Ukraine Trip... A Photo Essay + Random Thoughts

[Kuna]

So... for something a little different I thought I'd post pics from our September trip back to Ukraine and add some random thoughts I was having at the time, and others that have emerged since.

We were gone for the full month and spent a little over 3 weeks in Dnepropetrovsk with the rest of our time in Kiev.  A passport problem on our return home cost us a few extra days in Kiev (not a bad thing), and in total > $3500 in "special fees" for a new passport, air ticket changes and 4 nights back in the apartment we were staying at.

$%!& happens huh!

All in all we had a great trip but I have to say traveling so far with a two year old was certainly challenging.  Our eldest son struggled from day one to adjust to a new routine and it took almost 3 weeks after returning home for him to return to being a good little sleeper.  Our 8 month old boy traveled without problem, just like our eldest boy during last years trip. I guess there's a point some where between 8 months and 23 months where sleep routines change.  

So... in this thread there was no dating or wife hunting.  I met a few sex tourists but can't be accused of being one. I am not trying to tell frequent travelers how to suck eggs, but thought the info could be useful to men who've not traveled yet.

I'd welcome responses (negative or positive) re: the random thoughts because I will admit some of them may be more random than others.

[Kuna]

So why not start out with some of the most recognisable locations in Kiev? Independence Square and Kreshatik.

I think once you've been to Kiev a few times it's almost a cliche to hangout in Independence Square and to walk along Kreshatik -BUT, it must be done.

On this square you will see all sorts of people and get an immediately "sample"of what to expect.  Of course the season will greatly effect what's happening in and around thecentre of Kiev and as my last visit was in the dead of winter it was nice to have some warmer weather this time.

[Kuna]

Our first reality check?

Beauty is often discussed here...and there's no doubt there's lots of beautiful women in Kiev,  but newbies should also be aware that not all women are trim, taut and terrific and not all women will be idolised by local men. Perhaps it's then also fair to say that not all women WANT to be idolised by men.

Something that was immediately noticeable again was just how well the beautiful women dressed, and the confidence with which they walked. Maybe this alone makes them beautiful? Certainly some are truly genetically blessed, but to be honest a lot of women who would qualify as "beautiful" were probably average girls who present themselves very well.  I'm notsaying that makes them not beautiful,  but their presentation generally makes them stand out.

I actually thought of jb while on this day of my trip and his frequent comments about men having to dress well.  We've had other men claim "times have changed" and "UM don't dress up all the time,  why should we"?

Fact is,  if you want to stand out like the beautiful girls stand out,  you will want to dress well.

I had some interesting discussions with UM re: beauty, and I may get around to raising them later.

Anyway,  a few pics...  first of young "girls" who demonstrate that presentation CAN make a lady stand out... and the other photo is of girls sitting along Kreshatik eating, and probably not caring what people think.


AN IMPORTANT NOTE ON PHOTOS WHICH INCLUDE PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD

In some cases I've taken pics and looked later and noticed interesting things in the background or things that weren't noticed at the time of shooting.  You'll notice some of the photos are a little out of focus because they have been cropped from the original subject of the pic.

In other cases I DID see something/someone interesting and I took a photo at distance.  

Something I found interesting was that even in cases when I was not intentionally including someone in a photo when reviewing later it appears people are aware they are "in frame".  Makes me wonder how Jack gets all those "streetshots" with many womennot realising.

Anyway, this thread won't just include photos of people (menand women),  I'll try to tell a story which is more than short skirts and stony faced looks.

[Kuna]

Atheists Move on...

Something that touched me and had a lasting impact on me from my first trip was the beauty of the churches in Kiev.  I've posted a few photos to give a visual review of these beautiful locations but those with Christian beliefs may experience more than visual stimulation when actually visiting churches in Kiev,  and I would say especially in Moscow too (which was a little different for me).

Anyway,  I hope you enjoy these photos.

The first are of course the immediately recognisable St Michael's in Kiev and the later pics are of the Kiev Pechersk Lavra.

[Kuna]

Arriving in Dnepr

We took a private "bus" from Kiev to Dnepropetrovsk because we thought it would be easier on the children to be able to spread out and sleep rather than force another take off and landing on them.  Ultimately I think it was a good decision as the ride down (6 hours from memory) was comfortable and interesting and even though it takes much longer than flying it added a little something to the trip.

For those that are interested it cost USD$300 and the cost would have been the same for a car or the 7 seater Mercedes bus.  The cars for this trip were organised through the aparment booking service we used.

Anyway,  this pic is of atrium inside MOCT (Pronounced Moss-t) Centre and is an example of how Ukraine is not all old Soviet style buildings and ornate churches.

The cae on the first floor of MOCT is calledAtrium (funnily enough) and serves nice food at reasonable prices.

Upstairs and basically behind from where this photo is taken there is a busy little coffee shop with wifi if you need it.  The receipt after you buy something has a code on it that you use to access the wifi service (goodspeed,very reliable)... and if you need wifi you'll also like to know the code doesn't change day by day. 

Strangely, you CANNOT buy a beer in this coffee shop(a first for everything I guess),  but you can buy quite nice Ukrainian "congac" to warm your body if you need it.

Aswe'realready talking food etc here's a few observations and tips on MOCT for you:

- Portafino is a large restaurant located on the first floor directly across from where this photo is taken.  You can't really see it in thepicbut if you get to MOCT you won't miss Portafino on the first floor.  Why is that interesting??? Well,  we were there one Thursday night and I have no idea what was happening but almost the whole restaurant was full of stunning women in groups, eating sushi and drinking wine. One group would leave and another group would arrive... and I promise you it really was a sight to be seen.

Not so much because of the beatiful women, but because of the unusual procession of group after group coming in together,  eating, drinking a bottle of wine together and leaving to make way for the next group.  The looked like they were coming in after work, they varied in ages from mid twenties to maybe mid-forties, and were again proof that presentation makes the difference for even an average looking woman.

-Pozata Huta is a "brasserie" serving traditional Ukrainian food. There's a chain of them through Ukraine and one is located on the first floor of MOCT if you're craving some blini or hoblutsi.   


Generally, MOCT is a good place to have a feed, get some aircon, use a clean toilet, access the internet and meet a lady if that's the purpose of your trip.


btw... Internet was supposed to be available but was "down" in Atrium and Portafino throughout our stay.

[Jack]

Hey Kuna, I noticed in a couple of your photos you have taken pictures of the outside of my flat. 

Kuna I believe a lot of the ladies know their photos are being taken. A few days ago I was looking at some photos I had taken recently of everyday normal Ukraine ladies and in many of these photos you can see where the woman has just seen her photo was being taken and the smile beginning to  come across her face.  I'll try to add some of those photos in a new thread later today or tomorrow.

Thanks for your photos.

Looks like we were in Kiev and Dneprop at the same time. Next time your in Kiev holler at me, the first three rounds are always on me.

[SANDRO43]

Atheists Move on...

Non-believers, too, can enjoy architectural beauties - of whatever denomination .

[Kuna]

Non-believers, too, can enjoy architectural beauties - of whatever denomination .

Yeah, but just as a gay may appreciate a beautiful woman by saying "Ohhh, she has lovely hair", an atheist might stand outside and think, "Dude, nice gold dome."

If the atheist goes inside the church he won't appreciate the experience as much as someone with a true faith.

lLikewise, the gay... with a beautiful woman... well... he can't possibly appreciate what he is missing out on... if he coud only see more than her hair...and handbag.







Jack,  Great position for that flat... I assume those New Years Parties are really something to see!

[Ade]

Yeah, but just as a gay may appreciate a beautiful woman by saying "Ohhh, she has lovely hair", an atheist might stand outside and think, "Dude, nice gold dome."

If the atheist goes inside the church he won't appreciate the experience as much as someone with a true faith.

And you know this because...?

My opinion is that there will be many "truly faithful" as unable to appreciate architectural splendour as a horse's ass. Likewise with atheists. Faith in one of more deities doesn't magically make you any more or less appreciative of things like an amazing building.  

[Kuna]

And you know this because...?

... because I have gay friends and employees, and I've asked them about their preferences and how on earth they couldn't find a beautiful woman alluring. I guess some people are born with something missing.   

I promise you this will not turn into a debate over anal sex and male G-Spots. If you blokes are going to become disruptive you can jam it up you're own ass and go back to the forum which has a startling lack of valuable posts in recent months as result (I assume ) of all the trollish behaviour.

My opinion is that there will be many "truly faithful" as unable to appreciate architectural splendour as a horse's ass. Likewise with atheists. Faith in one of more deities doesn't magically make you any more or less appreciative of things like an amazing building. 

Your opinion is worthless in this case because I was originally reflecting on the response I saw in my wife on my first trip when we went into St Michael's and the emerging reconsideration I went through with regards to my own religious denomination after visiting St Michael's and other RU Orthodox churches.

Others with faith in Christianity may feel the same as I did. Those without religious faith cannot be filled with the same sensations. Yes, they can stand there and say, "That's a beautiful building", but even if they go inside, without faith, they will not experience the more powerful experiences that those with religious faith might, including myself.

Some with religious faith may not gawk at the architecture...  but those without faith can never appreciate what they don't understand.

Without God, the structure is empty, just as the perception of the atheist will be...

I don't expect you to understand... I just expect you to contribute positively, if at all.


Please remember, I'm not writing this to tell those already traveled and/or married how to suck eggs, I hope some newbie at some time in the future will make his first trip a little more informed and a little better prepared.

[Kuna]

More of the new and of the old...

Over the past few years I've noticed ongoing development in Dnepropetrovsk which seems contrary to the reports we hear of the economy. There is no doubt that the economic conditions are making life more difficult but at the same time there seems to be reasonable property investment going on.

It's not only in commercial spaces either as walking around the area where my wife's apartment is shows a number of people renovating apartments and building new houses.

In the first photo you'll see a completed renovation of an older building which has been remarkable. Last year when we were there this was a dirty building site but it's now transformed into a very beautiful set of offices with some shops on ground floor. It is located on Karl Marx across from the Grand Hotel.

Seeing this building revived gives some idea of what Dnepropetrovsk may have been like in it's day... and I would think this intersting city was once beautiful too.

The second photo is of a new office tower which saddens me a bit because it appears to be just another "cookie-cutter" glass and steel scar in a city  with so many beautiful old buildings.

I hope they can manage "progress" without losing the essence of history when new investment starts flowing again in future.

[Gator]

Faith in one of more deities doesn't magically make you any more or less appreciative of things like an amazing building.  

Exactly what I would expect an atheist to think, yet not knowing. 

[Gator]

Kuna,

Good thread!  Appreciating such is part of understanding the RW at your side.

You are correct about  Dnepropetrovsk's buildings.   I really enjoyed riding the trolley up the hill and down the hill, taking in the wide avenue, people, trees, shops, and fine old buildings along the main drag.  I rode that trolley a couple of times just to relax without needing to go anywhere.

[Ade]

... because I have gay friends and employees, and I've asked them about their preferences and how on earth they couldn't find a beautiful woman alluring. I guess some people are born with something missing.   

I promise you this will not turn into a debate over anal sex and male G-Spots. If you blokes are going to become disruptive you can jam it up you're own ass and go back to the forum which has a startling lack of valuable posts in recent months as result (I assume ) of all the trollish behaviour.

Dude, making sweeping generalisations and trying to belittle people for absolutely no good reason such as you did is pretty much trolling.

Your opinion is worthless in this case because I was originally reflecting on the response I saw in my wife on my first trip when we went into St Michael's and the emerging reconsideration I went through with regards to my own religious denomination after visiting St Michael's and other RU Orthodox churches.

Others with faith in Christianity may feel the same as I did. Those without religious faith cannot be filled with the same sensations. Yes, they can stand there and say, "That's a beautiful building", but even if they go inside, without faith, they will not experience the more powerful experiences that those with religious faith might, including myself.

Some with religious faith may not gawk at the architecture...  but those without faith can never appreciate what they don't understand.

Without God, the structure is empty, just as the perception of the atheist will be...

I don't expect you to understand... I just expect you to contribute positively, if at all.


Please remember, I'm not writing this to tell those already traveled and/or married how to suck eggs, I hope some newbie at some time in the future will make his first trip a little more informed and a little better prepared.

And what people like you obviously don't understand at all is the absolute awe that a person can feel about the world and the things in it without the rather redundant inclusion of a supernatural being.    Whatever dude, you keep your nice little self delusion if it makes you happy.

[Kuna]

Kuna,

Good thread!  Appreciating such is part of understanding the RW at your side.

You are correct about  Dnepropetrovsk's buildings.   I really enjoyed riding the trolley up the hill and down the hill, taking in the wide avenue, people, trees, shops, and fine old buildings along the main drag.  I rode that trolley a couple of times just to relax without needing to go anywhere.

Gator,

I assume those relaxing rides weren't in the height of summer because I've been on the tram a few times in summer and the stench of body odor from some of the men was enough to literally make me gag... but I know what you mean.

I actualy find Dnepr a very enjoyable place to relax in. There are many locations I've found over these trips where I can escape from"the race" but still be connected enough to observe and enjoy all that is going on around me.

[dogspot]

Others with faith in Christianity may feel the same as I did. Those without religious faith cannot be filled with the same sensations. Yes, they can stand there and say, "That's a beautiful building", but even if they go inside, without faith, they will not experience the more powerful experiences that those with religious faith might, including myself.

bull$hit

[Kuna]

bull$hit

Your post and avatar are obviously indicative of your capacity to reason and understand...therefore I'd suggest you stick your head back up your a$$!

[Kuna]

Dude, making sweeping generalisations and trying to belittle people for absolutely no good reason such as you did is pretty much trolling.

And what people like you obviously don't understand at all is the absolute awe that a person can feel about the world and the things in it without the rather redundant inclusion of a supernatural being.    Whatever dude, you keep your nice little self delusion if it makes you happy.

I don't need to belittle you as you're doing it yourself by disrupting a thread aimed at helping future newbies.


What gets me about "free thinkers" is that they are very often the most closed minded people you could have the misfortune to meet.

There are many things in science and generally in life that I don't understand yet I know they are real. Strangely, atheists will often say there is no proof of the existence of God yet they are contented to submit to far more speculative theories like man-made global warming and other oddities. It's classic hypocrisy!

I just want to assure you that I feel sorry for you because your lack of faith denies you of an ability to appreciate, accept and understand something that is very real. No one can convince you of this though because they are always very personal experiences.

If you've not found it,  it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means you've not found it.

As for an atheist having the capacity of appreciating something they don't accept... it's just not possible.  Stand outside of a church, or inside, and gawk all you want, but if you don't have a relationship with the Church you can't possibly appreciate it (The Church,  not the structure).



Anyway,  this thread is to give a little info to future newbies not to satiate your desire to disrupt the mission and purpose of RWD.  

[Kuna]

Want to get attention while in Ukraine???


If you have ever been to Ukraine and felt like you didn't get the attention you deserved, I'd suggest you try this:

Take a 23 month old and an 8 month old in a pram likethis(http://philandteds.com/products/push/dash) and you're sure to get LOTS of attention.

Our family spent a few days in Bangkok on the way into Ukraine and you really get sick of locals wanting to touch your kids. They are VERY friendly but it really gets to a point where you just want to move on and do your own thing.

Before arriving in Ukraine my wife commented it will be a relief to get to there because people won't care about the children and we can be anonymous again... well, it didn't happen like that.

People were often more discrete, sometimes not, but the boys still got a lot of attention when we were out and about. I couldn't get photos of all of the people who wanted photos of them (and with them) but here's a few from one days walk along Karl Marx.

By the way... itseems the biologicalpeckingorderofcluckiness holdstruealloverthe world...

- Females were more overly interested than males (though it was virtually 50/50 in Bangkok)

- Young girls more likely to take photos or try to hold their hands...

- Women around 30 and up were most likely to want to hold themand kiss them.

- Men would show an interest, but if a man was with a woman who was showing interest be would be the first to start walking off (as I would do too)


It certainly wasn't the frenzy you get in Bangkok but the perception that Ukrainians are cold or disconnected was smashed on this trip.

More on this later maybe...

[Ade]

I don't need to belittle you as you're doing it yourself by disrupting a thread aimed at helping future newbies.

Come off it. You know very well that you made the first unnecessary inflammatory statement that had nothing to do with the subject at hand; 3 people have commented on that, did you expect anything different?

What gets me about "free thinkers" is that they are very often the most closed minded people you could have the misfortune to meet.

There are many things in science and generally in life that I don't understand yet I know they are real. Strangely, atheists will often say there is no proof of the existence of God yet they are contented to submit to far more speculative theories like man-made global warming and other oddities. It's classic hypocrisy!

I just want to assure you that I feel sorry for you because your lack of faith denies you of an ability to appreciate, accept and understand something that is very real. No one can convince you of this though because they are always very personal experiences.

If you've not found it,  it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means you've not found it.

As for an atheist having the capacity of appreciating something they don't accept... it's just not possible.  Stand outside of a church, or inside, and gawk all you want, but if you don't have a relationship with the Church you can't possibly appreciate it (The Church,  not the structure).

No surprises that you bleat out the same silly meaningless noises as most others in your "flock". Sheep and shepherd always were the right metaphor.

Anyway,  this thread is to give a little info to future newbies not to satiate your desire to disrupt the mission and purpose of RWD.  

Then stick to the topic at hand instead of trying to denigrate people lucky enough not to be afflicted with the god gene.

[Kuna]

Time to talk about salad...


For the benefit of SJ (who really is Seriously Jaded apparently) I'm going to bite my tongue and change the topic.

Something I LOVE about eating in Ukraine is the vast variety of salads you can choose from.  Here we'll get a few choices in a restaurant but often in Ukraine you'll find menu's with large sections dedicated to salads...

Now some of the salads aren't really sides - they are meals in themselves... and I have to warn you many of them wouldn't be considered very healthy because they use so much mayonnaise,  but examples like the one pictured were both delicious, and appropriate for this point in the thread.

[Kuna]

Not all Ukrainian women have beautiful souls



This may be unfair to this lady because she may have just been having a very bad day but this photo is actually very flattering compared to the aura she was giving off on the day.

It seemed like such a contrast between all of the colourful (fake) flowers,  colourful ribbons, traditional dress and music playing in the background - and the obvious mood she was in at the time.



For the guys only looking for pics of beautiful women... don't worry, some are coming later! 

[Kuna]

Dnepropetrovsk Day of the City 2010

If you can be in Dnepr in Sept for the Day of the City it is well worth taking the time to coordinate it.

Globu Park was packed with people and entertainment...  special craft markets were out and there seems to be entertainment right through the city.

One problem is that they close off the centre of the city to traffic so if you're commuting in you can end up with quite a walk to get around... which shouldn't be too much trouble unless you have a 79 yr old mother in tow.

So... onto the photos:

#1  in this post is of the new square in front of the Ukrainian Theatre just off Karl Marx.

Behind the stage you can see is an area with MANY stalls selling legal and pirated CD's and DVD's, new and secondhand books, basic electrics (like cables and connectors) and some children's toys.  Have a potter around in here and you're sure to find some interesting little bits and pieces even if only an old secondhand Soviet-era book to take back and put on your coffee table at home.

# 2 shows the laneway where all the movies/music stall are

# 3 is just one of MANY MANY examples of a very well photographed fountain in Dnepropetrovsk. This is right next to the Theatre of Opera on Karl Marx and a bit of a gathering point on weekends. It's incredible how many people are up getting their photos taken all day long.  On this particular day it was quite warm so it was an enjoyable hour or so when we were able to sit back and have a cold beer while watching the world go by.

# 4 is clipped from a general crowd shot taken in Globu Park on the day. After looking back on this photo I remember seeing the girl/woman on the left (dressed in black and taking a photo) with her family and now that I count I realise there are 16 women in this photo and she is the only one I would consider to be any where near "beautiful".

So, we know not ALL Ukrainian women are beautiful but what do you think... is 1 in 16 unrepresentative and was this just a poorly timed shot, or do we just focus more on the beautiful girls when there and tend to block out the unattractive/fat/poorly dressed ones?

[pitbull]

Want to get attention while in Ukraine???


If you have ever been to Ukraine and felt like you didn't get the attention you deserved, I'd suggest you try this:

Take a 23 month old and an 8 month old in a pram likethis(http://philandteds.com/products/push/dash) and you're sure to get LOTS of attention.

Our family spent a few days in Bangkok on the way into Ukraine and you really get sick of locals wanting to touch your kids. They are VERY friendly but it really gets to a point where you just want to move on and do your own thing.

Before arriving in Ukraine my wife commented it will be a relief to get to there because people won't care about the children and we can be anonymous again... well, it didn't happen like that.

People were often more discrete, sometimes not, but the boys still got a lot of attention when we were out and about. I couldn't get photos of all of the people who wanted photos of them (and with them) but here's a few from one days walk along Karl Marx.

By the way... itseems the biologicalpeckingorderofcluckiness holdstruealloverthe world...

- Females were more overly interested than males (though it was virtually 50/50 in Bangkok)

- Young girls more likely to take photos or try to hold their hands...

- Women around 30 and up were most likely to want to hold themand kiss them.

- Men would show an interest, but if a man was with a woman who was showing interest be would be the first to start walking off (as I would do too)


It certainly wasn't the frenzy you get in Bangkok but the perception that Ukrainians are cold or disconnected was smashed on this trip.

More on this later maybe...

This sounds like a very unusual experience. I've never seen people pay much (if any) attention to other people's kids in the FSU unless the kids misbehave badly. Have you noticed whether this is normal behavior in Ukraine now, or did just your kids get special attention from the locals? If yes, is it only because you had an unusual stroller?

[Kuna]

This sounds like a very unusual experience. I've never seen people pay much (if any) attention to other people's kids in the FSU unless the kids misbehave badly. Have you noticed whether this is normal behavior in Ukraine now, or did just your kids get special attention from the locals? If yes, is it only because you had an unusual stroller?

Interesting questions pitbull... we don't know why (exactly), and it wasn't expected. 

I think the pram probably was an icebreaker in many cases as my wife said at one point it was strange many people were commenting on the pram but no one asked where we got it.

One day we were out with one of my wife’s friends and my wife had to run off to get some documents translated.  Her friend and I walked around the block a few times and she said many of the comments were about the boys being "so beautiful".  I suspect my youngest son was getting attention because he is such a big unit... at 8 months of age his height, weight and head circumference is in the 98th percentile.     :hairraising:


I'd say it's still not "normal behaviour" because it was much less common in Kiev than in Dnepropetrovsk, but there wasn't a day go bye in Dnepr when we stopped or were stopped for people to chat with the boys. 



Oh, final thought...  it was so noticeable and surprising within the first few days that I taught my 2yr old to say, "poka poka" and blow a kiss, which brought squeals of delight from the ladies... Took a few more days to teach him NOT to blow kisses to the men though!