Trip Reports General Discussion and Poll

[Lazarus]

I'm not the least bit agitated. I accused ERC of playing victim in my last post for his position and now I accuse you. You are no victim and it is no sweat off of your azz if he never posts another word nor does it change what he did and how he thinks or the facts of his TR. Some of you really do take these TRs way to serious

I choose no fight with you FP.
What I do say is this, there is some sweat of my a$$, because when I go to get on the next plane (following ERC) and his behavior, how many more scamming FSUW will I have to "sift" through to find the "one", thanks to him?

BTW...His posting's are the least of my worries. He has already done the damage with his "dating" behaviors in the FSU.

Laz

[Daveman]

Perhaps a moderator will let us know where the most apt place is for further comments since they will involve both my TR, and the thread at hand and it seems that this debate and discourse has now spit and moved simultaneously into 2 similar threads? I'd hate to derail either one as both are important.

Leave the comments here for now.. they actually assist in showing why this thread was spawned, and that it was derived from your TR for cross reference.

And ecr844's trip report is located here:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=12357.0

[Faux Pas]

I choose no fight with you FP.
What I do say is this, there is some sweat of my a$$, because when I go to get on the next plane (following ERC) and his behavior, how many more scamming FSUW will I have to "sift" through to find the "one", thanks to him?

BTW...His posting's are the least of my worries. He has already done the damage with his "dating" behavior.

Laz

Hey guy, there is no fight here just a difference of opinions. I apologize if you took it that way. The bottom line is this, there is not one thing you can do for others behavior in the FSU. It's not your cross to bear and you don't apologize for it. As for the scammers that may or may not spawn from his behavior, I suggest more, deeper due diligence on your part 

[Jooky]

how many more scamming FSUW will I have to "sift" through to find the "one", thanks to him?

BTW...His posting's are the least of my worries. He has already done the damage with his "dating" behaviors in the FSU.

Do you really think his type of behaviour is converting women who are otherwise 'good wife material' into scammers?

I would think it just makes the women I would avoid anyways more bold in their requests and easiert to sift away.

[Lazarus]

I would think it just makes the women I would avoid anyways more bold in their requests and easiert to sift away.

You are possible correct sir, BUT what if the "hot" sister (with the brand new stethoscope) decides tomorrow "Hey, I can probably milk one of those stupid American foreigners for _____, because my sister did it". 
See my point Jooky?
Newton: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

Laz

[Faux Pas]

You are possible correct sir, BUT what if the "hot" sister (with the brand new stethoscope) decides tomorrow "Hey, I can probably milk one of those stupid American foreigners for _____, because my sister did it". 
See my point Jooky?
Newton: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

Laz

Then she has some serious character flaws and would have done it anyway

[Daveman]

You are possible correct sir, BUT what if the "hot" sister (with the brand new stethoscope) decides tomorrow "Hey, I can probably milk one of those stupid American foreigners for _____, because my sister did it". 
See my point Jooky?
Newton: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

Laz

Yep, he loved her, she hated him... equally! 

(sorry gang... I cannot control it.. I will seek a 12 step program to break this Bad Joke Syndrome)

[OlgaH]

Yep, he loved her, she hated him... equally! 

(sorry gang... I cannot control it.. I will seek a 12 step program to break this Bad Joke Syndrome)

Don't worry Dave, just don't pee against the wind and you will be fine... dry and clean.

[Gator]

Does anybody really see a "BIG" contribution offered by RWD TP's like this one (as far as enlightening Newbies)?

It is helpful, IMO more helpful than fairy tale romances.

ecr does an excellent job of describing the behavior of a bad woman (and she is bad).  One needs to know such because you may encounter it.   A simple analogy:  if you were planning a trek through Costa Rica, I believe you first should study venomous snakes:   appearance, behavior, etc.

Meeting a RW for the first time is the intersection of imagination, anticipation and reality.  It is not always crystal clear.  I doubt that most men recognize the first signs of troubling behavior, or if they did, they may not walk away.  The reasons are several:
 
-  First, if a man has corresponded with a RW for some time, he may have elevated expectations before the meeting. 
-  Second, he already has time and money invested in her and wants to play it out. 
-  Third, some men are optimistic (my problem). 
-  Fourth, some men dismiss bad behavior as cultural differences.  -  --  Fifth, a language barrier may create confusion and misunderstanding. 
-  Sixth (also my problem), one does not always think clearly with a pair of baby blues gazing into your eyes, legs that go to her shoulders, and high hard breasts pointing at your chest.  Some of these women are magnificent specimens.

Besides, many trip reports are interesting reads on their own.  The best are an opportunity to live  vicariously

[Daveman]

It is helpful, IMO more helpful than fairy tale romances.

ecr does an excellent job of describing the behavior of a bad woman (and she is bad).  One needs to know such because you may encounter it.   A simple analogy:  if you were planning a trek through Costa Rica, I believe you first should study venomous snakes:   appearance, behavior, etc.

Meeting a RW for the first time is the intersection of imagination, anticipation and reality.  It is not always crystal clear.  I doubt that most men recognize the first signs of troubling behavior, or if they did, they may not walk away.  The reasons are several:
 
-  First, if a man has corresponded with a RW for some time, he may have elevated expectations before the meeting. 
-  Second, he already has time and money invested in her and wants to play it out. 
-  Third, some men are optimistic (my problem). 
-  Fourth, some men dismiss bad behavior as cultural differences.  -  --  Fifth, a language barrier may create confusion and misunderstanding. 
-  Sixth (also my problem), one does not always think clearly with a pair of baby blues gazing into your eyes, legs that go to her shoulders, and high hard breasts pointing at your chest.  Some of these women are magnificent specimens.

Besides, many trip reports are interesting reads on their own.  The best are an opportunity to live  vicariously

Simply excellent...

[GQBlues]

I think stories like this need to be told, and thanks greatly for the OP, as this gives a very clear visual of how things like this can get out of hand pretty darn fast.

I do not for a minute believe the subject writer is this naive nor do I accept he absolutely lost all semblance of control and awareness. I have a feeling the writer want to bring (his) a point to all this madness. Besides, this likely happens to so many more men than we can all count in our collective hands. So it's good ECR is brave enough to report his experience as it happened.

How many times have we all seen a newbie steps into this halls and asking for advice as to whether or not his woman is sincere. We may all be in unison in saying he's being scammed, yet, more times than not, newbies almost always suffer an immediate case of denial, defiance and at times - turn hostile. Sometimes reading stories like this is a much potent dosage of a clue bat than what 'we' can collectively dole out.

IMHO, turning this into a clear, concise imagery is a heck of a lot more helpful than anyone's anecdotal contribution or even the saniest of all speculation. Seeing it in this fashion certainly makes it one of the most helpful contribution doled out here in a while.

Well, since the last time I tossed around my witty wisdom here and there...

[Ade]

Sorry, but I have to ask this question.
Does anybody really see a "BIG" contribution offered by RWD TP's like this one (as far as enlightening Newbies)?

I've always thought that the most useful TRs for newbies describe the practical information and hurdles one may face going to the FSU and this is especially so for those people that haven't travelled much outside their own country. By practical information, I mean what to expect at the airports, how to get around, what the restaurants are like, how to self register in Russia or not... etc, etc. This kind of information can be found around and about elsewhere of course but it's not always given in a first person opinion type format which can perhaps give a more useful perspective. It's the kind of information I would have found interesting and useful before my first trip and especially my 2nd trip which was via Murmansk airport; it's not essential for a successful trip of course but when you're going to meet someone for the first time it certainly wouldn't hurt to remove as many unknowns as possible beforehand.

As for the "dating" information in TRs, well, I've said this before but I'll reiterate my opinion on this; if you find this DI useful and/or need it to get by with FSUW then perhaps you should reconsider going there in the first place, at least not without someone like Eduard to hold your hand. That may sound harsh to some but really, if you don't know enough about women to make astute decisions on your own, you're only going to be in a whole heap of trouble if you factor in the added complications of dating foreign women from a different culture with less than perfect understanding of your language.

Of course, TRs can be entertaining, especially those tending toward the train wreck end of the spectrum. Like the Big Brother phenomena, a lot of people get some sort of voyeuristic kick from reading the trials and tribulations of some poor sap embroiled in a bad trip like ECR's. Can they be useful to newbies? Perhaps, but only if those TRs are critiqued and the mistakes pointed out. Also when scammers, pro-daters, and GCGs are involved especially if their MO's are described.

But I must admit that I usually find the comments on the TRs far more interesting than the TRs themselves.

[Ade]

I don't think that the 'retail value' of the gifts shouldn't be the only factor towards and dictating the appreciation of the recipient. It also shouldn't dictate your putting or a reason for your not putting some thought, reasoning. time and feelings into the selecting of your gifts for someone.

Yes, the key here is how appropriate a gift is for the person you are giving it to. No matter what you want to think, these people were strangers or, at best, pen pals. Nothing more.

As I have written here previously I didn't go at this like she was a stranger off the street and we were just sitting down and learning everything about one another from scratch. I'd spoken  to her family on the phone briefly at various times. We'd also discussed and described our families and related topics during correspondence.

Initially I thought some very nice, thought out reasoned gifts for the family would be greatly appreciated (they were), the thoughtfulness and reasoning would make a good impression (I was told they did), and that it would show them I had serious intentions for the long term.

Some people might like to reason giving cheap, touristy, gifts and tacky bits made in China to the family as 'being smart' or fiscally makes sense. If you're treating this person like they were a complete stranger than perhaps this approach may make more sense. I didn't approach this that way. My eye was towards the longer term. Right wrong or indifferent, that's what I did. Some will agree or disagree and that's your perrogative to do so.

It's not about cost, it's about appropriateness. Your excuses and rationale are the same, almost verbatim, as you gave elsewhere and you are wrong for exactly the same reasons. Let me point them out a few for those newbies that may be reading this thread;

1) It's not appropriate to give extravagant gifts to people you do not know, including pen pals, in any country AFAIK.
2) A lot, if not most, decent people would feel embarrassed that you'd given them such gifts when you didn't know them.
3) You also removed the possibility of them reciprocating in kind and probably embarrassed them because of that.
4) It may be thought by decent people that you were trying to buy their affections.
5) You threw away a lot of money unnecessarily for absolutely no gain.
6) Flowers and a bottle of something for mother and father are not only sufficient but would also not make you look like a desperate foreigner with more money than sense.

HOWEVER

One of the other mistakes I made was misinterpreting the 'meet the parents bit'. In retrospect, looking back and after reading some of these comments I thought about this for a bit. I took it at the time as an extremely positive indicator and something I wouldn't have expected until much later. When she brought it up on day 1 I thought it was a big deal and a huge step for her as well as an indication of how serious she was in regards to a future and or marriage.

Did you mention to this woman, even in passing, that you had presents for her family? Did it even pass though your mind for a second that the reason she wanted you to meet them so soon was to make sure they got their cut of the loot before you caught on that she was not at all interested in you and dumped her?

Although she had no fear there I think. From your description, if accurate, her behaviour slowly deteriorated and got worse day by day once she realized she could get away with just about anything.

At the end of the day. What I learned cost me in the short term and ultimately saved me in the long term. I was at one point of the opinion that whatever I 'sunk' into this chick was definitely going to be cheaper. Much cheaper than being her bank for a few years, getting married, immigration, etc.. It is also far cheaper than the costs of defending against false DV charges, dealing with losing 'half my stuff', etc.. It had little to do in the short term with anticipated expenditures and a lot to do with an eye on long term and potential costs, gains and losses.

But she never had any intention of marrying you. Not from the very beginning; you paid for a good time for her, that's it. Perhaps when she saw how easy you were it might have entered into her head that she could leverage a better life out of you but she never was serious about it or she would have put in more effort. The fact that she admitted to all those things like wanting you to move to Florida shows the sort of impression you made and she must have thought you were an easy fool.

All these things you could have found out far sooner and easier by not spending money on her and her family.

I made mistakes in the first half of my trip and I'm man enough to admit it. Does some 'blame' rest with her sure. But not solely. I don't consider her a scammer and we made no promises to one another that were left unkept. These things happen.

Looking back I see that I perhaps shouldn't have let it go that long. But, I did and I own responsibility for that choice. That being said, whatever I spent to that point was trivial compared to what I would spend if we indeed had a future together, and had gotten married. So this insight and that which is coming in a future installments let me know that whatever choice I made was ultimately correct.

Lesson one for the newbies going WOVO; if she's not into you big time, cut your losses and move on, and don't dither or make excuses for her or any bad behaviour. If you don't know she's into you after 2 days, move on. A woman that wants you will make it known and it will be very obvious. I'm not talking sex here, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

In this situation the point I think some people are failing to recognize is that I approached this in the context of going to build a long term relationship leading to marriage with this girl. I wanted to get to know her, her family, and the places, people and things which were important to her and made her who she is.

Yes, but until you met, you were pen pals. Building "long term relationships" happens between people that have met and decided they like each other a lot, have a lot in common, or at least have common goals and have probably had more intimacy than a shared IM session at 3am. You had already decided to build a long term relationship before you'd gotten on the plane based on some photos, Skype sessions and emails - it's just the modern equivalent of falling in love with a photo, which is always a bad idea.

"SJ,"

Yes some folks want validation and a whole heap of PC koombaya B$, and coddling. So let me be clear. I wasn't pandering for it, I don't want or need your electronic positive or negative ego stroking and certainly not validation. I wrote what happened and did so in such a way as to make certain flags and negative aspects clear so that others could recognize and learn from them. Period. Interestingly enough there are also posters who have no life, and spend all their time Dorito munching and posting negative crap to stir up drama and make themselves feel important. Some need to do so to feel socially connected and also to better about whatever they are trying to escape from.

Unfortunately for some other people have lives and other things outside of the forum and actually partake in the novel concept of living as opposed to watching life go by. If you expect me to lie, or embellish things to appease you and for your entertainment I'm going to have to disappoint you now. It's not going to happen so if that's what you're looking for it'll probably be best if you don't read my TR as the Bull   sh   it content will be non-existent

On your last point it's obvious that perhaps the 2 existing solutions aren't 'ideal'.

You fail to take note of the fact she got the boot. I went into this with eyes wide open and when things went south I used it as an opportunity to glean as much information about her and her character as I could. That information was ultimately 'priceless'..

I'm sorry, but I really don't see the "pricelessness" of the information you "gleaned". There's nothing new in your TR that hasn't been said a 1000 times before and the "gleaning" cost you 1000's and more importantly wasted a lot more of your time than it should have done.

FWIW, my wife was shaking her head as much as me when reading your TR. Here's something else, human nature being what it is, I'm guessing you wrote the TR to show yourself in a lot better light than is reality and, if that is the case, I can't even imagine why you would have allowed yourself to be used for so damn long.

I don't want to bust your balls but you don't look like you're being entirely honest with yourself on this one.

Oh and for those that couldn't be bothered, here's a "general not all inclusive list "
(as ECR put it) of the gifts he took with him (prices I found based on list prices or guesses)

For the Mother
Flowers  ~$20 - $50
Veuve Clicquot La Grande Dame 1996 $155
Fantasia de Fleurs by Creed $225

Total for Mum $380 - $430

For the Father
S&W Swat Knife  Couldn't find the exact match so I'm guessing at around $30
Guess Watch   Again I'm guessing based on similar models  $150 - $250
rare bottle opener challenge coin No idea

Total for Father $180- $280

Sister
Littmann Cardiology III Stethoscope List price $430 but I guess he found it reduced somewhere like Amazon

Total for Sister $300


"His Woman"
Flowers  ~$20 - $50
Veuve Clicquot La Grande Dame 1996 $155
Silver locket  ???
Creed perfume a guess as he wasn't specific $225
some "other local stuff" ???

Then there was the net book which would have set him back $200 min. Going by how generous ECR is I'm going for a better model so let's say $400.

The shoes $90
The dress $130
The lingerie ?

Total for "His Woman" $1000+++

That's better than $2K and this, by his own admission, is not a full list. Yeah, it's a well thought list of gifts all right. Oh, and this doesn't even include all the other expenses of expensive restaurants, trips, and terps, etc.

The way I see it, disastrous TRs are only ever useful to the newbie if we are brutally honest about all the failings. If we are not, some sad sucker in a similar position will use prior behaviour of other intrepid travellers as justification to make the same mistakes.

Edit: One thing that I've been meaning to ask; this English teacher of hers that told you she was very interested in you etc etc. Were you paying for those English lessons perhaps? And if so, you don't think he/she had a vested interested in you continuing to pursue this woman? Are you sure she had lessons at all or was the money being split between them...?

[Faux Pas]

I've always thought that the most useful TRs for newbies describe the practical information and hurdles one may face going to the FSU and this is especially so for those people that haven't travelled much outside their own country. By practical information, I mean what to expect at the airports, how to get around, what the restaurants are like, how to self register in Russia or not... etc, etc. This kind of information can be found around and about elsewhere of course but it's not always given in a first person opinion type format which can perhaps give a more useful perspective. It's the kind of information I would have found interesting and useful before my first trip and especially my 2nd trip which was via Murmansk airport; it's not essential for a successful trip of course but when you're going to meet someone for the first time it certainly wouldn't hurt to remove as many unknowns as possible beforehand.

While TRs can be and many times are informative there is no onus on the author to make them so. If a newbie can sift out nuggets then good for them but, to suggest the the TR be tailored as an instruction manual borders on absurd. It is a description of the author's trip. Some TRs are written for instruction whiles others are written for reflection yet others seemingly for no reason at all.  Personally, I am a "just the facts" kind of guy and don't care for much of the fluff. I wouldn't use anyone's TR for instruction or play by play on how to navigate the FSU or it's ladies.

As for the "dating" information in TRs, well, I've said this before but I'll reiterate my opinion on this; if you find this DI useful and/or need it to get by with FSUW then perhaps you should reconsider going there in the first place, at least not without someone like Eduard to hold your hand. That may sound harsh to some but really, if you don't know enough about women to make astute decisions on your own, you're only going to be in a whole heap of trouble if you factor in the added complications of dating foreign women from a different culture with less than perfect understanding of your language.

Agreed

Of course, TRs can be entertaining, especially those tending toward the train wreck end of the spectrum. Like the Big Brother phenomena, a lot of people get some sort of voyeuristic kick from reading the trials and tribulations of some poor sap embroiled in a bad trip like ECR's. Can they be useful to newbies? Perhaps, but only if those TRs are critiqued and the mistakes pointed out. Also when scammers, pro-daters, and GCGs are involved especially if their MO's are described.

But I must admit that I usually find the comments on the TRs far more interesting than the TRs themselves.

Again agreed. This actually can prove useful to the author if he is open enough to withstand the criticism. It can help him reflect on where he may have went wrong and help recognize and avoid those pitfalls in the future. I am all about helping the newbies but, TRs and the forum isn't solely for the newbies

[Shadow]

I kept the receipts for those purchases and had the tags cut off at the register before we left the store. :whirling:

Do you have any other assumptions you'd like to make?  

That you still do not have a clue how such things work in the FSU.

[Ade]

While TRs can be and many times are informative there is no onus on the author to make them so. If a newbie can sift out nuggets then good for them but, to suggest the the TR be tailored as an instruction manual borders on absurd.

I didn't say there was an onus for anything and neither did I suggest that TRs should be instruction manuals. Maybe I should reiterate;

I've always thought that the most useful TRs for newbies describe the practical information and hurdles one may face going to the FSU and this is especially so for those people that haven't travelled much outside their own country.

[Eduard]

Unfortunately, what a lot of people tend to want out of their TRs is validation for the choices they make during their trips; as long as those are the only interruptions they get they are quite happy. It seems to me that it's only when people are critical of them that they get upset and it's the hoped for validation posts that stroke their egos which keeps them from posting in the sans response section.

I mean, come on, if people didn't want others to post in the middle of their TR there are 2 pretty obvious solutions that have already been mentioned.

exactly! +1

[GQBlues]

As for the "dating" information in TRs, well, I've said this before but I'll reiterate my opinion on this; if you find this DI useful and/or need it to get by with FSUW then perhaps you should reconsider going there in the first place.....if you don't know enough about women to make astute decisions on your own, you're only going to be in a whole heap of trouble if you factor in the added complications of dating foreign women from a different culture with less than perfect understanding of your language.

True...however, lest we lose sight of the simple fact the majority of the men who do go to places like the FSU do so simply because they're anything but your typical Casanovas. If most of the folks are, then chances are better than good there would not have been such things as the MOB to begin with.

I generally agree with much of your perspective about this trip, while not a VO (not turning this into the approach debate please) I can't even begin to fathom what goes on behind the person's mind when he prepares for a trip for one woman who he deemed well enough to make a trip for. As a VM, I had the comfort of leaving my heart at home because I knew there will be a few women for me to meet. I don't know how one does that as a VO. The hope of making a big enough splash once you finally meet can easily define either extreme with a celebratory bang or a consolatory thud all in one NY minute. The ensuing smoke rising may either come from the fireworks or.....you.

Maybe ECR can look at this experience starting from the developmental stages of their relationship. Starting from that vantage point, it could shed some light to the things that ultimately perpetuated once he touched ground, dunno. Were the woman's behavior this blatant and he just simply ignored missed it? It'll be interesting if he can share that with us.

[Ade]

True...however, lest we lose sight of the simple fact the majority of the men who do go to places like the FSU do so simply because they're anything but your typical Casanovas. If most of the folks are, then chances are better than good there would not have been such things as the MOB to begin with.

I generally agree with much of your perspective about this trip, while not a VO (not turning this into the approach debate please) I can't even begin to fathom what goes on behind the person's mind when he prepares for a trip for one woman who he deemed well enough to make a trip for. As a VM, I had the comfort of leaving my heart at home because I knew there will be a few women for me to meet. I don't know how one does that as a VO. The hope of making a big enough splash once you finally meet can easily define either extreme with a celebratory bang or a consolatory thud all in one NY minute. The ensuing smoke rising may either come from the fireworks or.....you.

I think that's one of the problems of men going there with the explicit purpose of finding an FSU wife, although to be honest, I don't see much difference if the dude would be visiting one or many. Many men put pressure on themselves to find someone (anyone) there. Add to that the emotional investment they may have made over Skype to one or many and the investment in time and finances and you end up with a whole heap of possible reasons why men would deny reality and ignore things they never would at home.

The answer is more a state of mind rather than a differing methodology. If a guy cannot approach international dating as if he were dating at home, he shouldn't trust his judgement.

[Faux Pas]

I think that's one of the problems of men going there with the explicit purpose of finding an FSU wife, although to be honest, I don't see much difference if the dude would be visiting one or many. Many men put pressure on themselves to find someone (anyone) there. Add to that the emotional investment they may have made over Skype to one or many and the investment in time and finances and you end up with a whole heap of possible reasons why men would deny reality and ignore things they never would at home.

The answer is more a state of mind rather than a differing methodology. If a guy cannot approach international dating as if he were dating at home, he shouldn't trust his judgement.

That post and specifically the bold makes a lot of sense to which most will agree but, you are sliding off topic of trip reports

[Lazarus]

If a guy cannot approach international dating as if he were dating at home, he shouldn't trust his judgement.

SJ, since you are a success story (happily married to a RW) here at RWD,  I would like to explore this statement with you if you don't mind?
Does your statement infer:
If a man dates several women at the same time in his own backyard, he can successfully apply the same "techniques" with FSU dating (dating many/VM).
Conversely, if a man dates only one woman at a time in his hometown, he should then internet date only one FSUW and do a VO trip?
Just curious.

Laz

[ECOCKS]

That post and specifically the bold makes a lot of sense to which most will agree but, you are sliding off topic of trip reports

Then why doesn't a Mod move these two or three posts to a new thread in the Experienced Section called something like "Dating Here and There"?

Seems like a possible good topic focus.

[Ade]

SJ, since you are a success story (happily married to a RW) here at RWD,  I would like to explore this statement with you if you don't mind?
Does your statement infer:
If a man dates several women at the same time in his own backyard, he can successfully apply the same "techniques" with FSU dating (dating many/VM).
Conversely, if a man dates only one woman at a time in his hometown, he should then internet date only one FSUW and do a VO trip?
Just curious.

Laz

Generally, I'd say yes to that. But that is not news to most people that have been around here for a while. Men should date the way they feel most comfortable at home. And contrary to popular belief, even most of us VO proponents do not think VM is necessarily a bad thing; it's all in the execution and about being fair and open with the women you are dating - I guess the devil is in the details though and where most of the heated discussion ends up.

FWIW, the key word here is "dating". Those that go abroad or even to their local club looking specifically for a wife are just asking for trouble. As someone said most aptly recently, one should go looking for a relationship and let nature take its course.

[Eduard]

Yes, the key here is how appropriate a gift is for the person you are giving it to. No matter what you want to think, these people were strangers or, at best, pen pals. Nothing more.

It's not about cost, it's about appropriateness. Your excuses and rationale are the same, almost verbatim, as you gave elsewhere and you are wrong for exactly the same reasons. Let me point them out a few for those newbies that may be reading this thread;

1) It's not appropriate to give extravagant gifts to people you do not know, including pen pals, in any country AFAIK.
2) A lot, if not most, decent people would feel embarrassed that you'd given them such gifts when you didn't know them.
3) You also removed the possibility of them reciprocating in kind and probably embarrassed them because of that.
4) It may be thought by decent people that you were trying to buy their affections.
5) You threw away a lot of money unnecessarily for absolutely no gain.
6) Flowers and a bottle of something for mother and father are not only sufficient but would also not make you look like a desperate foreigner with more money than sense.

Did you mention to this woman, even in passing, that you had presents for her family? Did it even pass though your mind for a second that the reason she wanted you to meet them so soon was to make sure they got their cut of the loot before you caught on that she was not at all interested in you and dumped her?

Although she had no fear there I think. From your description, if accurate, her behaviour slowly deteriorated and got worse day by day once she realized she could get away with just about anything.

But she never had any intention of marrying you. Not from the very beginning; you paid for a good time for her, that's it. Perhaps when she saw how easy you were it might have entered into her head that she could leverage a better life out of you but she never was serious about it or she would have put in more effort. The fact that she admitted to all those things like wanting you to move to Florida shows the sort of impression you made and she must have thought you were an easy fool.

All these things you could have found out far sooner and easier by not spending money on her and her family.


Lesson one for the newbies going WOVO; if she's not into you big time, cut your losses and move on, and don't dither or make excuses for her or any bad behaviour. If you don't know she's into you after 2 days, move on. A woman that wants you will make it known and it will be very obvious. I'm not talking sex here, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Yes, but until you met, you were pen pals. Building "long term relationships" happens between people that have met and decided they like each other a lot, have a lot in common, or at least have common goals and have probably had more intimacy than a shared IM session at 3am. You had already decided to build a long term relationship before you'd gotten on the plane based on some photos, Skype sessions and emails - it's just the modern equivalent of falling in love with a photo, which is always a bad idea.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see the "pricelessness" of the information you "gleaned". There's nothing new in your TR that hasn't been said a 1000 times before and the "gleaning" cost you 1000's and more importantly wasted a lot more of your time than it should have done.

FWIW, my wife was shaking her head as much as me when reading your TR. Here's something else, human nature being what it is, I'm guessing you wrote the TR to show yourself in a lot better light than is reality and, if that is the case, I can't even imagine why you would have allowed yourself to be used for so damn long.

I don't want to bust your balls but you don't look like you're being entirely honest with yourself on this one.

Oh and for those that couldn't be bothered, here's a "general not all inclusive list "
(as ECR put it) of the gifts he took with him (prices I found based on list prices or guesses)

For the Mother
Flowers  ~$20 - $50
Veuve Clicquot La Grande Dame 1996 $155
Fantasia de Fleurs by Creed $225

Total for Mum $380 - $430

For the Father
S&W Swat Knife  Couldn't find the exact match so I'm guessing at around $30
Guess Watch   Again I'm guessing based on similar models  $150 - $250
rare bottle opener challenge coin No idea

Total for Father $180- $280

Sister
Littmann Cardiology III Stethoscope List price $430 but I guess he found it reduced somewhere like Amazon

Total for Sister $300


"His Woman"
Flowers  ~$20 - $50
Veuve Clicquot La Grande Dame 1996 $155
Silver locket  ???
Creed perfume a guess as he wasn't specific $225
some "other local stuff" ???

Then there was the net book which would have set him back $200 min. Going by how generous ECR is I'm going for a better model so let's say $400.

The shoes $90
The dress $130
The lingerie ?

Total for "His Woman" $1000+++

That's better than $2K and this, by his own admission, is not a full list. Yeah, it's a well thought list of gifts all right. Oh, and this doesn't even include all the other expenses of expensive restaurants, trips, and terps, etc.

The way I see it, disastrous TRs are only ever useful to the newbie if we are brutally honest about all the failings. If we are not, some sad sucker in a similar position will use prior behaviour of other intrepid travellers as justification to make the same mistakes.

Edit: One thing that I've been meaning to ask; this English teacher of hers that told you she was very interested in you etc etc. Were you paying for those English lessons perhaps? And if so, you don't think he/she had a vested interested in you continuing to pursue this woman? Are you sure she had lessons at all or was the money being split between them...?

this is a good post, and I agree with most of it. I usually advise my guys to bring some momentum type gifts, like T-shirts with the name of their city (if he is from LA, for instance, bring some t-shirts that have "Los Angeles" or "Hollywood" printed on them, little key chains, etc. If you are going to meet only one woman I wouldn't allocate more than a $100 for gifts, if that much. Make sure you only get S (small size) t-shirts since that's the size of most RW under 40 in the FSU. Once in her country though, make sure you buy her a bouquett of flowers, always an odd number, white or red, roses are very popular, Lillies too, make sure you don't buy yellow flowers... This is where you DON'T want to "save"! Buy a nice bouquett of flowers even if it costs you $50. It will be well worth it.
Normally a RW will not introduce you to her family right away (although there are exceptions). They will want to get to know you for at least 2-3 days, date you, to see if the chemistry is there. And only when threy feel comfortable enough, they will probably tell you that her parents would like to have you over for dinner. Most often this will happen on day 4 or 5 of your visit and if things are progressing well. When you come to visit the family, flowers for the mom, a bottle of good congac for the dad and if she has a sister or a brother another t-shirt would be just fine. Well within $150 mark. So as far as gifts/flowers are concerned, budgeting $350 to $400 is very reasonable IMO.

Now if things develop to the point where in a few days of dating, spending much time together, powerful chemistry, romance and other things that may go along with that, a more significant gift may be a wise decision. This will show to a girl that you are serious about building a relationship with her and it is a sign of  love and comittement. I'm talking about a nice set of diamond earings or a bracelet, etc. Most of my guys spend somewhere in between $700 and $1500 on that. It is very important to know that this kind of gift is ONLY appropriate if you developed a real relationship with your girl and you both are planning to take this relationship to the next level. You MUST understand that a NORMAL RW/UW will NEVER ask you for such gift. In fact, if you mention to her that you would like to buy her something like it she will tell you "NO" and will put up a fight telling you that she can't have you spend this kind of money on her. What I found works best is to trick her into coming to a jewelry store with you and let her pick what she likes. You must reassure her to not worry about the price and insist on getting something. Eventually all the sparkly stuff will get the best of her and she will agree. It is not unusual to see her hands shake and tears in her eyes when you help her put the piece of jewelry you just bought on her.
This usually takes the relationship to the new level of passion and comittement.

It works out like this only if you are developing a relationship with a normal, good woman who is truly down to earth and family oriented and who is looking for a serious relationship and is genuinely into you.

[SMS60]

SJ, since you are a success story (happily married to a RW) here at RWD,  I would like to explore this statement with you if you don't mind?
Does your statement infer:
If a man dates several women at the same time in his own backyard, he can successfully apply the same "techniques" with FSU dating (dating many/VM).
Conversely, if a man dates only one woman at a time in his hometown, he should then internet date only one FSUW and do a VO trip?
Just curious.

Laz

Laz if dont mind I would like to throw in my opinion.

I dont think its so much a VM or VO or comparing how you date at home versus away from home. I see it as a woman is a woman.

In most of my post I always use the terms....lady, girl, woman, women, or female. I very seldom use the terms RW, UW, FSUW. If you are having trouble dating at home you will have the same problems in another country. They might show up at different time intervals.

Example, Their is a new forum member, Kevin, who seems upbeat and positive. He has revealed some of his issues and problems in his posts. But appears to have alot going for him. One revelation is lots of women look at him as a friend. Not to go into the gory details, but you can sense something about this in his posts which he doesn't see.

Long story short, He will have this same problem in the international dating world. The women after a short period of time will look at him as a freind not a lover.

Its all about the person you are looking at in the mirror. When you have him fine tuned it doesn't matter where or how you date.