The 10 Commandments---Age Difference

[Shostakovich]

OK!  I have a question - aimed at the experienced fellows here who've run the +20 year age difference gauntlet.

Much hay is made on this subject and it seems to get rehashed over and over.  I liked that fellow's list of 12 points up above.

One topic that does not seem to receive much play is the lady's opinion on the matter, during the dating phase.  The logic against a large age difference is pervasive and sound - I am interested in whatever experiences you wish to report upon confronting the lady with it.

I suspect the lady most normally stonewalls or avoids the subject, or, in the case of an immature woman, has not thought about it at all.  Assuming a mature woman, have any of you had any success getting the lady to open up?   

[KenC]

Shostakovich,
I think (sincere) younger women are attracted to the stability of an older man.  Of course his additional wisdom and worldliness, polish, if you will is also a big plus.  I also think that this perceived stability is extra alluring when it is coupled with the idea that she is going to have a world of change with life in the new country.  A "father figure" is a rather good security blanket.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Some of life's realities, like them are not are that we can talk about it until we are blue in the face and we won't talk one guy out of persuing his age gap relationship.

I see everyone talk about the dangers and problems of the woman changing her mind about wanting children and the guy not wanting them.  I have seen cases where this happened, Jack for one and it sounds like Ken as well.  The reality of it is, having talked to tons of guys who were seriously looking for age gap relationships my observations are totally different.

Nearly all the guys who were older and looking for a "young" wife wanted kids.  Some wanted the kid they never had and may get a surprise about what child rearing is like.  Most of us seem to think the older men want a hot young trophy, I think more want a mother for thier children and would accept an older woman if it was not for this.

As far as life stages and people growing apart.  It seems to me that I hear a lot about people having grown apart in reasons for divorce even without an age gap ever without a RW as the wife.

I have said before that I think half the reasons we list that age gap relationships should have problems are a bunch of crap, but that doesn't mean there may not be that many more that exist and are more important that we don't talk about or never think about.

I will restate what I said before, I don't think an age gap relationship is that doomed to fail but I do think most people will be happier and have a better marriage if they avoid entering one.   

[I/O]

One topic that does not seem to receive much play is the lady's opinion on the matter

Ladies, 20 years younger ladies are allowed to have an opinion?  

Shosty: On the 4th of October 2005, in an email, potential Mrs I/O said this, "My opinion on a difference of our age: certainly I have limits in restriction of age of my second half. The main thing that we had general interests and understanding to each other. In Russia there live some pairs at which much болше a difference in the age of what of 17 years, therefore I do not think that it is a greater problem. Write to me that you think of it?"

[felix8787]

Actually, the only thing I have tried to "tell" anyone in this thread is age gaps are not as accepted among RW as some would like and others would like to have you believe. I've presented some evidence to support the view whereas anything else I have seen amounts to theory and speculation.

Hey everyone, as i don't post much at all, i figured that i would contribute something here. I'm sitting here in my lady's apt (in Ukraine, Kryvoy rog) and i asked her about this..she says that big age difference can not be sincere. she would rather be with someone closer to her age (we are 7 years apart). When i was in kharkov, mila-the interpreter says something along those lines about age difference.

But thats all that she says on the matter. later everyone!

felix8787

[Ravens9273]

One thing overlooked in this dscussion is not really the age gap itself but the ages of the two parties at the time of getting married.

20 year difference has been the key number used in this thread.

Consider the difference of a 20 year old Women marrying a 40 year old Man to a 50 year old Women marrying a 70 year old Man.

[Daveman]

Dave, you learn what to ignore and what to pay attention to once you are married 

I hope you're right... should I actually survive that long... 

Back to the age gap....  I was involved in a 16yr age gap once...  never say never, but it's highly unlikely I'll do that again.  I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but one problem I had with that is that I just didn't view her as my equal.  For whatever reasons, I just never saw her as an equal partner at my level.  Big problem from the start.   I'm looking for a "best friend" first and foremost... is that possible with a woman 20 years younger?  Perhaps for some, but not for me.  So, I am pretty sure the age gap deal wouldn't work for me at all.  I'm defining the 'gap' as greater than 15 years... for me personally I think closer to 10 is my max.  And that's not related to how wonderful the lady may be but rather my own inability to view someone that much younger as an equal.  Just can't do it.

[pitbull]

Pitbull,
Oh how I do disagree with this portion of your post!

You're assuming that the man was insincere and the woman was not.  You're also assuming that the motivation of the man was her hot young body.  Why is the time spent in the marriage any more valuable to the young woman than the older man? In fact, if you look at it as time left to live, the time was much more valuable to him. Using your faulty logic, why can't the young woman just find an age appropriate new man?

Sorry, but the REAL loser is the party that was still in love.
KenC

KenC,

I will try to explain my logic. First of all I assume that both the man and the woman were sincere and in love when getting married. I also believe that "the young hot body" if not the primary motivation for the man falling in love, was a very big one. I don't believe he found a soul mate in a woman his daughter's age from a different culture that doe4sn't even speak English as her first language. Come on, read the many threads on this forum titled "Why I want a young woman". The woman had her own reasons to fall in love with the older man - maturity, stability, "father figure", etc.

Why is the time spent in marriage more valuable for the woman? I will explain. Let's say a 24y.o. woman marries a 49 y.o. man and stays in marriage for lets say 10 years. She is 34-35 when she is out of it. It is sad but true - the woman's "shelf life" for finding the best man to start and raise a family with and for having kids is way shorter than a man's. When a woman turns 30 it's a man's dating game. After 35 many women have problems getting pregnant and having healthy kids. Biological clock you know.

So lets say our hypothetical woman instead of doing "natural life stage things" from 24 to 35 (having and raising kids together with her husband and enjoying sex with a healthy young man) spent the 10 year accompanying the husband to golf games. Now at 35 she has to start from scratch and do what she was supposed to do 10 years ago. Alone in a different country, when her beauty is fading and biological clock window is rapidly closing. Often she doesn't have a good career and has to work hard to support herself. In fact she has good chances to never make it, never experience what she really wants and needs. The precious time is lost.

The 59-60 y.o. old man on the other hand exclusively enjoyed the 10 years of youth and beauty of his wife, which he wouldn't have had if she were not a RW. This was a frill for him, a bonus which per his "natural life stage" he shouldn't have had. He will still enjoy his kids and grand kids, he had these experiences in the natural time for a man to have them. At his age it is still a man's dating game, he can still find a younger woman or age-appropriate woman for companionship, love and to share the rest of his life with.

Assuming the two sincerely loved each other and the break up is heartbreaking for both, the woman is the loser big time in this case. I'd call it "the case of stolen youth".

[Turboguy]

If all he wants is a pretty face and a hot body there are lots of 30 and 40 year old women in the FSU who qualify.

[Gator]

Pitbull,

RW mentality (yes, there are exceptions) is that anything is okay if the other party allows it. 

With this logic, the man is not to blame because the young woman did allow her youth to be taken.  Her youth was not stolen, she gave it away.  The question is, "For what?"

[Faux Pas]

If all he wants is a pretty face and a hot body there are lots of 30 and 40 year old women in the FSU who qualify.

Yes there is. I tend to find an attractive more mature woman, more attractive than a 20 something. Thats preference I'm sure. I was single for many years and during that time dated AW of many ages and on several occasions 20 years age difference. I also dated and had fairly long term relationships with AW somewhat older than myself and all ages in between.

I think what attracted me to them was the youth and vitality. Likely, more out of envy and attempt to hold on to my own youth rather than the hard young body. Every time much like Dave mentions, I always seemed to assume the role of father like mentor. A position that I found very awkward for me. The sex was great and that was much the extent of it. I never dated a much younger woman that I felt there was any kind of long term possibility. I tried, Lord knows I did but, either I was always choosing the wrong ones or much younger women just were not for me personally. I chose to believe the latter.

[KenC]

Pitbull,
While I understand and appreciate your point of view, I cannot agree with your "stolen youth" statement for a number of reasons.  First and formost, it was "bought and paid for" through typically a much better lifestyle provided by the older man.  I don't mean to sound so crass, but I am following your example as given.  There are always two sides to a relationship.  

Secondly, that youth was given freely without coercion.  Offered up as a gift, if you will.  Both parties brought things to the relationship and the point can be made that in divorce, both parties lost those things.

I also believe your response is a bit inconsistent.  In the beginning your fictitious example married for love but by the end you seem to make his motivation her young hot body.  Both parties brought benefits into the relationship, but if it all was for love, then love was the motivating factor, not material gain or physical pleasure.

You seem to want to put the entire burden of blame onto the man.  Initially, I was in total disagreement with this idea.  In your example, two people in love are blinded to most of the pitfalls possible in the relationship.  Fools in love.  However. the older (wiser?) man might should be held more accountable for the eventual failure by allowing the relationship to get to the point of marriage.

Turbo makes the correct point up thread that no amount of discussion here will sidetrack an age gap relationship already in motion.  I agree with him that it is unlikely.  But our discussions here are not without value either.  The key is not to start the relationship when you know the age difference is too great.
KenC

Raven & Dave,
Both of you make very valid points.
KenC

[KenC]

If all he wants is a pretty face and a hot body there are lots of 30 and 40 year old women in the FSU who qualify.

Turbo,
And even in their 50's now a days!  But that wasn't the case many years ago.  When I met with the agency I used some 12 years ago, there was onlly ONE 30 something year old woman listed (that I would consider) and none in their 40's.

Yes there is. I tend to find an attractive more mature woman, more attractive than a 20 something. Thats preference I'm sure. I was single for many years and during that time dated AW of many ages and on several occasions 20 years age difference. I also dated and had fairly long term relationships with AW somewhat older than myself and all ages in between.

I think what attracted me to them was the youth and vitality. Likely, more out of envy and attempt to hold on to my own youth rather than the hard young body. Every time much like Dave mentions, I always seemed to assume the role of father like mentor. A position that I found very awkward for me. The sex was great and that was much the extent of it. I never dated a much younger woman that I felt there was any kind of long term possibility. I tried, Lord knows I did but, either I was always choosing the wrong ones or much younger women just were not for me personally. I chose to believe the latter.

Faux Pas,
Then there is that old joke where 2 guys see a young hottie.  One makes a comment on how hot she is and the other replies: "Yes, but somewhere there is still a guy that is tired of putting up with her sh!t."

I could also make a point of how much better sex can be with a more mature experienced woman, but I won't go there!
KenC

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas,
Then there is that old joke where 2 guys see a young hottie.  One makes a comment on how hot she is and the other replies: "Yes, but somewhere there is still a guy that is tired of putting up with her sh!t."

I could also make a point of how much better sex can be with a more mature experienced woman, but I won't go there!
KenC

KenC, truer words were never spoken. Fortunately or unfortunately for me I have been on both ends of that muttering 

The father and mentoring role can be a helleva lot of fun and empowering for a while, inside and outside the bedroom but, it can also be very tiring and a serious drain on one's patience to the point a sanity check is in order.

[Daveman]

KenC, truer words were never spoken. Fortunately or unfortunately for me I have been on both ends of that muttering 

The father and mentoring role can be a helleva lot of fun and empowering for a while, inside and outside the bedroom but, it can also be very tiring and a serious drain on one's patience to the point a sanity check is in order.

Yes, and especially so because one must be allowed to "live" and make one's own mistakes... mistakes we've already made and have a difficult time just sitting back and allowing someone we care about to duplicate. She can't live vicariously through our past. She must be free to be completely stupid all on her own....    :evil:   

[pitbull]

Pitbull,
While I understand and appreciate your point of view, I cannot agree with your "stolen youth" statement for a number of reasons.  First and formost, it was "bought and paid for" through typically a much better lifestyle provided by the older man.  I don't mean to sound so crass, but I am following your example as given.  There are always two sides to a relationship.  

Secondly, that youth was given freely without coercion.  Offered up as a gift, if you will.  Both parties brought things to the relationship and the point can be made that in divorce, both parties lost those things.

KenC,

The "stolen youth" label philosophically speaking is applied as much to the woman as to the man. In my example she "stole it" from herself as well. The reasons may be different. For example, did the man "string her along" with the idea that he is still considering the possibility to have kids with her, giving her hope for several precious years, before he made his final decision or his state of health made it for him? Was the woman just not very smart and too lazy to work hard to be able to provide for herself? There are nuances to why this happened that we don't need to get into.

The end result is still the same: given both parties loved each other, in the "things being brought to the table" she got a bad deal.

Take your own words: "Both parties brought things to the relationship and the point can be made that in divorce, both parties lost those things". Correct, he lost her young body, she lost the lifestyle that he provided. However, he can still provide the nice lifestyle to some other woman. She on the other hand, doesn't have her youth, beauty and hardly any fertility any more, to bring to the table in her next relationship. He has had his family and kids experience, she hasn't and her chances of ever having it are small. To my opinion the price she paid is way too high.

Youth, beauty and time is a precious gift that one can never get back. It's a rapidly depreciating asset as well. Some women are smart enough to realize this and build their life accordingly, some aren't.

I do know what I am talking about, since even though I and my husband "only" have a 12 year age gap, it still is an age gap. I always wanted one child, he was very firm about having two or more. We agreed on having one and seeing how it goes. Due to certain circumstances, now that we have a one year old, he changed his mind and only wants one. we are perfectly aligned.  

If however, he totally changed his mind and decided he doesn't want children, period, I doubt that our marriage would have survived. He would have understood since he loves me and wants what is best for me.

My point is, if the older man doesn't fulfill the younger woman's basic life stage needs, he is headed for divorce.

[KenC]

KenC, truer words were never spoken. Fortunately or unfortunately for me I have been on both ends of that muttering 

The father and mentoring role can be a helleva lot of fun and empowering for a while, inside and outside the bedroom but, it can also be very tiring and a serious drain on one's patience to the point a sanity check is in order.

Yes, and especially so because one must be allowed to "live" and make one's own mistakes... mistakes we've already made and have a difficult time just sitting back and allowing someone we care about to duplicate. She can't live vicariously through our past. She must be free to be completely stupid all on her own....    :evil:  

OMG!  You guys don't know how very true your statements are!

Everyone thinks that good looks and a hot body cures all.  They don't.  It is extremely difficult, if not impossible to stand by and let someone you care for dearly make mistakes.  

Another misnomer is that it is only the physical aspects of the relationship that may be challenging to the older man.  That part is a piece of cake compared to the mental drain you experience always explaining life to your partner.  Hey, I already lived through that stuff and don't need to do it again.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know if I have the patience left that it takes to pursue another RW.  Probably not.  You cannot believe how refreshing it is now to talk with an AW close to my age with her sh!t together.  I guess life really is a circle.
KenC

[KenC]

Pitbull,
Very good post.  I agree with the idea that it is unfair to string along a woman with the hope for children in the future and then not follow through.  In fact, I would take that idea a step further.  Even if the young woman claims to never want children, the older man should know that her opinion is possible to change over time.
KenC

[Blues Fairy]

The end result is still the same: given both parties loved each other, in the "things being brought to the table" she got a bad deal.

Life is so unfair. 

However, provided that both people are over 18 and completely honest with each other regarding their future plans, I still think each of them is ultimately responsible for whatever deal he/she ultimately gets out of life.  Being a silly child at the moment of marriage is no excuse for running from this responsibility.  No husband, even a very wise one, can possibly provide for every possible scenario - and he's perfectly right in being selfish and getting what he's getting out of his marriage to a young woman. 

On another note, age 30+ is far from being the end of the game; besides, who prevents the lady from building a solid career and acquiring a network of friends while being married to the old dude?    I don't buy your apocalyptic scenario, Pitbull.

[KenC]

Blues Fairy,
WOW!  What a post.   You are correct too.  At 32, my ex is not all that close to the end of her fertile years and her looks will not detour too many potential sperm donors.  Besides, isn't "youth" a relative term?  Hell, she'd still be a young hottie if I were 46 (the age I was when we met).
KenC

[vwrw]

Very well said BF! I absolutely agree with you. 

[BC]

Funny how this age difference 'thing' literally consumes discussion boards time and time again.

in quantitative terms we can safely say that men implicitly seek younger women.

Here's a non FSU relationship discussion board..

http://www.enotalone.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=40

Take a look at the post counts.. highest 60 something..

then take a look at this marathon with a whopping 629 posts...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=32.0

Add up all the age difference posts in different threads and you'll probably come up with a number in the thousands..

One could interpret that the lust for younger women is probably one of the primary reasons men look to FSU, with a 'driving factor' that is at least 10 times greater than in the normal AM/AW environment, probably a LOT greater considering that 60 something post thread was about a 16 year old girl with desires for an older man..

Oh.. but I dated younger women at home before..
Oh.. but we just 'happened' to meet each other..
Oh.. it doesn't make a difference..
Oh.. but AW are fat..
Oh.. RW take better care of themselves..
Oh.. She might have an accident first..
Oh.. But statistics say...
Oh.. and Oh.. and Oh..

Any and all possible excuses, all BS.

Guys, just say it:  'I just want a young hottie'.. comeon.. just spit it out!

[pitbull]

Life is so unfair. 

However, provided that both people are over 18 and completely honest with each other regarding their future plans, I still think each of them is ultimately responsible for whatever deal he/she ultimately gets out of life.  Being a silly child at the moment of marriage is no excuse for running from this responsibility.  No husband, even a very wise one, can possibly provide for every possible scenario - and he's perfectly right in being selfish and getting what he's getting out of his marriage to a young woman. 

On another note, age 30+ is far from being the end of the game; besides, who prevents the lady from building a solid career and acquiring a network of friends while being married to the old dude?    I don't buy your apocalyptic scenario, Pitbull.

BF,You are totally correct. The scenario is apocalyptic for the woman who is not "the smartest tool in the box". If she didn't jump off the wagon early enough it's her own fault. Hopefully she also got something out of the marriage other than being fed while it lasted: a very good education that would allow for successful career, a house, a good chunk of change, cars, half of the 401K, or better yet, all of the above  

As to the dating (not for fun but trying to find a husband and future father of your children) after 30...I have way too many stories from both RW and AW dating after 30. After 35 it gets much worse.

[pitbull]

Guys, just say it:  'I just want a young hottie'.. comeon.. just spit it out!

BC, here you are.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7795.0

 Just one of the many threads on "I want a young hottie". The OP summarizes it all pretty nicely:

"And when I started looking around at women again, I realized something fairly quickly … I wanted a young woman! I had aged, but the women I desired had not! (Here is the “issue” is it not?) I did not want a woman “my age” like I felt I was supposed to want. And the more I saw them with fresh eyes, oh man, how much I desired them, how beautiful and alluring they were. I wanted them so bad my teeth hurt. I have an expression: when I was 15, 25 yr old women were beautiful; when I was 25, 25 yr old women were beautiful; when I was 35, 25 yr old women were beautiful; when I was 45, 25 yr old women were beautiful, etc … While time passes in a man’s life, that moment of maximum desirability of a woman does not move."

[Daveman]

ahhhh,nevermind... joke thresh hold overloaded..