Anti-USA propaganda ? Or just plain sick...

[JR]

I guess people still miss the point here.

No we got your point right off the bat: "Anti-USA progaganda." It's what you wanted and it's what you started.

It is not about what local prospects are, or what adoption requirements in any country are.
The point is what happens after the adoption process is completed.

No it should be about the adoption requirements of the donor nation. If they "sell" their child citizens to just anyone without proper screening it is really them who is failing.

I can imagine that foster parents are checked on regularly, and regardless of where the adopted children come from that is what should happen.

Stop imagining, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Also I would be in favour of a system where you are only allowed to adopt a child from another country after you get qualification to be a local foster parent, ensuring that this is not an evasion of existing qualifications.

~~~~~~
That's ignorant. Children are abused in foster homes all the time. You're just spewing forth without knowing what you are talking about.
~~~~~~


And note that I do not care which countries are involved.

~~~~~~
I call you out on that...you DO care, you care very much. Your header is "Anti-USA" not "ANTI-CHILD ABUSE." Nothing stopped you from finding local cases that are similar in nature and making it a useful debate of a world-wide problem or insightful self (your nation) examination. YOU made the issue American. And you did it intentionally. Don’t give me this *snip* about it being on American TV. You didn’t see it on American television. If it had been a French TV program you wouldn’t have posted about it.
~~~~~~


Any adopted child should be protected from abuse, and if adoption is crossing borders it should be protected double.
~~~~~~


Until any child is adopted that child is the responsibility of its native country. It is up to the donor nation to screen potential parents.  Once the child immigrates to the new host nation they become the responsibility of that nation. That is the only way it can realistically work.

[Shadow]

Yep, that's pretty much what we do say. Read some of the Embassy warnings about travel to foreign (froeign for Americans) countries: you'll reads stern warnigns about the dangers but no prohibitions.

It's called personal responsibility.

That is why the American Embassy supported the kidnapping of a child by her American father. Personal responsibility goes just one way.

As for your next post, it shows that personal responsibility is an alien concept to you.

I used the term anti- US propaganda to avert people like you turning the issue in to it being only to put America in a negative light.  Stay away from Russian women, thay could hurt your American feelings.

[JR]

Perhaps you woud be less enthusiastic if the rest of the world woud say screw the U.S.

That is exactly what the world says now.

[Shadow]

That is exactly what the world says now.

The world is still supporting the U.S., however the U.S. is no longer happy with the support they get.
edited.

[SMS60]

I think the standard of killed and tortured children is not good enough.  Volume wise, America is doing a great job of processing people.  We are the Wal-Mart of adoptions.

As to efficiency I would direct it more to infrastructure and accountability.  We are a culture of personal accountability after all and other nations are something else I guess.

Ok, we have a problem. What is your solution? I guess from reading is stop all adoptions? Should we do this? Just say what we should do?

I say leave it alone and the system will get better. I see all good.

[SMS60]

Perhaps you woud be less enthusiastic if the rest of the world woud say screw the U.S.

Only in my dreams.

P.S. We might have to string the Chinese along until we can convince them to forgive our debt. But then its smooth sailing.

[SFandEE]

I don't have sufficient information to provide a solution.  I have commented in a few areas as to propaganda, standards, accountability, and opportunity for Russia to improve their system.

The solution of no adoptions would eliminate the small percentage of displaced children that are tortured and killed by American parents while also eliminating the considerable majority of children that are brought into at least an adequate situation, certainly better than where they are.

If things continue as they are there will be less chance for improvements made to the Russian system I believe.  Although I have invested some time into this thread I feel I have answered as best I can the ongoing challenges.  I will do my best to exit from this discussion at this time.  I don't think the objective of the discussion is for people who post on RWD to solve the challenges faced by Russia(ns) in taking care of their orphans.

[Voyager36]

As long as America keeps telling that you *have* to bribe Russians, they will be waving their walltes at every corner. I think that you are smart enough to know that in Russia you do not *have* to bribe people, however if you want things today (and Americans usually do, if only because of their expensive trips) you have the opportunity.
No Russian official will tell you openly that they want money, they will however suggest a deal is possible. It is your choice to accept or not.

It is also *suggested* that failure to pay these "addtional fees" will result in a delay of many months as paperwork is "lost" or in Limbo.
So yes, if you are willing to put your life on hold for a half year or more while you battle the bureaucrats to save $100 or so... 

[JR]

That is why the American Embassy supported the kidnapping of a child by her American father. Personal responsibility goes just one way.
Spewing forth: no evidence...besides, why wouldn't the American Embassy support the repatriation of one of it's citizens by the father who is also a citizen???
As for your next post, it shows that personal responsibility is an alien concept to you.
No, it shows that your only desire is to stir up shit. I know of no nation that holds it citizen responsible for crimes committed in another country. At most they allow extradition for trial by the accusing nation.
I used the term anti- US propaganda to avert people like you turning the issue in to it being only to put America in a negative light.  Stay away from Russian women, thay could hurt your American feelings.
No you used it to tie it into an anti-American theme. You are so transparent it's not worth talking about.

[ECOCKS]

If a man tries to help his neighbor in goodness and the neighbor ridicules the help I say screw the neighbor.

So, I still say screw the rest of the world. Line the battleships up and down the left and right coasts. Put the tanks on the southern border and the boy scouts in the north then sit back and have a good life.

Now a question. We dont meet the standards. What country should we look to for encouragement? Which one takes in 40,000 orphans? Where is the perfect system in this perfect world? France? UK? Germany? Belgium? Norway? Where do we find guidance on how to do this with 100% efficiency?

Don't let yourself get snagged in the political aims/goals of various foreign and domestic agendas.

[GQBlues]

I used the term anti- US propaganda to avert people like you turning the issue in to it being only to put America in a negative light.

But that's exactly what one or two folks had done on a thread like this. They offerred NO balance or reference point to keep the topic on a civil platform i.e. look at the first 3 posts Boethius posted. There had been NO other thoughts or attempt to render any type of a balanced discussion on those posts. She seek nothing more than to incite the exact response you seem to be saying you want to prevent yet did nothing to support your intent.

Matter of fact, you seem to be surpised when people reacted in the manner they did. That's counter to what you claim above.

C'mon Shadow, if Boethius can't come clean, at least maybe you can since this was your topic.

BC-

The offtopic sarcasm was a stab at a Canadian. I know you're an ex-pat living in Italy.

[GQBlues]

I believe there ought to be equal accountability in these matters to insure prevention of unfortunate cases of abuse. Orphanages need to make proper care and evaluation of these kids before releasing them into adopting parents. Heck, even animals shelters won't released dogs unless they went through a process to make sure they're fit for adoption. Do not release a child for adoption of they are in fact a problem child. If so, make sure the prospective parents are aware what they are getting into.

Adopting parents also need to be evaluated, if not more so, to make sure they're fit to be parents.

At this point, I am not versed enough with the process to see if this is being done or otherwise. Unless anyone have actual information pertaining to international adoption protocol, all we're doing right now is toss darts in a darkened room.

The US requirements for adoption is no different than any other nation under the Hague convention as long as the adoption source belongs to the same convention. The only difference would be is in each nation's respective immigration process.

Since Russia doesn't belong in the Hague, that put a twist into this matter. Hence, that is why Russia was conducting independent bi-lateral agreements with every nation wanting to adopt their children.

Which countries do and don't belong in the Convention?
http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/hague.cfm#table

Post-adoption? So far, this is what's posted on the US' site:

AFTER ADOPTION

What does Russia require of the adoptive parents after the adoption?

Adopted Russian children must be registered with the Government of Russia either by registering  with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) before they leave the country or by working with their adoption agency to register their adopted children with the G.O.R. when they return to the U.S.  If registering prior to departing Russia.  U.S. citizen families should do this after an adopted child has received an immigrant visa to the United States.

Russia requires periodic post-adoption placement reports on the welfare of the adopted orphan in his or her American family.  The initial post-placement report is due six months after the court decision went into effect.  The second report is due six months after the first report but no later than 12 months after the court decision.  The third report is due at 24 months and the fourth at 36 months.

We strongly urge you to comply with the wish of Russia and complete all post-adoption requirements in a timely manner.  Your adoption agency may be able to help you with this process.  Your cooperation will contribute to that country’s history of positive experiences with American parents.

What resources are available to assist families after the adoption?

Many adoptive parents find it important to find support after the adoption.  Take advantage of all the resources available to your family--whether it’s another adoptive family, a support group, an advocacy organization, or your religious or community services.  

Here are some good places to start your support group search:

Child Welfare Information Gateway
Families for Russian and Ukrainian Adoption (FRUA)
North American Council on Adoptable Children

* Note:  Inclusion of non-U.S. Government links does not imply endorsement of contents.

http://adoption.state.gov/country/russia.html

[Voyager36]

But that's exactly what one or two folks had done on a thread like this. They offerred NO balance or reference point to keep the topic on a civil platform i.e. look at the first 3 posts Boethius posted. There had been NO other thoughts or attempt to render any type of a balanced discussion on those posts.

These posts?

The emotional aspect means people will watch, and perhaps they will learn and take action. There have been numerous FSU children abused or murdered by their adoptive families.  Yes, thousands have great families, but there is less oversight in a foreign adoption than there is in adopting a pet.  That's the issue he is trying to address.

It's apples and oranges.  There is more oversight for the adoption of American born children than there is of foreign borns.  So, individuals who would be rejected for the adoption of an American born child can adopt a foreign child.  And that is something governments in all FSU countries, as well as U.S. states, need to address.

I happen to think that Doc P is an arrogant fool and probably seeking to "push the buttons" to drive ratings, but the points that Boethius raised are reasonable & valid. 

[JR]

These posts?

I happen to think that Doc P is an arrogant fool and probably seeking to "push the buttons" to drive ratings,

Do ya think?????? I have personal experience with that particular Doc and yes, it is about drama becuase drama sells. He's on TV for a reason, same as all the others.

[GQBlues]

These posts?

Check that. Reply #1, #49, #50.

The emotional aspect means people will watch, and perhaps they will learn and take action. There have been numerous FSU children abused or murdered by their adoptive families.  Yes, thousands have great families, but there is less oversight in a foreign adoption than there is in adopting a pet.  That's the issue he is trying to address.

It's apples and oranges.  There is more oversight for the adoption of American born children than there is of foreign borns.  So, individuals who would be rejected for the adoption of an American born child can adopt a foreign child.  And that is something governments in all FSU countries, as well as U.S. states, need to address.

Requirements regarding prospective parents

( Both types of adoption (Hague / Non-Hague)

Parents must be approved by the USCIS on the basis of information they provide about their background, health, financial stability, and other characteristics in a home study document. If married, prospective parents must go through the adoption and immigration process together. If single, the prospective parent must be a U.S. citizen; if married, at least one spouse must be a U.S. citizen. The USCIS will conduct background and criminal checks on all household members, including fingerprint checks of all household members aged 18 and older. Individual countries may have specific eligibility requirements for parents regarding age, marital status, health, income, and more.

She didn't bother to Google enough...why should she?

[ECOCKS]

B presented several cases of abuse, tragedy and failure.

Valid, germane to the discussion and certainly tragedies each and every one.

It happens in all systems. We've all agreed on that.

Until you stack it up against the number of children who are abused in the FSU it has little to no relevance except to establish portions of the system which should be fixed by the FSU through better screening and by host countries who take responsibility for their citizens, young and old.

Equally, it is pretty clear that the Russians/FSUians are fascinated with the sensational since their population isn't very effective at absorbing their own orphans. That's not a knock, neither are the Chinese or the Africans.

(I believe) It was publicized for political purposes. Anti-US, diversion of the masses from real internal problems, political bargaining chip, whatever. Not that different than some of the over-reactions that occur here and result in poor, short-term decision-making regarding legislation, tariffs, sanctions, etc.

As for the show itself, well yeah, Dr. Phil ain't Sanjay Gupta, he's got a profit objective to achieve through ratings, so does Jerry Springer, Glen Beck, Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews, Bill O'Reilly and even Oprah.

[Boethius]

n. The USCIS will conduct background and criminal checks on all household members, including fingerprint checks of all household members aged 18 and older.

Didn't happen.  In at least two of the cases of dead adoptees a parent did, indeed have a criminal record for violence.

My point was, in fact, a "balance" to preceding posts which basically stated there is no problem, it's all sensationalized.  It isn't all sensationalized.

It was publicized for political purposes.

Probably.  Perhaps they want Russians to step up.  Or perhaps they are using this to begin the process of halting foreign adoptions.  Ukraine stopped all international adoptions for a period, and now, they are restricted, number wise.

[JR]

Supposed that your daughter had to go to an orphanage because both you and her mother are gone. Would you find it ok if she was adopted by someone who abused her ?
*snip* happens... responsibility is not yours.

That possibility has already been addressed. My daughter would be cared for by a loving and capable family. I have also provided for her financial well being.

I have taken personal responsibility for that remote possibility, not relied upon some uncaring government entity.

[JR]

I dont think i missed that point Shadow.

Ongoing checks of the childs welfare could  be included in any new guidelines for adoptive parents.

It presumes the parents are bad and must be watched. There is a presumption of innocence here.

There are avenues to protect children when the need is shown to exist. To presume someone guilty because they go abroad to adopt is.....not gonna say it.

The donor nation needs to protect it's citizens until they leave, that is where the failure is occurring. In this I agree with Mrs. Shadow stopping the adoptions altogether is not the answer. The VAST majority of those children are not abused by the adoptive families and conversely may be are being saved from what we (Americans) would conside abusive circumstances.

[Blues Fairy]

Here's what I wonder about; suppose all background checks were done properly, on both sides, and adoptive parents agreed to undergo post-adoption checks and counseling.  Is there any guarantee or method against a sick abusive person who hasn't been caught before and has no prior record of abuse, and knows how to subvert the checks?  In this country, social services are a lot more efficient and have more power than in Russia, but still there are numerous cases of child abuse (http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics).  I don't even go into statistical comparison with Russia, given its sorry state of reporting and legal framework for such cases.

True, adopted children are at somewhat greater risk since they don't speak the language and have no other network; but if we take the age under 4 (3 out of 4 cases), there is not really much difference between adopted and natural kids in terms of capability of self-defense.  How do you achieve 100% abuse-proof adoption system without seriously infringing on parents' rights and privacy?  How do you achieve abuse-free society without seriously infringing on people's rights and privacy?  This is the sad reality.  Some kids are, and will be, abused, because there are, and will be, bad parents.  But does it mean having children should be banned?  Does it mean adoptions should be stopped?

[Shadow]

Spewing forth: no evidence...besides, why wouldn't the American Embassy support the repatriation of one of it's citizens by the father who is also a citizen???

How about a U.S. court case that confirms the rights of the mother and there for shows the father and American Embassy were wrong in kidnapping ?

No, it shows that your only desire is to stir up *snip*. I know of no nation that holds it citizen responsible for crimes committed in another country. At most they allow extradition for trial by the accusing nation.

Do you comprehend the English language or read what you think ?
I was talking about that if American citizens were KILLED in the attack, as happened with two British citizens, there might be a request from the U.S. to look in to the matter.

No you used it to tie it into an anti-American theme. You are so transparent it's not worth talking about.

Do you think that if I had not added the possibility of anti-US propaganda you or any other "defender of the nation" would not have immediately tried to point in that direction ?

[Shadow]

That possibility has already been addressed. My daughter would be cared for by a loving and capable family. I have also provided for her financial well being.

I have taken personal responsibility for that remote possibility, not relied upon some uncaring government entity.

The loving and caring family would die with you in the plane crash, leaving a single child with a big bank account. Ideal target for potential abuse.

[Shadow]

It presumes the parents are bad and must be watched. There is a presumption of innocence here.

There are avenues to protect children when the need is shown to exist. To presume someone guilty because they go abroad to adopt is.....not gonna say it.

The donor nation needs to protect it's citizens until they leave, that is where the failure is occurring. In this I agree with Mrs. Shadow stopping the adoptions altogether is not the answer. The VAST majority of those children are not abused by the adoptive families and conversely may be are being saved from what we (Americans) would conside abusive circumstances.

It presumes that children are in a weak position and there for it should be confirmed that parents are the best possible ones that can be found.

You are correct that the donor nation can only protect its citizens until they leave. There for the adopting nation should take over. When a child is adopted in to a society that claims to be able to provide a better life and higher social standards, the donor nation can only expect this society to actually live up to their claims.

[Shadow]

C'mon Shadow, if Boethius can't come clean, at least maybe you can since this was your topic.

I added the anti-US propaganda knowing it could very well be seen as such, and in light of a possible re-negotiation of adoptations it is very likely that such items are to keep the public opinion behind any possible temporary negative effects.

But mostly I placed the topic as parents of a 23-month and 6-month old child who can not imagine that such animals as this "mother" are allowed to keep any children at all, and intervention from a TV show is needed to actually do something about it.

I know the programs of Dr P. and the love of Armican TV for sensational topics. What is a lot harder to understand is that people can show crime on TV (child abuse hopefully *is* a crime) and not suffer any consequences.

A nice comparison is an episode of the Russian "jerry springer", where a con artist who was recently released after 10 years in prison for a pyramid game featured the show.
After all his claims that his new internet "virtual" pyramid was no problem at all, a prosecutor showed up with two uniformed policemen, read the complaints against him and escorted him out to jail.

[Turboguy]

Now one thing that was not mentioned much, but what is Russia's responsibility of letting the adopting families know the true emotional state of the child and what conditions like FAS that they might be suffering from?  I only say this because you can take a perfectly normal family (does not matter what the nationality), all the checks come back clean (criminal check and home study) and if they adopt a nice well adapted child, you'll never have any problems.  But, put a disruptive child in the same home and then the parents can't cope (should such a family adopt in the first place, no, but how do you know unless they are put in a difficult situation and then evaluated). So the true question is, is there enough support mechanisms in place to provide assistance to a family that might end up adopting a dysfunctional child and what is Russia doing to ensure full discloser is taking place?  

I have not read every post in this thread and I realize the topic is poor screening of adoptive parents but there is another side to the coin and I have to think what WiCheese has said is part of the problem.

I didn't see the Dr. Phil show but I have seen a show or two about how damaged some of these kids are.  Often the ones that are available for adoption are the more damaged one.  Even the babies can be damaged.  You would expect that a two year old who has no physical problems would be a normal kid but often in these orphanages the children lay untouched for their whole young life.  Babies are healthier mentally when they are held, played with touched, fed by someone who loves them and even a two year old that has not had that emotional nourishment can end up unable to give or receive affection.  I have seen stories where the young child would keep banging his head on the pavement and others who would try to burn the house down or kill their adoptive parents.  I am sure there are some cases where the parents may have been OK with a more normal baby but when dealing with the things they must they snap. 

I am in agreement that a couple considering adoption of a foreign baby should have all the same background and criminal checks that they would if adopting an American baby.  If that isn't happening it is wrong.  I wish my former secretary still worked for me since she previously worked for an adoption agency arranging adoptions sometimes from Russia and I could find out more from her.  She loved that work and quit here to go back to it.  If I run into her I will ask her more about the checks done for adoptive parents.