Trip Reports General Discussion and Poll

[Gator]

We may often have disparate views on what constitutes happiness, or how to get there, but I do respect your views, even when I disagree with you.

Ditto

[Lazarus]

Gator please forgive me for the off topic 

Given the fact that the OP (ecr844) doesn't want anything posted in his TR until he is done with his story, I would like to ask my questions here.

I am really having a difficult time understanding why no one else saw the HUGE red flags thrown up by this story.
In my mind this part of the story is even bigger than the lavish gift giving provided by the OP.

...While eating dessert and discussing where we would sit and what time we should arrive (as they would be playing live music on the night of her birthday), my lady let it be known she ‘needed’ a nice dress and shoes for her birthday night out....

....I then noticed something was indeed wrong with this picture!
A look around, a stop to pinch myself, I closed my eyes and shook my head quickly....Nope the image was still there.
She had shown up in jeans, shoes with a 1/4" heel, and a zip up sweatshirt. Here I was in an expensive 3 piece suit with nice shoes anticipating a vision of Birthday beauty showing up in high heels and a brand new $130.00 dress with lingerie hiding underneath. especially after all the accompanying drama.....

Does anybody else see that this woman (or maybe her Russian boyfriend ) took the dress $130., shoes $90. and lingerie (??) that the OP purchased back to the stores and "pocketed" the money?

And how about this "little" juicy tidbit:

......Frankly I was stunned. So I asked her what she thought and she came out with this gem. "Oh, I thought you were going to get me a ring... You know because that's what I got last year"....

Obviously she didn't get a ring from the OP last year.
According to the OP's story, he didn't even know her 12 month's ago.
So there was another "fish" on the hook for her last birthday party?

Color me blind, but this woman has "scammer/pro-dater" written all over her.

Also this statement to SMS60 is a little bewildering to me:

"SMS60,"



It's for you pick it up.

I've been a member here since 2005, and I'm well aware of what each section of the board contains and it's purpose. Since you're obviously reasoning handicapped I'll spell it all out for you.

How can ANYBODY who proclaims to be a member of RWD for 5 YEARS and apparently at least one other RW dating board, do so many things so wrong? It really makes no sense? Does it?

Laz

[kievstar]

Lazarus, you made some good observations.  If someone has met this guy in person it helps on validation.  I have seen several men just like this guy and they even married the woman with similar behavior.  Some men want to be with someone so bad they will put up with a lot of stuff.  It would be great if all foreign men had a wing man to knock them upside the head when they get off path. 

I do think there is value in guys like Eduard and Jack on this board who seem to care about their clients and are with them in the trenches.  I would add Milia as well.  Sure there are others as well.

For the men who just read and than go into Ukraine or Russia with no on the ground support they are open to be abused and used.  Some will even marry and continue the punishment. 

[ECOCKS]

Yes Laz, the same questions occur(ed) to almost everyone.

The fantasy is strong in some people no matter what lip service they pay to studying the information here or applying what they supposedly learned.

The advice about gifts is a good example.

I know there have been posts where people have strongly advise against establishing a pattern of giving expensive, elaborate gifts or even any gifts beyond what you'd take to a friend's home for a shared dinner, yet a number of people "insist" that this establishes their sincerity and is required by tradition. Sounds to me like they saw the wedding scene from The Godfather way too many times. All sorts of rationalizations and denials come up from a minority who want it to be true, probably since a financial transaction tends to be more finalized than an emotional one.

[Jooky]

I mean, come on, if people didn't want others to post in the middle of their TR there are 2 pretty obvious solutions that have already been mentioned.

He chose option 3: To welcome constructive observations, but to ask the more critical posters to refrain from comments until the end of his report.

I welcome constructive criticism, and observations, opinions, etc... Any thought you have of flaming or anything of that vein, please don't waste your time or mine.

I ask the peanut gallery to wait until the TR is complete before pitching in with chiding and opinion on various points.

Is is really that tough to honor his simple request?

I mean, if you enter a home in Russia and your host asks you to remove your shoes, you don't need a moderator to step in take them off for you, right?  

[Jooky]

It really makes no sense? Does it?

Since when do people make sense? 

People do all kinds of stupid things when they feel they have time 'invested' in someone.

[tim 360]

Gator please forgive me for the off topic 

Given the fact that the OP (ecr844) doesn't want anything posted in his TR until he is done with his story, I would like to ask my questions here.

I am really having a difficult time understanding why no one else saw the HUGE red flags thrown up by this story.
In my mind this part of the story is even bigger than the lavish gift giving provided by the OP.

Does anybody else see that this woman (or maybe her Russian boyfriend ) took the dress $130., shoes $90. and lingerie (??) that the OP purchased back to the stores and "pocketed" the money?


Laz

Laz,  I am confident most did see something was definitely wrong but held back posting it because he wasn't yet done with his story.  It was also an old story posted elsewhere more than 2 1/2 months ago.  Good to know you saw the red flags.  I'm still not sure if he is finished with his story?

[Daveman]

He chose option 3: To welcome constructive observations, but to ask the more critical posters to refrain from comments until the end of his report.

Is is really that tough to honor his simple request?

I mean, if you enter a home in Russia and your host asks you to remove your shoes, you don't need a moderator to step in take them off for you, right?  

That's really one of the reasons for this thread.  Moderator action is not required unless the "criticism" resorts to name calling, etc.  Not abiding by a poster's request to refrain from criticism until the end of the report is not actually against the rules. So, technically, though impolite and IMO rather bad form, it's legal to hop in with criticism anywhere in the discussion forums including the TR section.  There are many complaints about "interrupting" or "sidetracking" a TR (and of course, those complaints also interrupt and sidetrack the same report), but as long as it's more or less related to the report in some way (not entirely off topic), there's no existing rule against such for a Mod to take action (and creating such a rule would not be a good idea on a discussion board, IMO).

This would give an opportunity to complete the report without sideline debates, etc. and open it for discussion in the same thread after.

There have been some good points made pro vs con thus far.

GQ, technically (I just love that word), this isn't an option now as the posts are made in either one section or the other.  Double posting is, again technically, not permitted, so for one to post a report in both sections would still require Mod action.  As it currently stands, once posted in the Sans Response section, that's its permanent home (though no precedent exists as not many have been posted there, and AFAIK, none have made request to move).  So the purpose of the poll is to see what people think about the idea and go from there.

Dave

[GQBlues]

Laz-

I would like to think everyone saw those things and more...while I can only speak for myself, I refrained from doing so since I was under the impression that is what the OP had asked. He gave the impression he would like to first get a chance to finish up the report and give RWD's armchair quarterback squad some time to warm-up.  

While so many things were obviously blatant during the meeting, what struck me in a very interesting way is the polarity in the OP's demeanor with regards to how he handled the rent-a-cop situation, putting together his itinerary, etc...vs how he had handled this woman...it just seemed out-of-character. Was the OP trying to suggest something that even the most astute in us can easily abandon all instincts rather easily when one operates completely out of their enviroment and comfort zone? Brings Adam Duritz's line in a song to mind,

"...'Round here, we all talk like Lions, but we sacrifice like Lambs...'round here...".

Dunno..ERC can easily speak and address this himself, if he sees fit.

But even then, I thought fitting to reserve speaking this thought out loud until he gave the signal that the table is now turned to the peanut gallery..


Dave-

I didn't mean to suggest posting on both venues. What I meant was anyone can first post the T/R in the no comment section then request a mod to make the transfer once completed (if that was the original intention of the author). Technically  

[ecr844]

Perhaps a moderator will let us know where the most apt place is for further comments since they will involve both my TR, and the thread at hand and it seems that this debate and discourse has now spit and moved simultaneously into 2 similar threads? I'd hate to derail either one as both are important.

[Lazarus]

Perhaps a moderator will let us know where the most apt place is for further comments...

I politely asked that no comments be made in this TR until I finished......

Is your 2 1/2 month old TR completed yet?
The "peanut gallery" is waiting. :evil:

Laz

[Ade]

He chose option 3: To welcome constructive observations, but to ask the more critical posters to refrain from comments until the end of his report.

From now on I request that all members writing a trip report that don't want interjections partway through, to not post said trip report until it's completed in full.

Is is really that tough to honor his simple request?

Yeah, let's see if they honour mine, it's as valid a request after all.

I mean, if you enter a home in Russia and your host asks you to remove your shoes, you don't need a moderator to step in take them off for you, right?  

I mean, it would be impolite not to right, even if it's a discussion forum. 

[Turboguy]

To me, one of the problems is that if someone wants to post his complete report before there are comments and says so in his opening post a few days and a few pages of posts later people are going to forget he said that.

To me, the best answer is what my wife suggested earlier in this topic.  He should write his TR to a word file and when he has it complete, post the whole thing.  It is probably easier for him and no one has to spend time moving and deleting anything.

Trip Reports come in two varieties.  One is as it unfolds and the other is post trip.  Sometimes the best TR's are ones that are posted each day during the trip.  Everything is fresh and no one knows the outcome, even the OP until the trip is done.  With those if there is a comment someone wants to make by the time the TR is done they have forgotten all about it and questions that are dealing with the latest day are the best questions and may actually help the OP.  With TR's posted after the OP's return, it is always possible he will get so busy answering questions it is hard to finish the TR or he may have made a few think he is an idiot and some of the negative comments may discourage him from wanting to finish it.

Personally my feelings are if someone doesn't want comments unti the TR is done, do it on Word and post the whole TR at one time. 

[SMS60]

I request all forum members to send me a $1000.00. Its not too much to ask. You euro guys can go get all your stuff exchanged before you send it.  I want dollars.

[Admin]

From now on I request that all members writing a trip report that don't want interjections partway through, to not post said trip report until it's completed in full.

Yeah, let's see if they honour mine, it's as valid a request after all.

I mean, it would be impolite not to right, even if it's a discussion forum. 

SJ,

The TR's are, I believe, a bit different from most other RWD boards. To contribute a TR is an act of generosity on the part of the writer. Sure, there are some who may also be seeking self-gratification through publication of their TR, but in our history at RWD, those are few and far between.

RWD members benefit immensely from the contribution of a well-written TR, and it offers the opportunity for great learning. THAT is the reason for; (a) encouraging TR contributions, and (b) discouraging challenges until such time as the author is willing to entertain those.

To the extent the challenges of those such as yourself and Laz (noting the devilish anticipation) are directed to aiding learning by our members - that is excellent and I suspect ECR is willing to engage. Too often we have seen challenges to TR's for the mere sake of challenging the author and to criticize their decision-making, and those have grown ugly in a few instances - too many instances.

- Dan

[ecr844]

"Everyone,"

Some comments on variety of points raised here and elsewhere on this forum.

In regards to this thread particularly I've already given some of my thoughts and will add to them here. I've already posted some rationale as to why I asked for no comments and stand by that. I also think it noteworthy that there was a time here where such a request would have been honored and if it wasn't 'management' would step in and clean things up. Frankly in addition to an large number of other supporting points I could make it would seem basic common courtesy for a member to restrain their posting urges and or ADD and wait for things to be finished or in lieu of that send a PM and ask if it's done or whatever questions you may have. Who knows they just may get answered.

Now on to some of the comments made in this thread.

If I were a person who wants to write TR without interruption, I would do it in the word document.  Then, I would publish it in installments. I would use the intervals between the installments to answer the responses to my TR.  Since I myself never read the TRs which either are long and published at once or are posted in "sans response" section (unless the poster is one of my favorites or TR has caused a controversy), I would not publish my TR at once or in "sans response" section.  So, from the perceptive of a writer, I am satisfied with the options currently provided in the TR section.

From perspective of a reader, responses between installations do not bother me at all. In fact, I often find the comments on the TR to be more interesting than the TR itself.  If I want to read only the TR, I would just skip all the responses and read only the posts of the TR’s writer. So, from the perceptive of a reader, I am also satisfied with the options currently provided in the TR section.

Good point "VWRW," thanks for sharing. "Gator, Jooky, GQBlues, and others have also made some excellent points in the thread. Now moving on to the parts most are probably waiting to read.

Gator please forgive me for the off topic 

Given the fact that the OP (ecr844) doesn't want anything posted in his TR until he is done with his story, I would like to ask my questions here.

I appreciate the consideration and also the fact that you tried to come up with an alt. solution. I'm waiting on Management to comment on where they actually would like the comments and responses to be located since the TR has already been broken into pieces by others comments and we simultaneous have this second thread.

I am really having a difficult time understanding why no one else saw the HUGE red flags thrown up by this story.
In my mind this part of the story is even bigger than the lavish gift giving provided by the OP.

I was going to comment on this during future installments and or at the end of the TR. It seems that something folks on forua such as this one fail to recognize as they pontificate, speculate, and read into these reports. it seems most miss the fact that they have the benefit of being given the perspective of hindsight and more information than they more than likely would have had in the beginning and or in the moment.

Additionally another point which will come out during the reading of future installments is the fact that I wrote the story in a certain fashion purposefully to highlight and make clear many of the 'red flags' which weren't so clear in the moment and which were actually mixed in with a lot of positive and ultimately mixed signals. I made the choice to consciously continue and ignored my instincts and some of what my gut was telling me. Was it the 'smart  money' solution? Nope. Was she riding the gravy train, yup. Did I allow it to happen and do I bear responsibility for that. Yup. Should she have gotten 1 1/2 of one percent of what she actually got. Yes. I was merely for some reason determined to give her every opportunity to have every excuse and benefit of the doubt. I wanted to learn every bit I could about her and her character.

I don't think that the 'retail value' of the gifts shouldn't be the only factor towards and dictating the appreciation of the recipient. It also shouldn't dictate your putting or a reason for your not putting some thought, reasoning. time and feelings into the selecting of your gifts for someone.

As I have written here previously I didn't go at this like she was a stranger off the street and we were just sitting down and learning everything about one another from scratch. I'd spoken  to her family on the phone briefly at various times. We'd also discussed and described our families and related topics during correspondence.

Initially I thought some very nice, thought out reasoned gifts for the family would be greatly appreciated (they were), the thoughtfulness and reasoning would make a good impression (I was told they did), and that it would show them I had serious intentions for the long term.

Some people might like to reason giving cheap, touristy, gifts and tacky bits made in China to the family as 'being smart' or fiscally makes sense. If you're treating this person like they were a complete stranger than perhaps this approach may make more sense. I didn't approach this that way. My eye was towards the longer term. Right wrong or indifferent, that's what I did. Some will agree or disagree and that's your perrogative to do so.

HOWEVER

One of the other mistakes I made was misinterpreting the 'meet the parents bit'. In retrospect, looking back and after reading some of these comments I thought about this for a bit. I took it at the time as an extremely positive indicator and something I wouldn't have expected until much later. When she brought it up on day 1 I thought it was a big deal and a huge step for her as well as an indication of how serious she was in regards to a future and or marriage.

I didn't approach it as the typical 'Hey mom this is ______ we've been dating for 2 weeks.' style conversation one might have at home in the west. Where it would be more uncommon to do such nice gifts, etc... at that time.

 It's quite possible that my line of thinking was reading into things a bit and as it was so soon the nice gifts were perceived as 'buying her affection' and or 'desperation'. As opposed to the previously posted alternative.

At the end of the day. What I learned cost me in the short term and ultimately saved me in the long term. I was at one point of the opinion that whatever I 'sunk' into this chick was definitely going to be cheaper. Much cheaper than being her bank for a few years, getting married, immigration, etc.. It is also far cheaper than the costs of defending against false DV charges, dealing with losing 'half my stuff', etc.. It had little to do in the short term with anticipated expenditures and a lot to do with an eye on long term and potential costs, gains and losses.

I made mistakes in the first half of my trip and I'm man enough to admit it. Does some 'blame' rest with her sure. But not solely. I don't consider her a scammer and we made no promises to one another that were left unkept. These things happen.

Looking back I see that I perhaps shouldn't have let it go that long. But, I did and I own responsibility for that choice. That being said, whatever I spent to that point was trivial compared to what I would spend if we indeed had a future together, and had gotten married. So this insight and that which is coming in a future installments let me know that whatever choice I made was ultimately correct.

Why did I bother to write or share the first half of this folly? I did it so that others can see and read about the risks, and dangers you accept when you bend your own rules and ignore your instincts. There were also inherent risks in being as 'generous' as I was upfront. With that risk though came the potential for great reward.

As much reward as some of the senior members here and elsewhere who are and were engaged after meeting in person less than a week or getting married in that time. So there's no need to throw stones. With some small exceptions, pretty much no matter what happened I was not getting engaged on this trip and or getting married. So I learned some useful info. about the girl and maybe it wasn't all for naught after all.

In this situation the point I think some people are failing to recognize is that I approached this in the context of going to build a long term relationship leading to marriage with this girl. I wanted to get to know her, her family, and the places, people and things which were important to her and made her who she is.

I didn't approach this trip as interviews on who I'd like to screw, short term dating and relationships and or to rush into anything right away. I could do that right here (at home) so there was no need to go to the FSU to get laid as some appear to need to do. There also wasn't any 'desperation' on my part in looking for a relationship. I can date here no problem but i wasn't looking to casually date. I was looking for a marriageable woman. She wasn't it. NEXT...

Invariably the second guessing crews opinions on which is the better or more prudent choice of course will vary along with tactfulness of their written communication and reasoning ability. Ultimately I predict it won't take long for some to try to 'pile on' now that the 'fun' has started. But hey that's life in the 'arena'.

Does anybody else see that this woman (or maybe her Russian boyfriend ) took the dress $130., shoes $90. and lingerie (??) that the OP purchased back to the stores and "pocketed" the money?

That's quite thee presumption and ranks right up there with presuming I'm a socially stunted. Instead of asking for more information you immediately presume that I'd allow such crap to happen. I kept the receipts for those purchases and had the tags cut off at the register before we left the store. :whirling:

Do you have any other assumptions you'd like to make?  

And how about this "little" juicy tidbit:

Obviously she didn't get a ring from the OP last year.
According to the OP's story, he didn't even know her 12 month's ago.
So there was another "fish" on the hook for her last birthday party?

Color me blind, but this woman has "scammer/pro-dater" written all over her.

Best information I had from multiple sources was that she was only out of a long term relationship a few months before we met. So based on that it wouldn't take a large lap of imagination that the RM she dated for the previous 3-4 years was probably the one that got her _______ (whatever) for her last birthdays. I frankly could care less as it has nothing do with me or at the time our 'burgeoning relationship' or not lack there of as the case became. I am writing this with a bit of a slant and I have removed a number of personal and lady specific details and situations so that she may remain anonymous. I also did this so that other new folks may have the opportunity to read, absorb, learn and selectively apply it to their situation and hopefully they will make better decisions and have better outcomes.

    Remember, living this in the moment their were a lot of subtle and conflicting signs. I decided on seeing it through and being patient for selfish as well as unselfish reasons. I also had someone and his wife who knew both of us telling me that things were going well and that although she is uber shy, quiet and conservative that she said a lot of good things about me, was serious and talked a lot with his wife about me and a possible future. This in addition to many subtle and some not so subtle + signs gave me the impetus to decide to play it out and see what would come in the future.  

Also this statement to SMS60 is a little bewildering to me:

How can ANYBODY who proclaims to be a member of RWD for 5 YEARS and apparently at least one other RW dating board, do so many things so wrong? It really makes no sense? Does it?

Laz

Have you ever made mistakes? Have you ever misread an emotional situation and gotten conflicting advice and 'signs' from someone and from people who knew both of parties? Have you ever been in a situation which was smack in the middle of a grey area and you made various decisions to glean more information before making a final decision? Have you every encountered instances in your FSU travels where the conventionally held wisdom of various random electronic strangers appears to be in fact untrue?... Just a few points to ponder before considering sitting back and throwing your proverbial stones.

Unfortunately, what a lot of people tend to want out of their TRs is validation for the choices they make during their trips; as long as those are the only interruptions they get they are quite happy. It seems to me that it's only when people are critical of them that they get upset and it's the hoped for validation posts that stroke their egos which keeps them from posting in the sans response section.

I mean, come on, if people didn't want others to post in the middle of their TR there are 2 pretty obvious solutions that have already been mentioned.

"SJ,"

Yes some folks want validation and a whole heap of PC koombaya B$, and coddling. So let me be clear. I wasn't pandering for it, I don't want or need your electronic positive or negative ego stroking and certainly not validation. I wrote what happened and did so in such a way as to make certain flags and negative aspects clear so that others could recognize and learn from them. Period. Interestingly enough there are also posters who have no life, and spend all their time Dorito munching and posting negative crap to stir up drama and make themselves feel important. Some need to do so to feel socially connected and also to better about whatever they are trying to escape from.

Unfortunately for some other people have lives and other things outside of the forum and actually partake in the novel concept of living as opposed to watching life go by. If you expect me to lie, or embellish things to appease you and for your entertainment I'm going to have to disappoint you now. It's not going to happen so if that's what you're looking for it'll probably be best if you don't read my TR as the Bull   sh   it content will be non-existent

On your last point it's obvious that perhaps the 2 existing solutions aren't 'ideal'.

Lazarus, you made some good observations.  If someone has met this guy in person it helps on validation.  I have seen several men just like this guy and they even married the woman with similar behavior.  Some men want to be with someone so bad they will put up with a lot of stuff.  It would be great if all foreign men had a wing man to knock them upside the head when they get off path

You fail to take note of the fact she got the boot. I went into this with eyes wide open and when things went south I used it as an opportunity to glean as much information about her and her character as I could. That information was ultimately 'priceless'..

For the men who just read and than go into Ukraine or Russia with no on the ground support they are open to be abused and used.  Some will even marry and continue the punishment.

Yet there are plenty of examples of folks who do and have done just that and ended up happily married and fine, and those who go without a safety net and aren't married. They also do just 'fine'. Having a 'service provider' is not the 'magic bullet' that some would like everyone to believe they are.

 

Laz-

I would like to think everyone saw those things and more...while I can only speak for myself, I refrained from doing so since I was under the impression that is what the OP had asked. He gave the impression he would like to first get a chance to finish up the report and give RWD's armchair quarterback squad some time to warm-up.  

Although my reasons had nothing to do with allowing the 'arm chair QB's to do anything'. I appreciate the attempt to respect my wishes.

While so many things were obviously blatant during the meeting, what struck me in a very interesting way is the polarity in the OP's demeanor with regards to how he handled the rent-a-cop situation, putting together his itinerary, etc...vs how he had handled this woman...it just seemed out-of-character.

The rent-a-cop was drunk with self importance and just ignorant and stupid enough to be dangerous. Let's just say I have a wealth of experience operating and cooperating in various levels of public safety and in a wide variety of environments. This reject could barely form a sentence and he was going to try to pretend he could properly scrutinize my passport and even further that he had the authority to do so?  I don't think so. So I spoke up. I wasn't the only one he tried that game with either.

As far as dealing with the chick I was aggressive when I needed to be but purposely took a 'passive' approach as well as others to use that as a tool for learning more about her. I was testing her as much or more than she was testing me. Yes, I realize part of her motivation in some of the things she was doing was to see just how well and much she could manipulate me. Don't presume that because I allowed events to happen that I was just along for the ride.

Was the OP trying to suggest something that even the most astute in us can easily abandon all instincts rather easily when one operates completely out of their environment and comfort zone?

Not at all...Although it does occur.

Is your 2 1/2 month old TR completed yet?
The "peanut gallery" is waiting. :evil:
Laz

I frankly couldn't give a  flying FU what the peanut gallery wants or doesn't want. No it's not finished, I am writing it and it will be posted. I find it funny that some folks think I've got nothing else to do except sit and write this out, or that they can dictate the timelines in which I do or don't do certain things. You can't, that's life deal with it.

I did post the first half at various times during and after my trip and then stopped. I chose not to continue to share the rest of it at that time. The reasons are many and varied. I then went on with my regular life and didn't continue writing the other installments. I then decided to share my TR here, just like I said I would and I intend to finish it. If you're unhappy with the speed in which that is happening you can pay my hourly and contract me to finish it on your time frame. I doubt you could afford me.

It will be completed and posted.

*Note to management": since the overwhelming majority of my points in this post were in response to posts in this particular thread I posted this here. Feel free to move it to wherever you feel it should be.*

[SMS60]

The theory of "its not about the actual trip report" (reply #18) has now been proved by the previous post.

When people have the ability to seperate "TR" from "his person" things will become calm for the writers and readers. The ego is a hungry creature.

[Lazarus]

If you're unhappy with the speed in which that is happening you can pay my hourly and contract me to finish it on your time frame. I doubt you could afford me.

The ego is a hungry creature.

In some folks, VERY hungry.

Laz

[ECOCKS]

This is becoming a case study in why I eventually quit paying attention to many TR's.

[Faux Pas]

 
Although my reasons had nothing to do with allowing the 'arm chair QB's to do anything'. I appreciate the attempt to respect my wishes.

I did post the first half at various times during and after my trip and then stopped. I chose not to continue to share the rest of it at that time. The reasons are many and varied. I then went on with my regular life and didn't continue writing the other installments. I then decided to share my TR here, just like I said I would and I intend to finish it. If you're unhappy with the speed in which that is happening you can pay my hourly and contract me to finish it on your time frame. I doubt you could afford me.

It will be completed and posted.

ECR,

I'm not looking for any slap on the back but I too was abiding by your wishes and waiting for you to finish. There is/was a number of things I wanted to ask you about and most of them were eventually asked or pointed out to you as you declined to acknowledge or address them. Your choice.  However, that is there and this is here.

I personally have no burning need to know those things that were on my mind it is just, I would have liked to know for clarity. None of them are important now anyway but, when you make the statements to refrain from posting until the finish, to expect a finish in a timely manner would be expected, would it not?

Now you piss and moan that those who throw darts should continue to wait. That's not being very realistic. Many did wait. If you didn't want responses and wanted to write lengthy TR without responses you should have went the Sans response route. You did not, IMO you should a) quit b!tching about it, b) move it to sans response, c) complete it where it is now and let the good times roll. You are not a victim here. Some don't have a clear understanding despite your well written TR. Most have waited long enough and should post freely IMHO

[Gator]

ECR,

I am pleased that you will take the time to complete your report.  I have written trip reports and it is not an easy task.  Writing them does focus your thinking, especially about your next trip if there will be one.

I believe you should follow vwrw's suggestion:
 
      1.  Take your time to complete the remainder of your report before making another post.
      2.  Post in installments.
      3.  Allow some time between installments for readers to digest what you wrote and to ask any burning questions.
      4.  Answer the courteous questions
      5.  Ignore anything that seems like a personal attack.
      6.  If the discussion deteriorates, post the next installment.
      7.  If people start to dwell on issues already addresses, post the next installment.
      8.  If someone is going overboard with criticism, ask the moderators for help.

This would allow the interaction with readers that is part of  the best trip reports.

Good luck!

[dogspot]

      1.  Take your time to complete the remainder of your report before making another post.
      2.  Post in installments.
      3.  Allow some time between installments for readers to digest what you wrote and to ask any burning questions.
      4.  Answer the courteous questions
      5.  Ignore anything that seems like a personal attack.
      6.  If the discussion deteriorates, post the next installment.
      7.  If people start to dwell on issues already addresses, post the next installment.
      8.  If someone is going overboard with criticism, ask the moderators for help.

This would allow the interaction with readers that is part of  the best trip reports.

This is excellent advice that everyone considering writing a TR should heed. Maybe a sticky somewhere.

[Lazarus]

Sorry, but I have to ask this question.
Does anybody really see a "BIG" contribution offered by RWD TP's like this one (as far as enlightening Newbies)?
I know that TR are "sacred" and "revered" on RWD. I get that.
But...I am just saying, we have an active 5 year member of RWD, posting a TR that flies in the face of every "rule", "suggestion" and "commandment" offered by valued RWD members, such as: She doesn't even bother to meet you at the airport/hotel, taking expensive gifts on the first date, going to expensive restaurants, letting the FSUW in question control almost all aspects of the date (I'll meet you at 7:00 PM on my birthday, the rest of the day you go wait in the corner ), throwing public tantrums,....etc. etc. etc.
In other words, pretty much using him like a piece of toilet paper.
Hell, the woman did everything but lock him in his flat at night and keep the key until the next morning.
I am just trying to say here, how much can Newbies really glean from this kind of report?
Anything constructive?
Is anybody else at least "agitated" about how this guy allowed himself to be used by this con artist?
After reading this debacle, I truly wonder how many watches Papa has collected from stupid Americans? :evil:

Laz

[ECOCKS]

It's a great example of how you can read everything here but still make a call (for whatever reason) that the risk is outweighed by the potential gain. If he isn't complaining about wasted time and money and doesn't expect sympathy then I see nothing wrong with his TR and it provides lots of examples to newbies of what NOT to do under normal conditions.

[Faux Pas]

Sorry, but I have to ask this question.
Does anybody really see a "BIG" contribution offered by RWD TP's like this one (as far as enlightening Newbies)?

Yes I do see it as a BIG contribution and enlightening to newbies. Because you do not agree with his methods or practices, doesn't lessen the worth of his TR

I know that TR are "sacred" and "revered" on RWD. I get that.
But...I am just saying, we have an active 5 year member of RWD, posting a TR that flies in the face of every "rule", "suggestion" and "commandment" offered by valued RWD members, such as: She doesn't even bother to meet you at the airport/hotel, taking expensive gifts on the first date, going to expensive restaurants, letting the FSUW in question control almost all aspects of the date (I'll meet you at 7:00 PM on my birthday, the rest of the day you go wait in the corner ), throwing public tantrums,....etc. etc. etc.
In other words, pretty much use him like a piece of toilet paper.

Possibly so. But as long as he is being truthful as to what happened, his TR or the fact he is posting it here doesn't make it any less important and yes IMO, newbies can learn from it. Some will take it at face value, some will see it as the holy grail  and others with a grain of salt. There is stuff there to glean, if a newbie gleans the things you point out well, he'd in all likelihood done it anyway. Nobody, even ERC has proclaimed his way is the right or only way.

Is anybody else at least "agitated" about how this guy allowed himself to be used by this con artist?
After reading this debacle, I truly wonder how many watches Papa has collected from stupid Americans? :evil:

Laz

I'm not the least bit agitated. I accused ERC of playing victim in my last post for his position and now I accuse you. You are no victim and it is no sweat off of your azz if he never posts another word nor does it change what he did and how he thinks or the facts of his TR. Some of you really do take these TRs way to serious
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