Anti-USA propaganda ? Or just plain sick...

[mrs.Shadow]

Go back and read what I wrote...if that is too difficult for you I will reiterate that America would be insensed (outraged, whatever) as any nation would and should be.

I see that for you also difficult to answer my simple question. So go back and read what I wrote...

[JR]

Look Mrs. Shadow, your position is preposterous: you want America to fix Russia's problem. It is Russia that is allowing foreigners who are unfit to adopt it's citizens!!!! You hear about this because American's are very open about our mistakes and we try to fix them. A lot of other nameless nations simply rely "We don't have problems" or sensor the news so they don't look bad.

[mrs.Shadow]

But, they can control with whom inside their borders that they place children. I've hesitated even posting in this thread because the rhetoric is fueled by emotion and no logic. The problem here is abused children and for those who think it is an "American problem" should remove their collective heads from their rectum. Child abuse is just plain sick and it knows no borders.

Yes but child abuse also does not come from nothing, and that is not just "wrong parents".
If, as i understood, Americans come to Russia to adopt a child cos its cheap and white, then they should first think, do they really need to adopt a child.

Why everyone is afraid to tell the word "go shopping"? And this is exactly what do a lot of "parents".

If people go in their own country to adopt a child, its normal, if they go to another country - it already needs to be checked much more strict. Because after all those reasons I do not see the one - to give a child happy and lovely parents. And for that you do not need to cross the board.

And Russians cannot control "parents" from America, as they have no connections to check them out, right what Russian side suggests... And that shows exact that Russians see - it is not only American problem that should be solved.

[mrs.Shadow]

Look Mrs. Shadow, your position is preposterous: you want America to fix Russia's problem. It is Russia that is allowing foreigners who are unfit to adopt it's citizens!!!! You hear about this because American's are very open about our mistakes and we try to fix them. A lot of other nameless nations simply rely "We don't have problems" or sensor the news so they don't look bad.

That is exactly what I am suggesting, let Russia disallow adoption until Americans can not just talk about their problems but fix them too.

[Handycam72]

You hear about this because American's are very open about our mistakes and we try to fix them.

I think some around the world, might disagree with such a statement.

[ECOCKS]

Look Mrs. Shadow, your position is preposterous: you want America to fix Russia's problem. It is Russia that is allowing foreigners who are unfit to adopt it's citizens!!!! You hear about this because American's are very open about our mistakes and we try to fix them. A lot of other nameless nations simply rely "We don't have problems" or sensor the news so they don't look bad.

It's the price we pay for a free press and freedom JR. The censoring and deliberate avoidance of publishing certain news is common around the globe and few realize that they are simplu being kept in ignorance by their leadership.

[JR]

Yes but child abuse also does not come from nothing, and that is not just "wrong parents".
If, as i understood, Americans come to Russia to adopt a child cos its cheap and white, then they should first think, do they really need to adopt a child.

Why everyone is afraid to tell the word "go shopping"? And this is exactly what do a lot of "parents".

If people go in their own country to adopt a child, its normal, if they go to another country - it already needs to be checked much more strict. Because after all those reasons I do not see the one - to give a child happy and lovely parents. And for that you do not need to cross the board.

And Russians cannot control "parents" from America, as they have no connections to check them out, right what Russian side suggests... And that shows exact that Russians see - it is not only American problem that should be solved.

Again, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. You are the type of person who would open the doors of the prison and let everyone go because there "might" be an innocent person inside.

"Go shopping?" Who opened the boutique?

[JR]

That is exactly what I am suggesting, let Russia disallow adoption until Americans can not just talk about their problems but fix them too.

And you still haven't answered my question about the children in the Beslan School massacre. Did you cry for them? Did you demand all schools to stop until the problem is fixed?

What about the bomb in DMO today? Did you cry for them? 32 people dead and hundreds wounded, maybe some children? Did you cry? I am sure you didn't. Will you demand Russia stop all travel until the problem is fixed?

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/news/984039.html

Hmmmm?

[Handycam72]

It's the price we pay for a free press and freedom JR. The censoring and deliberate avoidance of publishing certain news is common around the globe and few realize that they are simplu being kept in ignorance by their leadership.

Are you including the press of the USA in your statement?
The censoring and deliberate avoidance of publishing certain news is common around the globe

or is the USA the only country in the world that can be considered the only true free nation?

[SMS60]

pffttt

Of course its not proper treatment of a child. But to use it as propaganda against the US is typical of the world.

Weather its a country, business, organization, or individual, certain groups of people will always find the bad and never acknowledge anything good. Basic human nature. Criticizing or making something out as evil probally makes them feel better.

When I hear stories like this I always wish the US would withdraw from the rest of the world. Starting with shutting down the UN and escorting all the officials to passport control then on to planes to take them home.

Start taking care of the homefront and the heck with the rest of the world. Then we wouldnt have to worry about these nickel dime issues.

I think the world would look different in a few years. Would it be for the better? I dont know or dont care especially with the bashing you hear now days.

[Boethius]

 It's up to domestic authorities? So a country who allows the adoption of their own citizens can hand them over to anyone and the country of where the child will reside has the onus?

Yes, they are the ones who control home studies.  Russians are allowing adoptions on the assumption the home studies provided by adoption agencies have screened applicants who are not suitable.  That's not, uniformly, the case.

Boethuis, in the interest of disclosure, I noticed you posted 15 -20 cases of abuse of Russian children and all of them in America. Could you not find incidents in other countries or incidents of happy, warm and fuzzies in America? Or are we to assume from your post that all Russian kids adopted into American homes are abused?

No, I noted initially that the majority of Russian children who are adopted are not abused.  And I couldn't find any incidents elsewhere of FSU children adopted who were murdered.  I did find, in one Russian paper, a description of a Russian child adopted by a German couple who was removed from his home.  Apparently, other parents noticed that the lunch he was bringing to school was inadequate (enough food, just not viewed as "good enough") and reported the parents to authorities.

I think we would agree that more needs to be done to prevent such abuses. Apparently, we disagree that just America should be the only country to make changes in thier process as America is the only country with international child abuses

I never stated the US should be the only country making changes.  But they are the "first line", because home studies are done by third parties in the U.S., not Russia.

If, as i understood, Americans come to Russia to adopt a child cos its cheap and white, then they should first think, do they really need to adopt a child.

I know that isn't true.  Most Americans who are adopting FSU children do so because they want to give those children a better life.  There are many Americans who adopt teens who otherwise would end up on the streets once they aged out of Russian/Ukrainian orphanages.  Often, it is church groups who have missions in the FSU who spread the word of children living in appalling conditions in orphanages, and those parents adopt from the heart, for no other reason.  And, despite the stories I linked above and my view that one dead child is too many, there have been over 40,000 Russian children adopted by Americans and, obviously, most are not abused.

Start taking care of the homefront and the heck with the rest of the world. Then we wouldnt have to worry about these nickel dime issues.

Fifteen dead children is a "nickel and dime" issue???

[JR]

I think some around the world, might disagree with such a statement.

You'll never get the entire world to agree on anything, even that the world is round. Thats why we have wars, to sort out those little disagreements.

[GQBlues]

Yes, as Boethius says, you can't prevent the wrong people from giving birth but you can try to prevent the wrong people from adopting. I really don't get what the fuss is about; the more checks and controls the better and if that puts someone off from adopting then they shouldn't be let anywhere near a kid and all the responsibilities and hassles that entails.

...and considering the very strict adoption regulations Norway have, accoding to you, it seem rather obvious considering a huge number of Norway's children are sexually abused each year suggests your system ain't exactly enviable. Your nation's Asian persuasion is rather suspicious at this point.

5% and they believe that number is just the tip of the iceberg. LOL. And here I thought children in Norway are kept indoors because of the weather  

But no surprises for the overly defensive response from you and your US of A compatriots.

I thought folks were just putting things in perspectives - 'national pride' and all that good stuff, remember?

Once again, child abuse is just plain wrong. Biological or adopted.

Actually no, Russia is not a relatively rich nation.

Please at your leisure kindly remind the G8 committee that according to you Russia isn't qualified to participate.

Why?  Because of alcohol and drug abuse, which are huge problems.  You can't destroy the soul of a nation - abuse and kill it citizens with impunity - for 70 odd years, and expect the destruction that entails to a society, and most individuals therein, to turn around overnight.  It will take generations.

Then it easily suggest to me that Russians have a lot of work to do fixing their social problems instead of watching shock TV, don't you agree?

Find the a way to curb abuse of children, period. We all live in glass houses and if folks keep ignoring the real problems WITHIN their respective borders, then foreign adoption doesn't stand much of a chance for a future for many of these kids.

[SMS60]

Fifteen dead children is a "nickel and dime" issue???

Yelp, in the big picture its a spec of sand on the beach.

[JR]

Fifteen dead children is a "nickel and dime" issue???

How many Russian children died of abuse at the hands of Russian parents during the same time period? What did you have to say about that?

What about the ten thousand children that die each and every day in Africa? Do you care about this? Do you care? Do you demand action?

What if those same children died in the US? I believe you'd scream bloody murder but because the US isn't involed you are silent.....

[Blues Fairy]

That is why they run to Russia to adopt a child. There are a lot of white children, can be easy documentation, just pay the money (suggest a bribery, cos NOBODY forces you to bribe anyone in Russia, by such way the exact bribery creators)

Mrs Shadow I am simply speechless at your total ignorance about how the Russian bureaucracy operates.  Which part of "HAD TO pay the bribes" made you conclude that those parents willingly and enthusiastically suggested money to the Russian officials, moreover, specifically "ran to Russia to adopt a child" because such an opportunity was available?

If this is not anti-American propaganda I don't know what is.     

[Boethius]

How many Russian children died of abuse at the hands of Russian parents during the same time period? What did you have to say about that?

What about the ten thousand children that die each and every day in Africa? Do you care about this? Do you care? Do you demand action?

What if those same children died in the US? I believe you'd scream bloody murder but because the US isn't involed you are silent.....

Of course I care.  But most African children who are starving are the victims of war or AIDS.  Can I demand action of failed state governments?  No.  But I do support children to help them, and their villages, cope.  And I'd suggest everyone here to so too, for the cost of a cup of coffee each day.

As for my silence, we are discussing this particular issue, so that's what my comments are directed at.

Finally, as an American, do you really wish to make comparisons with failed African states or a semi autocratic country mired in corruption and dysfunction?  Shouldn't you aspire to be more?

[SFandEE]

I see the Russian people looking at this process a potential for good.  Any hyperbole or anti-American propaganda is not as off-putting to me as the facts in this concern as it relates to both nations.

Perhaps they can address the issues that exist within their own nation.  Perhaps one of the ways to start will be to create a standard that is too difficult for adopting parents from the US to meet.  I expect it is possible for Russia and Russians to better meet the needs of orphaned children.  It is a relatively new government with more power to control these type of concerns within its' own borders than outside.  Once a child leaves its' borders it is relying on other governments.

I see this thread coming down to what is good enough.  I guess I am cheering for Russians to find a better solution within their own culture based on the current facts of what is happening to children that are adopted away from Russia to other nations.  A better Russia in this area is better for everyone.  I do not see hyperbole or Anti-American propaganda, nor have I been persuaded that the benchmark of good enough in the US is good enough for orphaned Russian children.  Neither solution is good enough now.  Hopefully the Russians can find a better one--I don't think Americans are motivated enough to do the work and spend the money to fix it on their end.  Nor are they really in a position to do so--last time I checked expenses in social areas such as child protective services and child care are extravagances on the cutting block.

[Ade]

...and considering the very strict adoption regulations Norway have, accoding to you, it seem rather obvious considering a huge number of Norway's children are sexually abused each year suggests your system ain't exactly enviable. Your nation's Asian persuasion is rather suspicious at this point.

5% and they believe that number is just the tip of the iceberg. LOL. And here I thought children in Norway are kept indoors because of the weather  

I thought folks were just putting things in perspectives - 'national pride' and all that good stuff, remember?

Once again, child abuse is just plain wrong. Biological or adopted.

Please at your leisure kindly remind the G8 committee that according to you Russia isn't qualified to participate.

Then it easily suggest to me that Russians have a lot of work to do fixing their social problems instead of watching shock TV, don't you agree?

Find the a way to curb abuse of children, period. We all live in glass houses and if folks keep ignoring the real problems WITHIN their respective borders, then foreign adoption doesn't stand much of a chance for a future for many of these kids.

Dude, what are you smoking?

This is a thread about foreign adoption and abuse therein. Talking about that does not belittle any other abuse issues. But I guess, as usual, most of the American's here get their hackles up and start to rant irrationally and flail around when their country is criticised. Seriously, it's not a bad thing to look critically at your own country. Really, try it some time, you may be surprised.

[GQBlues]

....and speaking of 'overly defensive response'...now is it coming a bit clearer to you now?

[Shadow]

And you still haven't answered my question about the children in the Beslan School massacre. Did you cry for them? Did you demand all schools to stop until the problem is fixed?

What about the bomb in DMO today? Did you cry for them? 32 people dead and hundreds wounded, maybe some children? Did you cry? I am sure you didn't. Will you demand Russia stop all travel until the problem is fixed?

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/news/984039.html

Hmmmm?

I can tell you with certainty that MrsShadow cried in both cases.

As for stopping travel, if there are any American killed there I guess that America will say "hey it is up to Russia to change security, not our business if someone blows up our people there".

[Shadow]

How many Russian children died of abuse at the hands of Russian parents during the same time period? What did you have to say about that?

What about the ten thousand children that die each and every day in Africa? Do you care about this? Do you care? Do you demand action?

What if those same children died in the US? I believe you'd scream bloody murder but because the US isn't involed you are silent.....

Supposed that your daughter had to go to an orphanage because both you and her mother are gone. Would you find it ok if she was adopted by someone who abused her ?
Shit happens... responsibility is not yours.

[Shadow]

Mrs Shadow I am simply speechless at your total ignorance about how the Russian bureaucracy operates.  Which part of "HAD TO pay the bribes" made you conclude that those parents willingly and enthusiastically suggested money to the Russian officials, moreover, specifically "ran to Russia to adopt a child" because such an opportunity was available?

If this is not anti-American propaganda I don't know what is.     

As long as America keeps telling that you *have* to bribe Russians, they will be waving their walltes at every corner. I think that you are smart enough to know that in Russia you do not *have* to bribe people, however if you want things today (and Americans usually do, if only because of their expensive trips) you have the opportunity.
No Russian official will tell you openly that they want money, they will however suggest a deal is possible. It is your choice to accept or not.

[BC]

I see Bothius raised some ire a few pages back.. many sad stories indeed, not to mention a thread going downhill with accusations and counter accusations.

I still believe roots of the problem lie at the very bottom of this heap, quite unseen and unheard.

Q - Why in the world adopt a kid from halfway around the world?.. aren't there plenty of kids to adopt in the US (or elsewhere for that matter)?

A - Because the kids here are too fat, or the wrong race, or it's less of a hassle, or they are more desperate, or the kids here are too old, or but they look much cuter with those slavic eyes, or more blondes, or they will love me more because I'm able to offer more, or 'maybe it costs the same as adopting here, but I get a vacation on top!, or it's less of a hassle there, or it will make my baby a bit unique!.. from Russia of all places!, or I probably would not be accepted as adoptive parent here, or, or, or... etc etc etc....

Doesn't anyone see the parallels?

Will there one day be an IMBRA for adoptions?

I really don't have the answers, but my 'gut' feeling is that if someone takes the examples Botheus named and really researched, I doubt the majority of the parents involved would have been considered for a domestic adoption.

All I can say is try to prove me wrong.

We all know that the downfall of the SU had a lot of negative effects on their society. Is sad that the kids do end up suffering worst.  I would hope the situation is starting to improve.  I have thought in the past about giving some support to orphans in RU, even a bit sour with myself that I did not take the time during my last trip to investigate a bit..  still haven't a clue where to start or who to trust or where the most help is needed, - and scared of a scam on top of it all.. bet that sounds familiar too..

Can anyone give me some constructive advice and maybe give this thread a chance to have a good purpose and positive result?

[erudite]

I think some around the world, might disagree with such a statement.

/quote]

I am a native born American, in fact some years back some of my ancestors crossed the Ice Age land bridge between Siberia and Alaska.

I DO NOT AGREE THAT AMERICA IS OPEN ABOUT ITS PROBLEMS OR MISTAKES UNLESS THERE IS A SCAPEGOAT STANDING IN THE WINGS READY TO ACCEPT THE BLAME, AMERICAN OR OTHERWISE.  THAT USUALLY DOES NOT HAPPEN IN AMERICAN POLITICS AND CERTAINLY NOT IN GOVERNMENT BUREAURCRACY OR INSTITUTIONS. 

FOR A NATION THAT SPENDS MORE TO PUT PEOPLE IN PRISON AND KEEP THEM THERE THAN IT SPENDS ON EDUCATION WE HAVE A LONG LONG WAY TO GO.