What I Learned...

[SMS60]

5)  If a man has even half a brain, your chance of being "scammed" is no worse than the USA – just use the web. SKYPE, etc.  PLEASE

If you are getting scammed by local women in the US of A........... You will be skinned alive in a long distance relationship.

[wicheese]

OK, I haven't posted in awhile, but I see nothing much has changed around here.

From my one trip to the Ukraine, this is what I think I learned about dating FSU women:

1)  FSU Women are the same as American Women (not a bad thing BTW), however

Not exactly the same, but similar enough that one should figure out that if they have problems dating AW, then they will have problems with FSUW.

2)  It is definitely a different pool of possible partners because of cultural, economic and standard of living factors.

Yes, much better chance to upgrade in all aspects with the exception of economics.

3)  As a man, you have MUCH better odds of dating/marrying a woman 10-20+ years younger than you.  No opinion here as to whether that's a good thing, just the facts...

One of the main reasons we get started in this process, after all, aweb and HRB put out pretty good propaganda...

4)  It's very expensive to do this.  Not a "little", but "VERY" expensive to manage this type of relationship - so plan accordingly.  In fact, forget this now if you don't have money.  I imagine this factor has changed over the past 10 years, but it is what it is now..

Especially true if you are one who can't be a "one week wonder", as there are return trips and if you are paying close attention you might realize you are with the wrong person and then you need to start over.  

5)  If a man has even half a brain, your chance of being "scammed" is no worse than the USA – just use the web. SKYPE, etc.  PLEASE

Yes, but I'm sure most of us have written a ghost in the past, it's part of the experience   .

5)  The Ukraine is a very nice country to visit - lots of history and lots of nightlife.  Very friendly people and always willing to help the poor American.

I would definitely agree, as Kyiv, Crimea, and western Ukraine far exceeded my expectations.  Too bad I'll probably not get back as it was a Moscow girl who caused me to stop my search.

6)  Anyone who found/married their FSU bride more than 5 years ago has no relevant knowledge.  Sorry, but the web has changed everything.

Can't comment, but I think those with a lot of experience still have a lot of great information to contribute.

7)  UW are NOT (no longer maybe?) homemakers - they are informed, very independent and know what they want out of life.  I got the sense that its the woman who manages the family - not the man (if there is a man).  Consider this STRONGLY if its something that you think is important to you.  But the lack of reliable men is what gives us the shot right?

True, but I would repeat something I was told recently.  "It's not a lack of men, but lack of men who are at their level."  

 Ukrainians have very limited options for entertainment.  The average American eats out what, 8-10 times a week I've read?  That's MORE than the average UW who doesn't live in Kiev or Odessa does in a year.  Remember that when you read the profiles – they write what they know about.

Probably true for average Ukrainians, but I have not dated many average FSUW and of those who I dated, they went out as often as any American (by going out I mean theatre, dinner, and concerts).

9)  It's a BIG DEAL for an FSU woman to leave her country and come to the US – not much different than you leaving the US or UK or whatever.

Yep, so if the women has no concerns at all, it should make you wonder a little.

10)  Finally, be careful what you ask for.  Since most of this process is “online” you can seemingly filter down to attributes that are important to you – and maybe you will find it (I did), but maybe that's not what you really wanted <sigh>.

Hence, why it's really important to understand what you need before you start the process.  Something that is pointed out in that one ebook from Elenas Models.


Spectris, thanks for sharing your list and I look forward to your trip report.

[Faux Pas]

The reason for the comment about the people that have found their brides 5 years ago aren’t relevant any longer is that the dating phase has dramatically changed due to technology.  Imagine they didn’t really have to deal with internet, text messaging, etc.  My point was intended to be that these women that you are writing too and calling are talking among themselves and very integrated into technology (at least in her city).  If you share your address, they Google Earth it, look up the company you work for on the web, learn about your city (good and bad), Google YOU, pretty all the same things an AW would do except they are much more intelligent (generalizing here of course).

 For instance my girlfriend has a prestigious job and knows literally hundreds of people in her city (the primary reason I didn’t meet her there in the first place btw) including several women that are pursuing this same avenue (Elenasmodels, etc.) – and they are serious and hopeful and really would like to find their white knight and all – it’s just they have many more tools to filter us now than in previous times.  Please don’t misunderstand me, none of this is bad – it just wasn’t possible until recently so technology is sort of leveling the playing field I guess I would say. In the past I would imagine you could write, talk and then meet someone without a lot of data and things like your age, size, profession, city weren’t automatically dismissed before you had a chance to actually meet and actually get to know each other.  I mean heck,  I’m extremely charming in person – but you have to be willing to talk to appreciate it! 

Spectris

Even 5 years ago, the technology was the same on both sides of the ocean. The only support to your logic is perhaps it isn't as easily or readily available to FSUW but, it was still available. As maybe you learned on your recent trip, many FSUW are very resourceful and they would find the technology when they wanted it. You really couldn't know what the deal was 5 years ago unless you were there, could you?

What's the problem with the level playing field? Did you not Google everything you could find out about your lady prior to even planning a trip? I did. No shame in that game. If your lady didn't try to find out everything about you, that would be cause for concern IMO

[Gator]

Every man is different and will see this venture differently.  It does not make him right or wrong, just different.


THE Ukraine or Ukraine?  Why THE Ohio State university?

[Jumper]

Thanks for sharing Spectris.
and sorry to hear how it ended up... as you "learned"
  it just goes with the territory and yes the distance and shorter times together tax the situation and generally
cause one side or the other either to jump ahead, or pull the plug ,a bit more quickly.




I see what you meant about  #6-

but as far as technology:
I met my ex  wife in 2001, after meeting we communicated often by email ,
 ICQ, MSN messenger or what have you.....
also she of course googled/ search engined  my name ,  my work ,and any other exploits,
knew where i lived and even the route I took to work..
She did not have a computer at home ,but had one at her work.
Easy enough to pass some time digging up a little info

The only real difference i see now technology wise , is that a few more FSU individuals might have a PC at home and Skype or  vid chat options might be a bit more prevalent.

 I also think the rosey glasses of "Santa Barbara" type hollywood myths may have come off a bit ,which is a good thing.



The bigger difference i see there now is the improvement in the economy over the last ten years.
Salaries are generally far better, and good or bad the credit system is taking hold somewhat.
in late 90's if you wanted a car it was cash. now its become more possible and reasonable to finance such things.Not sure if these  are the reasons , but I do see a lot more cars on the road  in the provincial cities..
 and also a lot more new construction and renovation.
 Granted the costs of living there has gone up quite a bit as well..for basics like food or the costs of a flat..
so it seems not much different than before *overall*.


As far as dating and the realities of long distance relatioships,
 the one thing of note to me is that I do think over a decade of foreigners going there,  has changed the mindset a bit ,and its often a negative one a man needs to overcome.
I'm not saying it has spoiled the well, but it is different than the warm welcome and novelty one might once have had.
I simply see a lot more foriegners there,  or rather people that have met one.
Going back ten years, apart from Kyiv or  Odessa, or a business that strickly dealt with import/ export,
 you would likely not have met any women who had ever seen a foreigner in their life.

In a provincial city back then you really could be viewed as  something like a circus attraction..
so I don't think its a bad thing that  this has changed, but it is a bit different.

The positves are it is easier to travel there ,no visa now (back then there was)
 and there are a few more flight options.
Travel within  the country seems a bit easier ,but maybe that is because of multiple trips.
The level of English in the general populace seems to have slightly increased as well.
(although I firmly believe that communicating is on the shoulders of the traveler , not the inhabitant,
it does seem slightly more likely to find a basic english speaker working at the ticket kiosk for the bus or trains or in a shop.Obviously this observation doesnt include Kyiv where they have generally  had  more western interaction for a number of years)
 



Good luck on your next venture! 

[mendeleyev]

This issue of the article the was dealt with several years back during the Leonid Kuchma administration. He served from 1994 to 2005 and it was during his first term that Ukraine's Верховна Рада (Verkhovna Rada or simply "Rada" is the term for Ukraine's parliament) issued a non-binding statement to help other governments and news organizations have uniformity in dealing with, and writing about, Ukraine and Ukrainian life.

Several changes came as a result, the most prominent being that diplomats and journalists ceased use of the incorrect phrase "the Republic of Ukraine" (constitutionally it's one word--Україна/Ukraine, dropped the article before the name Ukraine, and the uniform diplomatic transliteration of the capital city is (as Ecocks indicated) K-y-i-v.

As to Kyiv or Kiev, this debate will be around much longer than the issue about the article. Heck, even many Ukrainians translate it as Kiev, perhaps the biggest reason being that Russian was the dominant language for generations, and in English, KIEV as the correct transliteration has been around for about 1,000 years. Russian Киев or Ukrainian Київ will keep the transliteration debate alive for a long time. The four founders of the city, brothers Kyi, Shchek, Khoryv and their sister sister Lybid could perhaps no longer give a care...or maybe they're rolling over in their graves every time Chicken Kiev is uttered?  

If you are wondering where us journalist types (a demented bunch, I tell ya) go for guidance, here goes. The primary rule for speaking the name of a person/place/thing is codifed in the age-old NBC Book of Pronunciation which says that a name should be written or spoken in the same manner as locals use it. Whether it's Lima, Peru or Lima, Ohio; Beatrice, Italy or Beatrice, Nebraska--the locals get to decide the correct usage.

For writers, The New York Times Style Guide, Chicago Manual of Style, Associated Press Style Book, etal, uniformly do not allow journalists to use the article the in connection with Ukraine. International publications generally follow the MondoTimes Media directory (The Times of London, The Moscow Times, The Economist (London), and Reuters, etc) in disallowing a definite article to be connected to Ukraine. Most news organizations generally allow journalists to choose between Kiev or Kyiv, however.

Locally? Even the country's leading English language newspaper, Kyiv Post doesn't even use a definite article at the beginning of it's own name. Neither does the Kyiv Post use the to describe Ukraine. Its not just the absence of definite articles in the local languages because The Moscow Times uses the article in their newspaper's name, but disallows writers to use it when writing about the country of Ukraine.

Andrew Gregorovich writes on the Ukrainian info site www.infoukes.com the following: We may conclude then, that the use of the definite article in English before the name Ukraine is awkward, incorrect and superfluous. Writers who care about good style in their English grammar and the correctness of their language will always avoid the use of "the Ukraine" and use only the simpler and correct "Ukraine."

[mendeleyev]

The average American eats out what, 8-10 times a week I've read?  That's MORE than the average UW who doesn't live in Kiev or Odessa does in a year.  Remember that when you read the profiles – they write what they know about.

Often true, and a valid point on potential differences from East to West.

Now I've been married much longer than 5 years so perhaps I'm too old/experienced for the discussion, but without carving it into stone, generally speaking when it comes to eating out, Slavic and Western culture sometimes are at a 180 degree separation as one of the biggest honours one could receive is to be a guest for a meal at home. In the West we'd take someone "out" for a birthday, anniversary, etc, but generally in the East the best celebration would be a large family/friends gathering in a home.

A lot of this will continue to change however as disposable income and spending priorities change. Just as eating meat vs vegetables (royalty vs peasantry) changed as incomes rose in the West, this is changing now in the East as well. When we have the opportunity to spend time at our home in Moscow my MIL and wife take pride in serving elegant meat dishes alongside a bountiful display of traditional Russian salads, but at the dacha in summer they take an equal sort of pride in the garden and berries and enjoy the lifestyle of comfortably fed peasants.

[JohnDearGreen]

From my one trip to the Ukraine, this is what I think I learned about dating FSU women....I'm about to go back and try it a different way this time (you know, multiple dates per day, etc.) so we'll see what happens. 

You left out a few important items:
11) Only give serious consideration to ladies who speak your language
12) Eliminate any lady from consideration after you find two or more
    flaws (no matter how long the man's list of flaws might be).
13) After one date with a very attractive lady who does not speak
    your langurage, scratch off rule #11.
14) After two dates with that very attractive lady with no flaws who doesn't
    speak your language, reduce rule #12 down to one flaw.
15) Remember, There Ain't No 10's :
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZelxU5App8[/youtube]

[I/O]

The 5 year / technology thing is very misguided and the "The" thing matters. Suggest you get those things sorted before the next trip.

[Gator]

If you are wondering where us journalist types (a demented bunch, I tell ya) go for guidance, here goes.

A superb explanation.

Having spent some time in a few Press Clubs where liquor flows freely, I will testify to the adjective "demented."     Never have I met a group of professionals with a higher ratio of intelligence to income.

[Doll]

Every man is different and will see this venture differently.  It does not make him right or wrong, just different.


THE Ukraine or Ukraine?  Why THE Ohio State university?

I've already mentioned- Ukraine is the historical name of the country, The   Ohio State university contains "common" nouns ("state" and "university").
 

[Doll]

Please supply a list.

Concerts, shows, exhibitions,hiking, sport events, etc. All these- of quite a high quality.
Eating is not on the list 

[OlgaH]

Concerts, shows, exhibitions,hiking, sport events, etc. All these- of quite a high quality.
Eating is not on the list  

Yes, as I remember the "eating" has never been on the list of our entertainments. If we went to a restaurant  usually our choice was a restaurant with live music or shows. Plus everyday we had lunch at our favorite cafes, coffee houses or sushi bar. My working day very often started at a coffee house near my job, so I quietly enjoyed my latte and newspapers. I would never consider it as some kind of entertainment  

[Markus]

spectris,

Not many men get the opportunity to travel and learn what you have learned. Moreover, you are sharing your experiences with the family of friends on this board.
The experiences you have described are educational and will serve as a teaching tool for other men who view this board as an educational tool. It's the
experiences of men like you who are willing to describe their journey so other men and women can learn. After reading your post I came away with positive feelings on
the journey.

It's excellent to know about FSU women and American women being same. This statement is valid because you know in your mind that this is true. What is true is
what you believe. We gain confidence in our endeavor when we experience different situations, are able to compare those situations to where we live, and conclude
with a positive statement about what our future will experience within our belief system.

I must say that you have gained a vast amount of knowledge during your trip and your grasp of the process is exceedingly growing. You made the decision to go visit
and that decision could have been a lifetime visit. You will build on that visit and look toward your future, your future in finding a lovely FSUW for a wife.
Please keep us updated.

Mark

[HazyKnight]

Plus Karma to Mark. Good show (post) chap!

[Doll]

American and FSU women are NOT the same.

[GQBlues]

spectris,

Not many men get the opportunity to travel and learn what you have learned. Moreover, you are sharing your experiences with the family of friends on this board.
The experiences you have described are educational and will serve as a teaching tool for other men who view this board as an educational tool. It's the
experiences of men like you who are willing to describe their journey so other men and women can learn. After reading your post I came away with positive feelings on
the journey.

It's excellent to know about FSU women and American women being same. This statement is valid because you know in your mind that this is true. What is true is
what you believe. We gain confidence in our endeavor when we experience different situations, are able to compare those situations to where we live, and conclude
with a positive statement about what our future will experience within our belief system.

I must say that you have gained a vast amount of knowledge during your trip and your grasp of the process is exceedingly growing. You made the decision to go visit
and that decision could have been a lifetime visit. You will build on that visit and look toward your future, your future in finding a lovely FSUW for a wife.
Please keep us updated.

Mark

...in other words, what Markus is saying is "it's all downhill from here on in"... 

[I/O]

American and FSU women are NOT the same.

I agree.

[Boethius]

America, population wise, is a huge country.  Does an AW in rural Utah or Mississippi have the same views as a woman from New York City or San Francisco?

[Doll]

America, population wise, is a huge country.  Does an AW in rural Utah or Mississippi have the same views as a woman from New York City or San Francisco?

Depends on what we are talking about. They are both alike and different.

[Boethius]

I don't think they are necessarily alike.   A woman who believes in the Quiver Movement isn't likely to be similar, to say, Mary Meeker or Meg Whitman.

[Doll]

So?

[Boethius]

I don't think anyone can make sweeping generalizations, particularly in a nation as large and ethnically diverse as the U.S.

[Doll]

I don't think anyone can make sweeping generalizations, particularly in a nation as large and ethnically diverse as the U.S.

spectris does 

[Gator]

I don't think anyone can make sweeping generalizations, particularly in a nation as large and ethnically diverse as the U.S.

I agree, yet there are some similarities shared by the majority that makes Doll's statement correct.

Depends on what we are talking about. They are both alike and different.

For example, I would guess that almost all AW would question why a man would look for a wife in the FSU.