Free Press in Russia

[tim 360]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/world/europe/18impunity.html?th&emc=th


a guy could get killed

[Faux Pas]

Quite a few have been killed. Frustrating that NYT would stop only at the beatings and not mention the deaths

[kievstar]

When you write things that impact others income / family you should expect retaliation.  Russia is not a country of free speech. 

[Faux Pas]

When you write things that impact others income / family you should expect retaliation.  Russia is not a country of free speech. 

What is this you are saying? They should not write about the corruption or they got what they deserve? Russia is a country of free speech. Just not free of retribution.

[hemingway]

What is this you are saying? They should not write about the corruption or they got what they deserve? Russia is a country of free speech. Just not free of retribution.

That sounds like something Rush Limbaugh would say. 

[Shadow]

Nothing is as it seems, and that includes such articles about journalists who can either not tell anything or will not tell exactly how things went down.

One thing is for sure. If someone warns you in Russia, take it serious.

[Faux Pas]

That sounds like something Rush Limbaugh would say. 

How would you know? 

[kievstar]

What I wrote is people are aware what happens in Russia when you attack people you should not.  It should be no surprise to people as journalists have been under this treatment for 10 plus years.  People who do not like it don't live there or speak up but expect the consequences.

USA has just as much corruption with lobbyists and politicians but the press stays away from it the USA.  I bet if the press started digging into things they should not people would be taken care of like the Clinton's did. 

[BillyB]

When you write things that impact others income / family you should expect retaliation.  Russia is not a country of free speech. 

This attitude is accepted by some, maybe most Russians. You hurt someone and you should get hurt yourself.

One gal I dated is a far left liberal and feminist. We're still friends believe it or not. She loves Putin and believes Putin will lead Russia in the right direction. She shows no sympathy for murdered journalists who hurts anything or anybody that helps the people and the nation. I'm getting her to understand and accept another point of view that maybe some people and journalists have valid complaints against Putin.

[Faux Pas]

What I wrote is people are aware what happens in Russia when you attack people you should not.  It should be no surprise to people as journalists have been under this treatment for 10 plus years.  People who do not like it don't live there or speak up but expect the consequences.

USA has just as much corruption with lobbyists and politicians but the press stays away from it the USA.  I bet if the press started digging into things they should not people would be taken care of like the Clinton's did. 

Just clarify for me what it is you are stating? By attack, you mean when a reporter informs the readership of corruption, the attacked is the subject of the alledged corruption? Or attack when the reporter gets their teeth kicked out or worse attack for reporting alledged corruption?

Journalist have been under this type persecution since perestroika. It is the result of a rampant extremely corrupt government from the top on down. That's WHY they allow it to happen and make no effort to stop it. The fact that people are aware of it is of no consequence. The people that live there have no choice, either stand up to it or be submissive to it. Over 200 journalist have been murdered inside Russia since Yeltsin.

You seem a bit flippant about it because "that's just the way it is" almost to the point of blaming the victims. Pre-perestroika it didn't occur because the same corrupt government didn't permit free speech at that time.

My statement was directed at the NYT's obvious exclusion of the murdered journalist. Why they did, have far reaching implications into our own government IMO.

The Clintons were amateurish and crude. Bush Jr and the Obama administration are the real pros. The same thing is happening in the US, just at a different level, for now.

[Shadow]

The thing that is often left out is that journalists, like many of their Western counterparts, do not write these articles out of their feeling of duty, but mostly for personal reasons.

As far as the current leadership of Russia, they seem to have taken correct decisions in many cases, and are starting to fight the corruption at all levels, especially those who become greedy.

Contrary to the popular opinion, the FSB will not openly kill people. However the news that modern cars can be hacked easily in to things like braking and engine systems will not be something they wanted to see in public. :evil:

[Blues Fairy]

The thing that is often left out is that journalists, like many of their Western counterparts, do not write these articles out of their feeling of duty, but mostly for personal reasons.

Why would you care about their reasons?  The important thing is, they're brave enough to expose the facts of corruption, even faced with a threat of physical harm, and that's what ultimately counts.  Any person doing the right thing can have a variety of reasons for doing it, including personal ones, but what he does will not become less of a right thing for that.  

As far as the current leadership of Russia, they seem to have taken correct decisions in many cases, and are starting to fight the corruption at all levels, especially those who become greedy.

Do you base this opinion on facts or a general feeling?  What I see is much anti-corruption rhetoric and very little action.  The country is still in a deep hole.  

Only the actions matter, Shadow, not the words and not the thoughts.

[groovlstk]

The thing that is often left out is that journalists, like many of their Western counterparts, do not write these articles out of their feeling of duty, but mostly for personal reasons.

Journalists are professionals too, and for someone to persist in exposing the truth about corruption in Russia (or the US, or anywhere else) takes a commitment much broader than a personal vendetta.

Attributing their motivation to "personal reasons" is offensive, untrue, and a nice way to step up to the precipice of saying they got what they deserved without actually stepping over it. Bravo.

[Faux Pas]

Why would you care about their reasons?  The important thing is, they're brave enough to expose the facts of corruption, even faced with a threat of physical harm, and that's what ultimately counts.  Any person doing the right thing can have a variety of reasons for doing it, including personal ones, but what he does will not become less of a right thing for that.  

Do you base this opinion on facts or a general feeling?  What I see is much anti-corruption rhetoric and very little action.  The country is still in a deep hole.  

Only the actions matter, Shadow, not the words and not the thoughts.

Journalists are professionals too, and for someone to persist in exposing the truth about corruption in Russia (or the US, or anywhere else) takes a commitment much broader than a personal vendetta.

Attributing their motivation to "personal reasons" is offensive, untrue, and a nice way to step up to the precipice of saying they got what they deserved without actually stepping over it. Bravo.

Very well stated by you both.

[innakrug]

This attitude is accepted by some, maybe most Russians. You hurt someone and you should get hurt yourself.

One gal I dated is a far left liberal and feminist. We're still friends believe it or not. She loves Putin and believes Putin will lead Russia in the right direction. She shows no sympathy for murdered journalists who hurts anything or anybody that helps the people and the nation. I'm getting her to understand and accept another point of view that maybe some people and journalists have valid complaints against Putin.

How old is she? 70? Cannot believe, somebody younger can even like him. Very sad

[tim 360]

The thing that is often left out is that journalists, like many of their Western counterparts, do not write these articles out of their feeling of duty, but mostly for personal reasons.

As far as the current leadership of Russia, they seem to have taken correct decisions in many cases, and are starting to fight the corruption at all levels, especially those who become greedy.

Contrary to the popular opinion, the FSB will not openly kill people. However the news that modern cars can be hacked easily in to things like braking and engine systems will not be something they wanted to see in public. :evil:

I sure don't know how you think all the murdered Russian journalists should deserve blame for their own murders?  FSB does not kill anyone?   Oh, come now.  You do know the pedigree, don't you?  KGB. Beria.

Here is a list of murdered Russian journalists.  Did they all deserve it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

[BillyB]

How old is she? 70? Cannot believe, somebody younger can even like him. Very sad

She is in her mid 30's. Strangely enough she greatly cares about humanity as a whole but has little sympathy for those that are against improving Russia as she sees fit. She loves Putin's style as a hardcore leader for the country. I admire her Patriotism but I'm trying to get her to open her eyes that other people who are against Putin and his policies care about Russia just as much or more than her.

[Shadow]

Why would you care about their reasons?  The important thing is, they're brave enough to expose the facts of corruption, even faced with a threat of physical harm, and that's what ultimately counts.  Any person doing the right thing can have a variety of reasons for doing it, including personal ones, but what he does will not become less of a right thing for that.  

Do you base this opinion on facts or a general feeling?  What I see is much anti-corruption rhetoric and very little action.  The country is still in a deep hole.  

Only the actions matter, Shadow, not the words and not the thoughts.

There is a line between bravery and stupidity.
If you are a professional you know where this line is and will manage to get opinions in the open without exposing yourself to danger.

As for actions I know that in the Russian news have been at least 10 cases this year where corrupted officials have been fired and jailed. Of course this will not reach the press outsude Russia, as they are not interested in Russia fighting corruption, but more in the idea that KGB is still running the place.

[Shadow]

Journalists are professionals too, and for someone to persist in exposing the truth about corruption in Russia (or the US, or anywhere else) takes a commitment much broader than a personal vendetta.

Attributing their motivation to "personal reasons" is offensive, untrue, and a nice way to step up to the precipice of saying they got what they deserved without actually stepping over it. Bravo.

Professional journalists do not get beaten or fired over their work.
Like everywhere else, there is a legal system in Russia. If a journalist has evidence of corruption he will know where and how to report it while writing his article.
If he does not have enough evidence to make a report that will stick in the courtroom, it is nothing more than his opinion.

[Shadow]

I sure don't know how you think all the murdered Russian journalists should deserve blame for their own murders?  FSB does not kill anyone?   Oh, come now.  You do know the pedigree, don't you?  KGB. Beria.

Here is a list of murdered Russian journalists.  Did they all deserve it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

I know the pedigree of the FSB, which is why I know that on this list the nmber of people killed by them is very low.
As for the killed journalists, I hope you will make some work and come up with the Russian stories about their killing, what happened and if the homicides has been solved.

[groovlstk]

Professional journalists do not get beaten or fired over their work.

I sincerely hope I misunderstand this statement, because it is utterly false.

[Faux Pas]

For someone who makes so many intelligent remarks, you really are off the cliff of ignorance on this one

There is a line between bravery and stupidity.
If you are a professional you know where this line is and will manage to get opinions in the open without exposing yourself to danger.

Where does duty fall in between bravery and stupidity? Where is the line or is it only professionals know? So all of those killed and beaten were not professionals? Does duty to country have any place in your vocabulary?

As for actions I know that in the Russian news have been at least 10 cases this year where corrupted officials have been fired and jailed. Of course this will not reach the press outsude Russia, as they are not interested in Russia fighting corruption, but more in the idea that KGB is still running the place.

10 cases shadow, of fired and jailed corrupt officials in a country of 150 million where rampant corruption in the business dejour? Journalist are beaten with regularity with over 200 killed inside the country with a common theme, they reported on corruption.

Professional journalists do not get beaten or fired over their work.

Really? How do you come to this conclusion? 200 have met their demise by their own clumsiness? They accidentally fall down 10 flights of stairs or stab themselves in the back 30 times? Injected themselves or drank poison out of ignorance? It's just mere coincidence they they were all journalist and reported on corruption?

Like everywhere else, there is a legal system in Russia. If a journalist has evidence of corruption he will know where and how to report it while writing his article.
If he does not have enough evidence to make a report that will stick in the courtroom, it is nothing more than his opinion.

Where and how does one report corruption to a corrupt court system? You seem to speak from a perch of authority. You must have at some point been exonerated by such a fair and just system. Please do explain.

I know the pedigree of the FSB, which is why I know that on this list the nmber of people killed by them is very low.
As for the killed journalists, I hope you will make some work and come up with the Russian stories about their killing, what happened and if the homicides has been solved.

Please explain to me the "pedigree" of the FSB and how you know the number killed is very low. That should be interesting. The murder of these journalist go unsolved and for the most part uninvestigated. Insisting that a corrupt system investigated itself and you believing the finding is beyond absurd.

Your line of thought here Shadow is very reminiscent of Hitler's SS

[Shadow]

Faux Pas, your line of thought is reminiscent of McCarthy.

Can you please explain me why the FSB would make any journalist an international celebrity by killing or beating them ? This is something that anyone who jumps on the 'Russia is corrupt' bandwagon seems to forget.

Any journalist killed or beaten will get their name splattered all over the internet as proof of Russia's corrupt system. Mr Baketev, the person in the article, was a complete nobody internationally speaking, and would have remained so if he did not get beaten.
If you search the internet you will find nothing else about him than getting beaten up, a story that has been rehashed for over one and half years.

You may consider Russia as a nation of fools and idiots who make people famous by beating and killing them. The truth is that only fools and idiots will follow this line of thinking, and the FSB is operating on a much more high and sophisticated level.

Any death of a journalist is reported in the Russian news, and usually so are the investigations. On occasion months later the results of the trial or arrest are shown.
Yet for foreign media the death is a reason to shout 'No freedom of press' and forget about the case.

Believe what you want, and see ghosts if that is what you prefer. Often the truth is known inside Russia, and the truth may be both simple and ugly. However it has not any kind of connection with freedom of press, or oppression by the state.

Some countries legalize corruption, others fight it.

[Faux Pas]

Shadow, no doubt in my mind that you have your head stuck up your butt here. I just can't for the life of me understand why. McCarthyism? I don't get that connection but you are on the Hale Bopp.

You are the only one who has brought up FSB. You may not be aware that corruption does occur on many levels, local and municipal, provincial and national. Some of this they may or may not be involved in but, if you believe they don't know about it, that would just be further proof of your head in the sand.

Would it make you feel better if Baketev were murdered too? At least there would be some justification for seeing this nobody's face on the internet? The story of intimidated, beaten and murdered journalists continues.

Don't attempt to credit me with words or statements I haven't made. I never once said Russia is a nation of fools and idiots. Fools and idiots turn away and deny the truth when it's slapping them about the head and face. Your admiration of the FSB is blatantly obvious and duly noted.

The only factual statement you made "the truth is known inside Russia". It is ugly and it has everything to do with freedom of the press. It's the deniers such as yourself that help perpetuate that ugly truth and deny the populace in Russia of rights we in the West take for granted. If we don't identify and help eradicate those injustices we are as guilty as those committing the murders IMO

[tim 360]

Anyone with half a brain can use Google and search the subject from reliable publications both outside and inside of Russia detailing murdered Russian journalists.  Add Anna or Litveneko and you will have the picture.  A new Russian bill will make it a crime for any journalist to criticize the Russian government and the crime would be akin to terrorism.  And of course the entity which will be in charge will be the FSB.  

Shadow:  What are you trying to sell here anyway?

Faux:  I brought up the FSB first.  Their hands are dirty.  Again, anyone can check that out from reliable sources.