Cultural vs Behavioral differences

[BC]

In a recent and disheartening thread:

I think people should be careful about attributing "cultural differences" to every failed FSU marriage though.

I found this comment quite interesting.  I honestly think cultural differences play a very subordinate role in international relationships.  Looking back, after 8 years, the only real cultural differences I have noted are:

I don't whistle in the house anymore.

A few religious icons strewn around the house.

Different foods being cooked.

TV is usually tuned to a different channel, music that plays on the stereo is different.

Language used is different.

A few extra holidays being celebrated.

Other than those above, it's kinda hard to identify other 'real' cultural differences that would have a real impact on relationships.

When it comes to behavioral items though there are quite a few I believe do fall into the realm of international family 'issues' that can and do become problems.  Just to name a few where ideas and goals may diverge:

Child rearing techniques.

Types of punishment.

Handling of responsibilities.

Financial responsibility.

Family roles and rules of engagement.

This of course just the tip of the 'berg IMHO and will leave space for others to chip in their ideas and experience.

This thread is not meant as a relationship postmortem, instead just provoking some thoughts along the line that many, even the best of us can confuse cultural vs behavioral issues.  Maybe there is a tendency of WM to draw lines in the sand that put them in position of initially accepting otherwise unacceptable behavior with a veil of 'culture' that disappears later in the relationship?

[Boethius]

I largely agree with you, though I think child rearing is, to some extent, cultural.  The love one gives children isn't, but reactions to the outside world are partly shaped by one's culture.

[BC]

I think child rearing is, to some extent, cultural.  The love one gives children isn't, but reactions to the outside world are partly shaped by one's culture.

Interesting as this is one aspect I consider to be totally behavioral with very little, if any relationship to culture.. care to expound a bit?

[Daveman]

This of course just the tip of the 'berg IMHO and will leave space for others to chip in their ideas and experience.

This thread is not meant as a relationship postmortem, instead just provoking some thoughts along the line that many, even the best of us can confuse cultural vs behavioral issues.  Maybe there is a tendency of WM to draw lines in the sand that put them in position of initially accepting otherwise unacceptable behavior with a veil of 'culture' that disappears later in the relationship?

Behavior is similar to the solution of an equation with all of the (virtually infinite) variables being an integral part. Culture is just a variable, or an array of variables (though some would consider it a constant, it really isn't as first culture must me defined, interpreted, extrapolated through the individual perception of surrounding experience, recorded, conditioned, redefined by more perception of experience, etc.,so it, too, varies on the curve). Birth order can be considered another. Blah blah..  etc. etc.

A woman growing up in a small town religious community can have a significantly different cultural experience and stemming definitions than say a very similar woman growing up in a large city atheistic environment.  

So, yes, lumping up all differences together as inconsequential cultural dust and sweeping them under the relationship rug early on can have serious consequences later as real differences or behavioral patterns have not been addressed though they most assuredly will be at some point.

[ECOCKS]

I agree that this (blaming extraneous factors) is true for many failed couples.

If the relationship was bad, all sorts of excuses will be tried, In-Law interference, differences in raising kids, religious viewpoints, homesickness, etc. Most people just discover they aren't as happy as they deluded themselves that they would be based upon some fantasy-picture of what they thought would happen.

Behavioral issues ALWAYS are present when two people form a new household. For whatever reason, fewer families survive today than in the past. Probably due to lower attention spans, media portrayals and general "me-first" approach of people. Inability to cope with these changes and the resulting realization that you're not who you thought you were are often a blow and it is somewhat to be expected as people lash out, looking for "reasons" to avoid accepting responsibility for their own poor judgment.

[Boethius]

I agree with you, Dave.

Interesting as this is one aspect I consider to be totally behavioral with very little, if any relationship to culture.. care to expound a bit?

People tend to raise their children based on their own experiences.  Some of those experiences are cultural.  That includes discipline, and the roles of parents.  However, I'll give you examples of mundane issues.  In North American culture, organizing playdates having friends over to your house, sleepovers, etc. are normal for children.  In other cultures, some, or all of these activities are not.  In some cultures, allowing your children to wander the streets alone all day is normal, in others, it is not.   It's not even country cultural differences.  I see these differences in people raised in cities vs rural/small town environments, but those are also "cultural".

[Boethius]

I agree, Ed, though I believe the divorce rate in the US is lower now than it was in the 1970's.  However, I also think it is also more socially acceptable to divorce than it was 50 years ago.

[GQBlues]

It would be very interesting to get feedback from WMs who:

1. Engaged to a FSUW and is convinced he knows all there is to know about living life with someone from another culture.

2. Just got married and is still in the honeymoon phase, and convinced he already knows all there is to know about living life with someone from another culture.

3. Just had a child with his FSUW and enjoying the period of being 'Dad' and convinced he already know all there is to know...

4. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and convinced he knows all there is know about living life with someone from another culture..

5. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and now supporting the newly arrived in-law/in-laws..

6. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and now supporting the newly arrived in-law/in-laws who doesn't speak a lick of English (your language), nor cares to learn.

7. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and supporting the newly arrived in-law/in-laws who doesn't speak a lick of English (your language), nor cares to learn, and is now actively involved in raising your child/children.

8. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and supporting the newly arrived in-law/in-laws who doesn't speak a lick of English (your language), nor cares to learn, and is now actively involved in raising your child/children, and these child/ren need to learn English in their very early development stages is no longer front and center...

9. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and supporting the newly arrived in-law/in-laws who doesn't speak a lick of English (your language), nor cares to learn, and is now actively involved in raising your child/children, and these children need to learn English is not as important as it is to learn Russian but are now attending school with other ENGLISH speaking children and is/are having a tough time relating to other children...

10. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and supporting the newly arrived in-law/in-laws who doesn't speak a lick of English (your language), nor cares to learn, and is now actively involved in raising your child/children, and the hubby is slowly realizing he's becoming a stranger in his own house..

You call the dynamics in these marriages to whatever makes you feel better, behavioral/cultural, but I can assure you this is what is happening to couples we know in very recent times, almost to a 'T', and they are all falling apart, or had fallen apart.

[Misha]

Family roles and rules of engagement.

The family roles is essential, notably the role of the future mother-in-law. In my experience, some RW are extremely reliant on their parents emotionally. They cannot imagine life without them and they are extremely dependent. I would say that it is partly cultural: in North American culture, independence is generally highly prized. It is something we expect from the wee years. In Russia, this is less the case. Consequently, IMHO, many Russians (men and women) cannot truly live their lives without their parents, and too often the foreign husband will be the outsider.

My advice: never marry a woman until you understand her relationship with her parents. Ask questions: will she want to bring her parents over after marriage? How often will she want to visit her parents? What kind of relationship does she have with her mother? Does she turn to her mother for advice? Does she believe it is important to live up to her parent's expectations? Etc...

You also have to meet the parents. Spend a lot of time with the parents. Observe the relationship. See how your potential future MIL treats you.

I, personally, specifically looked for a woman who was independent. I looked for a woman who did not want to live with her family. I looked for a woman who had made her own life without her parents. I looked for a woman who made her own decisions and did not defer to her parents opinion. I also looked for a woman with a mother that I liked and got along well with.

IMVHO, if a man is a dating a woman who is very dependent on her parents (i.e. a momma's girl or a daddy's girl), if her parents are always telling her and you what to do, and if you do not really get along, then in such cases, YOU SHOULD BOLT AND RUN.

[Boethius]

You call the dynamics in these marriages to whatever makes you feel better, behavioral/cultural, but I can assure you this is what is happening to couples we know in very recent times, almost to a 'T', and they are all falling apart, or had fallen apart.

She learns that marriage to this man is not what she expected.  He is not the provider she anticipated, she needs help with the kids, etc.  Kids, in many respects, highlight the strengths or weaknesses of a marriage.

Not knowing English is no big deal, millions of kids enter school with no English language abilities, and learn within a few months.  Kids will absorb a language quickly.  Further, if an English speaking father is interacting with his children, they will learn English.

If a man feels he is a stranger in his own home, he is to blame.

[Daveman]

10. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and supporting the newly arrived in-law/in-laws who doesn't speak a lick of English (your language), nor cares to learn, and is now actively involved in raising your child/children, and the hubby is slowly realizing he's becoming a stranger in his own house..

You call the dynamics in these marriages to whatever makes you feel better, behavioral/cultural, but I can assure you this is what is happening to couples we know in very recent times, almost to a 'T', and they are all falling apart, or had fallen apart.

GQ, I understand the picture you paint there... how in the world do all these guys wind up in this situation with the in-laws living with, being supported by, etc etc... ??  From your experience, would you say this is their (her, or her and family) plan from the get go? 


 

[Daveman]

The family roles is essential, notably the role of the future mother-in-law. In my experience, some RW are extremely reliant on their parents emotionally. They cannot imagine life without them and they are extremely dependent. I would say that it is partly cultural: in North American culture, independence is generally highly prized. It is something we expect from the wee years. In Russia, this is less the case. Consequently, IMHO, many Russians (men and women) cannot truly live their lives without their parents, and too often the foreign husband will be the outsider.

My advice: never marry a woman until you understand her relationship with her parents. Ask questions: will she want to bring her parents over after marriage? How often will she want to visit her parents? What kind of relationship does she have with her mother? Does she turn to her mother for advice? Does she believe it is important to live up to her parent's expectations? Etc...

You also have to meet the parents. Spend a lot of time with the parents. Observe the relationship. See how your potential future MIL treats you.

I, personally, specifically looked for a woman who was independent. I looked for a woman who did not want to live with her family. I looked for a woman who had made her own life without her parents. I looked for a woman who made her own decisions and did not defer to her parents opinion. I also looked for a woman with a mother that I liked and got along well with.

IMVHO, if a man is a dating a woman who is very dependent on her parents (i.e. a momma's girl or a daddy's girl), if her parents are always telling her and you what to do, and if you do not really get along, then in such cases, YOU SHOULD BOLT AND RUN.

Blues Fairy has mentioned something very similar (from her FSUW perspective) many times. Both you and she are absolutely correct. 

[Seeker]

She learns that marriage to this man is not what she expected.  He is not the provider she anticipated, she needs help with the kids, etc.  Kids, in many respects, highlight the strengths or weaknesses of a marriage.

Not knowing English is no big deal, millions of kids enter school with no English language abilities, and learn within a few months.  Kids will absorb a language quickly.  Further, if an English speaking father is interacting with his children, they will learn English.

If a man feels he is a stranger in his own home, he is to blame.

I wanted to disagree with this at first... but the more I thought about, based on my own experience, I was to blame.  I allowed it to happen.  And not in the sense I should always be in control and my wife should always obey me.  In the sense I allowed the MIL to take control of my wife and child without standing up to her.

Sometimes I think it is just being too nice and forgiving.  I let it get to a point where mom ran the show (at least in my wife's mind) and since she had always been a confirmed man-hater... guess where I ended up?  And she didn't even live with us!  Just close.

It is a tough path to follow... marriage in general.  Much easier with hindsight like anything else.  And part of it is making better choices from the beginning.  I saw the problems with her mom from the start.  Just thought it wouldn't matter.   

Edit to add:  This was a domestic relationship.... so I guess I am saying 'behavioral' is how I see it.  At least in the MIL sense, it is cross culture.

[tim 360]

It would be very interesting to get feedback from WMs who:

9. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and supporting the newly arrived in-law/in-laws who doesn't speak a lick of English (your language), nor cares to learn, and is now actively involved in raising your child/children, and these children need to learn English is not as important as it is to learn Russian but are now attending school with other ENGLISH speaking children and is/are having a tough time relating to other children...

10. Have had some time having a family, as husband to a FSUW & father to their child...and supporting the newly arrived in-law/in-laws who doesn't speak a lick of English (your language), nor cares to learn, and is now actively involved in raising your child/children, and the hubby is slowly realizing he's becoming a stranger in his own house..

You call the dynamics in these marriages to whatever makes you feel better, behavioral/cultural, but I can assure you this is what is happening to couples we know in very recent times, almost to a 'T', and they are all falling apart, or had fallen apart.

Sounds like a Hitchcock film.  Not a healthy or pretty picture GQ.  Do you encounter many of these in your SoCal area?

[JohnDearGreen]

Not knowing English is no big deal, millions of kids enter school with no English language abilities, and learn within a few months....

Another generalization.   Really depends on the intelligence of the child and how hard they work.  ESL is an added expense for many schools and they will only supply ESL training until the child has a passing ability (doesn't flunk the tests) and then they are thrown in to regular classes.   They are not allowed to hold back a child in the same grade simply for ESL reasons only no matter how bad they do, so some kids who are performing at a 4th grade level might move on up to 6th grade and never be able to catch up.  There must be some reason English is taught for 8 years (grades one to eight) and it is highly unlikely someone will catch up on 8 years within a few months.  It is a big deal.

[Boethius]

There are millions of kids who go to schools annually with no English language ability, and within months, are speaking English fluently.  Children have abilities to absorb language that adults do not have.  

I went to school in the inner city.  We often had new immigrant children placed in our classes, with no English language skills, and long before "ESL" even existed.  All those children were speaking English fluently by the end of the school year.

I don't know where your kids go to school, but English is no longer taught in schools where I live.  Grammar is no longer taught.  Sentence structure is taught, all the way to high school.

[JohnDearGreen]

I don't know where your kids go to school...

I live in Dallas county where there are more Hispanic people than Caucasian.

[Gator]

So we don’t call it cultural. Whatever you call it, RW behavior is not concentric with AW behavior. 

In some ways this is good, very good. 

With others, suffice it to say some accommodations are necessary in any marriage, and why get all worked up if the impact is modest. 

And with a few, the old adage about choosing your battles wisely comes to my mind.  This introduces another difference.  A RW’s use of the tactics “withdrawal” or “relentless siege” is not a productive form of conflict resolution.  A working man has only so much time in a day.

[Boethius]

So we don’t call it cultural. Whatever you call it, RW behavior is not concentric with AW behavior.  

In some ways this is good, very good.  

With others, suffice it to say some accommodations are necessary in any marriage, and why get all worked up if the impact is modest.  

And with a few, the old adage about choosing your battles wisely comes to my mind.  This introduces another difference.  A RW’s use of the tactics “withdrawal” or “relentless siege” is not a productive form of conflict resolution.  A working man has only so much time in a day.

I disagree.  Part of the problem on message boards is this 100% approach.  Human relations are rarely a 100% sum game.

RW don't have one uniform approach or behaviour.  Neither do all AW.  There are AW who practice "withdrawal" and "relentless siege", and FSUW who resolve problems through discussion and compromise.  Same with AM and FSUM.  It all comes down to the individuals involved.

[Gator]

Boethius, of course everyone is different.  I used the term "concentric," implying that only a circle and not a small dot would encompass all individuals.   I assert that the center of a circle for RW behavior is not concentric with the circle for AW behavior.  Is there overlap?  For sure.

[Gator]

Now it is my turn to disagree with you.

There are millions of kids who go to schools annually with no English language ability, and within months, are speaking English fluently.

Fluently?  Speaking fluently because of TV, music, etc.  Yet spelling, writing and reading are important too.  My experience is that while young minds are indeed like sponges, they don't keep up with the norm of those whose native language is English.  Over 2-3 years they catch up. 

Then again my experience was with two kids whose mother did not spend a lot of time helping them.  Scolding them, yes.  Truly helping them, no.   Does it sound like a typical RW mama?

[Boethius]

Your stepchildren were older, though, when they came, Gator.

A child starting kindergarten, or first grade, will catch up much more quickly.

No, it is not typical for a mother to scold, and not help.  My SIL used to spend hours each night with her son, helping him with his homework, and he used to read aloud to her.

[GQBlues]

She learns that marriage to this man is not what she expected.  He is not the provider she anticipated, she needs help with the kids, etc.  Kids, in many respects, highlight the strengths or weaknesses of a marriage.

Sometimes Boethius, in your haste to try to be a contrarian, you even start to contradict yourself without realizing it.

Part of the problem on message boards is this 100% approach.  Human relations are rarely a 100% sum game.

I'm certain your last remark wasn't meant to ever apply to you, correct?

If a man feels he is a stranger in his own home, he is to blame.

...and that, I'm certain, wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.

Not knowing English is no big deal, millions of kids enter school with no English language abilities, and learn within a few months.  Kids will absorb a language quickly.  Further, if an English speaking father is interacting with his children, they will learn English.

Go tell that to those couples at this very stage of their marriages. Tell that to the million of inner city kids that are having an incredibly difficult time meshing with other kids let alone participate in their learning process due to language alienation. Especially pre-school children/first-second graders, who's language skills are in its developmental stages. If you think, seen, believe, experience these instances do not have a very significant negative effect on children with their ensuing social behavior, then OK - if you'd feel better about yourself to believe you're right, then more power to you.

However, there's enough hispanic communities in and around the southwest region of the US that easily tells me I don't need to defend my position. For most of these kids, while they may eventually learn to speak English, more often than not, the damage had been done and they do have difficulties meshing with the society at large. It is little wonder most children of illegal aliens, or of immigrants who never felt they belong to this society - continue that legacy for generations.

No one is implying this happens to every single one. It is happening to every one WE know about in different degrees but do have a common denominator: language, very young child/children, FSUW wife, FSU in-laws. Marital problems. Period.

Now, we can discuss some of these dynamics for the board and people can take away from it whatever they wish, or, YOU can just make the decisios for all of us and simply dismiss it because Boethius said so....

How'bout it?

[Boethius]

Sometimes Boethius, in your haste to try to be a contrarian, you even start to contradict yourself without realizing it.

Nothing in that post contradicted itself.

I'm certain your last remark wasn't meant to ever apply to you, correct?

I don't believe in 100% views in personal relationships.  Opinions are a different matter.

...and that, I'm certain, wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.

No, it wasn't.  It was actually a response to your series of descriptions.  If it is aimed at anyone, it is whatever friend you were describing.

Go tell that to those couples at this very stage of their marriages. Tell that to the million of inner city kids that are having an incredibly difficult time meshing with other kids let alone participate in their learning process due to language alienation. Especially pre-school children/first-second graders, who's language skills are in its developmental stages. If you think, seen, believe, experience these instances do not have a very significant negative effect on children with their ensuing social behavior, then OK - if you'd feel better about yourself to believe you're right, then more power to you.

GQ, my sister teaches at an inner city school.  She has no ESL aide in her class full time.  For the past decade, she has had, in each year, 2 or 3 students in her class with no English language skills, either in the first or second grade.  She has told me that by year end, they have no issues.  Their issues are usually in the first 3 months.  Kids are very accepting and helpful to them.  Most of her students in the past five years have been from China, and most ended up being the top student on graduating elementary school.

However, there's enough hispanic communities in and around the southwest region of the US that easily tells me I don't need to defend my position. For most of these kids, while they may eventually learn to speak English, more often than not, the damage had been done and they do have difficulties time meshing with the society at large. It is little wonder most children of illegal aliens, or of immigrants who never felt they belong to this society - continue living the same path.

That's not a language issue, but an integration issue.  Why don't Canadian immigrant children have those same problems?

I grew up in a bilingual home.  My father speaks only English.  I learned English from him.  Any American father who is facing this issue can resolve it easily be speaking English to his child.  Problem solved.

No one is implying this happens to every single one. It is happening to every one WE know about in different degrees but do have a common denominator: language, very young child/children, FSUW wife, FSU in-laws. Marital problems. Period.

If there are language issues, the AM should never have sought a FSUW to begin with.  And, as SJ pointed out, they should have discussed this before having children.  

Men who have FSU in law problems allow this to happen, in one way or another.  

I knew a Filipino man who had in law problems, in that his wife spent an inordinate amount of time with her parents, and called them daily.  He delivered his wife to his in laws' door, and said "Here, she would rather live with you than with me."  His wife came back the next day, and his in law problems were instantly resolved.  

Really, this has nothing to do with FSU in laws, but with the man, and his relationship with his wife.

Now, we can discuss some of these dynamics for the board and people can take away from it whatever they wish, or, YOU can just make the decisios for all of us and simply dismiss it because Boethius said so....
How'bout it?

You can accept it or refute it.  It's an opinion.  In the end, whether or not you accept it won't make a difference to my existence or my life.  

There is no one answer fits all solutions to these problems.  I stated once what I think is needed to make a marriage succeed.  It has nothing to do with culture, or language, or age differences, or in laws.  Among those who responded in that discussion, I think Ken was the only one who understood what I was saying.

Finally, I will note that many men here are state they wanted a FSUW because FSUW are so much more family oriented than WW.  If that's the case, you take the good with the bad.  If a man marries a woman to be a "traditional wife", he should expect, and accept, her "traditional values", which often means the woman has the final say when it comes to children.  Why would a man suddenly expect his wife to become an American?  

[ECOCKS]

Children will pick up the language of their peers and parents. The younger they start, the faster and more completely they pick it up.

Spoken fluency and large vocabulary doesn't automatically carry over to writing skills or reading comprehension.

Some people have a wonderful relationship with their in-laws, including being able to live with them in the same household, some don't. Sometimes the in-laws are to blame. sometimes its the spouse, sometimes its themselves.

Many people have issues, some known, some unknown (even to themselves), in coping with the numerous and diverse concepts of marriage and child-raising.