Going to St. Petersburg and.. ladies who will visit me this summer...

[Sculpto]

20 years ago I loved it too. Now I understand that it's too dirty to live in on a permanent basis. You are a suicide to wish this 

Show me a city without dirt and I will show you a place with a "dead soul".  Its the quality of dirt that makes the difference.. sure.. i can complain about dog poop on the canal trail.. and blood under the arches at the thieves market.. and puke next to the park bench on sunday morning.. but that simply means the place is living.. it means people do what they do without fear of a KGB sending them off to Siberia for walking their dog on the wrong side of the street..

Now.. you bring up an incredibly fascinating and confusing issue.  One afternoon I happened upon the view shown in the photo below.  There were two guys and one girl sitting by the tree (not in the photo but you know the tree).  I was literally in awe of the urban beauty of the location and began a conversation with the mentioned people.. who turned out to be an artist and an architect and the pretty girl model.. I commented at the beauty of the view and they dismissed my admiration with "nothing special we see it all the time".

I can not understand this mentality at all and I found it all over StP.  People simply with no appreciation for an absolute gem of a city.  It became my favorite topic to discuss with every local I met.. someone finally said.. "Its hyper depression"

[Gator]

The most interesting was the half dried pool of blood where apparently someone had been stabbed or shot the night before..

What you saw was the site where Uzbeki in the still of the night had slaughtered a goat for dinner.     Or maybe it was a sacrifice.

I am only half kidding.  My ex-wife contracted to have her Moscow flat remodeled.  The next day five Uzbeki men locked themselves inside her flat for two weeks with tools, building supplies, food and hot plate.  People complained of noise and odors, but never saw the men.

[Shadow]

It is very usual not to see the beauty of one's surroundings.
Visitors to my (Dutch) city always were exstatic about it being close to the see and having lots of trees and green areas. As inhabitant I never noticed them until I started watching other cities closely.

[Sculpto]

What you saw was the site where Uzbeki in the still of the night had slaughtered a goat for dinner.     Or maybe it was a sacrifice.

I am only half kidding.  My ex-wife contracted to have her Moscow flat remodeled.  The next day five Uzbeki men locked themselves inside her flat for two weeks with tools, building supplies, food and hot plate.  People complained of noise and odors, but never saw the men.

LOL I like it.  I want a crew like that to bring here to SF.. I will be a millionaire in a few months. 

[Sculpto]

It is very usual not to see the beauty of one's surroundings.
Visitors to my (Dutch) city always were exstatic about it being close to the see and having lots of trees and green areas. As inhabitant I never noticed them until I started watching other cities closely.

Maybe SF is different.. its really rare for a resident here not to feel extremely lucky.  Many blessings here.  This photo is from my last job site just outside the city.  It was not hard to work there.

[acctBill]

lol Turbo.. the interesting thing about the pool of blood was after I found it I was contemplating how I might take a photo of it.. but the store keeper came to the front of the store and was giving me dirty looks..

the dog poop along the grassy areas near the canals was a much more serious situation though.. or the puke in the park next to some of the benches.. sunday morning puke obstacle course was challenging..

lol

so you know.. I really love St Petersburg.. and SF is full of the same kind of messes.. please refer back to my post about bottom of the barrel people.. I love the downtrodden beaten down ugly people.. they are quite beautiful to me.  

photo 1 "Squatters in sandles"
photo 2 "Art Car"

Your "Squatters in sandles" look more like Gypsies or Roma (same thing different name).  They are common in St. Pete and sometimes in Moscow, although in Moscow they tend to get beaten up by skinheads if they can't out run them.  The Moscow police aren't too kind to them either.  My MIL still tells the story of being mugged by a group of Gypsies when she and her husband were in St. Pete in the late '90s.   

My MIL was waiting outside a store while my FIL bought something inside.  The store was by a canal and she was just watching life on the canal and didn't notice the Gypsies approach her.  They grabbed her purse and ran. She screamed and FIL came out of the store but by then they were gone.  Fortunately MIL doesn't carry her money in her purse so all she lost was keys, phone, photos and some other personal stuff.  To say my MIL really hates Gypsies is an understatement.

[Sculpto]

I doubt they are gypsies.. in Sennaya Plochad there were plenty of Gypsies begging.. all women with children.. they were distinct in appearance and a lot darker skinned than these guys..

anyway.. gypsies get the shaft wherever they live.. maybe they bring it on themselves.. I don't know.. they are indigenous people without a nation.

[Faux Pas]

I doubt they are gypsies.. in Sennaya Plochad there were plenty of Gypsies begging.. all women with children.. they were distinct in appearance and a lot darker skinned than these guys..

anyway.. gypsies get the shaft wherever they live.. maybe they bring it on themselves.. I don't know.. they are indigenous people without a nation.

Those gypsies have a nation and it is Russia. I saw similar gypsies in Piter, I also saw them in Moscow and in Siberia. Don't worry about the gypsies, a segment of the women and most of the children beg, it's what they do. I usually give them something to leave me alone but, I do it with a purpose, method and regiment. The kids are trained to break your heart and they are good at it. If you notice the men are never seen but never far away?

I love Piter. I have been to many world class cities all over the globe and none enthralled me as Piter did. I never have enjoyed the character of a city as I did Piter. It has everything but, to consider living there is completely out of the question

[Boethius]

Don't worry about the gypsies, a segment of the women and most of the children beg, it's what they do.

It depends on the "tribe".  Some Roma families (meaning all the families who live together) beg.  Some steal.  Some are musicians.  Some are traders.  To those that are traders, begging or stealing are absolutely unknown.

The photo is not of Roma.  They also aren't squatters.  They're fishing.

[Link]

Standard of life a man can provide?  Hmmm.. I didn't date ANY lady that expects the man alone to provide the standard of life.  And for that matter Velena, I wouldn't, and, I suspect many of the men on the forum have the same feelings about it.

So here is a reality for you to consider.. average people live average lives.  It doesn't matter from which part of the world an average person comes.. their life will be average simply because that is what they are capable of and therefore entitled to. 

If you, or anyone else, wants to have an exceptional life, they better be prepared to be an exceptional person.  To be an exceptional person is a special thing.  Not everyone is capable of being an exceptional person.  There isn't enough room in the world for all the people that dream to be exceptional.  However, dreaming to be exceptional and actually being exceptional are highly different things.  I have in my life been blessed with some exceptional qualities and have many people far more exceptional than myself as friends.  The one thing exceptional people have in common with each other is the ability to make their dreams come true via the combination of hard work and persistence.  There is nothing average about them.

So, in conclusion.. and I really do not want to insult you by saying it.. its really a general statement.. I don't know why any foreign man.. of average or exceptional talent and means.. would go to the FSU to marry a gold digging average woman with a pretty face and nothing more to offer.  Such a man would in my view be a loser only passed in his "loserness" by the woman who agreed to marry him.

By the way.. the thing about that juice.. as I said earlier.. its not the fact hat the juice was so expensive that bothered me.. its the fact that the really expensive juice was of extremely low quality not befitting my expectations of service and product at a five star establishment.  If the juice cost the 1 dollar per glass that it was really worth and still tasted so bad I would have the same complaint, but, the difference would be that I wouldn't feel like some *snip* in the back room was laughing at me for paying 12 dollars for 1 dollars worth of bad juice.

Interesting conclusions, I completely agree with them, while I am sure it is possible to find exceptional women or men from ANY nationality sometimes I think many men in these endeavors made the mistake to think that they can find quality women only in the FSU (or put your favorite region in the world here). While I am sure there are many sincere, honest Soviet women out there who are also good persons, there are also some Soviet girls who are GTG and Gold Diggers that laugh at the idea of a foolish western men that travels half way around to world to visit and court them,  while they can obtain economic benefits from them (fancy gifts, dinners, meals, cash, clothes, minutes in their mobile phones, etc, etc)  without giving nothing in exchange to him, not even a word saying "thanks", or "spacibo"  once they need that poor bastard no more, they can dispose of him like an old shoe, and be ready for the next one, while at the same time they are having fun with local  Soviet men who spend little or no money in them. Obviously the last statement can be applied to women and men from any part of the world not only the FSU.

P.S. Back to the juicy price, I remember in Russia a small bottle of water cost me 40 Rubles (20 Pesos) back at home the same bottle of water cost me 5 Pesos (10 Rubles).

[Vaughn]

once they need that poor bastard no more, they can dispose of him like an old shoe.....

 

[acctBill]

It depends on the "tribe".  Some Roma families (meaning all the families who live together) beg.  Some steal.  Some are musicians.  Some are traders.  To those that are traders, begging or stealing are absolutely unknown.

The photo is not of Roma.  They also aren't squatters.  They're fishing.

Boethius you might be right about the fishing which doesn't mean they can't be Gypsies. The Roma, Gypsies and travellers in England did pretty much everything you said, begged, traded (they were heavily into trading - legit or illegit) and stole. They also like a lot of other Englishmen liked to fish.

[Boethius]

Their features are not those of Roma.   There are a lot more Roma in Ukraine than in Russia, so I am very familiar with what they look like.

[Sculpto]

They also aren't squatters.  They're fishing.

My "squatter" reference has to do with the position of squatting.. not that they are taking illegal possession of a property.. peasants all over the world "squat" in that position.  Those guys are StP squatters that fish.. I have a lot more photos of fisherman. 

The question is.. and I know the answer.. Do they eat the fish? 

[Sculpto]

so I am very familiar with what they look like.

I have encountered Roma/Gypsies in Spain, France, Ukraine and Russia.  Those boys are not Roma.  There are, as I said earlier, a fair number of Roma women working the crowds in Sennaya Ploshad.  They have a distinct look.. darker features and almost middle eastern shaped nose.. also.. at least the women where wearing a distinct clothing style that set them apart from any Russians.  When I was in Spain and encountered male gypsies that were begging.. they too had a distinct clothing style.. the predominant feature of their clothing style.. same as the women in St P.. was that it appeared home made.  Spain was having a massive problem with them during the time I was there.  The city I was visiting.. Castellon, right in between Valencia and Barcelona with a population of about 120,000 was dealing with a gypsy camp that literally appeared over night and had 20,000 residents.  The city of Castellon was completely unprepared to deal with all those people and the rather xenophobic residents of Castellon, who were headlong into a language and culture "war" with the rest of Spain, were outraged by the presence of the gypsies and there were street fights taking place.

The Roma do not have their own country and to say so is to indicate little knowledge about them.  The closest thing they have to a home country is ROMAnia, however, they are hated by the Slavic ROMAnians.  ROMAnia has laws to protect the ROMA because the Slavic ROMAnians tend to discriminate against them. 

While I disapprove of the beggar lifestyle I admire the fact that the ROMA resist integration and remain essentially untamed people.  They are the epitome of self determination and freedom. 

[BC]

Show me a city without dirt and I will show you a place with a "dead soul".  Its the quality of dirt that makes the difference.. sure.. i can complain about dog poop on the canal trail.. and blood under the arches at the thieves market.. and puke next to the park bench on sunday morning.. but that simply means the place is living.. it means people do what they do without fear of a KGB sending them off to Siberia for walking their dog on the wrong side of the street..

Now.. you bring up an incredibly fascinating and confusing issue.  One afternoon I happened upon the view shown in the photo below.  There were two guys and one girl sitting by the tree (not in the photo but you know the tree).  I was literally in awe of the urban beauty of the location and began a conversation with the mentioned people.. who turned out to be an artist and an architect and the pretty girl model.. I commented at the beauty of the view and they dismissed my admiration with "nothing special we see it all the time".

I can not understand this mentality at all and I found it all over StP.  People simply with no appreciation for an absolute gem of a city.  It became my favorite topic to discuss with every local I met.. someone finally said.. "Its hyper depression"

Nope, it's called acclimatization.

You can live in a dirty city and soon your mind will start blocking out the dirt.. you simply will not notice it that awful much anymore.

Long ago they put a pair of glasses on a man that turned everything upside down.. within a month he was flying an airplane and the world was quite normal to him.. until he took them off and had to readjust.

When I lived in Germany, my apartment was above a little garage slaughterhouse used on Saturday mornings by the local butcher.  The occasional squeal and funny smell were not noticed after a month or two.

There is a town called Pozzuoli near Naples.. sits near a volcanic crater that smells like a stink bomb.. I guarantee you will ask yourself how people can live with that smell.. they do and guess what.. after a bit it can be even enjoyable and they say it is healthy.

Same with a beautiful woman.. live with that beauty every day and before long you won't really notice it as you did in the beginning.  Her looks may be the same the day you married, but she can appear quite ugly from time to time, or even forever.

The mind.. a funny place.  All is what you make of it.

[Sculpto]

Link.. I think you should give us a TR on your journey..

After this trip I will never again have a problem spotting the GTG, Gold Digger and worse yet.. the Nobility.  Yeah.. new classification.. Those girls are easily spotted.. the two dead give aways are.. the never make eye contact and the purse their lips.. I think they think it looks sexy.. but to me.. they just look stupid and superficial.. anyway.. that is a class of girl best avoided unless you have millions and only want a decoration for the passenger seat of your Ferarri or your arm at red carpet events.

BTW.. don't think that Russian rich guys don't spend big money on such girls.. the thing is.. they only spend AFTER they get what they want.. but how the heck do you think those girls pay for their $3000 fur winter coats?  Working in the Teremok?  

if you paid 40 ruble for a bottle of water it must have been the really small bottle.. lowest cost water I saw.. for a small bottle was 60 ruble and a 2 liters was 100 or 120 consistently.. and none of the fridges worked.. try warm bubbly water on a day with 40 degree temp.. real refreshing  

BTW Link.. there was one other thing I started doing that you reminded me about.  Whenever I encountered some of these always complaining Russians.. the ones that were telling me how terrible it is to live in St P and Russia in general.. because it is so poor and the government is so bad.. and these people were clearly miserable in their lives.. I started to think a bit about Mexico.. especially el sur.. and how most of the people I know there are far worse off economically than the Russians.. and the government they are dealing with is far more corrupt.. and the police and military are known for disappearing people.. and yet.. the average Mexicano is still smiling.. enjoying life.. finding reasons to celebrate and not complaining all the time.  It was in fact a rather successful strategy to get Russians to STFU about how bad their lives are.

What I really think it is.. is envy plain and simple.. I think the Russians believe they are entitled to something better than they currently have and are absolutely 100% clueless how to go about creating it.  Ok, I am done ranting and I do aplogize to the Russians for my scandalous comments.. but.. thats what this stupid American has seen over and over again and its quite frankly very annoying.    Last night I found a poll on a Russian site that asked the question.. "Where is better to live, Russia or America?"  The answers in general were beyond ignorant and showed me that for all the Russian bravado that Americans can't hang in Russia.. in fact.. most Russians can't hang in America.. because unlike the fantasy of streets paved in gold.. its damned competitive here and people work really hard to have the "easy life".  

Jet lag still..

Interesting conclusions, I completely agree with them, while I am sure it is possible to find exceptional women or men from ANY nationality sometimes I think many men in these endeavors made the mistake to think that they can find quality women only in the FSU (or put your favorite region in the world here). While I am sure there are many sincere, honest Soviet women out there who are also good persons, there are also some Soviet girls who are GTG and Gold Diggers that laugh at the idea of a foolish western men that travels half way around to world to visit and court them,  while they can obtain economic benefits from them (fancy gifts, dinners, meals, cash, clothes, minutes in their mobile phones, etc, etc)  without giving nothing in exchange to him, not even a word saying "thanks", or "spacibo"  once they need that poor bastard no more, they can dispose of him like an old shoe, and be ready for the next one, while at the same time they are having fun with local  Soviet men who spend little or no money in them. Obviously the last statement can be applied to women and men from any part of the world not only the FSU.

P.S. Back to the juicy price, I remember in Russia a small bottle of water cost me 40 Rubles (20 Pesos) back at home the same bottle of water cost me 5 Pesos (10 Rubles).

[kievstar]

Sculpto, you really think people work hard in Russia or America?  America is not competitive at all.  Reason why there more than 2 million skilled jobs no one in America is qualified for currently open. 

[Sculpto]

Kiev.. in my neck of the woods yes.. its highly competitive and there are some amazingly creative, talented and highly skilled people here.

As an example of what I mean..

A few years ago I was hanging out with a 25 year old from Kiev who had somehow gotten a green card visa and emigrated on her own.  In Kiev she managed a furniture store.. made a comfortable living and had what was in her view a good life.  When she got to SF the best she could do was baby sitting and later hourly sales girl.

She had no marketable skills here.. the only thing she could do with a computer was email.. etc..

Another example.. I have a Brit friend that worked for British Aerospace designing guidance systems.. when he got to America.. the best he could get was as a house painter.  Eventually he was able to break into tech work again.. but his problem was he didn't want to do military stuff and no one in the civilian sectors would hire him with only military technology experience.  it took him over five years to break through.

In this neck of the woods HTML, Java, Photoshop, Flash etc are now basic skills for entry level jobs.  If you want something that actually pays decent you better have some Microsoft certs or high level programming skills and then you are still at high risk these days of being outsourced.  I have one friend that is a programmer at Oracle and they have been sending him to India to train his own replacements.. he knows he is totally screwed.  For what he makes.. they will get five guys in India.  Fortunately for him he is old enough to take early retirement and he has some nice options. 

In my own case.. I have remained in the design/remodeling industry exactly because of the above described situations.  As more and more people have entered the high tech work force the demand for highly skilled artisans has grown.  I can make as much or more as a cabinet guy as someone who is doing java programming all day in a stuffy corporate office.  And i get to look at views like the one I posted earlier in the thread.  On the other hand.. I am learning  "carpenters Cantonese" because its a required skill in the building industry now and I already have the Spanish.   

But to get back to your original question.. yes I think people work really hard in the USA.  The fact that there are lots of highly skilled jobs that are unfilled has more to do with peoples ambitions and our educational system than it does with how tired people are at the end of the work day.  But.. a certain segment of the population seems to think schools and education aren't important and so now we have this situation to contend with.. but.. of course it creates a ripe market for immigrants which keeps labor costs.. even in high end labor.. down. 

Bean counters versus a happy society.. the MBAs who came up with our "new economy" are some real brilliant folks 

BTW.. I think certain segments of society in Russia work ridiculously hard.  Kiev you like to give the impression you are a high end guy.. I have a thousand bucks says if you spent one day on a job site with me you would not only be exhausted but probably crying too when you found out how stupid you are (at my job).    I have a story I often tell about smart guys who think they know everything...

So at one point I was producing for the retail market a CD Tower.  These towers were really popular and found their way onto the sets of several very popular tv shows and were being sold in five or six countries and almost every state.  They were made entirely from recycled materials and had 23 parts.  In our little "production line" it took just under an hour to complete one start to finish not including the painting.  So.. one day this guy comes in and wants a job.  I wasn't really hiring at the time.. but.. if I found someone with real talent I would always make space for them.  So, I showed him our product.. it really was nothing fancy at all.. kind of ugly even.. but.. I was putting almost 100,000 in my pocket for 3 months work so I loved those towers a lot.    So.. he took one look and said "oh thats easy, I can make one in an hour".  So, I said.. go for it dude.. thats you job application.. if you can make one in an hour I will pay you $50 an hour!  4 hours later he still hadn't even started assembling and he said.. "Eric, sorry but i have to go.. it was a lot harder than I thought, do I get the job anyway?"  I said no.. because.. if he had really been as skilled as he said.. he should have been able to do it in about 2 hours. 

So.. strip away your bravado Kiev.. strip away the advantages you have created for yourself.. and go back to the entry level.. and guess what.. people work really freaking hard to pay for the fuel and insurance and car payment and food and apartment rental or mortgage and a lot of people just barely get by every month.  A lot more than you think.  I think a lot of young Russians come over here with delusions of how life will be.. how it will be so much easier than in Russia and how money will just fall into their hands and when they are faced with the reality that the rent is due and that you can't get anywhere without a car and that when you have a job people actually expect you to work hard at it and WITH a smile and that you can't show up late or hung over and expect to keep your job... its a shock and then they go and post on some Russian language forums how bad it sucks in America. 

[Boethius]

The Roma do not have their own country and to say so is to indicate little knowledge about them.  The closest thing they have to a home country is ROMAnia, however, they are hated by the Slavic ROMAnians.  ROMAnia has laws to protect the ROMA because the Slavic ROMAnians tend to discriminate against them. 

I'm not sure who said they have their own country.  It is believed the Roma originated in India.  In Ukraine, they speak a completely different language.

Romanians are not Slavs.  Their language is a Romance language.

[Misha]

The Roma do not have their own country and to say so is to indicate little knowledge about them.  The closest thing they have to a home country is ROMAnia, however, they are hated by the Slavic ROMAnians.  ROMAnia has laws to protect the ROMA because the Slavic ROMAnians tend to discriminate against them. 

Sculpto, the name Romania comes from Rome not Roma. Though the Romanians have been influenced by their Slavic neighbors and have borrowed numerous words from Slavic peoples and are generally Orthodox, the Romanians speak a Latin language and see their origins in the Roman Empire. They are not Slavs per se and though many Roma live in Romania, the consensus is that the Roma came from India and historical records show that they first appeared in Europe in the Middle-Ages (roughly the 11th century).

[Sculpto]

I know.    I am just being me. 

[SANDRO43]

I am learning  "carpenters Cantonese"

If they yell "PLANK!", how would you know if they want a piece of wood, or just played a practical joke on you ?

[Gator]

The question is.. and I know the answer.. Do they eat the fish? 

Don't be silly.  They sell it to restaurants who make sushi for tourists from California.

[Gator]

If they yell "PLANK!", how would you know if they want a piece of wood, or just played a practical joke on you ?

      Clever!