My Stupid WOVO trip to FSU

[knighta]

-Lurking for about a year on RWD without posting a single message is a VERY difficult thing to do, especially when you are planning a trip yourself.

I lurked 1.5 years before my first post and I come to this website a few times each day.  My main reasons for the lurking and almost never posting is to gain advice from others experiences.   Throughout these 1.5 years I have made one trip and planned for three more but unfortunately I have had to delay them.  Also, I have yet to experience a lot of the things a lot of the others have and they could explain it in a much better way than I ever could.  

[Gator]

Challenging all disbelieving sleuths.  The clues:

1.  StupidGuy writes like an American.

2.  He is supposedly housed in Ukraine.

3.  If  he fabricated the story, he really is clever and creative, and he is experienced with meetings between AM and RW.

4.  One member in the past has gone to great length to contrive a story just to get a reaction, not to sell anything nor to create strife, just to have a good laugh.  Anyone remember Scott Jay?  In contrast, this story doesn't have that "good laugh" punchline.

5.  SG probably has a lot of time on his hand or writes as a vocation.

6.  SG alerted us a few days ago that he would publish a trip report.

7.  SG was last active after Reply #16.

I look forward to your analysis.  Until then I am accepting SG's story. Whether true or embellished, it matters little to me because it is an interesting and insightful story as I/O correctly states.  

[Gator]

If StupidGuy had merely added a photo of Natalia with her surname, the disbelievers would no longer be disbelieving and instead would be screaming "Foul" and "Bloody Murder." :ohbrother:

[Seeker]

If StupidGuy had merely added a photo of Natalia with her surname, the disbelievers would no longer be disbelieving and instead would be screaming "Foul" and "Bloody Murder." :ohbrother:

For me it is not believing or disbelieving.  The writing style was good, and the story interesting.  But it was more like reading a novel, not a trip report.  Does that make sense?  It was a story being told, not a memory being recalled and written down.

Or maybe he is just a better writer than the rest of us.   

[I/O]

"Bloody Murder."

Stanza 6 Gator: http://www.wallisandmatilda.com.au/man-from-ironbark.shtml

[Gator]

Stanza 6 Gator: http://www.wallisandmatilda.com.au/man-from-ironbark.shtml

Funny, and actually relevant.

Do you sing such ballads?  Surley you never miss the opportunity to join in and sing Waltzing Matilda as in one of my favorite old flicks, On the Beach.

[GQBlues]

Interesting thread.

I had a similar thing happened to me and I was a WMVM. Although I didn't have the same negative experience the OP had.

What lurkers and newbies need to understand, true or not, VO / VM, etc...all these really matter very little anymore. The reality in FSU dating (MOB) these days is, where once passport, then money reigned supreme, real and true Romeo is simply the new sexy these days. Period.

[Faux Pas]

For me it is not believing or disbelieving.  The writing style was good, and the story interesting.  But it was more like reading a novel, not a trip report.  Does that make sense?  It was a story being told, not a memory being recalled and written down.

Or maybe he is just a better writer than the rest of us.   

Not really.

I believed it. I still do. Actually, IMHO he can't write for pooh and as a storyteller he'd have much to learn. It was more like an off the cuff, highlights to memory synopsis. I saw nothing that would lead me to believe it wasn't true

[Rutherford]

Not trying to make SG look smart , but what does 
WOVO and WMVM  mean ??

Thx
RR
I'll check back later for answers

[Shostakovich]

Shosty here with a few idle moments, so I thought I'd do something else on this site except attempt to convert you all to my music-religion.  I just love that name: StupidGuy.  Not a bad report either - I suppose that the lust to step up ones game, perhaps inappropriately, with a lady can put you in a pickle with the trips.  What is interesting also, and telling, is the follow on debate: if StupidGuy has deceived the experienced members of the RWD, I suppose it makes him, in a sense, smarter than all of you.  That's the first fear for those who undertake this adventure - getting scammed and into one of those pickles.  One develops a skeptical attitude and eventually it transfers to all other concerns. Eventually it can perhaps poison the pond in communications with the ladies as well as I am certain they get sick of the doubt all the time.  It can become an obsession, and like all obsessions, it's rather absurd.  There is some good advice and information here, but, at the same time it seems to me most of the comedy of errors derives from the lack of accurate self-assessment.  "Stripes for the back of fools" -- it's the only way most people learn. 

I thought SGs post to be plausible enough, but, at the end of the day if it turned out otherwise, I'd be OK about that too, as I don't know what most of this has to do with me.  In any event, it seems there are better things to do than to over-analyze his post, such as listening to this Chopin Waltz:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C-oiN_KDD0[/youtube]

The post was interesting as was some of the initial advice valuable.  Trust but verify - It's good advice.  But you can only wring so much juice from a stone.  After a point, why care?   
       

[I/O]

Not trying to make SG look smart , but what does 
WOVO and WMVM  mean ??

Thx
RR
I'll check back later for answers

Write One Visit One and Write Many Visit Many

[Daveman]

Go Directly To Western Union:
Do Not Pass Go; Do Not Collect $200

but rather immediately send her $600 for French lessons... that'll clear up everything.  :evil:

[Mir]

We exchanged maybe a hundred emails over a couple of months and talked on the phone (I thought) about 15 times.  She told me in emails that she was studying French, but her (I thought) English was near perfect on the phone.

Well I am sure this should be enough to form a friendship, the only problem is that he developed if with the married sister

[Ade]

Whether this TR is real not is besides the point, what isn't is that;

1) Stupid Bloke tries to use it as proof that a VO methodology is doomed to failure and you'd be a stupid guy to try it; really, his entire post seems engineered to try to make that point. Which is just silly of course, as many of us are proof positive that not only can it work but it can work very well; we also all know that most women would prefer a VO approach. Yeah, and we all know that a WM approach can work too, gee wiz.

2) Even though he claims to have read this here forum for a year he still wasn't bright enough to have reasonable alternative options in place; if he couldn't even manage that then I wouldn't rate his odds of navigating the international dating scene very highly no matter which method he used.

3) He's dumb enough to think that trying to build an international relationship with only 2 weeks of face time per year is a good idea.

I'm not sure if this TR is good for anything other than to highlight that some people really aren't up to the challenge and they aren't at all grounded in reality.

[Jack]

   I'm not sure if this TR is good for anything other than to highlight that some people really aren't up to the challenge and they aren't at all grounded in reality. 

I think the trip report is a good example of what could, and does, happen often.

  Even though he claims to have read this here forum for a year he still wasn't bright enough to have reasonable alternative options in place;

Unfortunately most wovo do not have a back-up plan.  Maybe this trip will help at least one future traveler to have such. If so, this trip report served a good purpose.

  He's dumb enough to think that trying to build an international relationship with only 2 weeks of face time per year is a good idea.

 

ding-ding-ding,...late breaking news here SJ. Most American blue collar workers have exactly this, two weeks a year vacation.  Even more reason to develop a good wmvm game plan.

    Stupid Bloke tries to use it as proof that a VO methodology is doomed to failure and you'd be a stupid guy to try it; really, his entire post seems engineered to try to make that point. Which is just silly of course, as many of us are proof positive that not only can it work but it can work very well; we also all know that most women would prefer a VO approach. Yeah, and we all know that a WM approach can work too, gee wiz. 

Even a broken clock is correct once a day.

Although there are many cases where wovo has worked, there are many more cases where it has failed miserably.   

80% of all the guys I know who started out wovo changed to wmvm after the first or second failed attempt. On the other hand I never had a client or friend who started out wmvm who changed to wovo until after he found his woman.

[Ade]

Although there are many cases where wovo has worked, there are many more cases where it has failed miserably.   

80% of all the guys I know who started out wovo changed to wmvm after the first or second failed attempt. On the other hand I never had a client or friend who started out wmvm who changed to wovo until after he found his woman.

Yes, yes, and how many WM trips fail miserably?  Both methods can work, both can fail, it's about doing either properly which many don't do.

[I/O]

Jack: Honestly I thought by now you'd have learned there is no way to win these stupid p!ssing matches over VO vs VM. Furthermore, some of your argument, coming from your length of experience could be much better formed than "trust me, I know" type offerings..............

Unfortunately most wovo do not have a back-up plan.

Are you sure about that or is this a biased guess?

ding-ding-ding,...late breaking news here SJ. Most American blue collar workers have exactly this, two weeks a year vacation.  Even more reason to develop a good wmvm game plan.

Nope, even more reason to stay home. Sorry Jack but I am with SJ at this minor juncture. VM is not the answer to lack of available time. At the end of the day, 2 weeks per year, even if he does single her out on the first VM trip would mean probably 3 years to get 6 weeks face time with her before doing the good ol' K-1 or God forbid he is at the K-3 stage. Blue collar (Generally speaking although the chips are shifting a little in the modern world) and 2 weeks vacation time per year are very good reasons NOT to follow this pursuit. I don't see too many prepared to wait 2 or 3 years to develop a relationship.

Although there are many cases where wovo has worked, there are many more cases where it has failed miserably.

Do we have any independent numbers to verify this?

On the other hand I never had a client or friend who started out wmvm who changed to wovo until after he found his woman.

Obviously we'll never be friends and that's OK but call me a "known" if you wish. Did VO, did VM and then some, several times and had a ball but in the end I recognised the reality of where the women I liked to associate with sat on this issue. From there on in it became an annual (sometimes more often) trip to meet someone if I chose and do my own thing if it didn't amount to anything (which at times it didn't).

SJ: We really DO get you are a VO guy as am I but it isn't, whether we would like to believe so or not, the only way. Just thought I'd mention that.

[Gator]

I have all the time in the world to meet RW and I believe VM is best for me.  I will not debate the merits of either approach.  Instead, I will attempt to make an analysis of what is critical in a VO encounter.

Has everyone read Muckraker's VO Trip Report?  If not, I recommend it. 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1976.0

From Muck's initial post:

.....She had written to me six months earlier via Anastasiaweb [Muck later discovered that the agency composed and sent the letter, not her].....and we had been corresponding and speaking on the telephone consistently since that time (she speaks English).......She was the first and only Russian girl I had ever corresponded with, let alone gone to meet.....

In addition, when Muck arrived he had not slept in 50 hours!

Sounds like a potential disaster, yes?  To the contrary.  Read the story.   

When you read Muck's T/R you will understand that the compelling theme of a WOVO is the fact that it is the most romantic approach.   Using the term "honorable" as did StupidGuy is lacking IMO.  It sounds more like a shotgun wedding than a result of destiny.

It is apparent that Muck and his RW during their protracted communication prior to meeting had developed a friendship due in part to their kindred personalities, shared values, etc.  The same is said by Blues Fairy and I/O. 

So if one does go VO, becoming friends first seems to be an imperative step.  Making 100 phone calls means only that you made 100 phone calls.  The substance of those calls is everything.  Maybe a failure to do this is the source of most VO failures.

No, I have not converted to VO.  Yet I am open-minded enough to recognize its merits.

[Ade]

So if one does go VO, becoming friends first seems to be an imperative step.  Making 100 phone calls means only that you made 100 phone calls.  The substance of those calls is everything.  Maybe a failure to do this is the source of most VO failures.

No, I have not converted to VO.  Yet I am open-minded enough to recognize its merits.

Bingo. The initial investment towards an individual FSUW in a proper wovo approach is many times that of wmvm. Of course there has to be a pre-selection process and a willingness to discard any emotional and time investments if things don't click along the way - something some guys have problems doing I think. And then there's the first visit; if a vo guy can't honestly say that even if there's no physical chemistry it won't be a wasted trip, he probably shouldn't be going. When I met my wife I knew there was risk that we wouldn't end up a couple but I also knew we would still be friends and enjoy a week of sightseeing together no matter what. If someone can't swallow the cost and time of false starts they shouldn't even consider international dating.

Any typos blame on my iphone.   

[remiel6]

first, I don't know if its made up, I'm not that smart. Second, other than her teeth and strange  body shapes the whole story lacks specifics, which is a problem. I mean this is his first trip to the Ukraine and he mentions none of the things you will find from other TR's about airports, and reading all the signs in Russian and the overall city.

lastly VO is amazingly risky. I do not think this is an approach for everyone, but I caution both WOVO and WMVM to remember that they are not buying a car, and they are not shopping for spouses. If a person has a strong connection that is based on something more that just his fantasy of a smoking hot girl in his lap then VO is immensely romantic, but as I wrote in my own trip report perhaps it may be best labeled "Don't try this at home."

[Turboguy]

Nope, even more reason to stay home. Sorry Jack but I am with SJ at this minor juncture. VM is not the answer to lack of available time. At the end of the day, 2 weeks per year, even if he does single her out on the first VM trip would mean probably 3 years to get 6 weeks face time with her before doing the good ol' K-1

I don't see too many prepared to wait 2 or 3 years to develop a relationship.

Yes, if he only has two weeks vacation time it would take him 2 or 3 years to develop a relationship.  However if his first lady doesn't work out and he has to make 2 or 3 more trips to visit one woman to find the right one then we are looking at 6-8 years to develop a relationship.  You are saying that is better?

Making that first trip to spend 5 days with three ladies could cut 3 years or more off the process.

To me someone who makes a WOVO to meet his first woman and it works is a lucky son of a gun.  I made a lot of trips to visit one and a lot of trips to visit many.  Quite often a back up plan wasn't practical and I spent a lot of days sightseeing that may have been interesting but sure didn't get me closer to my goal.

Bingo. The initial investment towards an individual FSUW in a proper wovo approach is many times that of wmvm.

 

I am not sure I totally agree with this but if there is more of an initial investment there is also a lot more disappointment and frustration when it doesn't work out.  I always felt worse when I came back from a failed VO than when I came back from a failed VM.  Often I had a lot of emotional and time investment in the ones I met on trips where I was meeting more than one.  Some of those ladies I had written for a long time and felt very close to.

[kievstar]

People do not know if something is not going to work until the face to face meeting takes place.  If you have the vacation time and money to travel I suggest write none and visit every month on your own or on a tour.  I will take this over any other method and it will win the majority of the time and have the longer marriages.  But once you meet the right women do not jump to another.  Stop seeing anymore women when you meet the right one.  You know when you meet the right one first date.  Many times men juggle women and end up marrying one that really is not what there looking for and they settle.  Settling does not always work longterm.

If you live in the USA and can visit one time a year it is going to make good reading for this board as 2 things are likely to happen - 1. trainwreck 2. messy divorce.  However even if you get 2 weeks of vacation a year you can take advantage of the extended holiday periods and can easily make 4 trips a year which maybe 4-6 days each trip or .  Need to make sacrifices.  Is work more important or your personal life.  If you have to think about that, than your not ready for an overseas relationship.

Its a well known fact Ukraine women marry men from Ukraine 1st highest number, FSU 2nd, Europe 3rd.  Distance.  Listen only to American men on this board when they talk about WOVO or WMVM if your American.  Men in Europe have it easy. 

[GregfromGa]

Kievstar is right. It is so much easier for men in Europe. Having only 2 weeks for vacation a year is really pushing it. It would take a lot of commitment and patience in order to make that work but like KievStar said it can be done with extended holidays. Men in Europe are not even playing ball in the same ballpark when it comes to traveling to Ukraine. I think guys in the USA have it better than Australia as well.

[Faux Pas]

Yes, if he only has two weeks vacation time it would take him 2 or 3 years to develop a relationship.  However if his first lady doesn't work out and he has to make 2 or 3 more trips to visit one woman to find the right one then we are looking at 6-8 years to develop a relationship.  You are saying that is better

It would seem what happens all to often in these scenarios Turbo is guys with limited vacation time and/or funds tend to "lean" into OWW situations. I suspect the reason is, the first trip went so well these guys get libido driven and want her as soon as possible. Many times at the risk of not knowing her at all.

To me someone who makes a WOVO to meet his first woman and it works is a lucky son of a gun.  I made a lot of trips to visit one and a lot of trips to visit many.  Quite often a back up plan wasn't practical and I spent a lot of days sightseeing that may have been interesting but sure didn't get me closer to my goal.

I was/am that lucky son of a gun and proof that it can be done. The thing here is with a WOVO, fate is a whore and will sell you down the river if you give it an opportunity. My point there is, to a large degree we make our own luck. Don't expect that fate has or will happen and we'll all live happily ever after. Others mention earlier in this thread or another about developing the friendship first. A very important and vital ingredient in any relationship IMO. Friendships can be developed and fostered before a face to face ever takes place. It helps the couple to actually get to know each other as people and gives them a conduit to develop a romantic relationship later if it is to happen. Getting to know each other not as possible mates but friends first is making your own luck.
   

[Faux Pas]

But once you meet the right women do not jump to another.  Stop seeing anymore women when you meet the right one.  You know when you meet the right one first date.  Many times men juggle women and end up marrying one that really is not what there looking for and they settle.  Settling does not always work longterm.

Excellent point. Thats one that seems to fly over my head every time I read about it. Guys that do the WMVM get dead set on meeting 15-20 women. Almost a quantity over quality priority. I am not opposed to WMVM. One should do what ever they are most comfortable with but, once you meet a woman and the early sparks are there, why continue moving on to meet other women? I venture to guess a great many men lost a many great quality women trying to feed some imaginary hunger to meet other women just for the numbers. Never makes any sense to me  :noidea: