Heading to Odessa...

[Kapitanleutnant]

Greetings all...

50-something guy and I'm going to Odessa this summer on a tour to find that someone special.  First time there but looking forward to seeing it as much as the women of the Ukraine. 

Divorced here with no children living in So. Calif.   Always looking for suggestions with this endeavor.

Kapitanleutnant.

[dbneeley]

I suggest reading this board regarding tours, especially if you aren't yet committed via non-refundable payment of a substantial portion of the fees.

I know of *one* tour company I would use were I looking and thinking of a tour. The large ones I would avoid as a complete waste of time and money...and I am far from alone in that sentiment.

Good luck...

David

[Gator]

Welcome to RWD!   

I'm going to Odessa this summer on a tour to find that someone special.  First time there but looking forward to seeing it as much as the women of the Ukraine. 

I suggest that you lower your goal for a tour from "find that someone special" to "I want to look around and learn more about this endeavor."

Very few men at RWD would suggest a tour unless you have no experience with international travel.  Also, Odessa is a big pond yet saturated with fishermen.  The fine women receive a lot of attention.  I understand many of the serious women are weary of meeting foreigners on a tour and simply don't show up.

If you are not departing until this summer, I suggest that you try to connect and correspond  with a few individual UW now.  There are different agencies which will facilitate this for as little as $100 total. 

Have you paid your deposit for the tour?

To prepare for the tour, you should read the RWD archives on tours.

[GoodOlBoy]

Make sure to check out the RWD 10 Commandments:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=2

Welcome to the forum Kapitanleutnant.

GOB

[ECOCKS]

Some folks enjoy the tours, some don't.

Most guys I know wouldn't.

As has been mentioned, there is lots of info on tours, solo trips, locations and the gals which is covered in the threads here.

Get your expectations set correctly, read the Commandments and get ready for an adventure if you decide to go ahead and go on over.

Best of Luck!

[Forever Optimistic]

Kapitanleutnant, stay with your plan and go on the tour. I myself am going on a Ukraine tour later this year. Something I have observed in advance is, if you followed the dozens of recommendations of what not to do, the negative advice would be so overwhelming that you would never become involved with women overseas. I look forward to your trip report.

[dbneeley]

Kapitanleutnant, stay with your plan and go on the tour. I myself am going on a Ukraine tour later this year. Something I have observed in advance is, if you followed the dozens of recommendations of what not to do, the negative advice would be so overwhelming that you would never become involved with women overseas. I look forward to your trip report.

And how is *your* method working for you?

Experience with the large group tour agencies is overwhelmingly negative, especially within the last few years. Their "socials" often are comprised of pro daters as well as women recruited off the streets with advertising flyers, most looking for a free night out rather than interested seriously in a foreign husband.

There is one small agency that does tours, so far as I know, that has had quite a few satisfied customers. Although I have not gone on their tours, I have met many happily married former clients at four different annual picnics thrown by the owner, Jack Bragg, in the Dallas area. Jack is not without his detractors, but nearly all of those are people who have not dealt with his First Dream agency as clients.

By contrast, finding those who were massively disappointed with the large agency tours is simple, and in numbers that overwhelm those with positive things to say about their experience.

For the same money as a large agency tour, you could hire an individual who would give personal service and aid the process greatly.

However, it's your time and money to waste. I will look forward to your trip report upon returning.

David

[Kapitanleutnant]

Gents..

Thanks for your welcome and the advice.  

I did go on a tour about 15 years ago (Moscow) and honestly, it was the trip of a lifetime not only to see the gorgeous women but the city that had always been a mystery to me.    But, I'm sure the whole game has changed over that time so I found this website and plan to partake once again.    I did meet a lovely young lady last time, brought her over on a fiance visa and mutually decided on the 89th day, it would not work, so put on an Aeroflot flight back home.    

I am a "world traveler" and feel pretty comfortable where I do go and find that common sense prevails and generally keeps me out of trouble.  

I will say I've put down a few hundred for a foot in the door of an AFA/Loveme.com 3 city tour this summer.  Had a hard time selecting Latin America or Ukraine.   I live overseas and am only about a 3 hour flight from the Ukraine.   Logistically, much easier to go there than Latin America.    

Letter writing seems to be a waste as I'm finding out.  Gotta say the videos of the socials from the AFA website seem very enticing and flat out fun.    Curious why the tours get such a bad rap in the threads I read.  

As always, I'm certainly open to other ideas and suggestions regarding individual office visits in the cities of the Ukraine for more one-on-one service vs the tour group mentality.

K

[GQBlues]

50-something guy and I'm going to Odessa this summer on a tour to find that someone special. First time there but looking forward to seeing it as much as the women of the Ukraine. 

Divorced here with no children living in So. Calif.   Always looking for suggestions with this endeavor.

Give the OP a break. He's looking for someone special doesn't necessarily mean he's looking for someone to marry right here and now.

50 and divorced, no kids...why not go on a romance tour to get back on track?

[Faux Pas]

Kapitanleutnant, stay with your plan and go on the tour. I myself am going on a Ukraine tour later this year. Something I have observed in advance is, if you followed the dozens of recommendations of what not to do, the negative advice would be so overwhelming that you would never become involved with women overseas. I look forward to your trip report.

I do find it more than a bit ironic that you are giving someone advice when you haven't even been yourself and have such a difficult time keeping up with your own money. A word to the wise: when dispensing advice, stick with what you know

[Forever Optimistic]

And how is *your* method working for you?

Experience with the large group tour agencies is overwhelmingly negative, especially within the last few years. Their "socials" often are comprised of pro daters as well as women recruited off the streets with advertising flyers, most looking for a free night out rather than interested seriously in a foreign husband.

There is one small agency that does tours, so far as I know, that has had quite a few satisfied customers. Although I have not gone on their tours, I have met many happily married former clients at four different annual picnics thrown by the owner, Jack Bragg, in the Dallas area. Jack is not without his detractors, but nearly all of those are people who have not dealt with his First Dream agency as clients.

By contrast, finding those who were massively disappointed with the large agency tours is simple, and in numbers that overwhelm those with positive things to say about their experience.

For the same money as a large agency tour, you could hire an individual who would give personal service and aid the process greatly.

However, it's your time and money to waste. I will look forward to your trip report upon returning.

David

My method is working extremely well for me.

David, you have a very negative attitude with many assumptions. Don't make assumptions. I never wrote that I would post a trip report.

I have read literally hundreds of stories over the years from men who visited Russia and the Ukraine on their own and were very disappointed. As a matter of fact, my very first chat room discussion on this website was with a guy who went to visit someone and immediately discovered that he was wasting his time.

[Forever Optimistic]

DELETE

[Faux Pas]

DELETE

  Perhaps you should have left your post up there?


I didn't state earlier up there you piss you off and make you angry, just to make you think. If you took offense, I do apologize but, that doesn't change the message. At the risk of sounding equally egotistical

My method is working extremely well for me.

Working real well for sitting on your thumbs at home. As for as actually working for someone else that is going, that is to be determined. Your experience only includes up to the "planning" to go stage does it not?

David, you have a very negative attitude with many assumptions. Don't make assumptions. I never wrote that I would post a trip report.

FO, you seem to have a problem with a man's advice who actually is an American, married to a Ukrainian woman and lives in Ukraine. Be careful here. You aren't qualified hold David's jockstrap in the Ukraine advice area.

I have read literally hundreds of stories over the years from men who visited Russia and the Ukraine on their own and were very disappointed. As a matter of fact, my very first chat room discussion on this website was with a guy who went to visit someone and immediately discovered that he was wasting his time.

You've read hundreds of stories over the years from others. Thousands of such stories are only rumors, nothing more. Many, many guys find this endeavor is just a waste of time and most of those guys have the same problem you do, listening with your mouth.

There's ample experience from people here who have lived and continue to live it. One thing most of us members here "try to do" regularly is pass along good, useful advice to newcomers who seek it. We encourage you to do the same thing once you've lived it. FWIW

[Forever Optimistic]

  Perhaps you should have left your post up there?


I didn't state earlier up there you piss you off and make you angry, just to make you think. If you took offense, I do apologize but, that doesn't change the message. At the risk of sounding equally egotistical

Working real well for sitting on your thumbs at home. As for as actually working for someone else that is going, that is to be determined. Your experience only includes up to the "planning" to go stage does it not?


FO, you seem to have a problem with a man's advice who actually is an American, married to a Ukrainian woman and lives in Ukraine. Be careful here. You aren't qualified hold David's jockstrap in the Ukraine advice area.

You've read hundreds of stories over the years from others. Thousands of such stories are only rumors, nothing more. Many, many guys find this endeavor is just a waste of time and most of those guys have the same problem you do, listening with your mouth.

There's ample experience from people here who have lived and continue to live it. One thing most of us members here "try to do" regularly is pass along good, useful advice to newcomers who seek it. We encourage you to do the same thing once you've lived it. FWIW

The fact is that I have been involved with this endeavor longer than most, if not all, users on this forum Do NOT assume new membership as meaning as new to this activity.

Kapitanleutnant, don't be discouraged by these rude, cranky members, such as Faux Pas. I have read posts from dozens of men like him over the years. They always hang out on these forums and they are quick to comdemn a method that does not conform to their expectations. Enjoy your tour and ignore the naysayers.

[Turboguy]

I have done three big agency tours back in the 2001-2003 era and one of Jack's tours that were mentioned previously by some posters in 2006.  I will admit that if you were saying that you were thinking about it I would join the others with the negative comments.  Since you have it booked, go have a blast and maybe you will meet that special someone. 

The three big agency tours all left me feeling that I had the time of my life and I "thought" I had met someone special.  Unfortunately I made follow up trips.  The tour scened has gone a little downhill since you did the last one.  Women are not in quite as desperate a situation as they were 15 years ago.  Still there are some good women.  Odessa would be my least favorite place to look for one however. 

If you ever want to do another take a hard look at Jack's tours.  They are very different in concept and the chance of good results is much better.   

My own suggestion would be to talk to AFA and see if you can change your destination.  About anyplace else you could pick to go would be better than Odessa however Odessa is a great vacation city. 

Have fun, enjoy your tour and keep us posted how it goes. 

[Kapitanleutnant]

Hey Turbo...

Thanks for your thoughts but am curious why not Odessa?    Have their women become a bit too westernized?

As I look thru the vids of the socials, and the photos of girls from diff cities around the country, seems that the more attractive ones to my eyes seem to be in the out of the way cities like Zap, Poltava, Kharkov and some others I can't even begin to pronounce.   

Also, I saw this First Dream of Jack's and wondered if you would tell me (us) a little about his tour and compare it to the big agency tours you did.

Thanks.

K

[dbneeley]

The fact is that I have been involved with this endeavor longer than most, if not all, users on this forum Do NOT assume new membership as meaning as new to this activity.

Kapitanleutnant, don't be discouraged by these rude, cranky members, such as Faux Pas. I have read posts from dozens of men like him over the years. They always hang out on these forums and they are quick to comdemn a method that does not conform to their expectations. Enjoy your tour and ignore the naysayers.

I am negative to what seems clearly to be bad ideas, and positive to those who are sensible. Sometimes, people who appear to be rushing into situations they may easily come to regret *need* to hear a few words of realism. If all they want is an "attaboy" they have come to the wrong place.

Okay, "experienced one"--tell me, being "involved with this endeavor" can mean many things. So let's ask:

--How many times have you actually been in the FSU, and for what periods of time?

If you haven't been (as others seem to feel is the case)--what qualifies you to give advice to other keyboard Romeos?

I am often startled that people with no direct experience occasionally seem to be full of "good advice" based on various fictions.

If all you have done is to hang around discussion lists and boards over those years, then I would find it hard to believe you are in a very credible position to advise others.

As Turbo said above, he has tried the major tours and advises against them. Of course, if you have the time and money to blow then by all means drive on. Who knows--lightning may strike and you may be one of the few who actually find a worthwhile lady that way.

However, it would be interesting to learn what sort of due diligence you used to decide on the tour for yourself? Did you actually contact anyone who has been on the same tours in the recent past to find out what it was like and whether they thought it was worth the money--or did you merely read the advertising blurbs of the tour company itself?

As for me, as of this past week I have been married for nine years to my Ukrainian wife. My first trip here was in 2000--and for the last several years I have lived here full time in Donetsk.

My standard advice for the newcomer is to find some folks who have been successful at this endeavor and who seem compatible in experience, intellect, personality, and resources to you--and, if their method seems repeatable, to at least start with much the same approach. As you gain experience, then add in your own wrinkles based on experience and what works best for you.

Unfortunately, my approach involved a great deal of luck and thus is not particularly repeatable. However, I had worked on myself for many years to get to the point where I knew what I was looking for and what I could offer to build the kind of relationship I sought. Thus, a fair measure of my "luck" was what I had made myself. However, the other part was that I ran into my wife on my first trip--but had the understanding and the great good fortune to recognize her immediately.

David

[Gator]

The fact is that I have been involved with this endeavor longer than most, if not all, users on this forum Do NOT assume new membership as meaning as new to this activity.

Agree, the substance of a person's posts says far more.  In your case, not much. 

I see in other threads that you are trying to be helpful.  That is good.  Yet, you say so little to  indicate your vast experience.  All we know is that you are a male. In fact, it appears you have never taken a trip to the FSU.

[Turboguy]

Sure, I would be happy to.  

First off the tours I did were European Connections not AFA but the format and weaknesses are similar.  The two main differences with with EC we were assigned an interpreter who was ours for the sesson and with AFA you go grab one from the pool when you need one and EC did thiers in a meeting room where AFA does thiers in a night club which is not important.

With the big agency tours you have 25-30 men in a room with 150 +/- women.  You pick who you want to talk to and basically any woman you want to talk to will talk to you.  Then at the end of the night you pick the one you want to take to dinner and unless they have already made a committment they will always say yes.  There are usually a few free days so you can spend more time with those you really liked.  You have some expeirience so I think that should be about what you remember.

The weakness is this.  Most of the men are on their first tour and are relatively inexperienced with tours and RW.  The women are recruited from newspaper ad's, billboards and sometimes even TV ads.  The real problem is that woman who are serial daters or scammers know there will be a room full of very inexperienced me (you could also use the word suckers).  There will be sincere women in the group but there will also be a lot of women whose goal is to extract money from them.   The more sincere women don't like the concept very well.  They sort of feel like cattle in a cattle auction.  Some of the hot women go from man to man and some of the sincere women may never talk to a single man.  In my three tours I almost always came back thinking I had met the right woman.  Irina from the first tour turned out to be a serial fiancee with lots of men thinking they were her man and sending her money for English lessons etc.   The next tour for me was Lena who managed to get me to spend $ 3500.00  (excluding hotel and air) in 5 days of my follow up business about a thousand or more of which ended up in her pocket.  The third tour the gal had me shopping for $ 400.00 boots within 1 hour of arrival.  I didn't buy them and sent her packing after that day.

Jack's tours are different.  He limits them to 12 men.  His total tour is about a dozen cities and you can do as many or as few as you want.  I did 4 cities.  The women are picked one of two ways.  They either come from one of the smaller agencies that knows each woman or they are invited by the guys.  Most all the woman are serious and not scammers or serial daters.  The women don't stand around like they do at the AFA tours.  They sit for 15-20 minutes at a table that has one man and about 5-6 women.  You talk to each and let your assigned interpreter know which ones you really liked.  After the 15 -20 minutes they blow a whistle and you move to another table with 5-6 women.  That continues until you have met every woman and every woman has met every man.  At the end of the night like the big agencys you pick the one or ones you want to know better and arrange dates.  In between the parties you are meeting women you picked in advance from each of the agencies Jack works with so you are always meeting women.  I was very pleased with Jack's tour and the chances of success are much better.  There is a full trip report on my tour here if you want to learn more.

As far as Odessa goes it just seems from all the things I have read and heard from 6 years as a member here are that there are way to many serial daters there and the chances of meeting a sincere woman are about the worst of anywhere you can go in the FSU.

[Turboguy]

Here is a link to the Trip Report of my FirstDream (Jack Bragg) tour.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2698.0

[Kapitanleutnant]

Thanks turboguy.   Will educate myself with your post

K

[Maxx2]

My standard advice for the newcomer is to find some folks who have been successful at this endeavor

I often quote from dbneeley.

I can add to this and say that it doesn't hurt to listen to those who have failed in this endeavour and are honest enough to admit it. I am one of those. The name "Maxx" has been synonymous with the consequences of failure. This year marks eight years since my fall. I have had time to reflect.

*My advice is listen to the advice of those successful in this endeavour. The ones who genuinely want to help you.
*Ignore the cheerleaders and listen and take note of sensible advice from experienced ones.
*Go about this venture with a plan and a backup plan. You do not want to rely on luck.
*Be careful not to make a decision based on lust, "white knight complex" or a wife need.
*Keep in mind Russia/Ukraine is full of women and each is special in their own way. No need to make a quick decision.
*Make sure you have it in you to be able to walk away if your spidey sense tells you something is wrong.
*Seek advice privately by PM or phone if need be. Not all things should be discussed on the board.

What I can tell you from experience that most here cannot is that choosing the wrong Russian woman and marrying her is one of the biggest errors a man can make in his life.  check out:  http://csiinvestigations.vpweb.com/Marriage-Fraud-101.html

[Rubicon]

I am just curious, why is your screen name that of a German officer??  that is not going to go over very well with Russian/Ukrainian women!!

[Maxx2]

I am just curious, why is your screen name that of a German officer??  that is not going to go over very well with Russian/Ukrainian women!!

Or her grandparents.

[I/O]

K/L: Odessa is a "bed" (pun intended) of hookers and pro daters. There are some nice people there notwithstanding. As for the well of information, Forever Optimistic, been around longer than most here and is still trying to get a gig on a "tour", go figure. Idiots seem to be cheaper these days.