Taking a chance and making a visit.

[Faux Pas]

Again, I do not judge her, the father or you. But in my book becoming pregnant at 15 does not qualify as honorable. (for the mother or father) But such actions do qualify as being young and niave or stupid.

So what do you suggest? A big stamp on her forehead declaring mistake at 15? A scarlet letter maybe? The girl made a foolish mistake at 15 that affects the rest of her life. That doesn't make her less than honorable, that makes her a mother. Your inference that she is somewhat soiled or stupid is wrong IMO. Great attitude there JR if you live in Iran

[JR]

So what do you suggest? A big stamp on her forehead declaring mistake at 15? A scarlet letter maybe? The girl made a foolish mistake at 15 that affects the rest of her life. That doesn't make her less than honorable, that makes her a mother. Your inference that she is somewhat soiled or stupid is wrong IMO. Great attitude there JR if you live in Iran

You are a fool FP.

[Faux Pas]

You are a fool FP.

Your infantile response is noted JR. What will you do when your daughter gets pregnant at 15? Mark her up a dishonorable slut bringing shame to the family and stone her to death, what?

[cppd508]

     JR I can understand you thinking or feeling that getting pregnant at 15 can be classified as being foolish or naive.  I am not trying to condone this sort of thing.  However, yes you are passing judgment in saying that she is not honorable because of this.  Whether the choice was right or wrong, it does not have bearing on whether she is or isn't honorable; or, should or shouldn't be treated as honorable.  Disagreeing with the situation is not making a judgment, but using the situation to decided how the woman should be treated or viewed is making a judgment of her.  Maybe that is where the disconnect is occurring.  I am reluctant to use the following example, and I hope you will read this the right way.  Imagine how you would feel if your daughter ended in similar circumstances as this woman.  How would you feel if men then cast judgment on her, that she was not honorable?  I sincerely hope that your daughter never ends up in similar circumstances, and is able to enjoy her youth to fullest; so, please do not take the question the wrong way.  I just want you to think about what it is that you are advocating.  I am not defending this woman's honor, because I am goo-goo eyed over her; but, because I would defend any woman in a similar situation, against a similar personal attack.  Foolish, stupid, and naive previous choices do not make someone less honorable.  Maybe your intention and meaning was to cast judgment on the situation of becoming pregnant at such a young age, then me and you are in agreement, that getting pregnant at such a young age is not a good thing.  But you post was worded in a way, that went beyond judging the situation, and casting judgment on the woman.  Hence, Faux equating your post to pasting a stamp on her forehead, or making her wear a scarlet letter.
     As for your position about what this thread is about, it seems a little misguided to me.  Sure forums offer opportunity to comment and post whatever a person chooses to.  However, simple etiquette speaks differently.  Forums being arranged and categorized into different topics, means that usually posts are directed to specific topics within those categories.  As I mentioned, I have no problems with you or anyone here.  I even do not mind discussing outside of the intended topic of this thread, "a trip report."  I just simply ask that people are respectful not only to me and this woman, but also to each other.  So, I will apologize if I misunderstood some of your post, and you were judging the situation and not her, but I hope that you will also realize that your post came across as judging the woman.

[cppd508]

Faux, thanks for your post.  It is nice to know that I was not only one that read JR's post as making a judgment on the woman, and not the situation. 

[Jumper]

I understand JR's point that a very young pregnancy is going to make many men take a step back,
 for several reasons.

Whether that is fair ,or unfair, it is life.
The young lady likely runs into this often, I'm sure she is used to being judged by it.


 In this case the OP knew the situation, made the decision that what she did after, is what defines her character, and proceeded.
 The OP knows her personally , no one else here does,so he has a clear picture and seems to
not be  blinded by infatuation.

I'm impressed she took daughter along.
Many young adults there would be having mom or babushka look after the child, while taking the OP to the clubs or shopping sprees..

His romantic interest instead  seems to have  tested the OP a bit, in how he would react in a regular family (flat) situation..

Seems a fairly typical trip to see  a young mother..
Thanks for sharing

So how have things progressed once you've been back? that is usually the real indicator of a just beginning relationship?

[Vaughn]

cppd508,

  There's never a need for you to apologize - for your choice in a woman nor for responding in such civil fashion
to what was uncalled for. I've been enjoying your TR despite it getting sidetracked with a bit of negativity.

  A long term member here who's been largely absent the past two years named jb said it best when he wrote
something like: "Nobody's opinion really mattered - I chose and married the best woman for me..."

  Speaking of honorability, am I the only one to notice that, in a nation where abortions are so available and
widespread, this young lady opted to keep and raise her child ?

[Faux Pas]

  Speaking of honorability, am I the only one to notice that, in a nation where abortions are so available and
widespread, this young lady opted to keep and raise her child ?

No, you were not. Further, from the OPs description she seems to be a good mother, not uncommon for many in her situation as young and divorced to shun or not be very apprised in motherhood. I say kudos to the girl and also cppd for being objective. Dating a mother and small child in such a situation I'd wager could be challenging (not meant ina BillyW sort of way) 

[cppd508]

AJ and Vaughn, thanks for your posts.  

AJ I'll begin with responding to your post.  It was interesting for me, that I was able to meet the daughter on the second day.  I really took this as a good sign.  Then having the daughter present really seemed to add some assurances about this woman.  She never really did anything that concerned me, that her interests were financial in nature.  As for how things have been since I have been back, I cannot honestly say just yet.  Having only been back since this past Wednesday, things still have not settled completely for me.  I have talked to her twice on the phone, and she still sounds happy to hear from me.  Friday was the first chance I had to sit down, and send her an e-mail.  I haven't received her response yet, but I also know that her mother was visiting her for the week, and was staying until late today.  This weekend was also the first time I have had some alone time, to really sit and think back on the trip.  I feel I will have more answers about how things will progress between us in the next day or two.

Vaughn, that was one of things that really seemed to interest me about her when I first began corresponding with her.  I when I first started contacting women that I was interested in meeting, I was avoiding communicating with women her age.  I was trying to be realistic and practical in my approach in who I corresponded with.  I actually received an intro letter from her first, and my original response would have been not even to read it because of her age.  I really liked her smile in the photo though, and decided I would at least read her profile.  In her profile, she seemed more mature in a lot of what she wrote, then some of the woman who were older than her.  I questioned a little whether these were her words, or if she just had someone that was really a greater writer compose her profile for her.  I wanted to take the chance to learn more though, so I read her letter and sent my response.  As our communication continued she came across as more mature then some of other women who were older than her.  She never seemed to give me any reason to feel like any sort of scam was occurring.  During my trip, I can say with 100% certainty, that she was genuine, with everything she had said during our correspondence.  There were things, that demonstrated she was 100% dedicated to raising her daughter, and not just her saying it.  However, in having hind-sight on my side, this may have caused my stumbling block with being a little more aggressive in my romantic pursuit of her.  What I mean is, it felt more like a family atmosphere, then as a romantic atmosphere of a man and woman dating.  Not that it was bad, I guess just different then how I had envisioned things prior to going.  Although, I guess there were many things that were different than I had envisioned, even outside of the relationship situation.  Just the whole experience of Ukraine.  I really feel, that no matter how you try to prepare for that first visit, you just cannot understand, until you are there.  So, I will take the next couple weeks to see how things progress between me and this woman.  If things keep progressing, then in April I will return to see her for a longer visit.  If things do not work out, I will go back to Ukraine in April for a longer visit, and maybe see about meeting someone else.  Either way, I loved my first visit to Ukraine, and I really enjoyed that I got to spend my first visit with her and her daughter.  Keeping my fingers crossed that they will be who I spend my trip with. :-)   

[3T_Ventus]

cppd508,

Thanks for posting this good Tr!
I was on a scam agency a few moths ago and chickened out after hearing a bad trip report from a member on here and experiencing some interference from the agency. I switched to a more reputable agency and had immediate success which resulted in me visiting her last weekend when only being there for about a month. You took courage cppd508 (great member name!), did what you thought best and reaped with a good result.

I will try and have and give you my most objective opinion, though my opinion is not important. You did not kiss but still had a romantic moment. You are considerate of her feelings, which is good seeing her past relationship and the current situation. You will kiss her one day and explain another day why you did not kiss her on the first trip. Being a considerate and respectful man will not be turned down by her. Of course only you can know what is best for your relationship at this particular moment and in the future. Wish you much luck and success and hope things turn out right!!!  

PS: The UW I was going to visit two months ago was a 23 old young woman from Melitopol    

[Manny]

Hello 508,

A couple of things occurred to me reading through your tale here. One of which has not been touched upon by others yet.

You claim minimal experience with women in the US. Often times in those situations, a guy views the FSU as a "get out of jail free" card -- it isn't. It is my view that a man should have comprehensive experience with women and relationships in his homeland to even consider venturing abroad with the added complications that brings. Most men I have seen who go abroad in such circumstances do not do well.

You are 33. That is at the younger end of the spectrum of men who usually consider this route. The reason for that is at 33, men are usually fighting women off at home and don't even think of looking abroad.

The woman you met is 19. Kid and ex husband or not, she is still a kid. She isn't mature enough to make reliable life decisions yet. For sure, she will probably marry you, but not for what many in the west would consider the right reasons.

You wrote for nine months before visiting. That isn't taking a chance, that is taking your time! After having had so long to get to know each other as best as is possible at arms length, during a week together, some of which you were under the same roof for, the sex should have come naturally. Either she just wasn't that into you, or your inexperience caused you to miss the signals and you left her wondering what the hell happened and what she did wrong. I suspect the latter. She didn't manoeuvre you into an out of town apartment for ease; it was most likely done in order that your relationship was consummated away from the glare of nosey neighbours and locals.

Don't wrap up your inaction in that department in the gentlemanly and respectful wrapper as you seem to want to do. She hasn't grown up in a society inhabited by southern gentlemen; don't buy into the guff that all these women are patiently waiting for hat doffing fellows to court them for over a year before giving them a peck on the cheek. It doesn't work like that there. She has invested nine months in getting to know you and you didn't take the opportunity to progress the relationship to the next natural level despite travelling thousands of miles to see her.

She will most likely feel you rejected her.

In my view, the writing is on the wall here, and however you tilt your head, it doesn't read well.

[cppd508]

Thanks for your posts 3T and Manny.

     3T, I appreciate your support and insight.  I try to approach life with positive thoughts, but I also am realistic in my views.  I truly enjoyed my trip, and really enjoyed spending time with this woman and her daughter.  However, I also know that mistakes were made on my part, and that this situation is complex for us.  So, I am aware that there are risks, and potentially that this will be nothing more than a lesson learned for me.  I still have no regrets though.  :-)

     Manny, I agree and I am aware of much of what you wrote.  I understand your feeling that some men might approach this as a "get out of jail free card."  For me, this was not the case however.  I do not have problems with meeting American women, or any preconceived notions that a woman's geographical background can tell anything about a woman.  My interest in potential romance from someone abroad comes more from the view, that I see no reason to limit my potential interests to a specific geographical location.  Life is not like it was 20 years ago.  I walk into my work, and am surrounded by people from various parts of the world.  I not only hear that we are living in a global world, but I experience it first hand everyday.  In fact one of my closest friends is a man from Bulgaria that has only lived in the U.S. for 8 years.  So my situation is not one of thinking that a woman from the FSU is somehow going to fulfill some fantasy of the perfect life.  Wherever the woman is from, I know that life will still have challenges, there will still be arguments and disagreements, and all the other things that come with a relationship. 

     I agree that I am at a huge disadvantage with not having more experience with a variety of other women in my past.  However, I do not agree that should prevent me from trying.  Although, it is not always the case, there are times when this can lead to better a relationship.  Not because some crazy dream I am living, but because psychologically the relationship is developed by going through these challenges.  I do understand though, that this makes a relationship more difficult not only for me, but also for the woman potentially. 

     You are also correct that I need to be aware of the fact that she is still in her youth, regardless of the fact of her having a child.  I do think about this often, and continually analyze it as things progress.  Not just because of the mentioned concerns, but also because in this situation I need to be secure with myself, and that I can fulfill the things she will need for the relationship to continue to progress.

     Finally, I understand your comments about using the "gentlemanly wrapper," etc.  I am not doing so because I am trying to portray myself as being better or more saintly.  It really just is the way I am.  Like I have said, I know I definitely made mistakes on the trip, one of them being not being more aggressive with pursuing a kiss, or testing the waters physically.  Looking back with hindsight, there were times, that I probably could have gone for it, and now know with certainty how it went.  However, I had to make the choices in the moment, and at the time for whatever reason chose not too.  Maybe it was after all me that was a bit naive, thinking that I want my kisses to be special, and not just a kiss.  Anyways, you are right that there is writing on the wall, that this may not work out to a lasting romantic relationship.  I have some doubts about how things will progress, but still I am happy I took the chance.   

[Vaughn]

cppd508,

  Maybe I missed this somewhere in the text - but have you and she made any plans with respect to
language, that is, her studying English and/or you some of her language?

[cppd508]

Vaughn,

     She has been practicing and studying learning more English, since January when we first started communicating.  I am planning on trying to learn Russian.  I definitely realize that at least knowing some basic Russian would have added a lot to the trip for me.  While I was there, outside of the first day when we used the interpreter, she did all the translating, so she has pretty good English skills already.  The first day, the only reason we used the interpreter was because she was feeling a little nervous, and was concerned that she might make a mistake.

[JR]

Your infantile response is noted JR. What will you do when your daughter gets pregnant at 15? Mark her up a dishonorable slut bringing shame to the family and stone her to death, what?

FP, it's an observation, that is all.

People pass judgements along everyday. For example, look at this thread, now many times have judgements been passed here? And all are judging the same thing, the situation. Why? because as I stated in my original post no one here knows more about the people involved than the OP. Only the OP has met this lady and therefore has any right to judge her. Everyone is judging the situations (good or bad) as the OP presents it, to do otherwise is foolish.

While we are at it let me make a few more judgements about the situation as subsequently presented by 508. Disclaimer: I am only passing judgement upon the situations, not the persons involved, I have not met them, do not know any of their reasons for doing what they did or did not do.

1. I believe giving an unborn child the chance at life is a VERY honorable thing to do, especially when it is so easy and convenient to brush it
    aside. It is also very selfless and loving.

2. I believe that marrying the father and giving the child a chance to grow up in a normal family situation is an honorable thing to do.

3. I believe that removing yourself and your infant from an abusive situation is the smart thing to go.

508, only you have met and know this young woman. Only you will ever know if she is right for you. Only you know if you've painted an accurate and inclusive picture of who she is. Only you know where your heart is in this matter. Only you can decide to move forward or move on. Anyone on this forum can only comment upon the words you present here. NO ONE can judge her for the actions as you describe them.

One last thing and then I hope we can be done with this nonesense. I wrote that "it is not honorable in my book." I did not write 'she is not honorable.' In contrast to this please note that I directly and deliberately called Faux Paus "a fool." This is definitely passing judgement upon him and not the situation.

Now can we move on with this excellent thread? Again, thank you for putting yourself out there and posting this T/R 508.

[cppd508]

JR, thank you for clarifying for me.  I apologize for misunderstanding what you were passing judgment on. 

I would like to share some thoughts, after having some time to get home and get some perspective on my trip.

My trip to me was one of the best experiences of my life.  Yes, some of it could have been planned or executed in better fashion; but, for a first trip, I think it was great.  It was my first trip to anywhere in Europe, and the first time I traveled completely alone, without knowing someone with me, or someone where I was visiting.  I learned many things not just about the girl I met, but I also learned a lot about myself.

On the romantic thoughts, I can not say there was that magic that seem people discuss.  I know some people, including myself, envision things such as kissing and physical type contact when thinking of romance.  Yet, even without this, there was a little feeling of romance inside of me.  It came from the many times I was able to look over at her and smile, and she looked back and smiled at me.  It was in those moments of being able to look into each others' eyes, that even if the relationship between us disappears, the nine months of correspondence was worth it.  I suppose each person has their own thoughts on what makes it all worth while, and for me this was enough.

I do not know whether this relationship will continue progressing, as that is something only time will tell.  I am happy I went and met her.  I had a great time spending time with her and her daughter.  I think I have learned from this trip, and definitely plan on going back, even if it is just for a vacation and does not involve meeting anyone.  Strangely enough, I found Ukraine a place with its own unique charm, and I would definitely like to see more. 

My only other thought right now, is for anyone that hasn't been there, that is thinking of going.  My advice, take the chance.  I can only think of one thing that I would change if I could.  I would have learned some basic Russian before going.     

[Steamer]

On the romantic thoughts, I can not say there was that magic that seem people discuss.  I know some people, including myself, envision things such as kissing and physical type contact when thinking of romance.  Yet, even without this, there was a little feeling of romance inside of me.  It came from the many times I was able to look over at her and smile, and she looked back and smiled at me.  It was in those moments of being able to look into each others' eyes, that even if the relationship between us disappears, the nine months of correspondence was worth it.  I suppose each person has their own thoughts on what makes it all worth while, and for me this was enough.   

Good Man.
I am convinced that after the first meeting "Like" is the more ideal emotion instead of "Love". Like means that you enjoy each others company on a pre-sexual level. After you boink some fine thing we ALL love them, but you will keep your wits and clear thinking if you develop a relationship first. Sex is a wonderful thing but it can rot even the most reasonable mans good thinking. Keeping control over yourself is all important. Love develops over time.

[cppd508]

Steamer,

     Thanks for the post.  You bring up a valid point, that I know personally rings true for me.

[chivo]

You wrote for nine months before visiting. That isn't taking a chance, that is taking your time! After having had so long to get to know each other as best as is possible at arms length, during a week together, some of which you were under the same roof for, the sex should have come naturally. Either she just wasn't that into you, or your inexperience caused you to miss the signals and you left her wondering what the hell happened and what she did wrong. I suspect the latter. She didn't manoeuvre you into an out of town apartment for ease; it was most likely done in order that your relationship was consummated away from the glare of nosey neighbours and locals.

100% correct.

I remember when I first came here I thought it strange that women who I knew for a short time would not come up to my flat for a spot of tea when I had no intention of having sex with them. In their mind though that's what it meant.

If a RW wants to share a flat with you, she is definitely looking to "consummate" the relationship. It's is one of those underlining themes that you should know, unlike their western sisters. They're not looking to share food expenses or save money.

Reminds me of my first visit here. The woman told me in not so many words that we were going to share a flat and that I was expected to act like a gentleman only to have her walk (barged actually  ) in the bathroom while I was taking a shower after my arrival. The shower was a glass cabinet shower that left little to the imagination.

Funny, I don't remember doing much sightseeing that trip.

Don't wrap up your inaction in that department in the gentlemanly and respectful wrapper as you seem to want to do. She hasn't grown up in a society inhabited by southern gentlemen; don't buy into the guff that all these women are patiently waiting for hat doffing fellows to court them for over a year before giving them a peck on the cheek. It doesn't work like that there. She has invested nine months in getting to know you and you didn't take the opportunity to progress the relationship to the next natural level despite travelling thousands of miles to see her.

She will most likely feel you rejected her.

In my view, the writing is on the wall here, and however you tilt your head, it doesn't read well.

This is just excellent advice for some of the less experienced men on this board (the whole post actually). As been mentioned many times, DO NOT treat these ladies exactly like you would AW. Be respectfull of course, but if a women here wants to share a flat with you and you have established at least a little chemistry, it's on. A man takes his woman here in this situation.

"Most likely" really should be absolutely. Phrases you'll never here a RW utter; "It's too soon to have sex" and "I'm not ready' when it comes to being with a man. Well at least if they're sharing the same apt with you.

[Chicagoguy]

Chivo, Manny

I agree with everyone about the kiss but as for the sex it might be difficult to have sex with a 3 year old nearby. Almost all the advice books in America frown on unmarried couples having sex with a chance the child might be involved.

However, if motivated, there must be ways to make arrangements to be alone.

[BC]

Seems 508 is following the commandments..

8. Always be yourself. Show the ladies the real you. Be truthful. Use current photos.

9. Do not rush into this! Take your time and be methodical, not impulsive, about this process.

10. Treat international dating the same as dating someone from your home country. The biggest difference is the cost (travel, phone. etc). This is an expensive process. Don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise.

I beg to differ with those insisting on that first trip first kiss rule.  He may well be 'being himself', not rushing things, not acting impulsively and treating dates 'over there' as he would at home.  There are no commandments dictating intimacy at first date.

Considering this was a first trip to meet a penpal for the first time, as long as some interest to meet again exists then no big deal. There will be a right time and a right place for everything. The commandments discourage OWW - Had he come back with a K1 we'd really be bashing him now.

Some may hit me over the head with the clue bat comparing my response to 'THE KISS' question in this thread vs the famed 'PG' thread.. but before you swing there are huge differences..

508 did not fly home with signed K1 paperwork without a kiss or great level of intimacy.
508 is not expounding upon return as to having found his only true love and partner for the rest of his life.
508 is taking critique like a man and not taking a totally defensive stance against any poster posing hints of doubt.
508 clearly states he doesn't know where this will lead, but is willing to see how things develop and has the next trip planned regardless of outcome.

As a 'get your feet wet' trip he probably did quite all right.  All considered - more positives than negative.

Excellent TR btw.



 

[cppd508]

Again, I want to thank everyone for their posts. 

Chivo, I am being as honest as possible not only with the facts, but also what was going through my mind, and my after thoughts.  Not only because "that is the way I roll," as some people say on here," (I really like that line), but also because I want others who might go for the first time to have the opportunity to have some knowledge based on my experience.  I am a man, and the thought definitely crossed my mind that the night we shared the flat something might happen.  There were a couple things I feel prevented me from taking some action.  First, was the fact that her daughter was  present in the flat.  For me it felt a little awkward trying anything because the two of them were in the bedroom together, and I was sleeping on the couch in the living room.  I also feel a big part of me wasn't ready to get this involved the second night of being there.  I know that if sex had occurred, I would have lost my ability to think objectively.  Other men might be able to feel a comfortable with acting differently then me, and I do not judge them.  For me, I just really wanted to try to remain clear headed, and also did not want to get into the awkward situation of a three year old possibly waking up, and catching us.

Chicagoguy, I think you hit the nail on the head.  I know for me personally it definitely felt awkward trying anything with her child there.  I did learn though, that I definitely need to be more balanced in being respectful and aggressive.  I think I allowed myself to worry too much about being respectful, that I really missed an opportunity.  As the saying goes, "you live, you learn."  Having hindsight, I think not having shared even one kiss, not only likely left her a little confused, but also left me feeling a bit a confused myself.  I guess the one thing I forgot to keep in mind, was how much you can tell from a kiss.  I'm not the type to cry over spilled milk though, and know better for next time.

BC, the trip definitely in my eyes had many more positives than negatives.  I am not a foolish person, and went realizing that this might not lead anywhere beyond a first meeting.  I know that sometimes things seem great and perfect when corresponding, but when you are face to face things become real.  So, I knew there were risks that when we met, the chemistry just might not continue.  So, I kept myself from getting goo-goo eyed, and always kept my head straight.  The trip for me, was not about meeting a beautiful woman, going as far as I could with her, and falling in love with her in the 8 days I was there.  The trip for me, was about seeing if this woman and me could connect in person.  I think I posted earlier, I am not approaching this because of some stereotype I read somewhere, that FSU women are a certain way.  I am approaching this, knowing what I want in a partner, and realizing her geographical background will not tell me if she does or does not have these things.  So the portion of the commandments you identified just seemed to happen naturally for me.  I also had in my mind some of the horror stories I have read on here, about WMVO or WOVO, and things not working out.  I accepted that this might turn into just a vacation.  And, even with all the quirks some associate with Ukraine, for me it definitely had some unique charms, outside of just the very beautiful women.  So, I definitely will visit there again in September, regardless of whether it will be to meet someone. 

[Faux Pas]

Well said BC.

Seems to be a lot of splitting hairs and Monday morning QB'ing. Everyone isn't an oversexed Casanova. Kisses or even getting laid makes for great memories but that fact that they didn't isn't "telling" one way or the other. The OP didn't find it appropriate given the circumstances. Who's to judge?

[facetrock]

  508, Your not planning on going back until September of next year? I hope thats a typo.

[cppd508]

Facetrock,

     Yes, sorry it was a typo.  I am going back in April.  If I can get more time off from work sooner, than I would definitely go back sooner.