A confident Kremlin is throwing its weight around.

[Michelangelo]

Michelangelo,

Imposing taxes to make peopleandindustry is socialism and if you believe somehing like that will be allowed to happen here in America you are living in dream land.

The status quo is leading us to a dangerous situation.  We better try a different game plan.  Call it what you wish...

[TigerPaws]

Michelangelo,

 Sounds like a socialists answer, well I have a bridge for sale sense you believe you can trust the government.

 As a suggestion read "The Pentagon Wars" by Lt. Col. John Burton and see how our government so wisely spends our hard earned taxes.
 

[TigerPaws]

Michelangelo,

 Imposing taxes to make people and industry is socialism and if you believe somehing like that will be allowed to happen here in America you are living in dream land.

 

The status quo is leading us to a dangerous situation. We better try a different game plan. Call it what you wish...[/quote]
 No going to happen in my lifetime, if and when it ever happens this kind of thinking will be the end of America which sounds like what you want.

 

[ronin308]

Just a thought but how about increasing a tax on just automobile gasoline and reducing the income tax paid by the average citizen.

By increasing the pump prices it would have the effect of forcing the consumer into more efficient vehicles because they are too short sighted to realize that they actually won't lose any additional money thanks to the tax breaks.

As others have said though, something like that wouldn't make it's way through congress ever.

[Michelangelo]

[user=307]ronin308[/user] wrote:

Just a thought but how about increasing a tax on just automobile gasoline and reducing the income tax paid by the average citizen.

By increasing the pump prices it would have the effect of forcing the consumer into more efficient vehicles because they are too short sighted to realize that they actually won't lose any additional money thanks to the tax breaks.

As others have said though, something like that wouldn't make it's way through congress ever.

Exactly my point, and of other thinking people :-)

[Michelangelo]

Michelangelo,

Imposing taxes to make peopleandindustry is socialism and if you believe somehing like that will be allowed to happen here in America you are living in dream land.

The status quo is leading us to a dangerous situation. We better try a different game plan. Call it what you wish...[/quote]
No going to happen in my lifetime, if and when it ever happens this kind of thinking will be the end of America which sounds like what you want.
[/quote]Have you been reading this thread?  Our enemy is not a gas tax, but the contuining buying of middle east oil from people who do hate America.

[Lysander]

The current run up in oil prices is different from any in the past.  Prior oil price spikes have been due to cuts in supply. The steady rise  in oil over the past 3 years has been demand driven; Rising economies  of China, India, etc. not to mention increasing U.S. and European  demand.

Bear in mind that the price is determined by traders on the main oil  exchanges in New York, London and Hong Kong. Oil producers such as the  Gulf states can manipulate the price by agreeing as a group to increase  or decrease production. They cannot make up an arbitrary price and  expect consumers to pay it. In the past, oil producers have cut  production either to make a political point or simply to maximize  profit.

This is no longer the case. OPEC for the most part is producing at  maximum capacity. Saudi Arabia can no longer flood the market and drive  down prices as in 1986 as jb alluded to earlier. The reason, believe it  or not, is that they don't have enough oil. They are already close to  their maximum production. Other OPEC nations are in the same boat and  Indonesia has the dubious distinction of being the first OPEC member  that has become an IMPORTER of oil.

This means that even small disruptions of supply (Nigeria, Venezuala)  will result in sharp price increases. The mere prospect of war with  Iran causes speculators to buy and drive up prices some more.

While its tempting to blame the Arabs for everything, they are only  selling what the West wants to buy. They have no obligation to sell it  for cheap. As for America financing its enemies, one can also claim the  reverse. The Gulf States are big buyers of U.S. bonds, armaments, and  other products, even though the U.S. has invaded one Arab country and  threatens to invade others.

Alternative sources of energy will be found. Although the government  and politicians are to afraid to ask the voters to make any sacrifices,  financial markets wont be shy about it at all. Eventually the price of  oil will be high enough that there will be no choice in the  matter. 

[Michelangelo]

This means that even small disruptions of supply (Nigeria, Venezuala)  will result in sharp price increases. The mere prospect of war with  Iran causes speculators to buy and drive up prices some more.

Alternative sources of energy will be found. Although the government  and politicians are to afraid to ask the voters to make any sacrifices,  financial markets wont be shy about it at all. Eventually the price of  oil will be high enough that there will be no choice in the  matter.

Right on.  So let's get ahead of the curve and go green now while we can be in the driver's seat...

[TigerPaws]

Michelangelo[/quote],[/color][/font] 

 Going "green" sounds nice but for the most part it is pie in the sky wishful thinking, in the real world (where I live) people are not going to buy postage stamp size cars, grandma is not going to ride a motorcycle and we are all not gong t live in high rise apartments near to where we work. Ah! You say electric and hybrids are our salvation, nice thought but what do you do with the old batteries, the electrolyte and the waste products it takes to make these technologies? Solar you say? Nice thought but who will pay for it? What about the energy it costs to produce the solar cells, what about the toxic waste left over from the production of the solar cells. FYI for every 10 lbs of solar cells there is 3 lbs of very toxic waste produced which as yet we do not know how to dispose of. 

 Going "green" sounds nice but in the real world it is not going to happen.

[Bruno]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_solar_cell

Polymer solar cells produce electricity from sunlight. They are now durable and incorporated in many devices, for example, in small commercial calculators such as are given as gifts by accounting companies. A remaining question is whether polymer solar cells can successfully compete with cells produced by the specialized silicon industry. Compared to silicon-based devices, polymer solar cells are lightweight (which is important for small autonomous sensors), disposable, inexpensive to fabricate, flexible, designable on the molecular level, and have little potential for environmental impact, however the energy yield is just slowly reaching levels of a 1/4 of regular silicon solar cells, and construction geometries have not been fully explored.

[/url] 

A solar panel, a wind turbine, ... are expensive material... but the energy capted if free... with the year, they pack back the initial investment from themself... 

[TigerPaws]

Bruno,

Why ? Are you not able to learn life in a ecologic way... NO!

Have you hear of "green" battery ? They can be 100% recycled...Nice thought and in maybe 20 years we may have something... Maybe!

New technologie...

The invention of conductive polymers, (for which Alan Heeger was awarded a Nobel Prize) may lead to the development of much cheaper cells that are based on inexpensive plastics, rather than semiconductor grade silicon.Again in maybe 20 plus years we might see something again maybe.


A solar panel, a wind turbine, ... are expensive material... but the energy capted if free... with the year, they pack back the initial investment from themself... What do you do with the old batteries, the electrolyte and the waste products it takes to make these technologies? Solar you say? Nice thought but who will pay for it? What about the toxic waste left over from the production of the solar cells. FYI for every 10 lbs of solar cells there is 3 lbs of very toxic waste produced which as yet we do not know how to dispose of. 


 

[Bruno]

Bruno,

What do you do with the old batteries, the electrolyte and the waste products it takes to make these technologies? Solar you say? Nice thought but who will pay for it? What about the toxic waste left over from the production of the solar cells. FYI for every 10 lbs of solar cells there is 3 lbs of very toxic waste produced which as yet we do not know how to dispose of. 


 

 do you read before post ?

- new generation of batteries can be recycled

- new generation of solar cell with polymere are cheap and are bio ( the polymere are organic product )

Who will pay... simple, visit my country... each product have a eco-tax in function of the expense needed to recycle it... ecologic product become more cheap... product who generate more waste have a high tax and from this a high price... with time, people change ( no like you ) and choice the "green" way...

You are a new father but you think only about the term of your own life... you don't think about the future of your own child... shocking

[TigerPaws]

Bruno,

  What you fail to understand and are not willing to accept is the underlying cost of your so called eco friendly solutions, the polymer biased silica substrate is made from an oil product and the toxic waste which is a result of that production we do not know how to dispose of. The amount of toxic waste produced is fully 1/3^rd of the total amount of the finished product, maybe because of our language barrier you do not fully understand what I am saying?

 As for a tax on something like this that again is typical European Socialist thinking, tax people and let the government run your life, fortunately the majority of Americans still believe that the government is subservient to the people not like most of Europe where the government controls you life from cradle to grave.

 As for the future, frankly I do not give a Damn, I will not be around to see it anyway. If I am around when my daughter reaches 18 then she will get the same treatment my son received and I received when I turned 18. I was shown the front door and told to make my own way on the world, sink or swim on your own.

[Bruno]

 As for the future, frankly I do not give a Damn, I will not be around to see it anyway. If I am around when my daughter reaches 18 then she will get the same treatment my son received and I received when I turned 18. I was shown the front door and told to make my own way on the world, sink or swim on your own.

Typical reaction who lead to anti-americanism from the rest of the world... no respect for own child, other people and the world... when you was 18, you have make your way in a relative clean world but your action will make that your daughter receive a world like a dump... people like you are responsible of the climat change... your behavour is responsible of hurricane, the rise of some illness, the destruction of our bio-diversity... you are motivated by your self-interest who disregard the interest of the community... [/size][/color][/font]

[TigerPaws]

Bruno,
 
 You really DON'T WISH understand yourself... biopolymer are no make from oil product but from organic material... by example, we have some plastic bag make mainly from polymerisation of starch from corn... stay so bag outside on the ground, in two week, he break down with bacterie... in 3 month, it is fully recycled by the nature..
 
 While this is a nice technoogy which holds great promise th simple FACTS are that it is years away and there is simply NOT enough farm land to produce enough raw materal for wides speread production, again nice thought but what you are talking about is an extremely small nitch market product with will not see the light of day for many years if ever.
 

The tax system was used for obligate some people too much lazy for act in a ecologic way... it seem that for some, only when you hit the wallet, they begin to adapt... it is nothing to make with a socialist thinking but more like action of police... reward for the good guy and amend for the bad one...
 
 Bruno maybe in your socialist European mind set but here in America we value individual freedom over government oppression, no matter how you would like to say it for any government to use the power given by the people to impose a collective will is socialism, pure and simple and while you might like to live in a socialist state where you are taken care of from cradle to grave not everyone wants that type of oppressive governmental control.
 

Typical reaction who lead to anti-americanism from the rest of the world... no respect for own child, other people and the world... when you was 18, you have make your way in a relative clean world but your action will make that your daughter receive a world like a dump... people like you are responsible of the climat change... your behavour is responsible of hurricane, the rise of some illness, the destruction of our bio-diversity... you are motivated by your self-interest who disregard the interest of the community...
 
 LoL. How would you know about respect or disrespect, I take serious offence at your comment in this regard Bruno. How I raise my children is my business and my responsibility and it is not yours to say anything about it one way or another. When I was told to leave the house America was in the middle of a very nasty war in which over 53,000 Americans eventually died, I went into the service of my country and made my way in the world. The world then was just as dirty and contaminated as it is today, the difference is you just did not hear about it. Your argument is typical Euro trash anti American bull. Like it or not self interest is what moves all of us and I could give a Damn about community which is one of many reasons we have checked and dropped out of society as a whole.
 

[Michelangelo]

Michelangelo

,[/size][/color][/font]

Going "green" sounds nice but in the real world it is not going to happen.
[/quote]Then  the world you have enjoyed will cease to exist, paws.  We are in decline, not only in the purity of the world we live in, but in national security because of the vast exchange of wealth with those who oppose us.  Stop defending your preset notions and start thinking of new solutions to solving our energy crisis...

[ronin308]

Tigerpaws, there's a huge difference between being shown the door at age 18 and having someone conciously decide to wreck everything around them and then say it isn't their responsibility to clean it up.

I mean if your daughter made a mess in her room do you clean it up for her?  That's the underlying tone of what you're saying.

I completely agree with you that electric cars and hybrids are not the solution and never have been a long term well though out solution.  Anyone who's had to follow an electric bus that is driving illegally down the street because it cannot maintain even the legal minimum would agree that battery power isn't an option.  Hybrids are a bit better but they still have the toxic mess left over from batteries. 

The only reason that auto manufacturers are releasing hybrids is because a good portion of the public wants them.  Total operating cost of the vehicle is higher than that of a regular car, but it does reduce the overall use of gas.  Not as much as a true economy car but still there is a difference.

Now back to the original subject, has anyone read about the situation in Georgia?  While a good portion of their problems are self inflicted, the destruction of a gas pipeline supplying Russian gas during the recent cold snap by "sabotage" and it's slow repair are being said to be punishment.  Now very few will know the truth, but my question is who to believe?

On one side you have many of the former Soviet States who have elected leaders that are more western leaning claiming that Russia is trying to influence things in their countries and then you have Russia claiming innocence.  Or is it just the media trying to make something exciting from otherwise events that wouldn't be so.

 

[TigerPaws]

Michelangelo,

 I have little doubt that within 100 to 150 years the world as we now know it will fundamentally change, whether that change will be for the better or the worse no one can say and there is noting you or anyone else can do to derail what will eventually happen. The global forces at work are far to strong and entrenched to be shaken loose by small groups crying that the sky is falling in, no one is going to listen.
 
 Neither you or I will be around to see what happens and in 1 possibly 2 generations no one will even remember you or I even existed so what difference will it make.

[Bruno]

  Going "green" sounds nice but in the real world it is not going to happen.

Then the world you have enjoyed will cease to exist, paws. We are in decline, not only in the purity of the world we live in, but in national security because of the vast exchange of wealth with those who oppose us. Stop defending your preset notions and start thinking of new solutions to solving our energy crisis...[/quote][/size][/color][/font][/quote][/quote]
Going "green" is already happen... kyoto, reduction of nuclear central, research of alternative energy, bio product, recycled waste are a daily reality in Europe and several other country...

But US will not follow these way... fast profit is the only one reality... long term thinking don't exist...

But here, we already see some result... people change... it is not more a economical problem... Europa is in the top 1 of ecologic energy... our industry generate a lot of work in these sector...

That USA will not follow is not really the problem... but polution generated by USA don't stop at the border of the country... all the world is victim of these polution... same china who is a country who generate a lot of waste have accept to reduce the polution but it seem "mission impossible" for US... profit before health !!!

Already 10% of our energy use is from "green" energy ( planed 16% for 2010 )... next time that the arabic land will generate a crisis with petrol, USA will suffer more that us... but it will be your choice... adapt or die at long term...

 

[Bruno]

[user=307]ronin308[/user] wrote:

Now back to the original subject, has anyone read about the situation in Georgia?  While a good portion of their problems are self inflicted, the destruction of a gas pipeline supplying Russian gas during the recent cold snap by "sabotage" and it's slow repair are being said to be punishment.  Now very few will know the truth, but my question is who to believe?

Usually, the true is between the two extreme...

 

[TigerPaws]

From what I have read there is little doubt that Russia is dragging her feet on the repairs and Georgia is most likely just as much at fault for not adequately securing her vital infrastructure against a known problem so there is more than enough blame to go around.
 
 The larger issue will be how Russia decides to throw her weight around in regards to vital resources now and in the future, using the threat of cutting off oil and gas supplies to pressure independent governments to do as they are told not what is in their best interests.

[Bruno]

 The larger issue will be how Russia decides to throw her weight around in regards to vital resources now and in the future, using the threat of cutting off oil and gas supplies to pressure independent governments to do as they are told not what is in their best interests.

They don't really wish pressure independent gourverment... it is why russia plan to build a direct link between russia and Germany for European gaz...

Tymoschenko is become milliardaire with russian oil/gaz... this will be not more possible in the future... of course, it is the usual ukrainian people who suffert of these problem...

[TigerPaws]

Bruno,

 You are missing the bigger picture, Russia lets Germany fund and build a natural gas pipeline, Russia make a sh*t load of money supplying Germany with natural gas. Russia needs support in NATO and the EU, Russia calls Germany just before the coldest winter on record and if Germany does not support Russia point of view there is mechanical problems with the gas compressors and valves on the Russian side of the border.

 Now change the countries to how many is Russia supplying with natural gas and oil? Even you can figure out this is a win, win for Russia.

[BC]

 The larger issue will be how Russia decides to throw her weight around in regards to [their] vital resources now and in the future, using the threat of cutting off oil and gas supplies to pressure independent governments to do as they are told not what is in their best interests.

[their] added by BC

embargoes, economic sanctions etc are tools used by many governments to pressure independent governments to do as they are told and not what may be in their best interests..

I guess there will be much debate as to what 'best interests' are.. but don't be surprised when raising swords that others also can act and respond in similar fashion.

 

[ronin308]

Bruno, don't ramble on about Kyoto, even Russia's own scientists say that it will have no effect on limiting greenhouse gases and has very little scientific basis.  Additionally what it would do is cause a shift of manufacturing facilities to those developing countries which will not be subject to the treaty and allowing more pollution.

http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/books/548.html  Read this if you want to know more about what the Russians have to think on it.

As to greenpower, the US has had incentives and greenpower programs for a longtime, the US Airforce purchases 11% of it's power through green sources and the second largest manufacturer of PC processors (AMD) is a 100% green.

New renewable energy power generation facilities are going online in increasing numbers.  Additionally our government is providing incentives for those who choose greenpower and things like hybrid autos.

And you claim the US isn't doing anything and you want to ratify a treaty that is more political than actual scientific good?  I rarely side with our government on anything but in this case I agree.