The 10 Commandments---Age Difference

[Blues Fairy]

BF,You are totally correct. The scenario is apocalyptic for the woman who is not "the smartest tool in the box".

Yeah, I'm a big believer in personal responsibility.    That said, I think if the husband is much older and somewhat (a lot) smarter than is young wife, and he clearly sees that she's on the way to get a really, really bad deal out of their marriage, there's no excuse for him not to try to point it out to her, or try to compensate in some way by wise investments into her future.  Personal responsibility or not, I don't appreciate blatant users.   

[SFandEE]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?ind=topsite

Here is a list of TopSites on RWD.  Perhaps those who know where appropriate women to date can be found can direct the discussion to a productive close.  One message that I have been hearing on this site is that women from Russia or Ukraine are not appropriate prospects for marriage considering all of the inherent differences  No inappropriate balances of finance, education, life experience, power, language, culture, or age.  Just equals.  For that matter, please include appropriate American websites.

[BillyB]

Billy,
The world is not as simplistic as you portray it in your examples.  There usually is not one traumatic accident that leaves a man (or woman) in a wheelchair.  It just isn't as black & white as that.  Pitbull is much closer to reality with her post IMO.

Ken, I understand more people may bail when faced with a catastrophic event in their marriage than stay. I hope more people will try to focus on marrying someone who can handle things a little better when things don't go smooth. We can judge those people based on observing their behavior over time before marriage. Just because most people bail don't mean they are right and marriage material. Maybe we should make wedding vows with a disclaimer attached saying "All vows shall be null and void if life gets tough for ME and/or MY feelings are suffering". That's not romantic to hear by the spouse during the wedding but more realistic of what people are like.

Your concept of honoring the wedding vows unconditionally in case of an illness or disability is rather finite.  Why shouldn't the vows be honored under any condition?  Why is there ANY divorces?  It is very judgemental to say they should be honored in this case and not in others.  

Wedding vows shouldn't be honored under any bad condition that is created intentionally by their spouse. If a man is abusive to a woman, she has the right to leave if he violates his vows. If a woman neglects her duties, the man has the right to divorce.

I'm sure everyone has their own views on what are valid reasons a marriage can be terminated and according to a Christian friend of mine, there are 3 according to the Bible. Abuse, infidelity and abandonment. Abuse and infidelity are self explanatory but abandonment can come in many forms anywhere from leaving your spouse physically to abandoning your responsibilities.

When responsibilities pile up, more and more people will leave. I understand that and I don't want to marry a weak person.

One last point I would like to make to you.  Do you think a man wants an unhappy wife whom is just fulfilling her vows?  Personally, I would prefer to be alone.

Why would she be unhappy? If a guy took care of his wife well all throughout marriage and now she has to do more to take care of him, why is she unhappy helping a person she loves? She's willing to take care of and change diapers on her own baby that she loves. Your point refers to people only in a marriage lacking love.

Maybe too many people are marrying too quickly and marrying the wrong person. I doubt all the married people participating in this thread are entirely happy with their marriages. Not one of you has come forth to announce they are so in love with their spouse that if a catastrophic event occurred disabling their spouse, you would stand by their side until their dying days sacrificing your own quality of life for the life of their loved one. Most of you seem to accept your supposed loved one is going to leave you when times get tough. Not much confidence out there and maybe there is not a lot of love in your marriages as you would like. When I will love a woman, I'd not only make sacrifices, I'd make the ultimate sacrifice for her and that is giving my life to protect hers. Certainly pushing her in a wheelchair is less life threatening. I wouldn't want to marry any woman unless I feel absolute love and respect for her. I made a mistake with my ex wife of settling for less and I got less.

When you guys are hunting for a spouse, what do you look for in them?

I've wrote many good things over the years about my ex fiancee and I'll repeat some of them here.

When we were invited to eat at her grandmother's, my ex fiancee would cook and wash the dishes without being told. We could've went there, eat and then go have fun on the town but I admired her for doing something that isn't fun for the benefit of a loved family member. She's the same way taking care of her mom.

When I invited her and her mom to St. Petersburg, I gave her mom some money to go shopping so we can have some time alone for ourselves. When it was time for her mom to come back to the apartment, she waited outside in the hot sun for an hour because just in case her mom was lost and would bypass the intersection. Another example she'll do something uncomfortable for the benefit of a loved one.

When Natalia's grandmother was losing her mind and health, she stayed at her grandmother's house everyday to take care of her right up to the last day of her grandmother's life. During the time she took care of granny, she told me it was difficult and stressful and I told her to rotate the responsibilities with other relatives but she refused because she didn't think anybody could take care of grandmother as good as she could. Another example that she'll give her time and labor to help a loved one until their dying days.

When I'm looking for a spouse, I'm looking for a woman with many of the fine qualities of my ex fiancee. She gives more than she takes, she's got a strong character, not afraid of responsibilities, and there's less chance she'll be involved in a divorce unless her husband is very bad and there's a greater chance she will not run from her husband if he acquires a major illness or disability compared to other women. Her behavior pattern today shows me that during a time where she has beauty and youth, she doesn't exhibit a selfish "ME" attitude which afflicts many young beautiful women. Not every man deserves a woman like her but she certainly deserves a man of equal quality.

[BillyB]

Actually, the only thing I have tried to "tell" anyone in this thread is age gaps are not as accepted among RW as some would like and others would like to have you believe. I've presented some evidence to support the view whereas anything else I have seen amounts to theory and speculation.
I disagree.

I/O, anybody can go to the dating sites and read what RW will and will not accept. At the dating sites, the profiles are filled out by the women themselves and not doctored by an agency that has interests in getting old men signed up. The dating sites have the largest sample of women and would account for more than all "heard it through the grapevine" stories of ours put together. RW on average have larger minimums and maximums for age compared to their Western sisters. NO man should feel ashamed or afraid to enter into a 15 year age gap relationship if the woman is looking for a man 10-20 years older than herself. She probably has her own good reasons not to deal with young men.

You feel that if too many people here with large age gaps with their spouse tell a story of their successful marriage it would look like a promotion of marriages with large age gaps. Look at it from another way. As an outsider looking in, if I see everyone in large age gaps tell me "don't do it", I will wonder if the people saying that is in a good marriage and if not, is it of their own fault instead of an age problem?

Many problems I read from fail marriages with large age gaps are no different than problems encountered with fail marriages where the two people are close in age. My ex wife was childish, selfish and immature and she was 7 years younger than myself. My ex fiancee was 12 years younger but a much more responsible person. I now place less importance on age and more importants on a woman's character traits. I am aware that maturity can lack with younger people but ultimately age does not tell me how mature a person is, observing their behavior over time will give me that answer. Telling someone alone to keep the age gap to a minimum does little for marriage success. There are a whole lot more important factors involved to create a happy marriage. The biggest issue with large ages gaps for me is simply as the gap gets bigger, the number of insincere men AND women increase and getting involved with an insincere person is enough to make any marriage fail.

[I/O]

I think if the husband is much older and somewhat (a lot) smarter than is young wife, and he clearly sees that she's on the way to get a really, really bad deal out of their marriage, there's no excuse for him not to try to point it out to her, or try to compensate in some way by wise investments into her future.

Do you honestly think that is ever likely to happen in such circumstances?

Life is so unfair. 

Life's a sch!t and then ya' marry one they say.

No husband, even a very wise one, can possibly provide for every possible scenario

Thwack...!!! Nail hit squarely on the head. Nobody is pointing guns at heads in this caper, marriage is by choice and choice alone. We find ourselves in the position we now are as a result of choice we make. How many times to we lecture guys about trying to be White Knights? Why would we encourage that just because there is an age gap?

[Gator]

Turbo makes the correct point up thread that no amount of discussion here will sidetrack an age gap relationship already in motion.  I agree with him that it is unlikely.  But our discussions here are not without value either.  

I found the discussions here valuable many years ago, especially the issues identified by KenC.  And I stopped an age gap relationship short of marriage.   However, I went back after an 18-month hiatus.  I guess I stopped reading RWD.

[Gator]

She on the other hand, doesn't have her youth, beauty and hardly any fertility any more, to bring to the table in her next relationship. ....Youth, beauty and time is a precious gift that one can never get back. It's a rapidly depreciating asset as well. Some women are smart enough to realize this and build their life accordingly, some aren't.

The not so smart ones are doomed to a life of being passed from man to man.  Not a fate to be proud of.  I believe this happens even more frequently in Russia. 

Life is so unfair.   

On another note, age 30+ is far from being the end of the game; besides, who prevents the lady from building a solid career and acquiring a network of friends while being married to the old dude? 

Bingo!  A competent woman would do exactly that.  And I trust the old dude, if he loves her, would mentor her as she accomplishes this objective.

[Blues Fairy]

Do you honestly think that is ever likely to happen in such circumstances?
How many times to we lecture guys about trying to be White Knights? Why would we encourage that just because there is an age gap?

Don't know I/O, it's probably just my (outdated?) ideas of gentlemanly behavior.  Probably never happens in the said circumstances (an older wiser guy married to a much younger stupider woman) - but should that be the case, I think the gentlemanly thing would be not to take advantage of her stupidity.  But, in no way does that cancel her own responsibility for her life.  

[Gator]

That said, I think if the husband is much older and somewhat (a lot) smarter than is young wife, and he clearly sees that she's on the way to get a really, really bad deal out of their marriage, there's no excuse for him not to try to point it out to her, or try to compensate in some way by wise investments into her future.   

Not sure of what you mean other than supporting her education or mentoring her career.

Do you honestly think that is ever likely to happen in such circumstances?

Probably not.  And not because of the man.  Horse ....water....drink

Personal responsibility or not, I don't appreciate blatant users. 

There are bloodsuckers out there, some in trousers, and some wearing skirts.   Protect yourself.

[Gator]

Probably never happens in the said circumstances (an older wiser guy married to a much younger stupider woman)

Happens all the time.  It is the opposite that is rare.

[Blues Fairy]

Not sure of what you mean other than supporting her education or mentoring her career.

I agree, that's probably the only things he really can do in most cases.  But it's also not a bad thing to be a little but of a psychologist, to look into her soul a bit deeper and identify the possible damage that may be driving her self-destructive trajectories.  Loving a person and seeing his/her inner damage sometimes makes one want to help in other ways than just support education and career.  I'm not talking of a White Knight here but of real support, selfless but not self-defeating.  A rare thing indeed, but what a gift it would be.  

Women may f*** up their lives for very different reasons, not necessarily stupidity.  But some damage can be corrected if the intervention is timely.  

[Gator]

I agree, that's probably the only things he really can do in most cases.  But it's also not a bad thing to be a little but of a psychologist, to look into her soul a bit deeper and identify the possible damage that may be driving her self-destructive trajectories.  Loving a person and seeing his/her inner damage sometimes makes one want to help in other ways than just support education and career.  I'm not talking of a White Knight here but of real support, selfless but not self-defeating.  A rare thing indeed, but what a gift it would be.  

Women may f*** up their lives for very different reasons, not necessarily stupidity.  But some damage can be corrected if the intervention is timely.  

Requires an insightful and noble man, and a receptive, committed woman.  If that is the case, the marriage is probably stable. 

[Gator]

I depart with these quotes:

Erica Jong
You see a lot of smart guys with dumb women, but you hardly ever see a smart woman with a dumb guy.


Andy Rooney
For every stunning, smart, well-coiffed hot woman of 40 +, there is a balding, paunchy relic in yellow pants making a fool of himself with some 22-year-old waitress.   Ladies, I apologize.


Rita Rudner
The older theory was, marry an older man because they're more mature.  But the new theory is men don't mature.  Marry a younger one.

Lenore Coffee
When a man of 40 falls in love with a girl of 20, it isn't her youth he is seeking but his own.

[Shostakovich]

And let's not forget Tom Lehrer:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NOZH0y7VxE[/youtube]

[I/O]

I think if the husband is much older and somewhat (a lot) smarter than is young wife, and he clearly sees that she's on the way to get a really, really bad deal out of their marriage, there's no excuse for him not to try to point it out to her, or try to compensate in some way by wise investments into her future.

it's probably just my (outdated?) ideas of gentlemanly behavior.

I think the gentlemanly thing would be not to take advantage of her stupidity.

I just don't see the guy in the first quote being a "gentleman" if he is prepared to proceed to marriage knowing the above as you outline, therefore I doubt he is likely to set anything advantageous in place for her longer term future. Selfish prick would be more my description.

[Seeker]

I just don't see the guy in the first quote being a "gentleman" if he is prepared to proceed to marriage knowing the above as you outline, therefore I doubt he is likely to set anything advantageous in place for her longer term future. Selfish prick would be more my description.

This seems to be the crux of this discussion.  Intent.

If his (or her) intent is to take from the other, rather than give (and take as needed by the couple) it is not going to work, and shouldn't even have been started.  Relationships mean more than "what is in it for me?"

Just my opinion, having been there more than once...

[Turboguy]

I depart with these quotes:

Erica Jong
You see a lot of smart guys with dumb women, but you hardly ever see a smart woman with a dumb guy.

That is unless he is rich, president of the USA or well hung.

Andy Rooney
For every stunning, smart, well-coiffed hot woman of 40 +, there is a balding, paunchy relic in yellow pants making a fool of himself with some 22-year-old waitress.   Ladies, I apologize.

And after he makes a fool of himself he posts a TR on RWD and gets clue batted by KenC et al.

Rita Rudner
The older theory was, marry an older man because they're more mature.  But the new theory is men don't mature.  Marry a younger one.

So for most it is marry the older one, get a Green Card and most of his money and then marry the young one.

Lenore Coffee
When a man of 40 falls in love with a girl of 20, it isn't her youth he is seeking but his own.

So perhaps my former friend was right when he said "You are only as old as the woman you feel"

[Turboguy]

Turbo,
And even in their 50's now a days!  But that wasn't the case many years ago.  When I met with the agency I used some 12 years ago, there was onlly ONE 30 something year old woman listed (that I would consider) and none in their 40's.

KenC

It may not have been the case with the particular agency you were using Ken, but there were lots of them out there.  While you were laying eyes on Lena for the first time I was in Kranodar meeting a 38 year old.  While you were sorting through the paperwork to bring Lena to the USA on a student visa I was in Omsk meeting a 36 year old.  I will agree that there are far more now but your statement that it wasn't the case 12 years ago is one I would disagree with.

[kievstar]

Relationships were there is a big age difference but they have children together tend to last unless the husband is some crazy guy (like the guy past two years on the board from Lousiana).  As previous posters mentioned husband and wife are in same area of life in child raising.

Regarding the RW and gossip.  Many women gossip (not just Russian) and they tend to talk about the bad or controversial.  Just more interesting to talk about. 

My wife runs into many RW who married AM and found out after living with AM really does not love him.  Almost every case involves large age gap (old fart does not like doing things she likes) or controlling husband.  These RW tend to not know what to do and usually ask all their friends.  Since they can not talk to friends who know her husband they tend to talk to other RW or women in their ESL classes.  Root cause here generally is wife and husband not spending enough time before marriage and not realizing both are in different life phase.  By the way the husband usually thinks everything is super and has no clue his wife is pissed. 

There is another thing USA has is areas where many RM and RW living in USA do not approve of Russians marrying Americans eventhough these Russians live in the USA.  These are the so called bad gossip women and men and it is best your wife stays away from these people.  These include the people (not all) who faked being Jewish to get into the country 20 plus years ago or were criminals and had money to pay their way into the country 20 plus years.  These people also tended to not learn very much English.  They are present in very large cities generally so if you do not live in the top 25 cities in USA by population probably not going to run into them.  My wife runs into them a lot and best advise for anyones wife is to tell them that you love your husband.  This turns them off and they move onto to someone else.  But if your wife hesitates their population grows.

[BillyB]

That is unless he is rich, president of the USA or well hung.

Being Vice President doesn't cut it to secure a marriage that lasts forever. I wonder why Al Gore and his wife feel the need to separate after 40 years unless one or both feel there is someone out there that will bring them more happiness than what they are currently experiencing with each other.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/01/al-tipper-gore-break-years-marriage/

When most people marry, I assume there is love in the beginning and hopefully the love grows stronger everyday but it takes two strong people to nuture their marriage to be stronger everyday until death. I congratulate Al and his wife for having a long marriage but I can't help to think one or both of them let their marriage slowly die. If either of them felt the love in their marriage was dying out, they should've took action earlier. Maybe they failed to read the signs their marriage was deteriorating years ago and now it is beyond repair.

[KenC]

Billy,
You really do live in a fantasy world, don't ya?
KenC

[Turboguy]

Being Vice President doesn't cut it to secure a marriage that lasts forever. I wonder why Al Gore and his wife feel the need to separate after 40 years unless one or both feel there is someone out there that will bring them more happiness than what they are currently experiencing with each other.

Probably since Al invented the internet he surfed A-Web's site and decided there was something better out there.  He will probably be the next new member of RWD and start posting about his quest for a 20 year old.

[kievstar]

Billy, for political reasons Al could not divorce his wife if he was going to run for the President.  He probably would have divorced Tipper back when she was trying to censor music tapes 20 plus years ago if he had no ambition to run for President.  Bill is doing the same with Hillary.  There not happily married but it helps both of there political agenda. 

[BillyB]

Billy,
You really do live in a fantasy world, don't ya?
KenC

If living in a fantasy World is what it takes to have a great marriage that lasts a lifetime, then yeah I wanna live in a fantasy World.

Are you satisfied entering into another marriage that will last only 5, 10, 20, 40 years before divorce? Is that anyone's goal here or am I the only one fantasizing about a marriage that will last a lifetime and thinking about what it takes to make it work? What are we doing here telling guys what kind of women to look for and avoid if we have no hope that marriage will last? If we don't expect marriages to last, we should tell guys to marry any crappy person because the results with be the same no matter who they marry.

Ken, do you currently care if your next marriage last or are you content that your next relationship won't last? Having a defeatist attitude will get any person in another short term relationship whether they want it or not.

I don't want divorce again and if I feel my dates aren't the right women to last a lifetime with me or I know I can't last with them, I'd rather live the life of a single man. Before divorce happens, it usually means someone or both spouses are unhappy in the marriage and I don't want to live that way again.

I think it's safe to say a good percentage of people who are married now are unhappy. Half of the marriages end if divorce and many will remain in an unhappy and loveless marriage. The odds are against finding a happy marriage that'll last a lifetime but that is my goal. I'm conviced many of the married poster's here or their spouses aren't entirely happy and that is not the relationship I want. If I'm happily married, I will post less but I will post happy. I would say a guy like Wiz is in a happy marriage. Over the years he went from posting a lot as a single man showing lots of anger in his posts to posting less but with a happier more positive attitude. The change in him is for the better and I hope his wife continues to make him a better man and he make his wife a better woman.

Kievstar, I understand many politicians try to retain their unhappy marriages for selfish reasons. Maybe it happened with Al and Tipper but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and believe they did love each other for the majority of the life of their marriage. Al being a busy man after being Vice Prez may have contributed to the demise of his marriage. He's supposed to be retired but he's got a lot of individual projects going on. After I retire, I would want to spend more time with the family and enjoy life with them.

Turbo, we at RWD crtainly can help Al Gore out if he wants to participate. The first tip I'll give is that he can trade his 60 wife in for three 20 yo newer models at AWeb.

[KenC]

Billy,
You miss the point entirely.  EVERYONE that sincerely enters into a marriage hopes that it will last forever.  NO ONE, even you , can know for sure.
KenC