Anti-USA propaganda ? Or just plain sick...

[Faux Pas]

Can anyone give me some constructive advice and maybe give this thread a chance to have a good purpose and positive result?

I think admitting to ourselves that this isn't a nationality issue or confined by borders would be a start. I would venture to guess that child abuse, foreign or domestic percentage wise is likely the same the world over.

Some who adopt from foreign lands are likely circumventing a system that will not let them adopt from available sources and some are actually looking to improve the adopted child's prospects. When you compare a Russian orphan's prospects to an  American orphan's prospects, there really isn't a question as to possibilities in "quality of life".

There are much more well meaning and good adoptive parents the world over that are "tainted" by these few bad apple parents. They are not limited to these cases receiving the attention either. "Throwing the baby out with the bath water"  (pun intended) is not a viable solution. Just saying

[Blues Fairy]

I think that you are smart enough to know that in Russia you do not *have* to bribe people, however if you want things today (and Americans usually do, if only because of their expensive trips) you have the opportunity.  No Russian official will tell you openly that they want money, they will however suggest a deal is possible. It is your choice to accept or not.

I think hope you are smart enough to understand that after jumping through hoops, traveling a thousand miles and spending a fortune on the adoption process, a prospective adoptive parent, when "suggested" to pay a bribe in order to complete this process, does not have that much of a choice.  Blaming Russian corruption on Americans is just brilliant.

Q - Why in the world adopt a kid from halfway around the world?.. aren't there plenty of kids to adopt in the US (or elsewhere for that matter)?

Are you seriously asking this?  Most parents of the adopted Russian kids I know were driven by a genuine desire to do good; to give family to an orphan from a country where his/her chances would have been much less bright.  Most of these kids had health conditions. 

[GQBlues]

Can anyone give me some constructive advice and maybe give this thread a chance to have a good purpose and positive result?

BC-

None of the Americans had ever taken the position to deny child abuse is wrong, nor do anyone even attempted to deny a number of adopted Russian children had been abused/murdered at the hands of their adopting American parent/s. Read the thread again.

And just like Boethius, your address to the issue at hand strictly and solely in the vein of child abuse is rather ridiculous.

Then to top it off, another silly self-righteous european comes trotting in with torch a-flaming when he should have been better served to understand what was happening in his own backyard.

Put things in proper context when discussing these issues. 1 in 1,000,000 abused child is 1 too many, I will agree whether it happens in Norway (LOL), the Vatican, USA, Russia, etc...But to solely discuss it, and post articles and pictures of unfortunate though relatively 'few' cases denote other intentions than to promote a civil discussion. Boethius's sampling wasn't to further discuss this issue. Hardly. She took the deliberate delight to attempt to try and rub our faces in it.

34,000 adoptions and NOT one happy story, eh? Too much trouble for her Googling time?

Thus, it served nothing more than to unfairly dismissed the overwhelming numbers of successful adoptions that transpired between these two nations. But maybe the intent behind the thread wasn't really about abused Russian kids? Abused kids after all, is found all over the place in this globe. That much I'm sure we can fully agree on.

[BC]

Are you seriously asking this?  Most parents of the adopted Russian kids I know were driven by a genuine desire to do good; to give family to an orphan from a country where his/her chances would have been much less bright.  Most of these kids had health conditions. 

Admittedly a bit tongue in cheek, but with a thought provoking streak between the lines.  I'm sure there are many well intending parents out there, but as you indicate, a lot of kids with health and other problems.  As there are men thinking they can somehow 'save' FSU women, some prospective parents might get bit by the same bug and take on more than they bargained for.  IIRC the last time a topic came to light with a child adopted from FSU who had difficulty in the west, it seems the woman involved either did not have a good support structure, was not monitored close enough or was unwilling to admit she needed help.  Think it was the mother who put her adoptive son alone on a plane back to RU with a 'return to sender, defective merchandise' note.  I wonder how the boy is doing now..

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/boy-sent-to-russia-cant-be-adopted/429172.html

If you find that RWD thread, you will note that many of the same hoops being jumped through there are a repeat act in this thread.

[BC]

GQ, Faux,

It's really quite strange that both of you would hit on the same quote.. Maybe my intent wasn't that clear after all...  The advice I was asking is if someone around here knew of a good trustworthy organization that helps orphanages in RU.

The intent of my posts is along the lines of
http://ccainstitute.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/adoptions-from-russia/

The U.S. Dept. of State’s website reports, “the talks were fruitful, and further progress was made.”  The focus of these talks include ways that both U.S. and Russian officials can ensure that adoptive parents are both better screened and prepared for the realities of parenting.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/US-Russia%20Joint%20Statement%20on%20Intercountry%20Adoption.pdf

A fifth round of talks between two governments for a non-issue?

We talk a lot around here about cultural adjustment, the gazillion difficulties, scams and ails of adults in, or desiring international relationships, along with cases of abuse, homicides etc..  Think kids don't experience such?

I find the parallels too stark to simply ignore.

Something wrong with that?

[Boethius]

You missed the point, GQ.  It doesn't matter how many successful adoptions there are.   If children are allowed to be placed in homes where abuse exists, there is something wrong with the system.  Remember, we are not talking about one child here, and I only pulled cases in which children were murdered by their "forever families".  I didn't post cases of adoption by pedophiles, removal from abusive homes, etc.

As I noted, in at least one case, the parents had criminal records for domestic battery.  How well were they screened?  That's the issue.  End of story.

[GQBlues]

BC-

Since '08, the US is governed by the Hague convention, just like any other European nation, thus their adoption procedures is no different than those of the European members.

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/hague.cfm

There had been talks back last year for a more stringent regulations since the case of the boy sent to Moscow by his US mumski spurred an international ire. What came of that 'regulatory agreement', I have no idea since I don't follow this as adoption is not something I am involved in. I know there was a report that other Nations such as France, the UK, etc...was about to sign an agreement with Russia at the same time the US was supposed to do so as well. What new regulatory guidelines are in it, dunno. Since Russia is a non-signatory to Hague, I gather their agreement to each member state will be different respectively. How different, again, dunno.

To date, this is the process for any US parent/s adopting from other countries, notably, Russia: http://adoption.state.gov/country/russia.html

Adoption statistics per country: Africa/China at the top of the adoption countries (dispelling the notion they only want white kids)  http://adoption.state.gov/news/total_chart.html

Kidsave.org, a US based child adoption organization spearheaded oversights and programs to assist orphans in Russia. They had since established centers to help and aid 'maturing' Russian orphans that were not adopted and are about to be released into their society despite whatever shortcomings they will face.  Stuff like this didn't take ardous amounts of time to find. My guess is maybe these are censored in Canada.

http://www.kidsave.org/russian.shtml

[GQBlues]

You missed the point, GQ.

Oh no! On the contrary, I got YOUR point very well Boethius.

[BC]

BC-

Since '08, the US is governed by the Hague convention, just like any other European nation, thus their adoption procedures is no different than those of the European members.

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/hague.cfm

There had been talks back last year for a more stringent regulations since the case of the boy sent to Moscow by his US mumski spurred an international ire. What came of that 'regulatory agreement', I have no idea since I don't follow this as adoption is not something I am involved in. I know there was a report that other Nations such as France, the UK, etc...was about to sign an agreement with Russia at the same time the US was supposed to do so as well. What new regulatory guidelines are in it, dunno. Since Russia is a non-signatory to Hague, I gather their agreement to each member state will be different respectively. How different, again, dunno.

To date, this is the process for any US parent/s adopting from other countries, notably, Russia: http://adoption.state.gov/country/russia.html

Adoption statistics per country: Africa/China at the top of the adoption countries (dispelling the notion they only want white kids)  http://adoption.state.gov/news/total_chart.html

Kidsave.org, a US based child adoption organization spearheaded oversights and programs to assist orphans in Russia. They had since established centers to help and aid 'maturing' Russian orphans that were not adopted and are about to be released into their society despite whatever shortcomings they will face.  Stuff like this didn't take ardous amounts of time to find. My guess is maybe these are censored in Canada.

GQ,

http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.status&cid=69  Shows Russia signed but did not ratify.. guess they wanted something a bit more, like the reporting I'll mention below.  It did take a while for the US to ratify the 1993 Convention after signing it in 1994, with effect 2008 as you mentioned.

Yes, seems that some countries are indeed implementing bi-lateral agreements with Russia, just a guess but likely these agreements require procedures that go above and beyond the Hague Convention, but admit not having read the agreements yet.. maybe Botheus can find such somewhere.  Think the first agreement was with Italy and some articles refer to it as the model for future agreements.  Think NZ has one also. 

I'll look into kidsave.org  Yes, plenty to google but was looking more for something closer to home or someone here with direct experience or contacts in RU.  Canadian internet censored?  Little off topic I guess, but if you referred to me, that's an awful strange Canadian flag at the left..

A little research on this end:

Seems Russia maintains a blacklist of adoption agencies that have not followed up on their 3 year post adoption reporting obligations. (such reporting not mentioned in the Conventions)

http://blog.russianadoptionhelp.com/2011/01/russian-officials-update-black-list.html

Their list http://www.usynovite.ru/f/documents/federal/regulations/pismaot2004/050410/black_list.doc  shows quite a few of the approved agencies on the following link which is a Department of State list of accredited adoption service providers.

http://adoption.state.gov/hague/agency4.php?q=0&q1=&q2=0&q4=0&q5=0&dirfld=01

For 450 bucks, this 'facilitator' will help with correspondence, translation and other help to resolve compliance issues and get the adoption agency off the black list.  Just to show that adoption is a business too..

Doesn't mean in any way that these are scam type operations, but guess RU feels a little tighter leash is needed along with an active, centralized organization to ensure reporting is done properly and on time.

Well I'm off the night shift, so heading to bed.

Cheers!

[Jumper]

Most Americans who are adopting FSU children do so because they want to give those children a better life.  There are many Americans who adopt teens who otherwise would end up on the streets once they aged out of Russian/Ukrainian orphanages.  Often, it is church groups who have missions in the FSU who spread the word of children living in appalling conditions in orphanages, and those parents adopt from the heart, for no other reason.  And, despite the stories I linked above and my view that one dead child is too many, there have been over 40,000 Russian children adopted by Americans and, obviously, most are not abused.

Boe thanks for showing that as well.
that was my earlier point

40,000 adoptions

until a balanced view of adpotions vs abuse cases is shown ,
and  for other countries as well
for example the rate of abuse in russian domestic adoptions..or that process.
no one has a real point of reference?


I certainly am for more checks and balances.
Unlike most of the contributors here , i know the domestic adoption process quite well through
personal experience.I know the Russian adoption process through frequent contact with i man I have known for over 30 years as one of my best friends.

Most of the emotion shown here is not in line with reality. but that's what shock TV is for.


My friend is a mulatto, his wife asian they adopted Russians.
It had nothing to do with race, it had nothing to do with domestic process in the US as they qualify for an have been foster parents previously.
It had to do with where they felt  children had less chance of being adopted, what age group had less chance,  and at the end of the day, influenced by their church who was already heavily involved in helping out orphanages in the FSU with yearly trips there to do renovations and other things.
 
I am not saying the USA shouldnt adopt a more stringent policy for adoptive parents to be screened.
There is strong evidence that they should.

Yet I do  feel it should not be MORE stringent than the Russian domestic adoptive screening process in place currently.There would be  more harmed than gained by being too stringent.

Anyone compared those yet?
Do they even know them?
Dint think so, they are too busy being emotional and pointing fingers.

some balanced reporting would be nice

 Lets not lose sight that most people whom open their homes, regardles nationality,
do so for far more charitable reasons than are shown by people nit-picking here.

The rate of abuse is not brought up in FSU orphanages either .and it would be incredibly hard to get accurate data.

 I'm sorry to bring reality into this, but in the real world stopping USA adoption althogether would likely harm more children and have more abused than most ANY other single action taken.
In fact it would likely contribute to child trafficking.
Think big picture,
if you can not ,
then you harm more children than are already being harmed, you add to the problem ,not solve it.

 I have a little experience in this *type* of situation.Its similar to bringing a means of more potable water to certain regions of Africa.Poor water quality is one of the major causes of infant mortality.
The rate there  is staggering /shocking and very disturbing, it could be drastically reduced.
and you could *somewhat* easily and  cost effectively greatly reduce infant mortality rather quickly.
its been proven and done in some sections.
Know that once you do so, the toddler and pre-teen mortality rate will absolutely sky rocket in the same region
 where food resources cannot handle a higher population rate,and no realistic hope of meeting that demand exists in any percentages that would be even close to handling the "prospective forcasted load" if decreasing infant mortality..
What to do? Any of you going to make that decision?Can you sleep well at night either way?
 Is that some small perspective on  child abuse. .someone makes that decision.And they have to decide for the greatest good. Be glad its not you right?

As far as the FSU adoptions .. an imperfect solution is in place now for a bad situation ,
to compound it it is not the best action.
To review it ,see its exact weaknesses and address them is.

Work to provide a more stringent process for US adoptive parents, absolutely!!
yet continue to allow adoption, and allowing the charities that go to the FSU to provide funds for orphanages there. While hopefully addressing some of the  FSU corruption within the same process.

[ECOCKS]

I particularly like your point about the impact on the Russian orphans if the foreign standards are in excess of the Russian ones. Sometimes we miss the forrest because we're so busy marveling at the trees.

[Shadow]

I guess people still miss the point here.

It is not about what local prospects are, or what adoption requirements in any country are.
The point is what happens after the adoption process is completed.

I can imagine that foster parents are checked on regularly, and regardless of where the adopted children come from that is what should happen.
Also I would be in favour of a system where you are only allowed to adopt a child from another country after you get qualification to be a local foster parent, ensuring that this is not an evasion of existing qualifications.

And note that I do not care which countries are involved.
Any adopted child should be protected from abuse, and if adoption is crossing borders it should be protected double.

[Blues Fairy]

Any adopted child should be protected from abuse, and if adoption is crossing borders it should be protected double.

I think ANY child should be protected from abuse, adopted or not, but I have no idea how to ensure that without seriously infringing on the privacy and rights of the parents.  It's a very fine line. 
I know it's a larger issue than what we've been discussing so far. 

[ECOCKS]

I think ANY child should be protected from abuse, adopted or not, but I have no idea how to ensure that without seriously infringing on the privacy and rights of the parents.  It's a very fine line. 
I know it's a larger issue than what we've been discussing so far. 

BF, we're in basic agreement that EVERY child deserves protection, adopted, biological or sitting in any type of orphanage or foster-care situation.

Frankly though, I don't see a privacy concern of the parents. If they volunteer to adopt then they are basically waiving a portion of their rights in order to carry out a choice. If I go in to buy a gun I have no problem with the background check for medical and criminal records including domestic violence. When i realized I was going to marry a foreign citizen I had no concern with her looking over my previous divorce decree, financial statement or previous years' tax returns. In a similar fashion there is nothing wrong with a country setting standards on the investigatory responsibilities beforehand or follow-up over a time period covering the child's reaching majority. This is proper and prudent of the originating country and should be a basic service of the receiving country for ALL adopted and foster children.

AJ's point of the negative impact on FSU children by having more stringent standards for foreign adoption versus internal is well-taken. Leaving those thousands of children in the orphanages, without as much hope of adoption into a family which will provide them opportunities for love and education would be silly.

[Jumper]

I dont think i missed that point Shadow.

Ongoing checks of the childs welfare could  be included in any new guidelines for adoptive parents.

No one has shown what they are now in the USA.
Neither has anyone shown what they are for domestic adoption in Russia ,
and if any followup exits other than a typical DCSF services similar to the USA.
Or if they do, or do not, even exist.

Its easy to say who cares what the standards are for domestic adoption within Russia ,
but in the bigger picture it does matter,and knee jerk reactions potentially do more harm than good.
 
To those people actively finding imperfect solutions to large problems the less of two evils is often the
 choice they face.(as in my earlier example)
That  may be unsavoury, it may tug at heart strings,
 it will not likely change the reality that a decision made emotionally,instead of pragmatically ,
 would harm more children than it helped.

For all the banter back and forth i havn't seen any US citizen against more stringent guidelines or continuing checks on the adopted childs welfare.

[Shadow]

AJ's point of the negative impact on FSU children by having more stringent standards for foreign adoption versus internal is well-taken. Leaving those thousands of children in the orphanages, without as much hope of adoption into a family which will provide them opportunities for love and education would be silly.

If the adopting parents really care for the children, the extra hurdles will not be a problem, while weeding out those who care about them selves.

The simple reactions of a few here who rather than being concerned about a failure of a system in their country wish to point at the possibility of other countries being worse show volumes.

When you take a child out from its native country and circumstances, it lands in a position many times weaker than a child in its native country with biological parents. That alone is enough to give extra protection by the authorities, and if that protection shows the need for improvement in any area it should be a major concern.

If it would be about a presumed safety threat that has a chance to occur once in a lifetime it woud attract millions of dollars, as it concerns a "handful" of foreign children no need to act.
And lets make clear its not just a problem af the two countries involved in this news item, the same thing happens in many other countries aroud the world and should be equally addressed there.

[Faux Pas]

If the adopting parents really care for the children, the extra hurdles will not be a problem, while weeding out those who care about them selves.

The simple reactions of a few here who rather than being concerned about a failure of a system in their country wish to point at the possibility of other countries being worse show volumes.

When you take a child out from its native country and circumstances, it lands in a position many times weaker than a child in its native country with biological parents. That alone is enough to give extra protection by the authorities, and if that protection shows the need for improvement in any area it should be a major concern.

If it would be about a presumed safety threat that has a chance to occur once in a lifetime it woud attract millions of dollars, as it concerns a "handful" of foreign children no need to act.
And lets make clear its not just a problem af the two countries involved in this news item, the same thing happens in many other countries aroud the world and should be equally addressed there.

A failure of the system in America is in essence, an indictment of the system everywhere. I don't think anyone disagrees that as long as one child is abused the "system" has failed. I further do not think that anyone disagrees that until there is 100% success rate the system has to be improved. No contest there.

However, to insist the system be terminated until 100% success can be guaranteed is quite a stretch. In this instances there would be no adoptions. Boethuis pointed out 15 deaths and likely many untold cases of abuse. Of the 40K adoptions that success rate is still very high. Do you suggest halting adoptions and the 39,500 successful cases each year for the 15 deaths and 485 abuse cases? Those last two numbers by the way are pulled out of thin air

[Shadow]

A failure of the system in America is in essence, an indictment of the system everywhere. I don't think anyone disagrees that as long as one child is abused the "system" has failed. I further do not think that anyone disagrees that until there is 100% success rate the system has to be improved. No contest there.

However, to insist the system be terminated until 100% success can be guaranteed is quite a stretch. In this instances there would be no adoptions. Boethuis pointed out 15 deaths and likely many untold cases of abuse. Of the 40K adoptions that success rate is still very high. Do you suggest halting adoptions and the 39,500 successful cases each year for the 15 deaths and 485 abuse cases? Those last two numbers by the way are pulled out of thin air

Neither I, nor Russia suggests to halt until there is an utopic 100% system, but instead rquest that the system is checked to avoid repetition of similar cases. Every fix will lead to people who need loopholes to find a new one, until we run out of ill-willed people or until all holes are plugged.

[SFandEE]

This can be said, it is viewed by many Americans as anti-USA propaganda, especially by those Americans who see this as a national problem and not a humanity problem.  I would also add that many in that same group would state that it is not likely Russia(ns) can address the issues of orphans internally now, since they haven't met their standards relative to the USA in the past.

I believe Russians can do a better job of taking care of their orphans and I hope that this situation will provide the impetus for this to be done.  Tea taxes, slave or union states, and 9/11 are all examples of triggers that resulted in USA change.  Why can't poorly cared for Russian orphans that were sent to foreign nations be a trigger for orphan care reform in Russia?  I do not think that the USA meets the standard of good enough at this time and I do not think that the standard will be improved over time any time soon.

[JR]

As for stopping travel, if there are any American killed there I guess that America will say "hey it is up to Russia to change security, not our business if someone blows up our people there".

Yep, that's pretty much what we do say. Read some of the Embassy warnings about travel to foreign (froeign for Americans) countries: you'll reads stern warnigns about the dangers but no prohibitions.

It's called personal responsibility.

[SFandEE]

Perhaps Russians gaining more insight about how a few Russian orphans are being killed in USA and other nations as an alternative to stay in even worse situation in Russia will take

personal responsibility

that results in national improvement of their care systems for Russian orphans.  Since it seems agreed that once the Russian orphans are in the US it becomes the

personal responsibility

of screened American parents and the American government and social support systems. 


My position is that this is not anti-USA, but an opportunity for Russians to become more enlightened on the options that currently face Russian orphans and that they will have the opportunity to improve their prospects internally, because once these orphans are sent to USA they are dependent on the USA to honor the lives of Russian children.  Maybe they are deciding how they feel about that as a result of this "propaganda".

[SMS60]

I do not think that the USA meets the standard of good enough at this time and I do not think that the standard will be improved over time any time soon.

If a man tries to help his neighbor in goodness and the neighbor ridicules the help I say screw the neighbor.

So, I still say screw the rest of the world. Line the battleships up and down the left and right coasts. Put the tanks on the southern border and the boy scouts in the north then sit back and have a good life.

Now a question. We dont meet the standards. What country should we look to for encouragement? Which one takes in 40,000 orphans? Where is the perfect system in this perfect world? France? UK? Germany? Belgium? Norway? Where do we find guidance on how to do this with 100% efficiency?

[SFandEE]

I think the standard of killed and tortured children is not good enough.  Volume wise, America is doing a great job of processing people.  We are the Wal-Mart of adoptions.

As to efficiency I would direct it more to infrastructure and accountability.  We are a culture of personal accountability after all and other nations are something else I guess.

[Shadow]

If a man tries to help his neighbor in goodness and the neighbor ridicules the help I say screw the neighbor.

So, I still say screw the rest of the world. Line the battleships up and down the left and right coasts. Put the tanks on the southern border and the boy scouts in the north then sit back and have a good life.

Perhaps you woud be less enthusiastic if the rest of the world woud say screw the U.S.

[wicheese]

Now one thing that was not mentioned much, but what is Russia's responsibility of letting the adopting families know the true emotional state of the child and what conditions like FAS that they might be suffering from?  I only say this because you can take a perfectly normal family (does not matter what the nationality), all the checks come back clean (criminal check and home study) and if they adopt a nice well adapted child, you'll never have any problems.  But, put a disruptive child in the same home and then the parents can't cope (should such a family adopt in the first place, no, but how do you know unless they are put in a difficult situation and then evaluated). So the true question is, is there enough support mechanisms in place to provide assistance to a family that might end up adopting a dysfunctional child and what is Russia doing to ensure full discloser is taking place?