Anti-USA propaganda ? Or just plain sick...

[Maxx2]

Maxx2,

I believe you can find that photograph on the front page of RWD. Please elaborate where you are getting at? What are you trying to say?!

3T_Ventus

Model face, big tits, small waist and long legs all wrapped up in a 19 year old body.

[3T_Ventus]

Maxx2 and Faux Pas

Gentlemen, are relationships/marriages prone too failure if men only are attracted and searching for luscious women instead of being balanced and also getting to know the real her, searching for real compatibility?!

3T_Ventus

[ECOCKS]

Model face, big tits, small waist and long legs all wrapped up in a 19 year old body.

Only for the fools Maxx. Of course, as history shows we have plenty of those but time winnows them out eventually.

[Faux Pas]

Maxx2 and Faux Pas

Gentlemen, are relationships/marriages prone too failure if men only are attracted and searching for luscious women instead of being balanced and also getting to know the real her, searching for real compatibility?!

3T_Ventus

The short answer is yes. Does that mean 100% of them are? That answer is no. My guess is most men that enter such marriages are sure they are the exception. Are you? A pretty face, 20-30 years younger and big tits is hardly enough to sustain the marriage in the long term. Probably the bigger question would be, how long before the younger big titted beauty tires of you before you tired of her looks. The odds are greatly stacked against it yet, many continue to try and defy the logic and experience. Many who chase that dream only want or need it for a little while which, as history shows us, is about as long as it lasts.

[Maxx2]

"In this world Elwood you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. For years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." Ditto for RW

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o98q4AufIl8&NR=1[/youtube]

[Rubicon]

Not me. Not anymore. I wish the current talks never gets resolved and this latest event should give a stronger cause to terminate any adoption negotiations between the US and Russia. Period.

Prospective US adopters can adopt children elsewhere other than Russia, and likewise Russia hopefully can open their doors widely for other nations to pick up where the US left off.

I can see why you feel this way. 

[mendeleyev]

Thanks to Rubicon for the invitation to visit this topic. From the perspective of adoptions it's been nothing less than an evolution over time, both for the popularity of Western adoptions of Russian/Ukrainian children, and of local attitudes about children being adopted by foreign parents. Many excellent comments have been offered in this thread from Shadow to Blues Fairy to Dave Neely, to Faux Pax and others.

Early in the thread while skimming towards this page, someone early on recommended the movie called "The Italian." That is an excellent suggestion for understanding the background for context on how we got from there--to here. To be sure, the film's ending is a fairy tale dream come true for the little boy who is reunited with his birth mother. But in reality that ending was, is, and will be a pipe dream for most children in an orphanage. That said, is a prime reason why at first Russians were very accepting and even grateful, at first, for kindhearted Western parents who came to the FSU for adoptions.

I can remember a heartbreaking scene from the early days of the new post Soviet period when boarding an Aeroflot flight bound from Moscow to Los Angeles. Those were confusing times and the old Soviet bureaucratic ways remained firmly in place. I was at the end of the line and only needed to check my bags and move on to passport control. At the desk ahead of me was an American couple with a little Russian girl and for some reason the lady at check-in was not satisfied with the paperwork, specifically with an issue regarding the father’s signature allowing the child to leave the country.

This was a legal adoption, not a child coming along with a K visa bride, and so a Russian court had technically dealt with that legal hurdle already. But not for the lady at the check-in desk. Eventually the discussion was joined by a customs official, an Aeroflot manager and someone called in as an interpreter. Eventually I was directed to another desk and was the last one to board the plane. The couple and the child never made it on the flight.

FSU adoptions have always relied on a combination of diligent effort, expense, time, multiple trips, luck and sometimes a bribe or two along the way. The days of bribing someone are diminishing but its always a daunting experience and a wonder that some families have adopted not just one, but in some cases, several FSU orphans.

Most Westerners are goodhearted people as are most Russians and Ukrainians. Several years ago I wrote a story based on my experience in collecting football soccer equipment and taking it to Kyiv. I had spent some time as volunteer producer of the weekly English language broadcast of the Kyiv Symphony Orchestra and as a charity; they were sponsoring two Kyiv oblast (region) orphanages. In just a few weeks time a large amount of uniforms, balls, air pumps, knee pads, etc, had been collected from Arkansas, Oklahoma, Tennessee and back to Arizona before flying to Kyiv.

In the earlier days after the breakup of the FSU, Russians (and Ukrainians, Moldavians, etc) were genuinely grateful for Western couples that came to adopt. Even in the first Putin term the practice was met with approval by most. By the time the second Putin term came around some adjustments in outlook had been made by the Russian government. That adjustment was really economic but swept into almost any area touching on American influence in/on Russia. President Putin, correctly in many respects, felt it necessary to stem the tide not of capital, but of asset ownership, out of Russia and into hands in the West. The great Russian “sell off” of equity assets from factories to broadcast facilities to oil reserves had been dealt for pennies on the dollar, enriching some in Russia, but in reality robbing Russia of ownership of it's future production capability.

And so began the great anti-American campaign led by Kremlin influenced media. Russia is to Eastern Europe what the USA is to North and South America and so the changes in attitude began to be reflected in most of the “near abroad” as well, save Ukraine, which continued it's fascination with the West.

Three things primarily began to catch the backlash:
First, the flight of asset ownership.
Second, the flight of brides to the West.
Third, the flight of orphans to the West.

Some of you may remember those early days when nationalist youth would slap bumper stickers on the walls and ceiling of Metro wagons just before debarking a train which would read (in Russian) that “Russia is not America and America is not Russia.”

Just a comment or two on the bride flight if you will. While we might consider the ladies as “smokinhotkova’s” as my friend Manny often says, to most Russians those are a combination of Russia's future survival and as part of the brain trust. To the largest country in the world (1/6 of the Earth's surface) with only 150-160 million in population and a radical Muslim populace with birth rates 4-5 times that of ethnic Russians, the flight of fertile females of childbearing age is a serious problem.

Additionally, the Soviet Union leveled the playing field for women's work rights decades prior due to shortages in the available labour pool and it has been common for women to hold important positions necessary in society, so the flight of young women is a brain drain issue as well. The government programs offering cash for families with new births to the onslaught of advertising on everything from electronic media and broadcast to street billboards and underground Metro ads, Russia is pushing the idea that to have children is patriotic and each mother giving birth is a way to elevate Russia back into greatness on the world stage.

Which brings us to orphan flight. While the care that 99.9% of these adopted orphans is likely far superior to the care they had previously received, not to mention the positive change in hope for a decent future, as Russia has successfully organized and continued to grow its economy, the orphan flight has become a public relations issue. It is a sign of a third world country status, not that of a world player, when folks from other parts of the globe swoop in to rescue your unwanted children.

So just as the media had at first attacked Western asset flight, then bride flight (which still continues in Russian media), now there is a much higher level of attack on orphan flight. Same themes--mostly anti-American in nature. To be sure the stories of this lady and her child abusive parenting tactics are not only legitimate news headlines, but also advertising fodder.

What will we see in the future on this front? Probably more of the same anti-Western messages in local media. Russia is making serious efforts to modernize orphanage life and it was interesting that just this past Christmas, President Medvedev and his wife Svetlana spent their holiday out of Moscow in Ivanovo including an afternoon/evening at one of the orphanages there. Under Medvedev the budgets for orphan care have increased substantially. Story link: http://russianreport.wordpress.com/2011/01/12/russian-president-medvedev-spends-christmas-in-ivanovo/

The long-term attitudes will depend on who is in power. Vladimir Putin sees America and the West as a necessary but unwanted alliance to be used only when needed and limited in influence at every turn. Dmitry Medvedev however sees America and the West as an equal partner, the emphasis on the word equal and so the practice of Westerners adopting Russian children is something to tolerate in the near term and end as soon as reasonably possible. It's a subtle but important difference.

[Maxx2]

Informative post mendeleyev. Thank you.

[BC]

http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/MultiYearTableXIII.pdf
After a peak in 2003, interesting to see a decline of adoptions from countries 'on the rise' economically speaking.

Trend from China and RU quite similar - halved, from Ukraine and South Korea stable and places like Ethiopia on the rise to be one of the top origin countries.  Guatemala also had a boom since 2003 but seems to have dropped off dramatically.

Overall, the total adoptions to the US are half that of peak years.

In any case I do see a correlation between economy and adoptions, but looking deeper also a correlation between the number of adoptions and Hague / Non-Hague countries (usually a drop).  China's agreement came into effect in 2006 and since then adoption numbers halved. Did not dig too awful deep but it seems that the vast majority, 3/4 are adopted from Non-Hague countries or those that have not ratified.  I do think that 'easier, softer way' is a driving factor for many prospective parents who of course would like to adopt quickly and at the least cost.

Some interesting info here:
http://ouradopt.com/adoption-blog/jul-2010/angelaw/international-adoption-statistics-2009

mendeleyev's report is encouraging and do hope increasing numbers of orphans are able to find homes in RU.

[Shadow]

excellent post by mendeleyev, and it confirms many things written here by all posters, without getting in to the emotions.

[ECOCKS]

Thanks for the analysis and forward-looking perspective offered up Mendy. Your observation that politics and positioning color this issue are right on and that second/third world inferiority complex is something which is worth remembering when considering why any of the European and FSU countries/citizens have certain reactions to things.

[mendeleyev]

Thanks for your comments and I enjoyed reading the many excellent comments that have been contributed to this important topic.

[Rubicon]

Thanks for your comments and I enjoyed reading the many excellent comments that have been contributed to this important topic.

I was away for a few days--let me add mine.  Thanks to Mendeleyev for a very excellent post, as always.  the subject really needed some perspective and historical context and you provided it.  I have had a good feeling about President Medvedev for awhile, and I was very happy to see the photos of he and his wife visiting the orphanage in Ivanovo, and the mention that he planned to increase the budget for orphanages.

a little up thread I posted a video from the American charity "loves bridge".  I am wondering, what is your opinion and thoughts about foreign missionaries and charities trying to help street children and orphans in Russia??  in part two of loves bridge (not posted yet) she states that the Russian government wanted to copy some of their methods.  what are your opinions and thoughts about this, Mendeleyev??

[GQBlues]

a little up thread I posted a video from the American charity "loves bridge".  I am wondering, what is your opinion and thoughts about foreign missionaries and charities trying to help street children and orphans in Russia??  in part two of loves bridge (not posted yet) she states that the Russian government wanted to copy some of their methods.  what are your opinions and thoughts about this, Mendeleyev??

There are 2 that I'm personally aware of and the Lawrd ponders now if that was ever wise on my part...time for some changes...KidSave.org and The Harbor are the 2 I knew about.

Manute Bol's foundation is likely the better way to go, all things considered.

As for Russian authorities, they're demanding a $2,500.00/mo child support from the Tennessee woman who returned the orphan boy back to Russia last year. $2,500.00/mo, LOL. Oh What a wonderful world we live in.

That is pretty funny....

http://www.ethicanet.org/russia-demands-money-for-returned-adoptee-tn-woman-fights-claim

[Rubicon]

There are 2 that I'm personally aware of and the Lawrd ponders now if that was ever wise on my part...time for some changes...KidSave.org and The Harbor are the 2 I knew about.

Manute Bol's foundation is likely the better way to go, all things considered.

As for Russian authorities, they're demanding a $2,500.00/mo child support from the Tennessee woman who returned the orphan boy back to Russia last year. $2,500.00/mo, LOL. Oh What a wonderful world we live in.

That is pretty funny....

http://www.ethicanet.org/russia-demands-money-for-returned-adoptee-tn-woman-fights-claim

$2,500.00 per month seems pretty steep; yet she was very wrong to send that boy back to Russia.  she should have sought professional counseling and told the state child care workers in her state that she could not handle the boy; could they find a better home for him.  wrong for the boy and very bad for relations with Russia.

[mendeleyev]

a little up thread I posted a video from the American charity "loves bridge".  I am wondering, what is your opinion and thoughts about foreign missionaries and charities trying to help street children and orphans in Russia??  in part two of loves bridge (not posted yet) she states that the Russian government wanted to copy some of their methods.  what are your opinions and thoughts about this, Mendeleyev??

I will answer to the best of my ability but please understand that when it comes to the question of foreign missionaries, I'm not unbiased. Although having grown up in the Presbyterian tradition and studied theology in an Evangelical Seminary after a University journalism degree, I'm deliberately and happily Orthodox and that of course will influence how I view this question. Perhaps at any rate it would be best at the start to separate the two issues of charities and of foreign missionaries.

The work of charities seems to be the main focus of this thread so I'll attempt to answer the religious theme first and then give more time to the subject of charities operating today in the FSU.

Foreign Missionaries: In this context the history is concurrent for Russia and Ukraine as both were member states of the Soviet Union.

During the Soviet period the church was largely underground. Due to mounting pressure from the West, Moscow allowed a limited number of groups across the CCCP to register for official recognition (therefore exempt from some forms of persecution). As the Kremlin was under the misguided impression that most Christians in the USA & Canada were "Baptists" the practice began for all minority groups, anyone from Lutheran to Jehovah's Witness, to apply for registration as "Baptist." It worked for some groups, but frequently surprised visiting Baptists from the West who upon arrival were often shocked to learn that their "Baptist" brothers weren't really that close to being brothers, after all.

In 1989 the Mikhail Gorbachev policies of perestroika and glasnost (openness) allowed protestant missionaries to enter the Soviet Union. This was a welcome relief to existing protestant minorities as a pipeline of financial and moral support, outside recognition, theological education and evangelism.

Later, what had been a protestant infusion opened the way to all sorts of non-mainstream religious groups as well. I'm sure that some of you may remember a time when it was almost impossible to exit a Metro station without being handed a pamplet by one of a seeming thousand religious groups. Most of those specific types of public literature distributions have been outlawed.

The Keston News Service has reported that a significant number of foreign missionaries have been expelled from Russia—often by revoking an existing visa or by rejecting visa renewals. Some foreign missionaries report restrictions and harrassment in their current activities, the most common frustration being in finding a meeting place acceptable to local police authorities.

While technically there is no state church according to the constitution of the Russian Federation, there are 3 historic faiths which in real practice enjoy protection by the state: Orthodoxy, Islam and the Jewish/Hebrew faith. Most of the Jewish faith might however question the “protection” they’ve received over the centuries. Like their Protestant counterparts, Roman Catholics are a clear minority inside Russia.

Ukraine, in which even the Orthodox community is split into 3 different competing jurisdictions, has traditionally been more open but that too may be subject to change. Ukraine has a much larger Roman Catholic representation due to the “Uniate” churches, a former Orthodox Church now loyal to the Pope was formed when the Ukrainian Catholic Church was united with Rome in 1596 by the King of Poland who ruled Ukraine at the time. Often in the West they are called Byzantine Catholic or Greek Catholic churches. These Eastern Catholic Churches are under authority of the See of Rome, yet retain their distinctive Orthodox rites, laws and customs, and retain a few theological differences with most mainstream Roman Catholics.

In comparison, Ukraine is somewhat more “plural” than Russia when in comes to religious activity although the Orthodox faith enjoys a large majority.

[mendeleyev]

a little up thread I posted a video from the American charity "loves bridge".  I am wondering, what is your opinion and thoughts about foreign missionaries and charities trying to help street children and orphans in Russia??  in part two of loves bridge (not posted yet) she states that the Russian government wanted to copy some of their methods.  what are your opinions and thoughts about this, Mendeleyev??

Foreign charities: Both Russia and Ukraine would not object to learning from good charity practices in the West today as they have much to learn. In Soviet times, the state did everything and anything resembling “competition” with the state was ruthlessly crushed. The few churches allowed to remain open were actively prohibited from doing acts of benevolence; even education was off limits to religious groups.

I had mentioned previously of work as volunteer broadcast producer with the Kyiv Symphony Orchestra. Not long after Roger and Diane McMurrin traveled to Kyiv to salvage a disbanded Soviet era group, I was privileged to be a part of that effort at least in a small way. Over the years the amazing rebirth has resulted in a world class Orchestra that has been raised from the ashes and breathing new life with recordings, broadcasts, tours and concerts. From those efforts came the sponsorship of orphanages, a big brothers/big sisters program, an on-going food delivery to elderly senior widows, and two successful medical charities (a free clinic and the other a nursing training centre) that have grown to the point of local independence.

Although no longer as active in that group, I hold it in high esteem and am grateful for the staggering successes that despite so many odds have been achieved. Likewise there are other very good charities that have come to the FSU from the West and done a great service.

There are many other excellent charitable groups in the FSU, although the political climate has led more to establish their efforts in Ukraine rather than Russia and this really has to do with windows of opportunity. Of course the independence movement from the old Soviet system was seen foremost in Russia from the eyes of the world and President Boris Yeltsin was very receptive to outside assistance. However it wasn't long before power had been ceded to Vladimir Putin and those windows of opportunity began to close.

To understand this climate one must remember Mr. Putin's background. As a young man in the Soviet Union he was deeply devoted to the ideals of, and highly motivated to be a part of, the Soviet centralized system. He first volunteered by literally knocking on the KGB HQ doors and was promptly told to get an education and then come back later. That action was bold. In those days many residents of Leningrad (St Petersburg) pretended not to know where the KGB was, much less striding thru the entrance in search of not just any job, but one of future importance. He was watched from that point forward and quickly recruited upon his University graduation just prior to entering law school.

Even though spending time as a "democrat" during the lead up days prior to and just after the breakup of the CCCP, Mr. Putin has consistently lamented the demise of the Soviet Union and has felt driven to re-create a sphere of influence in the region with Russia at the centre. As regards to outside charities (and NGOs—non governmental organizations) he understands the principle that if you feed from the milk of a mother other than your own, at some point you are beholden to the mother who possesses that milk, hence Russia's hesitancy to cooperate smoothly with either charitable, religious, or political groups arriving at Russia's doorsteps.

So with the reality of a new and more pro-Russian regime in Kyiv, the question will become as to whether Ukraine will adopt a more “Russian” approach in it’s tolerance for outside involvement or are the existing groups sufficiently entrenched and accepted to remain as they have been allowed to function?

If the crackdown on journalism and opposition political groups may serve as an accurate gauge, one might argue that challenges may come to these groups in the not too distant future. But on the other hand, the attitude of the average Ukrainian could prove to be more tolerant than a typical Russian, and the force of popular opinion might serve to protect existing institutions.

Some say that it is too early in the Yanukovich administration to tell. But is it really too early? In a meeting in Kyiv (July 2, 2010), Secretary of State Hillary Clinton felt compelled to address issues of freedom of the press and right of citizens to assemble with Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kostyantyn Gryshchenko. Those aren’t idle issues, and many of us can easily recall the Leonid Kuchma years, during which current President Viktor Yanukovich served as Prime Minister. Those were years of fear for members of an independent media and the political opposition. Just the number of fatal car “accidents” in remote places with no witnesses for journalists and political rivals placed Ukraine in the top grouping of just about “watch list” out there at the time.

If any form of oppression returns, and there is growing concern about it both in the West and in Ukraine internally, then restrictions on function and movement could hamper the usefulness of these groups operating inside Ukraine.

While it can be easily understood that the activities of charities and religious organizations are often intertwined, it is easier for any government to regulate and direct the functions of a charity because of the scrutiny of the outside world is more focused on freedom of religion. That being said, some groups which combine missions of charity and faith may find restrictions on one activity will indirectly but most certainly impact their related mission.

[SANDRO43]

robbing Russia of ownership of it's future production capability... which continued it's fascination with the West.

Tsk, tsk...from a journalist...it's a possessive adjective (its), not a verb .

[mendeleyev]

Don't tell anyone! 

[BC]

Don't tell anyone! 

If that's all Sandro could find I give three cheers and kudo's  or is it kudos? LOL

Even without Sandro's ability I've found several reports on sites like CNN with very obvious grammatical errors, reported them and they were corrected.

I do enjoy your balanced views. That you state possible bias on the subject is admirable.

Keep it coming.

[Rubicon]

This is a very late addition to this thread and perhaps not totally on topic, but I wonder how many people have seen the film "Orphan".  Wow!!  That movie scared the heck out of me.  Really creepy stuff.  Anyone who has seen that film would really think twice about adopting an orphan from Eastern Europe.