Mental Health Check-up

[KevinD]

Thanks to all. A quick update. Everything is going very well. Now I am positive that I made the right decision in scheduling the trip. Originally the speed everything happened concerned me. But so far so good.

We are in daily Skype contact for 2-3 hours. She is very good at planning and she has put a lot of effort into our meeting. The apartment has been selected by mamma and my lady will check it out herself when she goes home for the holidays.

Markus -- My lady tells me the New Years is the biggest holiday in Ukraine. What I call Orthodox Christmas is not a big holiday. She tells me their Christmas Eve is just a dinner. But she is not religious so that may explain that. She is also frugal like your wife. She is always saying "but Kyeveen that is too expensive" (her accent is so very sexy).

Mies and ManLooking -- I would like to clarify about my earlier concerns about risqué photos and lack of any talk about physical relations.  That was not a big concern for me. I was just looking for any possible red flags. We have not had any specific discussions about sex or expectations. In one conversation she made a point of telling me that there were a lot of "strange" men on these sites. I asked her what she meant by "strange". She replied they were perverts. I assured her I was not a pervert and I had no exotic demands but I was also a man. She said she already knew that (or she would not have agreed to a meeting) but it was nice to hear. So that was it.

My advice to the newbies and lurkers would be, if it feels right and you have carefully thought through the risk, then a quick visit is the way to go.

All this may change upon the actual visit. Even if the visit goes as well as I expect and hope, that is just the beginning. The really hard work will be ahead of us.

Kevin

[mies]

Kevin,

I forgot to mention, in Russia New Years is the best holiday. If it's the same in Ukraine, which my wife couldn't confirm, that's a big plus.

New Year holidays is the biggest holiday in Ukraine. That's because it was essentially the only official non-political family&friends holiday in the USSR. The Christmas and Easter were banned, the other options were October Revolution Day, the Women's day (March 8th), and the Labor day (May 1st). People do celebrate religious holidays now, but the New Year is extremely important. Markus - Russian and Ukraine were the same country for 70 years of USSR, and they were the one country long time before that. We share same religion, and many other things in common. So you can safely assume that a holiday that is big in Russia, is as big in Ukraine & Belarus too.

Christmas celebration depends on how religious the family is. In some families it is just a dinner. In other families, especially in the Western Ukraine - this is the day when all family MUST get together, there are many rituals around it, and the Christmas holidays last from January 6th evening until early February. People go to church.   Kids are going from door to door, sing carols, "sow" (basically they carry grain and throw it into host's apartment, while the host gives them some money and treats, people get dressed in traditional costumes (a pagan heritage), many many other events are going on. Christmas Eve in Ukraine is supposed to be spent with family, and is not about loud fun, but just being happy together. New Year Eve in Ukraine is the time of loud celebration with all friends, not just in a family circle.

In these 4 videos costume are quite authentic, songs are contemporary. The plot of the musical is based on the story written by Gogol.

- at 6'58" is one of my all-favorite songs.




http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7372447427382549567#

[BillyB]

Kevin, do not listen to Billy's advice about sex talk and discussing religion and sexual preferences online. You can spoil your relationship with this woman irreparably if you follow Billy's advice.
This is my "Ukrainian woman's" opinion.
 

How does a guy have a relationship to spoil with a woman he never met? What is wrong with talking about important things in life? Why is talking about religion is bad? If a guy is an atheist, shouldn't he find out if the woman is the same or a religious fanatic? Should they wait for months and till thousands of $ is spent to have a first date meeting to talk religion or should they wait till marriage before disclosing this information?

I remember reading a thread where a man and RW had met and had a relationship for over one year. They already decided to get married. Then the talk about children came up. She wanted children and he could not have them anymore. They wasted over a year with each other because they failed to communicate.

Some RW have hinted I come visit their country. I tell them I won't go to visit their country or them as a friend. I will not travel half way around the world to visit a friend but I would travel to visit a woman that I feel I could live my life with. I then ask them some serious questions if I haven't done so already. I will even ask about their thoughts on intimacy in a relationship. If a woman is so cold she can't talk about it, I would not visit her. If she is excited to know me, she will be excited to talk to me. Many women are impressed with my "serious" questions. It's a long way off from the perverted talk that you are insinuating I do. One complaint from women is they don't get enough serious talk from men. The kind of talk about building a life and what happens within a relationship. Believe it or not, sex happens in a relationship.

On a slightly different note, what is wrong with the list of sexual preferences? Do you mind the preferences, or the fact that this woman states them openly?

- - - - -

Mies, are you in conflict here?  Or where would you draw the line?

A woman states her preferences in her profile and mies is not outraged but calm and asks Eduard questions as if he has a problem with what is written. A man talks about intimacy or religion with a woman before meeting her and mies is unhappy and sends out the alarm!

We have not had any specific discussions about sex or expectations. In one conversation she made a point of telling me that there were a lot of "strange" men on these sites. I asked her what she meant by "strange". She replied they were perverts. I assured her I was not a pervert and I had no exotic demands but I was also a man.

Kevin, I hope you went into more detail than just saying "I was also a man". This is the kind of conversation you can talk about intimacy with a woman without looking like a pervert. You talk to her hours everyday. You don't have to worry her if you voice your thoughts about how you wish your life with a woman to be. She has already ruled you out as a pervert who talks sex with every woman on the internet. Many decent ladies talk to me because they ruled me out as a pervert but when a conversation like you've had comes up, I tell them that I do have the normal needs of a man and I do need a woman in my life. Intimacy is important to me and I hope to find a woman that needs a man and intimacy in her life too. That opens the door for the ladies to talk about her thoughts and wishes within a relationship. Women who have the hots for you will appreciate the fact you have a physical desire for her and not a cold fish that's past his expiration date.

[mies]

Some RW have hinted I come visit their country. I tell them I won't go to visit their country or them as a friend. I will not travel half way around the world to visit a friend but I would travel to visit a woman that I feel I could live my life with.

Billy, we all may have different opinions on what is right and what is wrong. And we live our lives upon these opinions and beliefs.
For me, to sign up for sex or even more important - for living the life together (!) with a man I never met, only based on the online correspondence, videos and phonecalls - is a lunacy. Until i can see a real person, the "online guy" is a cat in a sack. And i'm not gambling with my life in this way. But i do understand your point. Quite possible you will find a woman who will have views compatible to yours, or at least the one who will be willing to adjust to your demands, or tolerate them for some time.
I did not say it is a perversion what you are doing, I said it's a personal preference, just like many others our there. And there is nothing wrong with it as long as the woman enjoys same things as you do. You may sugar coat it any way you like, the essence does not change.
For sex to happen in the relationship - there should be relationship to start with. Before you meet the person, - there is neither sex, nor real relationship. And you know the price of the talk, right? 

[mies]

This is the kind of conversation you can talk about intimacy with a woman without looking like a pervert. You talk to her hours everyday. You don't have to worry her if you voice your thoughts about how you wish your life with a woman to be. She has already ruled you out as a pervert who talks sex with every woman on the internet.

until the moment he will actually start talking sex over internet. Billy, are you intentionally trying to ruin Kevin's happiness only because you have your personal reservations about traveling half way around the world? Don't do it. Kevin has some good instincts. In the end - he is going to be with this woman, not me, and not Billy. So it's only fair that Kevin does what he feels is right.

[Markus]

My advice to the newbies and lurkers would be, if it feels right and you have carefully thought through the risk, then a quick visit is the way to go.
Kevin

Kevin,

Your emotion in your post has put me on the spot. I hope my comments don't turn into a big debate, but, I think they will. First, with respect to your
quote above, you are still a newbie. Even after your visit the 1st time you will still be a newbie. With me, I went through several different conversations
with different ladies over an 18 month period and I researched the process extensively on how to visit the FSU and how to behave. I'm an outgoing person
and that type of personality is good at times but in the FSU may not have the same results.  Keeping a low profile works best in the FSU.

Regardless of my process, I feel you should get a hold on your emotions and your excitement on your visit. In truthful posisbilities, imagine flying to Europe,
then making a connection to Ukraine. You are going to be dead tired and want to sleep. Now, I was wide awake when I arrived with the excitement.
I happened to arrive in Russia on 6 Jan, which I didn't know was Christmas. I went out with my now wife and her friends to light candles at the Orthodox
Church. (I'm assuming u live in the US).

I only mention your emotions because in the beginning stages of this process emotions are high. Fortunately, with me, the same emotions I experienced in the letter/phone
stage carried through when I met her in person. My 1st thought was she's too beautiful for me. Now after 6 years of marriage I feel the same. But, just
because my emotions carried through does not mean your's will. You may see her and immediately know that there's no way. If that happens, be a good man
and follow through with your plans. Don't use her. If on the other hand what you came to expect is there, then your'e on your own. But, slow down dude.
You don't have to marry her during the 1st visit. Don't let your emotions rule your attitude. I guess my whole point on all this is to slow down.

Maybe when you get back some guy will start a thread titled, "Is It Smart to be so Emotional?" There's some sarcasm and history behind that comment.

As far as BillyB, well, I agree with most comments Billy makes. Not once have I felt the need to oppose him. But, on this occasion, I need to say that talking
about everything is not a necessity before marriage. I'm a Tea Party guy myself and after discussing politics with my wife, I think she's leaning Democrat.
I always blame that leaning on being uneducated. I have some work to do.

With respect to BillyB being unmarried and giving opinions, he's schooled in areas that I'm not. But, just as the moderator Daveman, who shows himself at
looking for less than 2 years, and isn't married to an FSUW, the opinions of these folks who don't have a clue what it's like to be married to an FSUW amaze
me that they can moderate me who everyday experiences it, lives it, loves it, sometimes dislikes it, knows it, can see it, touch it, smell it, you know the 5
senses, yet, some guy "who is looking" can moderate me? There are some moderators who have been around but Daveman, according to his "looking"
status, is a man that needs to learn the ropes. BillyB, well, if he ever gets hitched, we will learn how he analyzed the stuff too much.

Kevin,

I wish you the best on your trip. Don't get your hopes too high but expect the best and have a backup plan. If you need any help on the experieced folks
coming at you, I'm here to support you or them.

Mark

[I/O]

IME, the women who mentioned sex over the net weren't worth a cracker in the sack (or anywhere else for that matter as it turned out). Empty barrels making the loudest noise and all.....................

[BillyB]

Until i can see a real person, the "online guy" is a cat in a sack. And i'm not gambling with my life in this way.

That's easy for ladies to say. A guy spends months writing you, dedicates limited vacation time, and spends thousands of $ to see you and within the first meeting it's easy for you to throw him away if you don't like something about him.

If a guy doesn't want to gamble with his life and ask you serious questions, why is that so bad?

Billy, are you intentionally trying to ruin Kevin's happiness only because you have your personal reservations about traveling half way around the world?  

Now it's my fault? Many guys have ruined their happiness visiting a stranger and that is what you're recommending. A guy may have to date 20 or more women to find one that he's compatible with and can live his life with. It's best to ask some questions before visiting a photo. I still don't know why you think people should not ask about something as innocent as religion before deciding to meet? The goal is to find someone you're compatible so it's best the questions come out sooner than later. If the man or woman find they couldn't live with the other for whatever reason, there is no need to meet and waste time on each other. They should do each other a favor and say goodbye and look for someone that is a better match.

Kevin should not worry about insulting the lady if he asks serious questions pertaining to life within a relationship. He will hurt the woman and himself if he marries her without she or he understanding each other.

on this occasion, I need to say that talking
about everything is not a necessity before marriage. I'm a Tea Party guy myself and after discussing politics with my wife, I think she's leaning Democrat.
I always blame that leaning on being uneducated. I have some work to do.

Markus, if I remember correctly, your wife isn't that young and usually when people hit 35, they are pretty much set in their ways. If your wife is a liberal and you conservative, there will be little you can do to change her. You are lucky if you and your wife's conflicting views asn't hurting your marriage. One can see it on the forums when people debate religion, politics, etc... and they lose respect and begin to hate each other with a passion. I could not marry a woman that has opposite views as I because I couldn't marry a woman I could not respect.

[I/O]

I could not marry a woman that has opposite views as I because I couldn't marry a woman I could not respect.

On this basis, methinks, in reality you're left with very few choices.

[mies]

That's easy for ladies to say. A guy spends months writing you, dedicates limited vacation time, and spends thousands of $ to see you and within the first meeting it's easy for you to throw him away if you don't like something about him.

yes, it is easy for me to say. woman too spends months writing, dedicates limited vacation time. She may not spend the money for the trip, but if you are unhappy about spending money on a trip - you can just date locally and avoid the hassle. Do you really believe that woman has to compensate your expenses with sexual services??    
Pardon me for asking serious questions, have you married yet any of the women whom you had sex with while in FSU, and whom you have carefully interrogated probed during detailed online interviews?

As for religion - i did not say one should not ask about the religion. I said that discussing religion in detail - is not such a good idea. It's just one of these sensitive topics that I believe people are better off when they are moderate at.

That's soothing to learn that you only have respect for people whose views are identical to yours. Must be tough job to disrespect on a daily basis billions of people. Tough job, but someone must do it  

[Markus]

Markus, if I remember correctly, your wife isn't that young and usually when people hit 35, they are pretty much set in their ways. If your wife is a liberal and you conservative, there will be little you can do to change her. You are lucky if you and your wife's conflicting views asn't hurting your marriage. One can see it on the forums when people debate religion, politics, etc... and they lose respect and begin to hate each other with a passion. I could not marry a woman that has opposite views as I because I couldn't marry a woman I could not respect.

BillyB,

I know I'm getting off thread here but I need to ask you:

0) Did I say my wife was liberal? If so, please requote it.

1) If my wife was a liberal, How do you know I could not change her if you know her. If you know her is the kicker. People learned about Obama and have changed.
   1a. Do you know how we have worked together in her English. She could correct my English and yours today.
   1b. Do you know her name?
   1c. Do you know her middle name? (I even have problems with that one)
   1d. Do you know her hobbies?
   1e. Did you know she can run a jack hammer....I didn't either until I saw her do it today. She's a tuffy....Bet you didn't that.
   1f. Does she drink alcohol or not.
   1g. Did you know she's a lawyer?
   1h. Did you know she has 3 degrees?  Do you know it what areas?
   1i, I could continue forever. But, I have one more
   1j, Do you know how good of a husband I am?
   1d. Let's go to 2

2). What is your personal experience with marriage to an FSU? I've already stated there isn't much difference with an AW.
     Based upon your experience with your marriage to an FSUW, am I right or wrong?  Keep in mind the basis is "based upon."

3) Do you base what you think you know upon other people?

4) With respect to marriage to an FSUW, how can I improve upon my current six years?

5. Based upon your experience?....ah never mind, you have no marriage experience with an FSUW.

Why is it guys like you who have zero experience at marriage with an FSUW try to portray yourself as knowing something about it?

I won't respond to this any more here, but, we could start another thread.

[BillyB]

On this basis, methinks, in reality you're left with very few choices.

I did say a guy has to date 20+ women to find one they are compatible with. I'm not going to marry the first woman I meet.

i did not say one should not ask about the religion. I said that discussing religion in detail 

I wasn't talking about discussing about religion and reading from the Bible either.

Pardon me for asking serious questions, have you married yet any of the women whom you had sex with while in FSU, and whom you have carefully interrogated probed during detailed online interviews?

Mies, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You're talking about having tests with real sex in meetings and phone sex. I'm not talking about that.

Did I say my wife was liberal? If so, please requote it.

You said she leans Democrat and you are Tea Party. She leans liberal and you are hard core conservative. That's what it means.

If my wife was a liberal, How do you know I could not change her if you know her.

Because you blamed her views are from being uneducated and you have some work to do. If you have not educated her and changed her political views in 6 years of marriage, you're probably not going to make any more progress.

Based upon your experience?....ah never mind, you have no marriage experience with an FSUW.

Why is it guys like you who have zero experience at marriage with an FSUW try to portray yourself as knowing something about it?

I have been married to an FSUW I met here in the States. I could be married to more but never popped the question. I have pulled out of one engagement. Maybe I should go rush to get married so I can be an expert again?

[Markus]

I have been married to an FSUW I met here in the States. I could be married to more but never popped the question. I have pulled out of one engagement. Maybe I should go rush to get married so I can be an expert again?

Billyb, Yes, I agree with your maybe. Take a lady away from her family and homeland, live with her in the U.S., then report back with your experience.

Kevin, that's how it works. That's the biggie on marrying an FSUW. It's not like meeting a local AW or RW down the road. You take her away from everything
she is comfortable with. The rest is up to you to make her feel a very similar comfort.

[I/O]

I did say a guy has to date 20+ women to find one they are compatible with.

Sorry I missed that but it is irrelevant because even if you date 200 + you aren't going to find compatibility based on your comment up thread. The point you are missing is the view you put forward opposes the view of most women and therefore, in your own words, you couldn't marry them as you wouldn't respect them. The jury remains out on why you wouldn't respect them, because their view is opposite or because they have a view at all.

I have pulled out of one engagement.

Ehem, isn't that gilding the lily slightly? As I recall your account of things, she chickened out on coming to America.

Maybe I should go rush to get married so I can be an expert again?

Maybe you should simply be a little more circumspect with advice you are unqualified to give?

[BillyB]

Billyb, Yes, I agree with your maybe. Take a lady away from her family and homeland, live with her in the U.S., then report back with your experience.

The FSU woman I married wasn't even in America for a year yet when I met her. Her green card wasn't even in the mail but she didn't need me to be here. I've reported back my experience a few times on the forum but you said I didn't have any.

The point you are missing is the view you put forward opposes the view of most women and therefore, in your own words, you couldn't marry them as you wouldn't respect them.

The point I made earlier is women like men who talk serious about life. You say "women" opposed my view yet I see only one woman mies. Women have enough guys who are not serious talking to them on the internet. When they find one who talks about life instead of partying, then they get happy.

Ehem, isn't that gilding the lily slightly? As I recall your account of things, she chickened out on coming to America.

You remember me saying that but why didn't you remember me saying I could have married her in Uzbekistan and lived there? Why didn't you remember me months later saying that she gained the courage to come to America and I contacted the embassy and found out her visa is still good but I didn't go through with it?

What do you guys want from me? You want me to get married and come back here and thump my chest and say I'm an expert like you are? I've never criticised an unmarried guy for giving marriage advice. If he's rightwith the advice, he's right. If he's wrong, he's wrong. Everybody here has been divorced at least once I'm sure. When you were single, does that make you automatically an idiot? If a guy is married, does it makes him right? If you don't think it's smart to talk serious issues before visiting a woman, just say it. If you think it's smart to jump on a plane and visit the first pretty woman you see in a photo, then say it.

Based on what Kevin has said, he is getting lots of communication from his lady. More than most men and women in this endeavor. That's a good thing. It's also good to talk more serious issues too. The more talk he does now, the less luck he has to rely on when meeting the woman.

I've communicated with thousands of RW and been on the phone with hundreds. Don't be a pervert but don't be one of the hundreds of nice, timid, and boring guys either. Talk about life. You guys want to get physical someday with the lady but you can't talk about it? :noidea:

[I/O]

I see only one woman mies.

Precisely.

[Doll]

ok, one more "woman's opinion -I do not see any red flags  

[GQBlues]

Well you see Kevin...in light of the recent surge of posts, this should give you a nice overview of things to come when you get involved in this venture. Can you now just imagined how things will be WHEN you actually meet your lady?

This experience really do a whack job in us men...    Are you sure you want this transformation?

[Lily]

Another woman's opinion - personally I see green flags only. Not a single red one.

The fact that she moved from a less advantageous area to the more advantageous one, speaks many good things about her. To me it says that she is courageous and decisive person, willing to do something about her well being. In my books, she should apply same approach to her loved ones.

The fact that she assisted in finding a place for you to live in St Pete tells me that she cares about you. It does not however mean that she is into you right now. She is just being a good hostess to you. IMHO, the only thing that should be paid attention to during a visit, is a mutual chemistry. There might be a risk that she might be rather a friend to you than a lover, and take a friendly behavior towards you early on. This IMHO may never change to love.

[BillyB]

The fact that she assisted in finding a place for you to live in St Pete tells me that she cares about you. It does not however mean that she is into you right now. She is just being a good hostess to you. IMHO, the only thing that should be paid attention to during a visit, is a mutual chemistry. There might be a risk that she might be rather a friend to you than a lover, and take a friendly behavior towards you early on. This IMHO may never change to love.

If a guy or woman were dating locally and had done it enough times, they would understand that things may never materialize to love. They may become friends or even lovers or part ways but chances are it will never end in marriage because one or both people will never develop feelings of love for each other. They can date each other, enjoy their time together and have fun without the serious questions coming out before the first date. They may learn they are different people after the first or tenth date.

With international relationships, things are more risky. I would ask some serious questions. I suspect a large number of men who go to the FSU, maybe more than 50%, of not even talking to their lady(s) before visiting her. They're basically visiting a stranger(s). Kevin is doing a much better job communicating with his lady more than most people here but as Lily mentions, she is only a friend now. I've talked to ladies and if meeting was on the agenda, I would tell them I'm not coming to see them as a friend and I need to know more. I would ask them about future children, what they think a man and woman's roles are in a marriage, and even their views on intimacy. I would ask them how they possibly see me in their life. If they are a little physically attracted to me or they have much differing views on life than I do, I do not visit them no matter how beautiful they look. I move on.

[mies]

I would tell them I'm not coming to see them as a friend and I need to know more. I would ask them about future children, what they think a man and woman's roles are in a marriage, and even their views on intimacy. I would ask them how they possibly see me in their life.

do you think friends do not discuss these topics?

If they are a little physically attracted to me or they have much differing views on life than I do, I do not visit them no matter how beautiful they look. I move on.

do you mean "physically attracted to your photo?"
Billy, you are rationalizing the things that are so much common sense that some people do not even think about them, while present is as a great wisdom and experience. It's like a guy writes to woman, woman responds "i think you are ugly and I'm not interested in you" and the guy after some good thinking decides not to visit her because she is not worth his effort. So he moves on to next woman, and she somewhat reluctantly responds, and he asks "do you think I am attractive?" and she replies "well..i guess you are OK" and he asks "so are you physically attracted to me?" and she diplomatically answers "i don't know, it's kinda early to ask these questions," so he finds third woman and this woman really wants to go to USA, or maybe go on vacation, so she tells him "you are soooo hot and handsome"... so he's happy and asks "so do you find me physically attractive" and she answers "oh yes!" and he goes on and on.. and since she's quite smart and manipulative - she easily gets all answers right on his long "quiz". so he comes and visits her, and they live happily until she gets what she wanted and uses the guy up.  

Billy, how you are going to distinguish between woman who is manipulative and smart and tells you what you want to hear and acts very open about "serious questions", from the woman who is genuine and is really into you? I am asking this seriously. How do you know which one is real?  

[Ade]

Billy, how you are going to distinguish between woman who is manipulative and smart and tells you what you want to hear and acts very open about "serious questions", from the woman who is genuine and is really into you? I am asking this seriously. How do you know which one is real?  

Didn't you know? He has manly man super powers of perception.

[Shadow]

Kevin all I can say further is that you seem to have the right approach.
You are going for an experience, while knowing there is a risk it might not turn in to a relationship. If it does not, do not try to fool yourself in to cultural differences.

When you see and feel signs that she is not in to you as marriage material, take her to a quiet place and have a serious talk. If you are right, after that you both will enjoy the meeting even more and she might even hook you up with someone.

If she will be in to you, there will be no need for talks. You will know it without any doubt.

Are you building up an appetite for salo, vodka and pickled vegetables yet ? 

[I/O]

you are rationalizing the things that are so much common sense that some people do not even think about them, while present is as a great wisdom and experience.

Bingo.

Mies: Did you ever watch the movie "Pretty Woman"? Remember Julie Roberts response when he presented the strawberries, "forget the seduction scene, I'm a sure thing"?

Unfortunately, whether they admit it or not, way too many men represent the ancient story of the "widows mite" when visiting the FSU areas. They do not invest great amounts of money but in percentage of personal wealth terms, often, I suspect it is huge and as a result of such they need (in their mind) to be certain before they fly out they will get sex value for their investment.

Billy: You've been around a bit and tout your ways with women which I have never particularly doubted until now. In the last few posts here and there, some of the subjects you insist should be discussed are areas that anyone who has any clue around the opposite sex will deduce in a heartbeat without any discussion whatsoever.  

[Daveman]

Bingo.

Mies: Did you ever watch the movie "Pretty Woman"? Remember Julie Roberts response when he presented the strawberries, "forget the seduction scene, I'm a sure thing"?

Unfortunately, whether they admit it or not, way too many many represent the ancient story of the "widows mite" when visiting the FSU areas. They do not invest great amounts of money but in percentage of personal wealth terms, often, I suspect it is huge and as a result of such they need (in their mind) to be certain before they fly out they will get sex value for their investment.

Billy: You've been around a bit and tout your ways with women which I have never particularly doubted until now. In the last few posts here and there, some of the subjects you insist should be discussed are areas that anyone who has any clue around the opposite sex will deduce in a heartbeat without any discussion whatsoever. 

 

Value for investment... what a hoot... if men actually took the time to do an actual cost/benefit analysis of relationships and marriage (in general, not pertaining solely to FSUW) then it would be unlikely any would marry!  I think "Love is blind" for a reason... it's god's trick on us...  :evil: