Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[brad5959]

TBB,

like someone else in the thread said, you need to pick one girl and go for it.  Anna is your girl.  she wore a mini skirt and a see through blouse, she grabs your arm, she looks at you fondly--so what if she does not let you kiss her at the end of the date.  these women have radar--they can see right through you, and they feel you are insincere.  your attempt to control the frame and the game is very evident to them.  they know you are dating multiple women.  why should Anna give in to you, if you have not given in to her??  you need to throw your game book out the window and do the opposite.  open your heart to her, show her that you are sincere and vulnerable.  if she rejects you again, don't take it as a rejection.  what she is really saying, is that you have not adequately sold yourself to her, you have not overcome her objections (the 4th step to the sale).  have you qualified her properly??  (the 2nd step).  do you really know what her needs and wants are?  go back and ask her.  it's all about her at  this point, not you.  listen intently, and NEVER discuss past relationships.  she wants to know that you are sincerely, totally, completely into her.  maybe she is a virgin, how do you know??  at the very least, although she has clearly shown she likes you, she does not feel that you are sincerely reciprocating.  spend all remaining time with her.  buy her the most beautiful bouquet of red roses you can find.  buy her something small but special to her (you should know what is special to her if you have properly qualified her).  ask her what is her favorite restaurant and take her there.  ask her about her parents and friends and let her know that you want to meet them.  and lower your impulse control and let nature take its course!!  invite her into your apartment to show her some pictures of your family.  tell her you really admire a women who can cook and ask her if she would cook you some Borsht.  and Good Luck!!  don't let your trip be a bust!!

read this again, and than tell me what struck a nerve to you.  is your trip already a bust due to your lame game playing??

[Boethius]

I don't think anyone here is being pointlessly antagonistic.  

What you said is excellent, yet you forgot something very important.  

I disagree, with a qualifier.  If this is really who TBB is, if this is the way he thinks, then it was excellent and nothing more need to have been said.  Anna needs to know who the "real" TBB is.  However, every woman wants to hear she is beautiful to a man she desires.  

[BillyB]

My intent in writing a trip report is to help the community.  

You are helping people. What you do that doesn't help an individual rightly or wrongly will get criticized in various ways by that individual. I don't think I've ever read a poster who improved oneself so much as you've done in an effort to be a better man and be a better man for the ladies. Every person should attempt to better their lives to some degree for themself and those in their life.

As far as the issue of commenting on a lady's appearance, for me it's important to comment every lady on a date a minimum of one time but not too much to overdo it. The ladies spend a lot of time preparing, putting on cosmetics, choosing their clothes and making sure it all looks good.... for you, her date. She needs to know that you recognize that.

[TwoBitBandit]

As far as the issue of commenting on a lady's appearance, for me it's important to comment every lady on a date a minimum of one time but not too much to overdo it. The ladies spend a lot of time preparing, putting on cosmetics, choosing their clothes and making sure it all looks good.... for you, her date. She needs to know that you recognize that.

I actually did throw a number of compliments Anna's way.  I complimented her clothes, her sense of style, her ambition to do something with her life, her intelligence, and her unusual clarity about life.  I was just opposed to commenting on her beauty and I chose not to.

[brad5959]

so TBB, you are making bank in Silicone valley, you are driving a Porshe and you gloat over the demise of your former GF.  now who is the real asswhole??

on the other hand, Bryan Adams is one of the greatest romantic singers of all times.  he really bares his soul and lays it all out there.  he is SINCERE.  if you were just 10% as sincere, maybe you could at least get to first base.

ask Anna if she likes Bryan Adams.  no, don't ask her.  buy her a greatest hits CD wrap it in some special paper and give it to her with a nice flower bouquet.  up your game and your frame with some sincerity!!

[Daveman]

Well, the answer is yes, I’ve really loved a woman.  And Brad, you’re an аsshole.  And I mean that.

so TBB, you are making bank in Silicone valley, you are driving a Porshe and you gloat over the demise of your former GF.  now who is the real asswhole??

Tit and Tat.  Though the former is much more alluring, why not drop it at this point and get back to the objective of producing something productive?

[Boethius]

Read this again, TBB.  

So you already cast her in a mold and are acting in accordance with your preconceived notions.  Defensive behavior as is.  She is a unique person and doesn't give a damn what "type" she is in your mind.  She wants to be liked and adored and you are denying her that pleasure based on totally artificial and defensive considerations.  Comes across as rather weak and insecure if you ask me. 

P.S. By acting defensive with those who criticize you in this thread you are just proving my point. 

[brad5959]

So you already cast her in a mold and are acting in accordance with your preconceived notions.  Defensive behavior as is.  She is a unique person and doesn't give a damn what "type" she is in your mind.  She wants to be liked and adored and you are denying her that pleasure based on totally artificial and defensive considerations.  Comes across as rather weak and insecure if you ask me. 

P.S. By acting defensive with those who criticize you in this thread you are just proving my point. 

Blues Fairy is laying it out for you here.  this is the real deal.  "She (Anna) is a unique person...She wants to be liked and adored and you are denying her that pleasure...

[Lily]

I also tend to agree with what BF said, quoted by Boethius below.

You guys give great advice on how to make Anna feel better about herself. Complimenting her, giving her presents, enhance romantic feelings, etc. However, I believe that there should be some advice on how to get her like TBB more, not herself!

TBB did you asked her about what does she feel towards you? She may be shy to show it out, let alone to kiss you.

[brad5959]

Tit and Tat.  Though the former is much more alluring, why not drop it at this point and get back to the objective of producing something productive?

yes, and I went on to say that Bryan Adams is sincere.  learn from a Maestro singer and lover.  I think that that is productive.

[TwoBitBandit]

Day 8: Saturday, July 3

I slept hard today after being up late last night.  I get up at around 10.  The plan is to meet Rimma at 1 pm and Marina at 3 pm.  No plan for the evening, I guess I have to solve that.  There are basically three choices: Anna, the other girls I’ve met before (mainly Elena and Evgenia) and other girls.

Having slept a little bit, I’m a little bit more relaxed about the situation with Anna.  I just need to find a way to get the frame back.  So, I propose this: I’ll propose that we meet exactly at 6:30, we’ll go to the supermarket and then cook dinner together at my place.  I call her and no answer, so I send an SMS.

I get hold of Rimma, and she wants to meet me at 2 pm instead of 1 pm.  No problem, I’ll just push the 3 pm date to 4.  I get hold of Marina, but she’s at her dacha with her family and won’t be back until tomorrow.  I don’t quite get that, since we agreed just yesterday to meet today.  Anything that involves women just has a lot of randomness.  That’s just the way it is.

A couple of hours pass, no response from Anna.  At 1:30 I’m running out of time, if I want a date for the evening I have to start dialing soon.  I can’t very well go trolling for an evening date while I’m on my day date with Rimma. 

I call Anna, no answer.  Honestly, this is the last straw with Anna.  She’s got control of the frame and making me jump through all kinds of explicit and implicit hoops.  Has she completely lost interest and just not returning my calls?  If that’s what’s happening, keeping my evening free is a really dumb move.


So, I decided to call up Elena.  We agree to meet at 6 pm.  I leave the flat to go meet Rima.  She calls me at 1:55 to say she’s there.  I show up exactly at 2:00 and I recognize her.  The first thing I notice about her is that she’s about two feet tall.  Ok, maybe I’m exaggerating: she’s more like 5’0”.  But she’s otherwise pretty cute: she’s got brown hair and blue eyes and good skin.  She’s dressed stylishly in a white skirt and a black blouse.

We walk to a café.  We talk about the normal stuff: hobbies, family, languages, jobs, travel, Novosibirsk.  I’m hungry so I order a salad.  She just orders a fruit drink.  We seem to have good chemistry and eye contact.  She seems intelligent and interested.

Novosibirsk is hotter than I expected.  All my shirts are long-sleeve.  Short-sleeve dress shirts are considered sort of nerdy in the United States, but I see lots of Russians wearing them.  I do have a couple of linen shirts and I’m wearing one today.  They help since the fabric breathes, but it’s still hot.  So, I like to stay inside when it’s hot or go where there is lots of shade.  So, I suggest we go to zoo!  (For a third time).  My focus is on the interaction, not on the zoo.  I don’t want to go to a museum where it will be weird to have a conversation, and I definitely don’t want to walking down at the river embankment where there’s no shade.  The Novosibirsk zoo has lots of tree shade so it will be OK.  Rimma has a car so we just drive there.

In the zoo we start walking around and we have good conversation and chemistry.  I notice that as we walk together she’ll keep letting her shoulder bump into mine.  (Actually, it’s more like shoulder-to-elbow contact since she’s so short.)  We don’t have much eye contact, but I think that’s more because of her height.  At one point I hold her hand for a little while but I sense she’s uncomfortable so I let it go.  She plays with her hair a lot.  She seems happy to let me lead when I want to: when I suggest we sit in the cafe at the zoo for a minute, ride the Ferris Wheel at the zoo or backtrack to see the tigers we missed she goes along with it.

While we’re at the zoo my phone starts making noise.  I keep reaching into my pocket and hitting the button to turn it off.  I’m pretty sure it’s Anna.  Rimma asks about it since it happens several times and it’s obvious that someone really wants to get hold of me.  I tell Rimma that my focus is on her and whoever it is can wait until our time is done.

As we pass the bathrooms Rimma decides to go in.  I check my phone, and sure enough it was Anna.  I sent her quick SMS to say that since she didn’t reply I made other plans, but that I hope our communication continues and that I’ll write her when I get back to the United States.  (I was always vague about when I was leaving.)  And I’ll probably do that, but I’m not hopeful that it will go anywhere. I could have canceled my date with Elena to meet Anna, but that’s just not the way I roll.  If I tell Elena I’m going to meet her, I’m going to meet her.  Elena sent an SMS and wants to move our meeting to 8:00, I tell her no problem

We leave the zoo and go back to her car.  She drives me back to my flat since it starts to rain as we’re driving around.  When we get there, she says she had a good time with me and hopes we see each other again soon.  I sense she’s not going to take the kiss so I don’t go for it.  It’s about 5:30.

I liked Rimma: she’s intelligent and she has her act together.  I was attracted to her and I think she was attracted to me.  She’s fun to be with.  But she is sure Short with a capital S!

I go into my flat and chill out for a little and listen to the rain.  At 7:45 I head out to meet Elena.  We meet and start walking around.  She takes me to some nearby sights I hadn’t seen: a couple of churches, another theater, and a library with a ton of fountains in front of it.  It starts to rain again, and we head to the metro station to go back to Lenin Square. 

Elena is a little warmer than on previous nights.  She opens up a lot more verbally and her body language is open.  She plays with her necklace and hair a lot.  Our conversation has shifted mostly to English because she wants the practice.  I’m actually happy about that, because for me Russian takes a lot of thinking.  (What’s the perfective aspect of “to save”?  What’s the genitive plural of друг?)  I’m just plain tired and I invite the opportunity to be a little lazy.  Despite being tired, I also feel relaxed and joke around a Lena a lot and make up hypothetical situations… like that I’m going to buy a flat in that new building on the corner and then come and visit her every day with my pet Labrador who will be a good friend for her cat.  She laughs a lot and it’s a good easy time.

When we get there, the rain is a little lighter and we head to a sushi restaurant…the same one I was with Anna with a couple of nights ago.  The conversation gets slightly more serious, and we talk about jobs and about living abroad.  She told me a story about a friend of hers in France who got married and now has a son.

Afterward, we walk back to Lenin Square and I kiss her when we get to the metro station, and she’s gone.  I walk back to my flat.

It was an OK date, but I’m not sure how strongly I feel about her.  Sometimes our conversation is weird and we just don’t get one another.  She’s a psychologist by training and vocation and very intuitive which is the opposite of how I think.  Something about it just doesn’t “feel” right.  However, it was refreshing to have a fun date where I was not having to fight for the frame.

I’m not sure what to think about Anna.  I have the impression that she wouldn’t have jumped into the “meet me at 6:30 and we’ll cook dinner at my place” frame.  And I am tired of her controlling the frame: it’s just not going to move the relationship forward.  Her control of the frame was causing her to lose respect and interest in me.  In a way I feel a since of relief: all of the contradictory emotions I was having have subsided.  It’s unfortunate that I spent so much time chasing her for it probably to go to naught, but that’s sometimes the way these things go.  I feel much more relaxed.  As all the tension from that situation eases I've overcome with flat-out exhaustion.  I think I'm going to sleep good tonight.

As an aside, I’ve been trying to figure out how to live in Russia and still take most or all of my Silicon Valley salary with me.  If I could do that, it would make all of these problems much easier.   The problem that I have here (limited time) makes it really hard to keep control of the frame when I have a lot of interest in a girl.

I don’t have anything lined up for tomorrow, but I’m not worried.  I just need to started early and I think I can get a bunch for the same day.  Elena and I discussed going to the botanical gardens in Academgorodok in abstract terms but we’re not even sure if it is open on Sundays. (It’s an offshoot of Novosibirsk about ten miles away with some universities and research centers.)

[SFandEE]

buy her a greatest hits CD wrap it in some special paper and give it to her with a nice flower bouquet.  up your game and your frame with some sincerity!!

Anna's Journal Entry--I remain in control of the frame--although I may be frustrating TBB a bit much.  I will ease control tomorrow and respond in a more timely fashion to his communications.  He does seem like a nice man and he is clearly very successful in USA.  I hope he can find a way to move to Novosibirsk.

I believe the timing is right for a small gift gesture on his part--I hope he buys me a Bryan Adam's CD--wrapped in special paper and flowers would be nice too.  Of course, I will accept nice jewelry as well.  I need to make sure he associates gift giving as a way to get a good response from me.  I think I will allow for a longer hug this time and send a more confusing signal on a kiss--I wonder if he will try harder this time?

I wonder when he is returning to USA?

[TwoBitBandit]

I believe the timing is right for a small gift gesture on his part--I hope he buys me a Bryan Adam's CD--wrapped in special paper and flowers would be nice too.  Of course, I will accept nice jewelry as well.  I need to make sure he associates gift giving as a way to get a good response from me.  I think I will allow for a longer hug this time and send a more confusing signal on a kiss--I wonder if he will try harder this time?

   Exactly.

[Daveman]

Anna's Journal Entry--I remain in control of the frame--although I may be frustrating TBB a bit much.  I will ease control tomorrow and respond in a more timely fashion to his communications.  He does seem like a nice man and he is clearly very successful in USA.  I hope he can find a way to move to Novosibirsk.

I believe the timing is right for a small gift gesture on his part--I hope he buys me a Bryan Adam's CD--wrapped in special paper and flowers would be nice too.  Of course, I will accept nice jewelry as well.  I need to make sure he associates gift giving as a way to get a good response from me.  I think I will allow for a longer hug this time and send a more confusing signal on a kiss--I wonder if he will try harder this time?

I wonder when he is returning to USA?

LoL.. while that IS funny... and related to how some women probably think... I can't see how in the world giving flowers (or even some small gifts) can be considered as anything other than part of the natural dating process.   Creating neuro-associative responses is fodder for an entire forum... LoL

[brad5959]

LoL.. while that IS funny... and related to how some women probably think... I can't see how in the world giving flowers (or even some small gifts) can be considered as anything other than part of the natural dating process.   Creating neuro-associative responses is fodder for an entire forum... LoL

it is part of the natural dating process, for sure if you are sincere about a lady and you want to show it to her.  and I doubt if she would want some jewelry so soon, she doesn't come across that way.

[brad5959]

several years ago...

our OP is visiting a 99 cent store, and asks if they have any books on how to be successful in relationships with women.  bingo!!  not only do they have them, but they are 74% off!!

OMG!!  that's only two bits!!  hence our wise hero is born!!

[Seeker]

several years ago...

our OP is visiting a 99 cent store, and asks if they have any books on how to be successful in relationships with women.  bingo!!  not only do they have them, but they are 74% off!!

OMG!!  that's only two bits!!  hence our wise hero is born!!

Not cool dude.

I may not agree with a method, but I realize all people deserve a chance to pursue their own life the way they want to.

Just as you do.  Give him that right also, without the insults.

[brad5959]

was I not provoked with an uncalled for insult, after offering nothing but harmless constructive criticism??  of course he can pursue anyway and anyhow he wants to, and clearly he is determined to do just that.  unfortunately his trip is almost over....I and all the others would like to see him succeed in starting a romance, regardless of his inept attempts to control every little frame by frame of his experience in Novosibirsk.

[Seeker]

was I not provoked with an uncalled for insult, after offering nothing but harmless constructive criticism??  of course he can pursue anyway and anyhow he wants to, and clearly he is determined to do just that.  unfortunately his trip is almost over....I and all the others would like to see him succeed in starting a romance, regardless of his inept attempts to control every little frame by frame of his experience in Novosibirsk.

Can we just let the fights go?  There has been a lot of discussion here about topics that CAN and do start fights.  But so far, most just laugh it off and keep discussing.

It has been very interesting... from all sides.  Can we just keep it civil? Maybe you were just trying to be funny, but it wasn't, at least to me.  I have been guilty of this myself... so I am not on a pedestal here.  But please... keep it on topic AND civil... and that comment wasn't.

[Durk]

TwoBit
    Thanks for sharing your TR with all of us. I know some people have to pick on
everything someone else does. You can chalk that up to people that do not like
achievement. One of the main issues with society in general is very few people know
how to really contribute to the better of everyday life (slackers). If we would focus
on positive aspects of life and helping each other there would be more for everyone.
    Lil hit on a really good point concerning how you act,dress,etc. This attitude in
some respects is rare. People in general DO not know how to do this. I think the old
figure was something like 5%. Keep in mind that you also manage other sharp people
in your work.
     Blues Fairy also made a good point about being just yourself. You are giving off
a sense of being abnormal. If I here the words frame and game one more time I will
no longer read this thread. My god man relax and just have fun! You are way below
your league in one respect yet your dates exceed you in many ways.
    You have not given the ages of all the ladies, but I would be dating older girls.
  These younger girls just are not sure who you really are. How about Moscow or
St.Pete for cities to date in. You come from a larger urban area that is fast paced
why not give these girls a try.
    Speaking Russian to these women can be a plus, but as you said the one girl
enjoyed speaking English with you. You are an American be ONE for a change.
    Bandit I usually read your posts along with others here. I must say I am somewhat
surprised. I have to ask if you have a list for your life partner? If you do not I would
suggest you take some time and build one.
    You need to consider the source with some of the comments you have received.
One of the very reasons I DO NOT post here as often. The word DA? sure has many
uses from time to time.
     I think most of us want to see you have a rewarding trip. Time for you to put
some points on the board. Have fun with this OK!
      
 

[Speedbump]

From a total newbie, thank you TBB! This is one great thread and I have been reading it from beginning to end without a break.

My advice should be taken with a grain of sand but I'm rooting for Cha-Cha girl. Give her a twirl!

[TwoBitBandit]

My advice should be taken with a grain of sand but I'm rooting for Cha-Cha girl. Give her a twirl!

The funny thing about this process is that it really forces you to take a self-inventory and decide what is important.  It's easy to spend all your time chasing the hot girls and just burn cycles pointlessly. 

I was in the chat room with Daveman not too long ago, he also liked her from my description.  Evgenia is a positive, fun girl.  I tried calling her this morning and also sent her an SMS but never got hold of her.  Too bad, I wanted to meet her today.  She is the kind of girl I should be chasing.  I only wish she was a little taller.  I'll have to buy her some high heels.

[Misha]

I think of part of what’s in play here is that Anna is in the “hot” category and she knows it.  Since they receive so much attention, they play by different rules.  What works with a six can be very different from what works with a nine.

So, why isn't she married? Why doesn't she have a boyfriend? The fact of the matter is that most women in their mid-twenties in Russia tend to be getting some angst if there is no potential marriage partner or at least reliable boyfriend on the horizon. It seems to me that you are still applying a Silicon Valley logic to dating in Russia 

[SFandEE]

The funny thing about this process is that it really forces you to take a self-inventory and decide what is important.  It's easy to spend all your time chasing the hot girls and just burn cycles pointlessly. 

One of my major takeaways from this process.  With the chasing not only being in Russia or Ukraine, but anywhere, USA included.  What is important and what am I doing to realize what is important.  So easy to do in business, a bit more tricky in personal relationships.

[I/O]

My intent in writing a trip report is to help the community.

I "get" and applaud that but the real question is, what is the "intent of the trip"?