Its mostly about finding a wealthy westerner, isn't it? :)

[Aloe]

Andreas,

The fact that the vast majority of RW are motivated by economic circumstances is not really
a secret, I have often commented on the fact that there are other countries where the indiginous
male population has a similar attitude to RM yet the women don't feel compelled to leave en-masse.

The economic outlook for a young RW/UW is quite bleak - very few jobs, very poor pay and housing options
and still lots of discrimination in the workplace, men for the most part merely add to this problem
as there is a high incidence of failed marriages where husband departs and leaves wife and children
to fend for themselves with no economic support, the amount of single young women then maginifies the problems
are RM are then more unwilling to take on financial responsibility for another mans offspring when they
could easily find a younger mate with no baggage. This situation compounds the already economically difficult
position women find themselves in. a lot of current under 25 women I know are from families where there mother
has been left in such a situation and their mothers are often instrumental in telling their daughters not to
repeat their mistake, they are well aware that going to the west improves their own ability to have economic
independance and also be more protected legally by divorce and mainteance laws and social welfare.

Being pragmatic these women are often prepared to trade some of their "ideal man" wishlist for a better overall
position in life therefore you see some pretty strange pairings.

The question you should really be asking, is not are the women econimically motivated but (understanding that they are)
is what I have to offer sufficient that if she does come she will want to stay with me? am i a good enough match
partner for her once her economic situation is to her liking that she would still consdier me a desirable partner
all things being equal?

A lot of men make this mistake, batting well out of your average is a short term play, if you are the sort of partner a woman
would find desirable, and you improve her economic circumstances then she will be inclined to stay with you, if however
you are merely a means to a ends for her to solve a set of problems so she can then go "onwards and upwards" then you have a problem.

How you fare with this issue is entirely down to how realistic you are in choosing potential matches, how honest she is in choosing you as a match and your respective characters being sufficient to maintain a good LTR.

Catching is easy, keeping is hard.

jeez, all these assumptions. All i wanted was a good guy who won't cheat on me   

[Steamer]

My theory is that its mostly money that attracts RW to WM.

What I've seen is that most RW want social and economic security for themselves and their kids. Just a few years ago the Russian economy was on the verge of total collapse and war seemed everywhere. A very tough place to raise a family. As this improves it's only natural that more R/U women will stay where they are. Money is nice but not the only consideration.

Saying that RW are looking mostly for money sounds like you're saying that RW are mostly gold diggers.

[neo]

I should clarify my post,

I personally wasn't suggesting RW are golddiggers for wanting a better economic outlook. It is a natural part of a womans psyche to secure a man who will provide a stable and secure situation for her and her children. Looking for a "good man" i.e someone who isnt a alcoholic wifebeater or a infidelity prone womaniser is merely part of this "security" package.

my argument is that RW feel they will secure a better deal in the west is that while men are just as likely to be philandering jerks, the level of legal protection and social security afforded to them when things go wrong is much higher, therefore the situations that many women find themselves in (abandoned to poverty with a child) are much less likely to happen.

Saying that a woman wants a "better economic situation" is not the same as saying she is marrying for money or being a gold-digger.

What is clear however that due to the economic cirumstances of certain countries there is a much bigger proportion of women who are looking to find partners outside their own country than those that already have economic stability.

I'm sure if the UK or US economy collapsed the women here would also be rushing to board a boat to Dubai or Qatar, but the fact they are already economically protected means the risks of getting a bad husband are mitigated by the protection they are afforded when things go wrong.

I do disagree that for the most part there is something endemic about Russian Men being worse than any other nationality in terms of their behaviour to women, as mentioned on another thread middle-eastern men, Spanish and Italians can be just as bad yet the amount of women looking to leave their countries are much smaller.

I think where andreas is probably wrong is in confusing a desire for a materialistically better life vs the very understable desire for a more economically secure and stable life.

But any girl who comes to the west thinking men don't cheat, drink or hit women is in for a big dissapointment as much as any man going to Russia expecting all women will make better wives.

[Misha]

But any girl who comes to the west thinking men don't cheat, drink or hit women is in for a big dissapointment as much as any man going to Russia expecting all women will make better wives.

Yes, but as you say, the legal protections are better when it does happen. I knew of one case over a decade ago involving a Russian-speaking couple who had immigrated to Canada. They had a loud argument in their apartment, neighbors called the police, who showed up and arrested the husband on the suspicion that something might have happened or could possibly happen. I can't see this ever happening in Russia.

[ECOCKS]

If you want to be taken seriously, quit carrying on incessantly about your weight-lifting and billing rates then. They have nothing to do with the discussion and have cemented a picture of an egotistical, self-centered narcissist.

As for seriously discussing the issue you say you are interested in then fine.

There are basically two dynamics at work for those FSUW who are seriously interested in relationships with foreigners.

First, disparity of life style drives willingness to immigrate. Whether the lifestyle influences are economic, political, social or personal something drives them to leave one place and move to another. When they see a benefit they begin to consider immigration. Once you are considering immigration then many people will widen their dating pool to include people who will be where you are wanting to go. These become willing relationship partners if you find them. Marry someone who sees you as a lifestyle ticket and I think you are in for troubles.

Second, FSUW do fall in love. When they do they move to where they and their man decide to live. America, Britain, India, China, Taiwan, Australia, NZ, CZ, AU, IT, Nigeria, wherever. Generally women everywhere prefer safety, stability, food, clothing, employment prospects and an acceptable lifestyle. My wife and I considered moving to China and the only questions where what would she do for employment and what sort of lifestyle would we be looking at? This is a pretty normal reaction whether you two are thinking of living in Frog Jump, TN; Tokyo or Stockholm. Marry someone who loves you and does view your relationship as economic servitude or someone she tolerates for a car and handful of credit cards then your life will probably go better.

I did say "seriously interested". The third category of course is the gal who regards you as a job. She might be a hooker in Odessa, a university student in Kharkiv or a single mom in Vinnitsya. There is no serious emotional relationship there, only a financial one.

For someone trying so hard to convince us of your worthiness, you seem woefully ignorant of life and people.

[neo]

Yes, but as you say, the legal protections are better when it does happen. I knew of one case over a decade ago involving a Russian-speaking couple who had immigrated to Canada. They had a loud argument in their apartment, neighbors called the police, who showed up and arrested the husband on the suspicion that something might have happened or could possibly happen. I can't see this ever happening in Russia.

Absoloutely right Misha, Security is about more than financial issues, its about personal safety. Domestic violence exists both there and here, the difference here is that the woman feels she has more recourse, therefore the incidence is probably lower due to the consequences being higher.
 

[Gylden]

For all of those in denial about the financial security questions. Look at it this way to find the answers........How many WW are migrating to the FSU in the name of love? Compared to how many FSU women are migrating to the west?
This is not rocket science and I might add totally normal behavior as well.
The big question for WM is how to be reasonably sure you are not planning to marry a gold digger? Everyone must make those decisions to the best of their ability and sometimes will make mistakes regardless. It is one of the reasons forums on the subject exist.
 

[dbneeley]

For all of those in denial about the financial security questions. Look at it this way to find the answers........How many WW are migrating to the FSU in the name of love? Compared to how many FSU women are migrating to the west?
This is not rocket science and I might add totally normal behavior as well.
The big question for WM is how to be reasonably sure you are not planning to marry a gold digger? Everyone must make those decisions to the best of their ability and sometimes will make mistakes regardless. It is one of the reasons forums on the subject exist.
 

I think females of many species are driven with a strong "nesting instinct"--to be sure there is a secure and nurturing environment for offspring if nothing else. In humans, this can be expressed in many ways and is far more complex and more subtle than in lesser species.

Still, many women are not so completely money-motivated. In fact, the best ones are completely willing to work side by side with their mate to build a more secure life than either one would have on their own. My wife is definitely one of this type, for which I am constantly grateful!

I think it is largely this distinction that separates a normal desire for reasonable security and the gold digger, who is more inclined to a "what's in it for me?" attitude.

Of course, there are many who are somewhat in the middle on this kind of scale--including those ladies who are said to be "high maintenance" types. Of course, what is viewed as "high maintenace" depends to a large extent upon the social and financial class involved, plus the "wanna-be" types who are looking to move up to a life of leisure where the most strenuous exercise is swiping credit cards in a card reader.

David

[GQBlues]

Most members of this board seem much more interested in discussing what a big ass I am; which is no surprise since is a forum for men searching RWs. I think Henrik Ibsen wrote something about this in his novel "The Wild Duck":
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Henrik_Ibsen#The_Wild_Duck_.281884.29
(bottom quote)

Interestingly enough Andreas, on the same site lies a quote a bit more apt to the topic of the thread in more ways than one.....

"You see, the point is that the strongest man in the world is he who stands most alone."     When you get down to it, it's not a crime being different. Happy New Year!

btw..is the "sex dates" better termed as escort services?  No judgment, just asking...

[Gylden]

Still, many women are not so completely money-motivated. In fact, the best ones are completely willing to work side by side with their mate to build a more secure life than either one would have on their own. My wife is definitely one of this type, for which I am constantly grateful!


David

I agree and I am married to the same type of woman as you. My point is that almost all women whether they are a gold digger or a sincere marriage partner will want a secure future and financial security is a part of it. They don't have to be completely money motivated to have this desire and it is understandable to me.
 

[Andreas]

Great post, Neo. I think you summarized my views on the matter in a great way.

Personally I would never consider marrying a woman unless I knew she was deeply in love with me and saw me as (close to) the ideal partner. This makes it harder, as one has to weed out all the pragmatics from the herd.

[Andreas]

Interestingly enough Andreas, on the same site lies a quote a bit more apt to the topic of the thread in more ways than one.....

"You see, the point is that the strongest man in the world is he who stands most alone."     When you get down to it, it's not a crime being different. Happy New Year!

Ibsen was a wise man.

btw..is the "sex dates" better termed as escort services?  No judgment, just asking...

No, they are not escorts. Just slutty girls using the internet instead of picking up a guy at a bar.

[Sail]

It is pretty easy to see who is a gold digger and who is not one will spend all your money and ask for more the other you take shopping she says everything is to expensive and only spends money when you give her a limit!

[Boethius]

No, they are not escorts. Just slutty girls using the internet instead of picking up a guy at a bar.

If you're hooking up with "slutty girls", what does that make you?

[Rubicon]

Rubicon, that remark is about as juvenile and uncalled for as it could get. IMHO. Seriously, what was your point?

really??  after all of the braggadocio about billing hours, weight lifting, looking for the perfect woman and crude tales of sex, I was expecting a handsome man like a young Warren Beatty or a George Clooney.  instead I see an overweight John Sununu.  

[Gator]

If you're hooking up with "slutty girls", what does that make you?

A man not interested in a long term relationship.

[Gator]

really??  after all of the braggadocio about billing hours, weight lifting, looking for the perfect woman and crude tales of sex, I was expecting a handsome man like a young Warren Beatty or a George Clooney.  instead I see an overweight John Sununu.  

Well, don't sleep with him.  He might have you squealing like a pig!  Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee! 

I would not term those video clips as glamorous facial shots.  So who knows what his face is like. Andreas is comfortable with how he looks, and that is good enough.

[Faux Pas]

really??  after all of the braggadocio about billing hours, weight lifting, looking for the perfect woman and crude tales of sex, I was expecting a handsome man like a young Warren Beatty or a George Clooney.  instead I see an overweight John Sununu.  

Yes really. It is a personal attack. Perhaps you should revisit the forum rules of conduct. If his looks don't appeal to you then don't ask him out. Unless of course you want to post your picture for critique

[Aloe]

war seemed everywhere. A very tough place to raise a family.

Huh War did not seem everywhere, it's very far south and been going on for many decades. It's like the sun and the rain, it's just there   It is something very very very far off from the reality and mind for vast majority of people.

I do not believe it even for a second that RW marry foreigners because they know they will have better protection by the law.
IMO, RW marry foreigners hoping/assuming that they are better(more loyal) than local men and also because it's a fun adventure to move somewhere new.
Since USSR was virtually closed off to the outside world, nearly no one could enter or leave, foreigners are incredibly intruiguing, unknown and mysterious to an average russian person. Hence the staring when you talk a foreign language on a street. Most people (save for Moscow) are not used to seeing foreigners, they know little about them and for some reason, many people are assuming that the foreigners somehow have better morals (i'm talking about people from western countries, not close-by countries).
Personally i also feel that western men are more loyal and a lot less slutty than RM. From my experience (asking questions) an average russian guy has 10 times more sex partners during his lifetime than an average western guy. Of course all of them could be lying, but if that's the case, then WM steadily diminish their named numbers and RM steadily exaggerrate. Also many WM name a threesome as one of their fantasies, while RM regard it as nothing special, because it's not uncommon.

[Gator]

IMO, RW marry foreigners hoping/assuming that they are better(more loyal) than local men and also because it's a fun adventure to move somewhere new.

You are young, adventurous with good family values and I consider your opinion valid given your perspective.
I dated older RW and they also had your family values (loyalty, reliability), yet there were some differences.   Those with kids were concerned about financial security.  Those RW whose kids are grown are more interested in starting a brand new life (same as your "it's a fun adventure').   And those without kids seemed to be searching for opportunity.   To reach these conclusions I had to do considerable analysis to filter out the effect that I (as a highly desirable man) had on the RW.   

Personally i also feel that western men are more loyal and a lot less slutty than RM. From my experience (asking questions) an average russian guy has 10 times more sex partners during his lifetime than an average western guy. Of course all of them could be lying, but if that's the case, then WM steadily diminish their named numbers and RM steadily exaggerate.

"From my experience (asking questions)..."       Aloe, you always amuse me and I am sure your husband finds you delightful.

Keep in mind that it takes two to tango, so this is also a statement about RW.   BTW, what were the approximate numeric responses regarding promiscuity? 

Also many WM name a threesome as one of their fantasies, while RM regard it as nothing special, because it's not uncommon.

If done with two women who are really into each other, there is not much for the man to do other than circle the entangled flesh.     I prefer the attention of one woman who really wants to be with me and only me.  Admittedly, at my age one woman is enough of a challenge. 

Aloe, does Andreas the OP remind you of a Western man or a Russian man?

[ML]

If done with two women who are really into each other, there is not much for the man to do other than circle the entangled flesh.    

Clearly you are not with the correct two women.  You describe a lesbian situation.  Rarely will those women want a 3rd person man involved.

The typical MÉNAGE À TROIS involves two very hetrosexual woman.  Yes, some interaction between the two women, but their main focus is on the male partner.

Here is an interesting and somewhat humorous story written by a woman who planned and carried out such a gift for her husband's 40th birthday.  

"How I Planned a MÉNAGE À TROIS"

http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/articles/threesome-sex-menage-a-trois-planning

Then, there is the story about the man who suggested a MÉNAGE À TROIS to his wife.
She replied:  "Sure . . . who will choose the second man?"

[Steamer]

Huh War did not seem everywhere, it's very far south and been going on for many decades. It's like the sun and the rain, it's just there   It is something very very very far off from the reality and mind for vast majority of people.

In the 90's Chechnya was quite the hot spot and was on the mind of a LOT of people, especially if you were of draft age. Bombs in Moscow, a coup attempt and terrorists. I don't know what daisy farm you grew up on but times were not that rosey.

[JohnDearGreen]

Personally i also feel that western men are more loyal and a lot less slutty than RM. From my experience (asking questions) an average russian guy has 10 times more sex partners during his lifetime than an average western guy. Of course all of them could be lying, but if that's the case, then WM steadily diminish their named numbers and RM steadily exaggerrate. Also many WM name a threesome as one of their fantasies, while RM regard it as nothing special, because it's not uncommon.

Hmm, something here doesn't add up:
a) There just aren't any single Russian guys worth dating (as several single RW here mentioned)
b) "average russian guy has 10 times more sex partners"

There must be a lot of happy married RM.

[Andreas]

Unless of course you want to post your picture for critique

If he posts a picture of his face, I'll be glad to post one of mine. Not that I claim to be more than average looking in the face, though.

[Andreas]

Also many WM name a threesome as one of their fantasies, while RM regard it as nothing special, because it's not uncommon.

So Russian women are quite casual about having threesomes with their husbands??? If so, then I'm activating my profile at Elena's Moldes right now!!!