What has changed?

[chivo]

There was a thread which one poster talked about being married over 5 years and not having relevant knowledge about what is going on now in the FSU with intercultural unions, specifically FSUW and western men.

Now I'm not one who believes that a marriage of over 5 years is a quantifier for being out of the loop, but there have been three things that have definitely changed the landscape IMO:

1) Home internet accessibility has quadrupled since 2009
2) Travel outside of the FSU has also grown considerably. While I don't have or can't provide any stats, I can only go by what I've seen with the many people I deal with here to make a sweeping conclusion. I know of many who have been all over Europe and the Americas who 2 years ago simply hadn't, much less 5 years ago.
3) While the level of English still has a ways to go, it has moved up considerably in the last 5 years.

If you take into account what these three things have done to change the mindset of the women with regard to the amount of available information that is now at their fingertips, their ability to communicate in another language, as well as what they have seen firsthand then you can see how the playing field has shifted and that anyone who considers coming this way for love needs to adjust accordingly. I've noticed a change in the mindset over the last few years and was talking to my friend Andrei here about just this thing the other day. He agrees that he's also noticed a change in the attitude of the women.

Whether this is good or bad is purely subjective. Personally I (American) like it. Andrei (Russian) doesn't. Will you? Better yet, will you adjust as the times have changed?

To the married men keep in mind I mean dealing with the women for a relationship and not coming on vacation and have your family/women hand hold the situation.

[JohnDearGreen]

There was a thread which one poster talked about being married over 5 years and not having relevant knowledge about what is going on now in the FSU with intercultural unions, specifically FSUW and western men.
Now I'm not one who believes that a marriage of over 5 years is a quantifier for being out of the loop, but there have been three things that have definitely changed the landscape IMO:

1) Home internet accessibility has quadrupled since 2009

Item 1 makes things easier now, not more difficult.  In the past the 1st good look at a lady was in person, or in a 30 minute meeting at an agency, a very inefficient (and expensive) means of elimination to find a good match.  The process of elimination now more efficiently begins via skype or many more photo exchanges than in the past when ladies would frequently only have a couple of outdated photos to give you.

[I/O]

This is always an interesting one and upon my return from Russia in 2009 (the first trip back as a married man) I sounded a warning regarding changes and was howled down (or there were some attempts to do so) by a few who "knew" how it would be to go back and do it all again or to start now.

I am not prepared to speculatively note specifics but in general I suggest economics or economic opportunity is the broad change I've noticed over the years.

As far as it being the "internet" or travel or other exposure, maybe but....................Mrs I/O is from the Boonies (Omsk Southern Siberia), at 17 (1999) she had home internet (albeit snailish) and a good PC. She admits she was one of very few in her first Uni years who had home internet and a decent PC but none the less she had it. Her family wasn't/isn't poor but they are certainly not rich either. MIL (and a few times FIL also) had international holidays, Egypt, France, Korea, Germany and so forth. They always (as long as Mrs can remember) had a car and at times two. Bla bla, the more things change the more they stay the same.

What I have seen is a far healthier circumspection amongst the singles (Natasha average) to the westerner but a preparedness to engage in dialogue on more even terms. I sensed an air of confidence, self worth and pride which was marked, at least in part, by the absence of the old "but this is Russia, it is better where you are". The quality single Russian man seeker is no easy quarry these days and honestly, at the level I might have been shooting, never was. Dating is a piece of cake in Russia, simply ask and you have a date for the most part but it doesn't mean it'll go anywhere and if you are simply going at it on a numbers basis, it'll be a long and expensive road to marriage IMO. I never went to Russia looking for a wife but was always open to female company and found a very fertile social scene as it were. Someone once said, the best singles bar in the world but it'll cost about $3K to walk in the door and the comment isn't far wide of the mark, even now.

OTOH, having had 5 years and some pass since Mrs I/O and I first hooked up, I reject that experience (or anyone elses) as being irrelevant and...........this is no last grasp at involvement as honestly, I don't care. What I have access to now is in depth conversations with attractive, educated Russian women (and men folk) on a much wider array if issues than were possible in the days I was single. Perhaps I, to the extent a foreigner can, have gotten "inside". To sit and talk with an attractive young Russian woman (or group thereof) whos pants one is NOT considering the possibility of removing within the very near future provides the opportunity for some of the most interesting insights. Add to that, chatting with menfolk over a beer (or cognac) on even and accepted terms provides even further insights. Arrogant though it sounds, some of the comments I see written on the various fora and listen to from the single folk considering this route do make me cringe (and at times smile). IMO there is much to gain (before starting out) from the married guys, particularly those who visit there wifes home turf from time to time. Notwithstanding, each has the right to map his own route and should, so if he walks into a few brick walls which could have been avoided along the way, so be it.

[chivo]

Item 1 makes things easier now, not more difficult.  In the past the 1st good look at a lady was in person, or in a 30 minute meeting at an agency, a very inefficient (and expensive) means of elimination to find a good match.  The process of elimination now more efficiently begins via skype or many more photo exchanges than in the past when ladies would frequently only have a couple of outdated photos to give you.

I agree to a point because it can go both ways.

It's kind of a paradox because while it's easier for you to communicate, it is also easier for others to do the same creating more competition and easier access for the women to choose. You also have a woman who also has a better idea of what to expect, a more sophisticated street smart woman. One who has seen and experienced things first hand.

Factor in more relaxed visa restrictions, better language skills, and men willing to flip the bill for a visit, you can see how the game has changed in various ways.

It will always come down to whomever gets on the plane after it gets sorted. Thing is, now it could be her getting on the plane, and not just to see you.

[I/O]

Thing is, now it could be her getting on the plane

As Mrs I/O did.

[chivo]

What I have seen is a far healthier circumspection amongst the singles (Natasha average) to the westerner but a preparedness to engage in dialogue on more even terms. I sensed an air of confidence, self worth and pride which was marked, at least in part, by the absence of the old "but this is Russia, it is better where you are".

I agree with this and it goes to the shift in "mindset". Don't you think this might be part and parcel because of first hand exposure from the internet, travel and a better grasp of a common language even though economics is the driving force that allows for more knowledge, more freedom of choice? Word travels fast.

The quality single Russian man seeker is no easy quarry these days and honestly, at the level I might have been shooting, never was. Dating is a piece of cake in Russia, simply ask and you have a date for the most part but it doesn't mean it'll go anywhere and if you are simply going at it on a numbers basis, it'll be a long and expensive road to marriage IMO. I never went to Russia looking for a wife but was always open to female company and found a very fertile social scene as it were. Someone once said, the best singles bar in the world but it'll cost about $3K to walk in the door and the comment isn't far wide of the mark, even now.

If you’re looking for a wife, the singles bar approach to Russia will be expensive indeed. Some things never change.

The social scene you speak about is alive and well for sure, that also hasn’t changed.  I’ve also thought one of differences in that scene from AW if you will, is the approachability of the RW as you have realized. My theory is the RW thinks “prove to me you’re a fool” and let me act accordingly, while the AW mindset is more of ‘prove to me you aren’t a fool’. At least for me, I find the former to be much more forgiving. At first anyway

OTOH, having had 5 years and some pass since Mrs I/O and I first hooked up, I reject that experience (or anyone elses) as being irrelevant and...........this is no last grasp at involvement as honestly, I don't care. What I have access to now is in depth conversations with attractive, educated Russian women (and men folk) on a much wider array if issues than were possible in the days I was single. Perhaps I, to the extent a foreigner can, have gotten "inside". To sit and talk with an attractive young Russian woman (or group thereof) whos pants one is NOT considering the possibility of removing within the very near future provides the opportunity for some of the most interesting insights. Add to that, chatting with menfolk over a beer (or cognac) on even and accepted terms provides even further insights. Arrogant though it sounds, some of the comments I see written on the various fora and listen to from the single folk considering this route do make me cringe (and at times smile). IMO there is much to gain (before starting out) from the married guys, particularly those who visit there wifes how turf from time to time. Notwithstanding, each has the right to map his own route and should, so if he walks into a few brick walls which could have been avoided along the way, so be it.

I think married men have a great deal to offer. Especially as I mentioned (and it seems in your case) the ones that don’t have their hand held in “foreign” surroundings, and can work their collective way inside the circle of their respective family.

This is a rare breed for sure, and unfortunately, one who has much to offer and in many cases, takes more abuse that is warranted.

[chivo]

As Mrs I/O did.

The Mrs seems to be a "pioneer" by having access to what so many more now finally have exposure to.

Makes for a good example to compare the exposure to both sides (meaning RW looking and western men looking). Today the numbers are certainly different and the playing field has certainly shifted IMO.

To the men who succeed they won't worry about the competition, but you can see this is also a rare breed.

[Lily]

 you can see how the playing field has shifted and that anyone who considers coming this way for love needs to adjust accordingly. I've noticed a change in the mindset over the last few years and was talking to my friend Andrei here about just this thing the other day. He agrees that he's also noticed a change in the attitude of the women.
 

What would, in Andrei's opinion, be the attitude of the women now?

  I’ve also thought one of differences in that scene from AW if you will, is the approachability of the RW as you have realized. My theory is the RW thinks “prove to me you’re a fool” and let me act accordingly, while the AW mindset is more of ‘prove to me you aren’t a fool’. 

I am not getting it. How could a woman think something like, 'prove to me you are a fool'?? may be you wanted to say something like, 'prove to me that I am a fool'? that would mean, prove to me that you are stronger and smarter than myself? that would make sense to me.

[Gator]

Chivo,

Good post.  Each of the three changes you listed reflect an improved economy.

Please explain the "change in mindset."  I suffered a concussion last week and am comprehending only direct.  The mindset change I noticed is more restrictive criteria for quality of man (age, etc.).  A smaller percentage of quality RW (now 5 years older) are responding enthusiastically to my intro emails vs. 5 years ago.   Yet, there are still some real jewels available.  

Personally, I prefer the new, more selective RW because it eliminates quickly those with lukewarm interest.  Such RW may have feigned interest or reacted positively under the perception that she needs a good man, any good man, and good men are rare.

Has the RW response to your "advances/flirtations"   changed?

[JR]

What has changed?


Economy.

[I/O]

The Mrs seems to be a "pioneer" by having access to what so many more now finally have exposure to.

I am not convinced and this was in part, my point. I defer to your local knowlege as much more relevant than mine but would add that during early travel (2003 onwards), I never met anyone without home internet.

[JohnDearGreen]

...but would add that during early travel (2003 onwards), I never met anyone without home internet.

The lady in south Moscow I rented an apartment from in 2001 had home internet.  The USRobotics 9.6 modem she had cost her around $500 at that time.  Home computers were high priced then also.

DSL broadband became common in the 2004-2006 time frame allowing for decent webcam sessions.  In 2001 some of the agencies had a webcam setup, but it was slow and choppy.   One had a setup at a local restaurant where you could buy dinner for the lady and watch her dine over the webcam.

[I/O]

I am not getting it.

Lily: The suggestion is RW will adopt a "presumption of innocence" (and give the guy a chance without prejudice) whereas the AW will adopt a "presumption of guilt" position until he can prove otherwise.

[Gator]

Lily: The suggestion is RW will adopt a "presumption of innocence" (and give the guy a chance without prejudice) whereas the AW will adopt a "presumption of guilt" position until he can prove otherwise.

This might apply in the beginning.  Many AW feel that they do not need a man, while RW seek a man.   Yet, I found Russian people (not just RW) to be very skeptical in general.  Exceptions exist.  I assume the skeptic attitude is a product of their history.  It is manifested in trusting only family and close friends.

[Lily]

Lily: The suggestion is RW will adopt a "presumption of innocence" (and give the guy a chance without prejudice) whereas the AW will adopt a "presumption of guilt" position until he can prove otherwise.

But this is against common sense. The Western law and order proclaims that no one is guilty unless proven otherwise. Assume that WW are reasonable creatures, why would they want to adopt a completely unreasonable, silly and alien approach? Are they, with all their education and smarts, not able to tell a worthy man from unworthy one?

Many AW feel that they do not need a man, while RW seek a man.   

Can you explain me what is a difference between 'wanting a man' and 'needing a man'?
In my Russian books, even if you want something really badly, it wouldn't mean that you need it. It may be an addiction, which is no good.
Would the difference be about her survival, or wishing to improve the quality of her life?
Obviously, in the West no one needs a significant one in order to survive. The social system, the taxpayers money that are distributed to those in temporary need, will not let a lonely person to go down. Western system offers opportunities, while a Russian could only count on his family and friends when things go south.

[chivo]

What would, in Andrei's opinion, be the attitude of the women now?

Good question. I think he's a little jaded. I'll explain this as I go from post to post.

Andrei though is typical of Russian guys I talk to who are around 40, pretty well off financially, wanting to settle down and are still looking for that elusive someone who will cook, clean their shorts, be a whore in the bedroom, oh and look like a young Elle McPherson (or fill in the blank with your favorite supermodel)

I argue with him a lot about this.

[chivo]

Chivo,

Good post.  Each of the three changes you listed reflect an improved economy.

It does, but the kicker is that much of this has happened over the last 2 years when the economy went south. The crisis hit Russia just like many other places. I'll admit there was a boom from 2000-2008, but in the last 2 years I have seen many people lose their jobs, companies with 50-100 employees cease to exist (this in Moscow), cities of 100-200K dependant on one natural resourse literally shut down, companies that still operated stop paying their employees, etc. Yes, the economy changed, but over the last 2 years, not for the better.

After Russia invaded Georgia people really got nervous here thinking it was 1991 all over again. Couple that with the exit of a boatload of foreign capital and the thinking was that "we are back at square one". I know many very smart people who were panicking. Fortunately oil settled in above $50 (from a low of somewhere in the $30 range IIRC) at the time to ease some of the worry.

Please explain the "change in mindset."  I suffered a concussion last week and am comprehending only direct.  The mindset change I noticed is more restrictive criteria for quality of man (age, etc.).  A smaller percentage of quality RW (now 5 years older) are responding enthusiastically to my intro emails vs. 5 years ago.   Yet, there are still some real jewels available.  

This was my point to begin with. I don’t know if it’s just a Russian thing, or what (interdependant vs. independant), but the Russians definitely have a bunker down mentality when things turn for the worse. Meaning they rely much more on each other.

The women IMO, because of their new found wealth so to speak, were becoming as you might imagine, a tad bit more independent (this from 2004-2007). There were just a lot more single available women in this city and around Russia in general. Especially the 18-30 crowd. If I was to quantify it I would say that less than half were in a serious relationship, whereas now I would put that number at 70-80%.

So the mindset shifted with the downturn in the economy. There are other reasons too, like the obvious, they are getting older and the stigma of having a man in their life..

Personally, I prefer the new, more selective RW because it eliminates quickly those with lukewarm interest.  Such RW may have feigned interest or reacted positively under the perception that she needs a good man, any good man, and good men are rare.

Me too.

Has the RW response to your "advances/flirtations"   changed?

Not well . Actually, I’ve settled down myself. The player has never set well here, not that he does anywhere, but here more so, and they simply despise a “бобник”.

[chivo]

The lady in south Moscow I rented an apartment from in 2001 had home internet.  The USRobotics 9.6 modem she had cost her around $500 at that time.  Home computers were high priced then also.

Compared to the west, very high.

This is another example of why the internet has grown. Prices for PC's, laptops, and electronics in general have decreased by as much as 50% over the last couple of years, which of course has helped the increase in users considerably. Also the availability of DSL in all areas of Russia.

When I first moved here there was a big internet cafe in the underground mall by the Kremlin. Literally a 100 or more computers and packed from morning till night. Sometimes I would have to wait 20-30 minutes to get on a computer. It's a restaurant now

[chivo]

Lily: The suggestion is RW will adopt a "presumption of innocence" (and give the guy a chance without prejudice) whereas the AW will adopt a "presumption of guilt" position until he can prove otherwise.

Not exactly what I meant, but I'll try to explain myself better later as it's time to go to work.

[JR]

Can you explain me what is a difference between 'wanting a man' and 'needing a man'?

You "want" to smell the roses.

You "need" to breathe air.

[JohnDearGreen]

What has changed?
Economy.

Ladies who are both financially successful and attractive will always be an order of
magnitude more selective.

The 2nd FSU lady I met left her previous job to start a 3-woman auditing firm in Lviv.
She arrived late Saturday morning and was scheduled to leave early Sunday evening. 
I was ready to end my search right then, so I suggest "Why don't you stay the rest
of the week?"  But she says "got to get back to work Monday morning." 
I got nowhere with that one.

Another lady left her job to partner in an import/export business.   I ask her "What
kind of trinkets are you selling?".  She replies that the local mill has a boatload of
1/8 inch iron rod they need to sell.  I show her some search tricks on AltaVista
and Google, and we find a dozen places between Poland and China looking to buy that
size of iron rod.  She already knew which countries were feasible to do business
with, so I guess she probably didn't need any help from me.   Next time I talk to
her she had a new $4000 laptop so she could work from home.

[Eduard]

Hi Chivo,
For the last year or two I've been noticing a lot more negative comments/attitude toward the USA from RW that we contact. I have my own ideas as to the causes of this new phenomena, but since you live there for a few years now, would be interesting to hear your perspective on this.
Ed

[chivo]

Good to see you back Ed.

I have my own ideas about it as well. Maybe if you give me an idea of what you're getting as far as feedback goes first, I can give you my opinion.

[Eduard]

Good to see you back Ed.

I have my own ideas about it as well. Maybe if you give me an idea of what you're getting as far as feedback goes first, I can give you my opinion.

well, it's basically along the line of "I don't like America" and "I would never want to live in America" when they get contacted by American men. The rate of positive response to Canadians and European clients of mine is noticeably better. In Russia, I mainly attribute this to a well organised anti-American media campaign for the past several years. Although it's very subtle, sometimes even subliminal, still it is obvious to me, and evidently it is working... Funny that when they talk about the USA on TV in Russia, much of the time it's not what they say but how they say it, i.e. sarcastic tone of voice + facial expressions they use. Sadly enough, Russian younger generation doesn't even realise that 90% (in my estimation) of all positive improvements since the fall of the USSR are borrowed, ripped off and licensed from the USA. Probably 70% of the TV programming that they are watching are American movies (dubbed in Russian) and shows. They also take concepts that proved to be successful here and have their own versions of them - for example a Russian version of "Married with Children" and "Sally Jessie Rafael" shows. I mean, it is hilarious to watch the US 80s shows now being revamped "Russian language style". The Russian "Sally Jessy Rafael" could work as the original's double. She imitates everything - hair style, geeky glasses, how she walked and talked, facial expressions, everything!  Same deal with the Russian version of "Married with Children". They use different names but everything else is copied, even the furniture in the house is the same the way it's set up. There are other shows as well. Russians off course think that these are original concepts... Same goes for music and other art forms. 

In Ukraine it's a different story IMO. I don't find that women have a specifically anti-American mood parse, I'd say that UW are a bit jaded there and have an image of WM based on the WM that go there for whatever reasons. And IMO many of the WM that go to Ukraine are not the best representation of WM to say the least...

So what are your thoughts on this, Chivo?

[Jack]

And IMO many of the WM that go to Ukraine are not the best representation of WM to say the least...

Wow!   What a statement. What a really telling statement I might add.

Have you ever stopped to think as to why YOU are experiencing this eduard?  And the reason I ask is I just had a group of really wonderful WM, maybe one of the best overall groups I have ever had.  In reality eduard most of my clients, well over 90%, are some of the best representations of WM.  If YOU are experiencing anything any different, as it seems, maybe it's you or the type of clients that you appear to attract?  ..... to say the least.