Scam - or NOT a Scam ?

[Lazarus]

Just my opinion Dan.
If the FSUW (agency girl) will not supply you with her personal/work email or cellphone number (all FSUW have one) after an introductory letter and maybe a few follow-up letters, then she (the agency) is scamming you.
Period.

Laz

[BC]

The only way the word scam can be associated is if a person or company willfully schemes to defraud customers, members or other individuals using their service.

I skimmed http://www.anastasiaweb.com/Default.aspx?page=OurPolicy

Can anyone that is or has used their services, after reading their policies and service offers step forward and point out where they were defrauded?

[Daveman]

Expanding on this just a bit from my earlier post.

It seems easy enough to discern that the intent (or at least one of the intentions) of an agency is to generate revenue i.e. "make money." Given that, how does the agency's intent to generate revenue translate into scamming behaviors?

I wonder if we aren't struggling with the same issue the FTC struggles with in determining 'truth in advertising' claims? [If interested, definition here -- http://www.business.gov/business-law/advertising-law/truth-in-advertising/]

This is taking the position that unsolicited chat requests and emails are merely advertisements and not anything more.

- Dan

>> how does the agency's intent to generate revenue translate into scamming behaviors?<<

It doesn't, at least not at this point... the web front is the facilitator of interaction.


>>This is taking the position that unsolicited chat requests and emails are merely advertisements and not anything more.<<

I would even call it advertisement,per se, but rather an offer to "chat" or "email" with a woman.  There is no guarantee that any particular woman will have a romantic interest.  This critical difference is left up to the projection of the reader of the offer.

A sham would occur if the lady being "advertised" is not the actual lady participating in the interaction.  If she dictates the letters via telephone in Russian, she is still participating. If there is an employee answering all emails (or chatting) with the intention of manifesting the impression in the website user's mind that he is actually interacting with a different woman, that would we a sham (I think anyway) due to the deception (hoax) but still not scam as no real loss has occurred.

They offer interaction and fun, etc, with the possibility to find a mate (I think), and so far that appears to what the website user is receiving.

[Admin]

Just my opinion Dan.
If the FSUW (agency girl) will not supply you with her personal/work email or cellphone number (all FSUW have one) after an introductory letter and maybe a few follow-up letters, then she (the agency) is scamming you.
Period.

Laz

Your position is consistent with the RWD 10 Commandments numbers 3 and 4. I am not sure it is yet a scam, however. Recall upthread you promoted the notion that a loss of $$ needs to happen for it to be considered a scam. In this scenario, there is no loss of $$ as yet - or is there?

Also, there *is* a new wrinkle thrown in due to IMBRA which intentionally creates some 'insulation' between the AM and RW until various hurdles are crossed. This may delay the exchange of personal contact details for some time - and it is no fault of the lady or the agency.

- Dan

[Misha]

The only way the word scam can be associated is if a person or company willfully schemes to defraud customers, members or other individuals using their service.

I skimmed http://www.anastasiaweb.com/Default.aspx?page=OurPolicy

Can anyone that is or has used their services, after reading their policies and service offers step forward and point out where they were defrauded?

This point is particularly pertinent: "Anastasia International, Inc. is not responsible for the willful, or negligent acts and/or omissions of any Supplier or any of its respective employees, agents, servants or representatives including, without limitation, their failure to deliver services, or their partial or inadequate delivery of services."

Who are the suppliers?

"- Suppliers provide full, accurate and legitimate information required for the registration of the female Members at AnastasiaDate prior to their registration according to the terms of Agreement.
- Suppliers provide full, correct and quality translation of all correspondence of their female Members and their prospective soul-mates, Members of AnastasiaDate.com.
- Suppliers provide additional services (such as Flower delivery service, Apartment Rental service, Phone Introduction, Video Date or Date a Lady) in accordance to the terms of Agreement with Anastasia International, Inc."

In other words, suppliers provide virtually everything that Anastasia markets, yet Anastasia claims absolutely no legal responsibility for anything they do 

[Faux Pas]

This is the same screwball argument used in court concerning the pirates. No "piracy" occurred since nothing was stolen, no one was killed and the ship (US Navy w/300 sailors on board) was not actually seized.

The scam/con begins with the laying of the trap and not the completion of it.

BS ED. Your logic and argument is weak. Pirates and agencies aren't comparing apples to apples. Compare agencies to the purchasing of a "how to" book in meeting FSUW.

If the agency sells to you, contact with FSUW, and in your mind you expect to be dating and marry the women but do not. Who is at fault? The agency because you didn't or you for conjuring up fantasies (that they fostered in you to believe)? When Mr. Merchant sells you contact with FSUW and you have in fact have "said" contact. Their obligation is filled. The fact that you choose to buy more credits for more communication with a fantasy girl does not IMHO constitute a scam.

The "how to" book guarantees you you marry a FSUW if you buy, read and follow the instructions. You do so but do not marry, did the book scam you?

[tim 360]

Just my opinion Dan.
If the FSUW (agency girl) will not supply you with her personal/work email or cellphone number (all FSUW have one) after an introductory letter and maybe a few follow-up letters, then she (the agency) is scamming you.
Period.

Laz

What if the girl is not terribly interested in you?  But is willing to get to know you better through your letters?  Is that a scam?

[Daveman]

...

Also, there *is* a new wrinkle thrown in due to IMBRA which intentionally creates some 'insulation' between the AM and RW until various hurdles are crossed. This may delay the exchange of personal contact details for some time - and it is no fault of the lady or the agency.

- Dan

Does Anastasia claim to be a Marriage Broker?  If not, then IMBRA should not apply.  However, if the "Supplier" agency affiliated with them is classified as a marriage broker, then that agency would be required to comply with IMBRA.  Talk about a potential Mongolian fuster cluck.   Elena's does comply as they do promote marriage via their affiliates and/or ladies independent of an agency association, however, there do appear to be differences in promotion as well as in modus operandi...  beats the hell outta me.

[Lazarus]

Your position is consistent with the RWD 10 Commandments numbers 3 and 4. I am not sure it is yet a scam, however. Recall upthread you promoted the notion that a loss of $$ needs to happen for it to be considered a scam. In this scenario, there is no loss of $$ as yet - or is there?

....after an introductory letter and maybe a few follow-up letters,...

Purchasing "additional credits" to correspond costs money ($$).

Also, there *is* a new wrinkle thrown in due to IMBRA which intentionally creates some 'insulation' between the AM and RW until various hurdles are crossed.

If she is "into" you, you will know it.
Correct? 

Laz

[Lazarus]

What if the girl is not terribly interested in you?  But is willing to get to know you better through your letters?  Is that a scam?

She can "GET TO KNOW" you very easily through her private email address/cellphone.
Agree?

Laz

[tim 360]

She can "GET TO KNOW" you very easily through her private email address/cellphone?
Agree?

Laz

Maybe if she doesn't give you that info she is not that interested in you?  I don't see it as a scam.  You write a girl thousands of miles away a couple letters and you expect email/phone info and if she doesn't give it to you it is a scam???  Usually if a girl is interested in you she will give it to you. 

If you had a drink with a girl in a bar and she wouldn't give you her phone #...would that also be a scam?

[Lazarus]

You write a girl thousands of miles away a couple letters and you expect email/phone info and if she doesn't give it to you it is a scam??? 

ABSOLUTELY!

Usually if a girl is interested in you she will give it to you. 

AGREE COMPLETELY!


Laz

[Admin]

Does Anastasia claim to be a Marriage Broker?  If not, then IMBRA should not apply.  However, if the "Supplier" agency affiliated with them is classified as a marriage broker, then that agency would be required to comply with IMBRA.  Talk about a potential Mongolian fuster cluck.   Elena's does comply as they do promote marriage via their affiliates and/or ladies independent of an agency association, however, there do appear to be differences in promotion as well as in modus operandi...  beats the hell outta me.

I don't think it is the prerogative of the organization to opt-out of an IMB designation. The 'rules' for determining who/what is an IMB is contained in the legislation and is quite clear - and Aweb certainly qualifies as an IMB (and fails the two exemptions in the legislation).

In fact, Aweb claims it is due to IMBRA that they must remain engaged IN-BETWEEN the AM and RW during communication.

- Dan

[Admin]

Purchasing "additional credits" to correspond costs money ($$).

Fair enough.

If she is "into" you, you will know it.
Correct? 

Well . . . I guess it depends on your expectation. I would NOT expect any reasonable rational person to be "into" me based on a handful of emails or even calls.

Your reference to this followed my comment about IMBRA and I am unclear on the connection you were trying to draw. My point about IMBRA is that it definitely inserts the agency into the communication process - by statute. That is not the fault of the agency and not the fault of the RW, hence, cannot be said to be scamming behavior. Do you agree?

- Dan

[Admin]

This point is particularly pertinent: "Anastasia International, Inc. is not responsible for the willful, or negligent acts and/or omissions of any Supplier or any of its respective employees, agents, servants or representatives including, without limitation, their failure to deliver services, or their partial or inadequate delivery of services."

Who are the suppliers?

"- Suppliers provide full, accurate and legitimate information required for the registration of the female Members at AnastasiaDate prior to their registration according to the terms of Agreement.
- Suppliers provide full, correct and quality translation of all correspondence of their female Members and their prospective soul-mates, Members of AnastasiaDate.com.
- Suppliers provide additional services (such as Flower delivery service, Apartment Rental service, Phone Introduction, Video Date or Date a Lady) in accordance to the terms of Agreement with Anastasia International, Inc."

In other words, suppliers provide virtually everything that Anastasia markets, yet Anastasia claims absolutely no legal responsibility for anything they do 

This is a VERY valid point, though I think it takes us afield from the task of defining exactly what is, and what is not, a "scam."

The issue you raise Misha is one of agency management. In some ways this is not unlike an organization such as Amazon.com who 'fronts' for numerous other suppliers - even with the same goods inventoried by Amazon. I know some will find it offensive that I use 'goods' to describe the business model - but I am addressing merely the business model and its organization.

Ask yourself if you were to be an owner of an agency - would you 'contract' with suppliers (feeder agencies) to help you with recruitment and local management? What form would those contracts take - and what fundamental elements would they include? What rights to control those feeder agencies would you hold - and how would you enforce them?

These are but a few of the myriad problems an agency like EM or Aweb face. How would YOU propose to deal with these issues?

- Dan

[ECOCKS]

She can "GET TO KNOW" you very easily through her private email address/cellphone.
Agree?

Laz

Yes, although I can understand that each woman will have a different comfort level to be reached before they are comfortable giving that information. After all, they don't know but what you are a crazed stalker/serial killer already in their country. I don't blame them for being wary, but.......

If they wait too long to give it, they may lose the guy. Conversely, if the guy expects it to soon then they lose the girl.

A lot like sex. heh?

Oh well.   

[ECOCKS]

BS ED. Your logic and argument is weak. Pirates and agencies aren't comparing apples to apples. Compare agencies to the purchasing of a "how to" book in meeting FSUW.

BS FP. It IS the same thing. If I am on my ship, ready to stop pirates, a boatload approaches and opens fire on me in mid-ocean, they're pirates, not itinerant gypsies hoping for a handout. Another great example BTW, a beggar is a beggar even before you hand them the money. If I am looking for a relationship leading to marriage, respond to a solicitation to join a website which purports to assist me in finding women interested in marriage and I am approached by women telling me that they are looking for someone like me for marriage but in fact have no interest in any type of relationship other than their financial one with their employer, they're scammers, not B girls in a saloon.

Other good examples, a hooker is a hooker whether you engage her services or not, a commission-only salesman is a salesman whether you purchase their product/services or not, a policeman is still a policeman whether he arrests you or not, a student is still a student whether they learn anything or not. That gal who went to the call center and sat down at a keyboard knowing she was never leaving Ukraine to marry some American IS a scammer. The key point in all this, whether they are pirates, scammers or hookers is the definition being applied to the situation. For many the scam starts when the approach is made, not when the scam is engaged by the victim. Prosecutors and legislators, just like lexicographers, screw up and make mistakes when they are determining definitions.

If the agency sells to you, contact with FSUW, and in your mind you expect to be dating and marry the women but do not. Who is at fault? The agency because you didn't or you for conjuring up fantasies (that they fostered in you to believe)? When Mr. Merchant sells you contact with FSUW and you have in fact have "said" contact. Their obligation is filled. The fact that you choose to buy more credits for more communication with a fantasy girl does not IMHO constitute a scam.

The "how to" book guarantees you you marry a FSUW if you buy, read and follow the instructions. You do so but do not marry, did the book scam you?

If it says "money-back guarantee if you aren't married in X days/weeks/months/years" then yes they owe me my money back or it was a scam. If they have any other disclaimers they better put it in the warranty.
[

[Faux Pas]

ED,

I don't buy it. None of your other examples are in fact, examples. Pirates, hookers and students still do not apply here. In my mind, in order to have a scam you would have to have a victim. A customer is not a victim unless he did not receive what was previously agreed on for the price paid. According to your logic, the mere thought of separating a fool from his money is a scam. Regardless of the "actual facts" where the fool still has his money

[GQBlues]

LOL. I don't know about Somali pirates...sheessh 

But FP, based on your argument then, WE would all have to be victimed by AW to regard the agency as a scam agency. Even if the sentry we decide to send do get scammed, doesn't mean it would be right to label the agency as a scam agency because not all of its members, past and present, had been victimed (?).

This is why I would argue the very notion of the 'act' or 'effort to scam', successfully or otherwise, is enough for me...

[Lazarus]

Well . . . I guess it depends on your expectation. I would NOT expect any reasonable rational person to be "into" me based on a handful of emails or even calls.

I would normally agree with your assessment, but through my personal experiences in the FSU, I have observed that any decent FSUW that sees you as a "potential" (keyword potential) date, will already be thinking about you wasting your money.
True?
Just my personal observations.....FWIW Dan.

Laz

[SANDRO43]

I think we're quibbling as to when the actual scam occurs, some maintaining only after a disbursement of money occurs, others in the intentions and/or preparations thereof.

Maybe we're influenced by our local laws. In our case, a group of citizens burrowing next to a bank vault will be arrested and convicted for ATTEMPTED BURGLARY - digging tools and implements for a break-in are considered sufficient evidence for that .

[Faux Pas]

I think we're quibbling as to when the actual scam occurs, some maintaining only after a disbursement of money occurs, others in the intentions and/or preparations thereof.

Maybe we're influenced by our local laws. In our case, a group of citizens burrowing next to a bank vault will be arrested and convicted for ATTEMPTED BURGLARY - digging tools and implements for a break-in are considered sufficient evidence for that .

Those doing the burrowing no doubt guilty. But, the man the next building over possessing the same digging tools isn't  

My only point of contention is, for a scam to have occurred, there would need to be a victim. If one party enters into an agreement with another to supply contact with women and then delivers on his promise, no scam has occurred. A scam occurs where the party makes promises and doesn't deliver after the money has changed hands

[Jooky]

I am particularly perplexed by Jooky and Gator reporting no 'email' in their Inbox upon completing the registration.

I know have 9 messages in my inbox, most from hot girls 18-23. I think it's a matter of timing when then these messages get set out.

Whether you want to call it technically a fraud or scam, I can see already this site is designed to be a huge rip-off.

At $4.00 per email you can lose a lot of money quick.

[SANDRO43]

Those doing the burrowing no doubt guilty. But, the man the next building over possessing the same digging tools isn't 

Unless they can prove he absent-mindedly went to the WRONG building, was looking at a loss in that location, and could not explain why he wanted to remodel drastically a cellar he had no title to .

Which reminds me of a popular song from 1972:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHOi9yuAzOk[/youtube]

Faceva il palo nella banda dell'Ortica: he was sentry in the Ortica (a borough in Milan's outskirts) gang. But he was almost blind, that's why they caught them all, except for him. He was staring fixedly into the night, when police, 3 Carabinieri and a night watchman passed him by, but he didn't bat an eyelid, not even a twitch, etc. etc.

[Lazarus]

I know have 9 messages in my inbox,....At $4.00 per email.....

If RWD has $36.00 in petty cash, we can find out if fat yuri has improved his writing skills. 

Laz