What I Learned...

[spectris]

OK, I haven't posted in awhile, but I see nothing much has changed around here.

From my one trip to the Ukraine, this is what I think I learned about dating FSU women:

1)  FSU Women are the same as American Women (not a bad thing BTW), however
2)  It is definitely a different pool of possible partners because of cultural, economic and standard of living factors.
3)  As a man, you have MUCH better odds of dating/marrying a woman 10-20+ years younger than you.  No opinion here as to whether that's a good thing, just the facts...
4)  It's very expensive to do this.  Not a "little", but "VERY" expensive to manage this type of relationship - so plan accordingly.  In fact, forget this now if you don't have money.  I imagine this factor has changed over the past 10 years, but it is what it is now..
5)  If a man has even half a brain, your chance of being "scammed" is no worse than the USA – just use the web. SKYPE, etc.  PLEASE
5)  The Ukraine is a very nice country to visit - lots of history and lots of nightlife.  Very friendly people and always willing to help the poor American.
6)  Anyone who found/married their FSU bride more than 5 years ago has no relevant knowledge.  Sorry, but the web has changed everything.
7)  UW are NOT (no longer maybe?) homemakers - they are informed, very independent and know what they want out of life.  I got the sense that its the woman who manages the family - not the man (if there is a man).  Consider this STRONGLY if its something that you think is important to you.  But the lack of reliable men is what gives us the shot right?
  Ukrainians have very limited options for entertainment.  The average American eats out what, 8-10 times a week I've read?  That's MORE than the average UW who doesn't live in Kiev or Odessa does in a year.  Remember that when you read the profiles – they write what they know about.
9)  It's a BIG DEAL for an FSU woman to leave her country and come to the US – not much different than you leaving the US or UK or whatever.
10)  Finally, be careful what you ask for.  Since most of this process is “online” you can seemingly filter down to attributes that are important to you – and maybe you will find it (I did), but maybe that's not what you really wanted <sigh>.


OK, enough rambling – I'm about to go back and try it a different way this time (you know, multiple dates per day, etc.) so we'll see what happens.  All I know for sure is that the women there are genuine, attractive (call me shallow – whatever) smarter than I am and really do want to meet you.

Guess I'll post a Trip Report next month 

[Kuna]

OK, I haven't posted in awhile, but I see nothing much has changed around here.

From my one trip to the Ukraine, this is what I think I learned about dating FSU women:

1)  FSU Women are the same as American Women (not a bad thing BTW), however
2)  It is definitely a different pool of possible partners because of cultural, economic and standard of living factors.
3)  As a man, you have MUCH better odds of dating/marrying a woman 10-20+ years younger than you.  No opinion here as to whether that's a good thing, just the facts...
4)  It's very expensive to do this.  Not a "little", but "VERY" expensive to manage this type of relationship - so plan accordingly.  In fact, forget this now if you don't have money.  I imagine this factor has changed over the past 10 years, but it is what it is now..
5)  If a man has even half a brain, your chance of being "scammed" is no worse than the USA – just use the web. SKYPE, etc.  PLEASE
5)  The Ukraine is a very nice country to visit - lots of history and lots of nightlife.  Very friendly people and always willing to help the poor American.
6)  Anyone who found/married their FSU bride more than 5 years ago has no relevant knowledge.  Sorry, but the web has changed everything.
7)  UW are NOT (no longer maybe?) homemakers - they are informed, very independent and know what they want out of life.  I got the sense that its the woman who manages the family - not the man (if there is a man).  Consider this STRONGLY if its something that you think is important to you.  But the lack of reliable men is what gives us the shot right?
  Ukrainians have very limited options for entertainment.  The average American eats out what, 8-10 times a week I've read?  That's MORE than the average UW who doesn't live in Kiev or Odessa does in a year.  Remember that when you read the profiles – they write what they know about.
9)  It's a BIG DEAL for an FSU woman to leave her country and come to the US – not much different than you leaving the US or UK or whatever.
10)  Finally, be careful what you ask for.  Since most of this process is “online” you can seemingly filter down to attributes that are important to you – and maybe you will find it (I did), but maybe that's not what you really wanted <sigh>.


OK, enough rambling – I'm about to go back and try it a different way this time (you know, multiple dates per day, etc.) so we'll see what happens.  All I know for sure is that the women there are genuine, attractive (call me shallow – whatever) smarter than I am and really do want to meet you.

Guess I'll post a Trip Report next month 

Godo luck in your continued search.

I disagree with several of your comment above but but figure from your post that you're here to teach not learn.

It's really not "that hard" you know???

Anyway,  good luck.

Kuna

[Nat]

Wise post, spectris, you obviously can observe and analyse. However, there is one point which isn't quite accurate:

  Ukrainians have very limited options for entertainment.  The average American eats out what, 8-10 times a week I've read?  That's MORE than the average UW who doesn't live in Kiev or Odessa does in a year.  Remember that when you read the profiles – they write what they know about.

Well, it's not about very limited options for entertainment. It's about absolutely different mentality. Americans eat out to have fun. We eat out when we're hungry and don't feel like cooking. Eating out itself  isn't considered to be an entertainment here. Disco club/night club, cinema, bowling, walking, picnics and shashlik, parties at friends' places are the kinds of entertainment which are appreciated here.

[Doll]

Ukrainians have very limited options for entertainment.  The average American eats out what, 8-10 times a week I've read?  That's MORE than the average UW who doesn't live in Kiev or Odessa does in a year.  Remember that when you read the profiles – they write what they know about.

I don't agree. Since when "entertainment" is "eating out"?
The FSU people has times more options for entertainment.

[Chelseaboy]

Good,interesting post Spectris,although i'd agree with the ladies about entertainment.I'm English,so maybe our mentality is nearer the Ukrainian mentality on that particular point.

[Faux Pas]

OK, I haven't posted in awhile, but I see nothing much has changed around here.

From my one trip to the Ukraine, this is what I think I learned about dating FSU women:

1)  FSU Women are the same as American Women (not a bad thing BTW), however

This has been my contention all along for those that listen to it. The perceived difference IMO is just a mask of cultural and language differences. People are people. BTW, you didn't learn that it's not "The Ukraine"?
 

2)  It is definitely a different pool of possible partners because of cultural, economic and standard of living factors.

Agreed. But, boatloads of cash will open up your dating pool in the US too

3)  As a man, you have MUCH better odds of dating/marrying a woman 10-20+ years younger than you.  No opinion here as to whether that's a good thing, just the facts...

If that is what you seek this is true. Also, see previous response.

4)  It's very expensive to do this.  Not a "little", but "VERY" expensive to manage this type of relationship - so plan accordingly.  In fact, forget this now if you don't have money.  I imagine this factor has changed over the past 10 years, but it is what it is now..

Disagree. Many have done this on the cheap and found wonderful women. Although FP doesn't recommend it.

5)  If a man has even half a brain, your chance of being "scammed" is no worse than the USA – just use the web. SKYPE, etc.  PLEASE

Agree. The rub here is "half a brain" (that thinks freely with the big brain, instead of the small one  )

5)  The Ukraine is a very nice country to visit - lots of history and lots of nightlife.  Very friendly people and always willing to help the poor American.

Please again with "The" Ukraine

6)  Anyone who found/married their FSU bride more than 5 years ago has no relevant knowledge.  Sorry, but the web has changed everything.

Disagree. You have only made one trip. Doesn't make you an expert. Most who have found a wife, "because" they found a wife continue to return and note the differences.

7)  UW are NOT (no longer maybe?) homemakers - they are informed, very independent and know what they want out of life.  I got the sense that its the woman who manages the family - not the man (if there is a man).  Consider this STRONGLY if its something that you think is important to you.  But the lack of reliable men is what gives us the shot right?

Most women the world over always have been

Guess I'll post a Trip Report next month

Look forward to reading it!

[Steamer]

 

BTW, you didn't learn that it's not "The Ukraine"?
 

Then it must also be incorrect to say "The USA".

[Nat]

Then it must also be incorrect to say "The USA".

Article "the" is used with countries whose names are in plural (The United States, the Netherlands), republics, kingdoms, groups of islands. Other countries don't require any article. So yes, your country is spelled with the article, ours isn't, although I can't get what the whole fuss is about anyway.

[ECOCKS]

1)  Women are women. The environmental factors you mention are variables which have shaped their perspective on the world. For instance, lots of pent-up demand for material things - clothing, cars, homes, etc.

2)  There is also something else which has affected the pool available to you which came FROM you. You're exotic. You'll see it in reverse when you come home with a gal. It is always easier for the exceptional person or event who is out of normal bounds and expectations to be noticed and remembered. When you go over there they remember you as "that foreign guy". Last night we were at a party of all new people and I will be easily remembered as that guy with the Russian wife and she will be remembered as the Russian gal who is opening a BBQ pit with her husband. So yes, one reason guys go there is that our dating opportunities expand enormously.

3)  True with regard to meeting them, dating and beginning a relationship. Sustaining it over a lifetime is a different matter and no different than the foolish ones who try it here.

4)  As FP says, this one is not necessarily true. Your definition of "Very" expensive may not fit another person's. I know guys who have made over 10 trips and still have not found the right woman yet. All you can really say is that the immigration fees are identifiable and travel/vacation/trip costs are going to vary based on your search success. I doubt that figure has changed much except insofar as inflation and normal costs increase.  
 
5)  This is true throughout life. Ask the Madoff investors and the people who get a deal on having their gutters cleaned or roofs repaired. The term gold-digger was invented long before the Green Card Girl came into being. Supply and demand are the rules in effect here and wise men and women will keep this in mind and plan accordingly.
 
5)  Yes, Ukraine is a very nice country to visit and can even be enjoyable to live in if your situation is right. People are people and while some are friendly, some are more than happy to triple charge you for cab fare, drop that cash-filled wallet in front of you, set you up with their sister for a good time, bait and switch an apartment on you and so on.    

6)  People are different. Your statement is way too sweeping and generalized. You have no idea how current the person has stayed due to forum information, other friends going over, family members dating WM or so on.  

7)  Some guys still buy into the myths perpetrated by agencies and other desperate guys. Women are women and some guys want strong ones who can become lawyers, accountants, doctors whatever; others want women who shop all day and are knockouts when they trot them out on the party-social circuit. You can find a demure little stay at home princess to rule your castle if you look in the right places.

 Their list isn't as long or as varied as we are used to in our lives that is true.        

9)  Certainly. It is a bigger deal than you leaving for several reasons. You probably have deeper financial resources which gives you more options, you speak a language which is more widely spoken than her easing communications, you have fewer travel restrictions and are probably more used to travel than she is, your horizons are wider than most FSU citizens although her dreams may be unimaginable to you, the list is long.

10)  Again there are those who do this "mostly online" as you say and delude themselves into believing that they ave a real relationship. They will pay a price over time. Everyone should carefully consider long and hard what they wish for and be certain they are ready to cope with the changes which will occur in their lives when they get them.

I am a believer in WMVM over WOVO so I wish you luck.

[ECOCKS]

Article "the" is used with countries whose names are in plural (The United States, the Netherlands), republics, kingdoms, groups of islands. Other countries don't require any article. So yes, your country is spelled with the article, ours isn't, although I can't get what the whole fuss is about anyway.

FP is correct on the referring to the country of Ukraine. Nat does well with a quick explanation of the rule. Not really a big deal anymore than if you went around saying "I am from the San Fransisco,"  or "I was driving down the Elm Street," all the time. Some people still say "ain't" all the time too.

[Faux Pas]

Then it must also be incorrect to say "The USA".

I'm not a word Nazi or anal over proper or improper pronunciation and usage but, it has been noted numerous times throughout this  forum the proper usage and some, apparently not Nat but, some Ukrainians take umbrage with the improper usage. I can see their point which, is the only reason I raise the point.  

[Steamer]

Article "the" is used with countries whose names are in plural (The United States, the Netherlands), republics, kingdoms, groups of islands. Other countries don't require any article. So yes, your country is spelled with the article, ours isn't, although I can't get what the whole fuss is about anyway.

I understand now. It just seems that "The Ukraine" rolls off the tongue nicer.

[Faux Pas]

I understand now. It just seems that "The Ukraine" rolls off the tongue nicer.

There's been numerous discussions about this and if I were guessing where this pronunciation came from, I'd guess from Ukrainians themselves. It is quite common for FSU people to use "the" improperly for many things but, they have an excuse. English is not their native tongue. 

[I/O]

Anyone who found/married their FSU bride more than 5 years ago has no relevant knowledge.

Please explain?

[Nat]

There's been numerous discussions about this and if I were guessing where this pronunciation came from, I'd guess from Ukrainians themselves. It is quite common for FSU people to use "the" improperly for many things but, they have an excuse. English is not their native tongue. 

Not exactly Ukraine used to be "The Ukraine" in old soviet course books, because it used to be a republic in USSR. Now, as it is an independent state (so far), the article is removed and it's spelled like Ukraine. However, I can't even imagine a person who can take umbrage with the usage of "the", because for an average non-native speaker it makes no difference in meaning Oh, but we seem to have completely hijacked the original topic

[felix8787]

OK, I haven't posted in awhile, but I see nothing much has changed around here.

From my one trip to the Ukraine, this is what I think I learned about dating FSU women:

1)  FSU Women are the same as American Women (not a bad thing BTW), however
2)  It is definitely a different pool of possible partners because of cultural, economic and standard of living factors.
3)  As a man, you have MUCH better odds of dating/marrying a woman 10-20+ years younger than you.  No opinion here as to whether that's a good thing, just the facts...
4)  It's very expensive to do this.  Not a "little", but "VERY" expensive to manage this type of relationship - so plan accordingly.  In fact, forget this now if you don't have money.  I imagine this factor has changed over the past 10 years, but it is what it is now..
5)  If a man has even half a brain, your chance of being "scammed" is no worse than the USA – just use the web. SKYPE, etc.  PLEASE
5)  The Ukraine is a very nice country to visit - lots of history and lots of nightlife.  Very friendly people and always willing to help the poor American.
6)  Anyone who found/married their FSU bride more than 5 years ago has no relevant knowledge.  Sorry, but the web has changed everything.
7)  UW are NOT (no longer maybe?) homemakers - they are informed, very independent and know what they want out of life.  I got the sense that its the woman who manages the family - not the man (if there is a man).  Consider this STRONGLY if its something that you think is important to you.  But the lack of reliable men is what gives us the shot right?
  Ukrainians have very limited options for entertainment.  The average American eats out what, 8-10 times a week I've read?  That's MORE than the average UW who doesn't live in Kiev or Odessa does in a year.  Remember that when you read the profiles – they write what they know about.
9)  It's a BIG DEAL for an FSU woman to leave her country and come to the US – not much different than you leaving the US or UK or whatever.
10)  Finally, be careful what you ask for.  Since most of this process is “online” you can seemingly filter down to attributes that are important to you – and maybe you will find it (I did), but maybe that's not what you really wanted <sigh>.


OK, enough rambling – I'm about to go back and try it a different way this time (you know, multiple dates per day, etc.) so we'll see what happens.  All I know for sure is that the women there are genuine, attractive (call me shallow – whatever) smarter than I am and really do want to meet you.

Guess I'll post a Trip Report next month 

I take it as this is the gospel from your one trip?

[Jumper]

Nat- great explanation.

Spectis-
 From your post it seems your trip/relationship  ultimately did not  pan out for whatever reasons ...
Sorry to hear.
It's  common ,the same as local dating ..
 Glad you are taking another shot at it.


I'd certainly agree with most of your list...


Number 6 being the exception:
 i got married over many years ago ..then divorced.
At that time we communicated by email, ICQ , what have you.
Traveled and met many times,either in another country ,or  rented a flat in her city for some trips

Returned to Ukraine through out the marriage  off and on..
and now was back in Ukraine.
I have been there recently ,and I have seen some changes..

but I am curious what you think specifically would be outdated to someone who hasn't been there in 5 years?

[ECOCKS]

Not exactly Ukraine used to be "The Ukraine" in old soviet course books, because it used to be a republic in USSR. Now, as it is an independent state (so far), the article is removed and it's spelled like Ukraine. However, I can't even imagine a person who can take umbrage with the usage of "the", because for an average non-native speaker it makes no difference in meaning Oh, but we seem to have completely hijacked the original topic

Sigh...more than you probably want to know.

Nat gave you only part of the rule although it was the part that pertained directly to your usage. The rest of the rule involves referring to regions which lack standing as nations (although there are a couple of exceptions due to usage and history).

You do use "the" when referring to geographic landforms or subdivisions of larger entities even if they involve proper nouns/names. This is why it flows off your tongue naturally since 30 years ago the Ukraine often referred to a region of the Soviet Union and centuries ago, when Ukraine was variously part of Hungary, Poland, Russia and a few other empires it became normal to refer to it as a region rather than a country. Most men here grew up in an era when books and newspapers used the phrase "the Ukraine". For example:

"The German army advanced into the Ukraine to engage Red Army elements at Kiev." (Note: Also the reason many continue to use the old spelling of the city name.)

"I grew up in the South."

"She drove into the mountains for the weekend."

"We are going to the Rockies (Adirondacks, Smokies, Appalachians, whatever) for vacation this year."

"Why don't we go to the beach and have a bonfire?"

A notable exception which will come up is Crimea. Since the Crimean War it has been accepted to refer to Crimea without "the".  

[Handycam72]

Sigh...more than you probably want to know.

Nat gave you only part of the rule although it was the part that pertained directly to your usage. The rest of the rule involves referring to regions which lack standing as nations (although there are a couple of exceptions due to usage and history).

You do use "the" when referring to geographic landforms or subdivisions of larger entities even if they involve proper nouns/names. This is why it flows off your tongue naturally since 30 years ago the Ukraine often referred to a region of the Soviet Union and centuries ago, when Ukraine was variously part of Hungary, Poland, Russia and a few other empires it became normal to refer to it as a region rather than a country. Most men here grew up in an era when books and newspapers used the phrase "the Ukraine". For example:

"The German army advanced into the Ukraine to engage Red Army elements at Kiev." (Note: Also the reason many continue to use the old spelling of the city name.)

"I grew up in the South."

"She drove into the mountains for the weekend."

"We are going to the Rockies (Adirondacks, Smokies, Appalachians, whatever) for vacation this year."

"Why don't we go to the beach and have a bonfire?"

A notable exception which will come up is Crimea. Since the Crimean War it has been accepted to refer to Crimea without "the".  

Is it really that important.............I mean, who actually gives a damn. What has the word "The" and how it is used, got to do with this topic 

Spectris
Interesting points you made, but like others, I am curious as to whats so special about 5 years ago.

[HazyKnight]

Speaking frankly here...

This post/thread was very easy to read, even though most of you chose to get off topic into an English/article debate. Thank God you fellers kept it short (keeps fingers crossed from this point on).

Spectris!!! Where did you go? For how long? I'm guessing it was WOVO from how I'm interpreting your statements. I did WOVO too the first time and it sucked!!! Going to Ukraine for the first time (second trip to a FSU country though) in a couple of months or less... Any more suggestions???

Thanks!
HK

[spectris]

When I was in The U...., oh wait, I mean when I was in Ukraine I spent 4 days in Kiev and then 4 days in her home city in her apartment w/ the mom and son. a few hours away.  I'm not disclosing the city for personal reasons, but I imagine it to be typical of most industrial 200k sized cities in Ukraine.

I had already met me WOVO on two occasions outside of her country so it was not a random meeting in her country it was just time to try and progress our relationship by meeting her family and getting a sense of her background/roots, whatever.  I REALLY grew to care about this woman as she did me (again, amazingly enough I found EXACTLY what I was looking for in a woman regardless of country - you know the proverbial "needle in the haystack").

However, I was also reminded that being with a woman on vacation is not the same as living with her - not even close.  Anyway, long story short, as awesome, intelligent, and beautiful as she was/is - that "intangible" thing seemed to be missing (at least for me and I've learned to trust my instincts about this finally) and that's a just a deal breaker.  And because of the distance, for me at least, there is just no way to “slow down” and make certain to see if I might have been wrong – it’s just too inconvenient and potentially even more hurtful for her.   Because of how close and serious we had become over our 9 months of communicating and meeting for a couple of weeks there really wasn't any option except to end it.  I have to be honest, I will always feel badly about this as she really is an amazing woman.  I see now I tried too hard, too quickly and really should have gone to see her in her home on the second trip. 

The reason for the comment about the people that have found their brides 5 years ago aren’t relevant any longer is that the dating phase has dramatically changed due to technology.  Imagine they didn’t really have to deal with internet, text messaging, etc.  My point was intended to be that these women that you are writing too and calling are talking among themselves and very integrated into technology (at least in her city).  If you share your address, they Google Earth it, look up the company you work for on the web, learn about your city (good and bad), Google YOU, pretty all the same things an AW would do except they are much more intelligent (generalizing here of course).

 For instance my girlfriend has a prestigious job and knows literally hundreds of people in her city (the primary reason I didn’t meet her there in the first place btw) including several women that are pursuing this same avenue (Elenasmodels, etc.) – and they are serious and hopeful and really would like to find their white knight and all – it’s just they have many more tools to filter us now than in previous times.  Please don’t misunderstand me, none of this is bad – it just wasn’t possible until recently so technology is sort of leveling the playing field I guess I would say.  In the past I would imagine you could write, talk and then meet someone without a lot of data and things like your age, size, profession, city weren’t automatically dismissed before you had a chance to actually meet and actually get to know each other.  I mean heck,  I’m extremely charming in person – but you have to be willing to talk to appreciate it! 

Totally off the subject, she also has known of women who work in the “writing centers” in Kiev that I would compare to a call center in the US, except they write those letters back to the unsuspecting males paying the big bucks for them.  She didn’t know much about it though – just that it was a job option for women who language skills.  She thought the whole thing was reprehensible or whatever a stronger word would be.  In her opinion, any site that will not let you trade personal email addresses and phone numbers is a scam. 

And again, the whole subject here is just my 1 experience so far with The, I mean with Ukraine.  It’s not a primer for anyone contemplating or doing this.  After my next trip I’ll share that experience as well.  That’s what this board is supposed to be for right?  Nah, it’s for controversy (I like that though too – part of my charm and all).

[Doll]

Then it must also be incorrect to say "The USA".

The names of the countries  that contain common nouns (like "republic", "state", "federation", etc.) have the article "the" unlike the historical names - Germany, America or Russia.
But- The Unites States, The United Kingdom or The Republic of Cuba

[ECOCKS]

Good that you are trying to synthesize and learn.

Now, when you write K-Y-I-V an......

[Manny]

The reason for the comment about the people that have found their brides 5 years ago aren’t relevant any longer is that the dating phase has dramatically changed due to technology.  Imagine they didn’t really have to deal with internet, text messaging, etc. 

I cant speak for Ukraine but I can tell you women had both internet and SMS in Russia five years ago. As they did in Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia.......

SMS was more popular in Europe before it really caught on in the US I gather.

In fact, Skype was invented in Estonia.

Most of your points are OK, but your five year thing is way off base. Its a rookie mistake though as you have only been there for eight days. One visit and some Googling does not an expert make. Some of the guys here have spent months there, lived there or visited many dozens of times to many different places. Many people here speak the language which takes you into another realm of understanding altogether.

[SMS60]

The FSU people has times more options for entertainment.

Please supply a list.