol agent".

The stories all had the same inevitable ending.

[ECOCKS]

OH PLEASE!!
Don't encourage him to "chase" any more children young Russian girls. :evil:

GOB

[erudite]

I have been wearing my rubber galoshes while reading this thread but I have found it is getting so deep I must go and get my hip waders if I continue to read about these exploits and fantasies. Is the OP taking any sort of "medicine" or prescription to have this sort of delusional fantasy, is he from the Ozarks or Applachians or will he write a bestseller along the lines of "Lolita"?

[JohnDearGreen]

... is he from the Ozarks or Applachians ...?

Probably not. 
But I am. 
And I've lived in the Appalachians also.

[felix8787]

Yo, Yo, Yo, dog. Wat up with all the haters out there? Why U dissing me?

Dissing? Who's dissing? This is far from dissing. But then again, it was there for the making.

If I talked immature, I'd never catch a quality woman too.

Hmm...let me ask my Fiancée, but I digress, your and my opinion differs on quality woman. I don't chase after teenies.

Wake up and smell the coffee Felix.

What for? That's kinda dumb don't you think? I would just rather drink it. I like mine with lots of cream and sugar. And what about you?

I can take you young guys to school

 

how come you didn't finish this saying with "and show you how many teenagers I can pick up!"

Billy billy billy, I don't think that you like my poke at you. And billy.... it's not dog, it's DAWG. Get your ebonics right! Not that you would know anything about it.

[erudite]

Probably not. 
But I am. 
And I've lived in the Appalachians also.

But you have not robbed a cradle for a bride have you?

[mies]

It is bizarre to you, mies?  It sounds like a hundred stories I heard in Kyiv back in the bad old days of propiskas.  All, except for the absent father/"Interpol agent".

The stories all had the same inevitable ending.

the father "Interpol" agent is one thing.
A mother, who works in Germany and in Lybia as a nurse (wouldn't she be required to have some sort of special certification or permit to be performing medical services in Germany?) has income and opportunities above ukrainian average. If she cares for her daughter enough to teach her 5 languages, and yet - buys her daughter the "stripper type" shoes, accompanied by a miniskirt, and gives her blessing for 17yo to go out and get married with a guy in his 40s - that is what is more than just bizarre. I do not think that BillyB is only airing his ideas about russian women and family roles on this board. I believe he mentioned at least some of them to A and her mom. The fact that mom pays for daughter education in Europe, or pays for her education in general, and daughter is supposedly doing good in it, plus, they both have access to men in Europe when they travel, and still mom OKs a man like Billy courting her daughter - this is the part which is bizarre. Someone is lying here.

I could see as possible mom who works abroad and earns OK by Ukrainian standards - gives her blessing to 18yo for marrying the older guy IF the girl is madly in love, and the guy is supernice and sweet and handsome and well-off and loves daughter.
I see as possible a mom and daughter who do not have education nor sufficient income designing a plot to move to USA, *suffer* for a "good cause" few years, and then "get a life they deserve" or trade up.
I do not think that the cross between these two options is probable.
And when it is neither first, nor the second, then the only natural question is WHY? Why mom needs her daughter so desperately to get to USA by any means?

My friend's mom works in Portugal, illegally, for over a decade by now. She already has local/Portuguese *partner*, but i don't know if they are married or not. She went to work to Portugal as a housekeeper and to look after old and disabled people (close approximation to nurse, only working illegally) because she was from a small village, her ex-husband attempted her murder while drunk and went to jail for it, and she wanted her son to get a decent education and good life. So she went to Europe, and never comes back - only sends money to her son. He got a law degree, and now works for state. His mom eventually saved up money to buy him 1-bedroom apartment in Kyiv. She does not want to come back now, she feels her home is in Portugal.

In the Western Ukraine many people go to work in Europe, stay there for many years, and send money home so that their children could have a better life, a home, start a new family, get an education. I know many stories when mother or father would lavish their kids with hard-earned money only to see them happy, to marry whom they fancy, and to get a good boost early in adult life. I have never seen the woman who can earn money herself, but wants her daughter to go into such arrangement as the one A is into.

Billy may think that he is the only "stable and serious man" but we all know that he isn't the only one, he definitely also isn't the youngest one or the most handsome one of all "stable and serious" men, not the nicest towards women, not the one with best manners either. Mom is not described as someone desperately in need of a "western savior", the daughter is super pretty, and is described as very smart. Billy also says this isn't love, but a "rational choice to be with stable and mature man" on girl's part. Girl doesn't look in love with Billy on photos. So i'm curious: where is the twist?    

The way how Billy stresses that he dated OLDER women, who were in fact merely closer to his own age, and not 25 years older than him, is quite amusing. Maybe he read too many stories about Russian oligarchs for whom any female past 22yo is OLD, and absorbed their morals and standards... without absorbing their means. I don't really know what's going on with Billy's fixation on the word "OLDER" women.

[mies]

The plot thickens . Maybe she's a perspective new FSB/GRU mole, now that Anna Chapman has been exposed and is no longer operative .

exactly! As one of my professors used to say "and that explains that" 

[Boethius]

I see as possible a mom and daughter who do not have education nor sufficient income designing a plot to move to USA, *suffer* for a "good cause" few years, and then "get a life they deserve" or trade up.

That, my dear mies, is the typical "propiska" story that I saw time and again.  A village girl chases a boy from Kyiv, he is madly in love, they marry, and as soon as she has her permanent resident stamp, he is history, while she looks to trade up to a "professor" or "officer".  Of course, the latter dream never becomes a reality.  

My husband was present when one such haidyuka announced, after 2 1/2 years of marriage, that she was leaving her husband (his acquaintance), and was packing.  He was devastated, and crying.  He asked her why.  She turned very cold.  She took everything, including his belongings, and when he protested, she turned to him and said, in an ice cold voice "I earned it."  My husband knew from the beginning that she was bad news, but he said he had never seen such cold evil eyes in his life.  He said the friend never recovered, and never remarried.

He had another friend who was obsessed with a girl from Kherson who was trying to land a Kyiv husband and propiska.  My husband told the friend she was bad news, the friend told her, and he was enemy to them both.  They married, the friend would not give her a propiska, but, after the birth of their child, he relented.  Within a week, she was causing trouble, trying to get him evicted from his apartment (he had his own apartment, which was extremely unusual at the time).  She didn't care about him, her daughter, or anyone else. The only thing that saved him was a powerful relative, who threatened "nevistka". I met this friend shortly after his divorce, and he was a very destroyed soul.  Everything my husband had told him would occur did.  He too, was not married at the time the USSR collapsed, though he did sleep around a lot.  He refused to marry his last girlfriend when he discovered she was a member of party.  I lost track of his life, though I know he still lives in the same apartment.

In the Western Ukraine many people go to work in Europe, stay there for many years, and send money home so that their children could have a better life, a home, start a new family, get an education. I know many stories when mother or father would lavish their kids with hard-earned money only to see them happy, to marry whom they fancy, and to get a good boost early in adult life. I have never seen the woman who can earn money herself, but wants her daughter to go into such arrangement as the one A is into.

Very true.  Some also come work in Canada illegally, with the help of the Ukrainian diaspora, especially in Toronto.  And many abandon their children for years.  Lots of those kids move, and end up on the streets of Kyiv or Odessa.

[mies]

Yes, indeed another typical "propiska hunters" story. But there are always two sides of it. For every one victim of a "hunter" there are x10+ women who are treated as "second rate humans" because they didn't have the proper propiska in the capital. And some also marry and live happy together. My uncle married general's daughter in Kyiv, father-in-law gave enormous boost to his career. My uncle truly loves his wife, even though the rest of our family, including his mom (my grandma), believe that this wife with Kyiv propiska is ugly and bitchy, always was, and is becoming more so as she ages.

[Daveman]

Just for the flow of information, how about defining the transliterations for those who aren't so familiar with the language and situations?
"propiska", "nevistka", "oligarch", etc..  so the Ignorant among us can lessen that burden...  

[Boethius]

Yeah, I know those stories too.  Residents who treated their village spouse like a lesser human, because they could.  I also knew a lot of the women who swept the streets, markets and parks in downtown Kyiv, so that they could earn a propiska.  They all loved my husband because he doesn't drink, and he used to tease them. My husband saw much uglier things - a pretty young girl doesn't have her residency, is stopped by the police, and is threatened - have sex with three of them, or be sent back to the village with a stamp so she could never return.  That story was pretty common.

ETA - I think everyone knows what an oligarch is.  Nevistka - daughter in law.  But in addition to its normal meaning, it's used in a certain way in Ukrainian, lots of literature on the "poor nevistka".  Propiska - Certain Soviet cities were closed.  You couldn't get an apartment, or legally live or work in them, without a stamp.  That wasn't always easy to do.  But one way to do so was to marry a resident.

[Daveman]

Yeah, I know those stories too.  Residents who treated their village spouse like a lesser human, because they could.  I also knew a lot of the women who swept the streets, markets and parks in downtown Kyiv, so that they could earn a propiska.  My husband saw much uglier things - a pretty young girl doesn't have her residency, is stopped by the police, and was threatened - have sex with three of them, or be sent back to the village with a stamp so she could never return.  That story was pretty common.

ETA - I think everyone knows what an oligarch is.  Nevistka - daughter in law.  But it's used in a certain way in Ukrainian, lots of literature on the "poor" DIL.  Propiska - Certain Soviet cities were closed.  You couldn't get an apartment, or legally live or work in them, without a stamp.  That wasn't always easy to do.  But one way to do so was to marry a resident.

Thanks, B
Yes, we understand the word "oligarch", but as it applies to the west from our perspective.. there may (or may not) be differences of nuance as the word is applied to the situations in the east?  

[mies]

the word oligarch exists in English (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=oligarch)
In russian case - it is used to refer to one of quite many people who own means of production and millions or billions of dollars.

Nevistka - daughter in law
Propiska - registration in a specific city, town or village. It is reflected in the local/national passport, has to be maintained all the times, and if changed - changes are reflected in the passport. During USSR - the person was supposed to live at the address of his/her registration. Nowadays, the person may live anywhere else, especially if she/he rents the apartment, but without this registration - he cannot get a foreign passport, or in some cases - cannot get work in the specific city. The latter rule was strictly enforced during the USSR times. Now it mostly lost the effect. The medical assistance/healthcare is also attached to registration, and is normally provided only in a specific hospital. For example, when I tried to get medical attention while visiting another city, personnel of polyclinic refused me in service and told me I should direct my requests to the hospital which is associated with my registration city/district. Because of this, it is sometimes believed it is better to call medical emergency number because they will come over and will not check your registration, but if the person walks into the closest polyclinic or hospital while he/she doesn't have local registration - chances are he will not get helped. School enrollment for children might have been also connected to registration, but I do not remember information about it.
The system of registration was created in USSR to keep farmers in villages, and disable them from relocating to towns/cities. It also greatly limited labor migration from smaller to larger cities, and allowed the state to have control over labor force. For anyone from a small city the only two ways to get registration in a large city and stay there, get prospects for better life - were to marry a person with "desired registration" or to enroll as a blue-collar worker at a factory and get a room (or a bed) in the factory-owned dormitory. I think there were also some horror stories that women were not allowed to live in these dormitories with kids, and local "urban boys" didn't want to marry the lower class women. These girls were good enough only for *snip*ing around with. Some got lucky and eventually did marry local guys. Some were evicted when they got pregnant, and as such - lost their registration, and job. I cannot speak of percentages, or how common these stories were. But life was tough for them.

[chivo]

I don't like to talk about myself       

Well, there goes all your credibility.

Also one RW doctor I dated(not mom) said she seen a lot of penises in her line of work and I have nothing to be ashamed about.

You know as far as i'm concerned you can date whomever you want as long as both parties are ok with it, but really, how insecure does one have to be to make a comment like this? Not factoring in all the other comments along this line. For all the confidence you try to exhibit, don't you ever consider what your words convey? Come on now.

[Kuna]

Quote from: BillyB on Yesterday at 17:38:33
Also one RW doctor I dated(not mom) said she seen a lot of penises in her line of work and I have nothing to be ashamed about.

Billy,

She was trying not to hurt your feelings....  obviously!   


I have a serious question... at what point did you realise you were a "Real" man...  you know... a man's man... The king of the crop - the man who women desire... the man who knows how to keep his women in line... the man who is an obvious expert at giving women sexual pleasure - in ways they've probably never even fantasised about before...  the man who can seduce a 17 yr old just as easily as he can seduce a woman of his old age... a man who knows RW/UW better than all others,  including RW and UW...

Was it before you married your previous UW??? During that time?  After that marriage failed?  Was it when you were with your previous fiance??? Was it when she felt unable to marry you and come to the states? When was it that you realised you weren'teven "the first amongst equals"...  when you you realise you were the one and only... the chosen one?

[JohnDearGreen]

But you have not robbed a cradle for a bride have you?

That was your plan, not mine.

My age is 57 and ... they must be under 44 over 30...

A 57 year old looking for a 31 year old.  That is a bigger age gap than Billy...

[erudite]

That was your plan, not mine.
A 57 year old looking for a 31 year old.  That is a bigger age gap than Billy...

Have I attacked you JohnDearGreen? I don't think so. I made reference to child brides which were common among "mountain folk" at one time.

FYI there is a "world of difference" between a woman 18 and 30, especially if she has a child or two. The woman I am going to marry this summer is no child bride by any means, she is not 31, her father is not an Interpol Officer and we never met in some exotic location with a mother as relationship coach and counselor in tow. I really have no need to defend my situation or choices to you since I am me and you are you.

You missed my point in my original posting anyway. That is not uncommon on this forum given the depth and perception grasp of some posters.

Besides this thread is about someone else with delusional dreams and exhibits all the common cliches associated with WM seeking younger FSU woman far too young for him.  Let's keep the thread on the original subject.  It is entertaining to say the least either as fact or fiction or a combination.

If you have some personal issues you can send me PM. I wish the OP luck but would not trade places with him in any case for love nor money.  

It is as Winston Churchill once remarked to a woman who had castigated him for being drunk, "Yes I am indeed drunk, but you are ugly and tomorrow morning I will wake up and I will be me, you will still be ugly".  Tomorrow I will be me and you will be you.

[GQBlues]

And billy.... it's not dog, it's DAWG. Get your ebonics right! Not that you would know anything about it.

 

I first saw that post and I thought it was pretty funny. The first thing that came to mind was....

!! WatUP World! I'm . Based from the fah-iiist !!

"..U tink igots da crib by being slow? think agen...I got dis cuz I'm - baaaaaad!... git' freaky, git freaky, freaky like my lady pyramid!"

- sing-song-tym (Slim Chin will skool yah) -

"Fast Don't lie: F-A-S-T  D-U-N-T  L-I-E - EEEEEE!"
 
TFF This thread is too much. What a love story! It's never really having to say you're sorry - never at any point.

LOL.

[TomT]

If I didn't know better, I'd swear that this thread is a parody. Take it for what it's worth, Billy: don't even THINK about inviting your girl to join RWD.

[GoodOlBoy]

Billy: don't even THINK about inviting your girl to join RWD.

I don't know the minimum age requirements for RWD, BB may have to check with Dan on this one.

GOB

[ECOCKS]

If I didn't know better, I'd swear that this thread is a parody. Take it for what it's worth, Billy: don't even THINK about inviting your girl to join RWD.

I think it would be fantastic to have her join in on this conversation.

It would take this thread to the next level.

Then maybe he could get Mom and Papa to join in subsequent seasons......

[Kuna]

I think it would be fantastic to have her join in on this conversation.

It would take this thread to the next level.

Then maybe he could get Mom and Papa to join in subsequent seasons......

Excellent idea...and as Billy is "Da Man"... and has it all under control he should welcome his new family to see how strong and respected he is amongst his peers.

Billy,  when can we expect to see A, Mama and Papa's arrival?

[felix8787]

I first saw that post and I thought it was pretty funny. The first thing that came to mind was....

!! WatUP World! I'm . Based from the fah-iiist !!

"..U tink igots da crib by being slow? think agen...I got dis cuz I'm - baaaaaad!... git' freaky, git freaky, freaky like my lady pyramid!"

- sing-song-tym (Slim Chin will skool yah) -

"Fast Don't lie: F-A-S-T  D-U-N-T  L-I-E - EEEEEE!"
 
TFF This thread is too much. What a love story! It's never really having to say you're sorry - never at any point.

LOL.

Glad I am made someone laugh today!! Your welcome GQ! 

[Nat]

Yeah, I know those stories too.  Residents who treated their village spouse like a lesser human, because they could.  I also knew a lot of the women who swept the streets, markets and parks in downtown Kyiv, so that they could earn a propiska.

Boethius, I'm not going to argue with your point of view about so called gold diggers - you have a point here. At all times there was such type of girls (and boys), who are called gold diggers, who would marry somebody in order then to get a part of an apartment in Kiev or a part of money of their husband, US residence or something like that. But all the information about this "propiska" digging sounds somehow weird.
First of all, propiska - or, for our out-of-topic-members - registered place of living, can be in ANY city of Ukraine, and at the same time you can live in another place. If you don't have propiska - it dosen't mean you can't live in Kiev - may be you mix it up with Moscow.
Second, people don't work to earn propiska. Because they don't need it and they can't earn it. In Soviet times, when there was no private property, and all the flats were "given" by the government, people swept streets, because janitors were given separate flats to live in, and other jobs were mostly given rooms in dorms. Nowadays, when a person can rent a flat, and janitors aren't given anything, it's not actual.
So you point is actually reasonable and understandable, but you don't get the "propiska" matter quite right, so the examples sound weird for an inhabitant of Ukraine

BillyB - the story becomes somewhat stretched up. I used to read it with a great interest, but for the past month or even longer your plot has been dawdling at one place. It's getting kinda boring - each post is about another phone call. The story definitely needs some fresh info.