Ukraine/Russian women or Latin women....

[Shostakovich]

I would not use the word 'incapable' here, but this is similar to where my wife and I have come to in a similar conversation.  
She, like BF, does like people smiling in public, although acknowledges that quite a few FSU consider them 'fake,' and she's well aware that not everyone that smiles is a 'friend.'  She also believes that many Americans are not as close to their 'friends' as FSU folk, in that they are instead more acquaintances than real friends, citing some of the examples given like by dbneeley, always aware of, and planning things for friends birthdays or special events.  Overall, I can't fault her conclusions there, and might liken it to those that prefer a small group of very close friends, over a larger group of acquaintances, and those close friendships are important.  

I wonder how many would consider the 'unsmiling FSU' then compare them to bigger cities, such as New York - there as well, you're as unlikely to be smiled at by random strangers, and you do see some of the same 'conclusions' being drawn there as well.

Meanwhile, we smile, laugh and touch every day, go figure.

Ya, incapable is a little too strong but I think that a good share of the people in the FSU do not have a great image of people in the US these days though I am certain they are not so narrow as to be unequivocol.  They consider them to be fat and without sophistry (unsophisticated!).  Otherwise they are pent up pencil-heads - tedious accountants and such.  To live with an open-heart, I've heard this as being something of an ideal for the FSUers, or at least Ukrainians, it is not quite the US way.

But the FSU vs. Latin or Thai discussion has another dimension to it that has not yet been vetted.  While I'd love to travel in South America or Thailand I couldn't consider being seriously involved with the culture.  That is not true of the FSU, whose culture I consider in many ways to be superior to that of the US, though mostly in a 'roots' form.  The culture of most places has not gotten better through the 20th century and, from what I can tell, the 21st does not hold much promise either.

Upthread a comment was made about how those in the FSU are pessimistic and this translates into their lack of social verve on the street.  I'd second that notion.  Prior to my first trip over there I read a brief history of Russia.  It's been one blood bath after another over there with the Kiev-Rus taking sack upon sack from every direction.   Ivan the terrible, the city built on bones and then WWII, whose significance most in the US can in no way appreciate with 29M dead -- an unbelievable statistic, thanks in part to one of their own, old Joe, that great man.  Then the whole Soviet debacle and the troubles following its crash.  I'd say that with a historical momentum like that you'd not be all smiley either.  It also explains Russian Pride since they've needed something to hang their hope on.  But, that's the mix and, unwittingly, it's created something positive too.  I find that the people in the FSU know better how to live in the moment and certainly won't pass on a good time.  That's part of the charm for me. 

[JR]

Second that Shosty: 800 years of serfdom (slavery), about two years of "peace" during that time then communism and what the Russian heritage has brought the average Russian is an unequalled sense of national pride.

If you don't know anything about Russia's heritage do yourself a favor and read up on it.

[Rubicon]

Two World Wars fought on Ukrainian/Russian soil, and 70 years of Communism; it's no surprise that many Russians to not like to smile in public.

[Rubicon]

KapitanLeutnant,

good topic you started here.  hopefully by now you have decided to go to the FSU.  like I wrote before, if you live only 3 hours away, that is a major advantage that many of us here wish we had!!  not to mention that could be a deciding factor for a woman who wants to marry you--she might like being just 3 hours from friends and family.

so, methods you might use:

1.  a tour to Odessa or St. Petersburg with AFA.  if you already made a deposit, you should probably go, just go with a back up plan in order to meet some non agency ladies.
some of the agency women have bad reputations as being pro daters, etc. so be wary of that.  hopefully you are smart enough to know that you should probably date age 28 plus.
most of the scammers tend to be in the 18 to 25 year old range, from what I have read.
Odessa is a large beautiful city with much to see and do, especially pleasant to visit in the summer time.  people from Odessa are famous for having a good sense of humor (remember Yakov Smirnov??)

2.  back up plan for Odessa trip, or other target city.  hire a professional such as Anastasia Ash to help you make a profile in Russian, and post the profile for your target city in Mamba.ru or freerussianpersonals.ru at least 3 or 4 months prior to your trip, in order to generate some genuine (hopefully!!) ladies who wish to meet with an american.  let them know you are coming to their city on such and such a date, and that you wish to meet serious marriage minded women (with a good sense of humor of course).  click on "Top Site" (with the golden star) in the box upper left of this page, or top of this page.  click on banner for Regal Translations, the site for Anastasia Ash.

3.  go on a tour with Jack Bragg, or have him help you plan a tour of your own with assistance from some of his interpretors and apartment rental agents.

4.  write to one or two ladies now, who you like very much (through Elenas Models, AFA, Anastasia, or other such website)  just write two or three letters, and than fly to their city for a two or three day weekend to visit them.  this is how Kievstar met his wife.  see his trip report to Kharkov.

5.  check out Mordinson.  they are fairly expensive, but the price includes ten or fourteen days in their luxury apartment, and airport pickups, and unlimited translations for dates.


well, whatever methods you use, I wish you the best of luck!!

[Turboguy]

Another possibility would be to go ahead to Odessa as planned but to contact some other ladies from parts of Ukraine where the fishing is better and bring one of them to Odessa for a few days.

When I did my big agency tour to Moscow - St Petersburg I was so down on St Petersburg that I did exactly what I suggested.  I brought one of the ladies who I was interested in from another city to St Petersburg so that part of the trip would not be a total bust. 

[Forever Optimistic]

The AFA Odessa trip consists of 3 - 5 cities depending on the chosen schedule. You will have plenty of opportunities to meet women in a few cities. Some guys who go on the AFA tour become so involved in one city that they skip the other cities on the itinerary.

Pro daters exist everywhere, especially here in the USA. The Internet has turned women into endless online browsers always waiting for the next best man to come along. I have had numerous dates with AW who have this mindset. They can never commit, yet they claim they are looking for a long term or monogamous relationship. While overseas try to find someone who does not own a computer! She is less likely to be a pro dater or someone who cannot make up her mind.

[Jumper]

The AFA Odessa trip consists of 3 - 5 cities depending on the chosen schedule. You will have plenty of opportunities to meet women in a few cities. Some guys who go on the AFA tour become so involved in one city that they skip the other cities on the itinerary.

Pro daters exist everywhere, especially here in the USA. The Internet has turned women into endless online browsers always waiting for the next best man to come along. I have had numerous dates with AW who have this mindset. They can never commit, yet they claim they are looking for a long term or monogamous relationship. While overseas try to find someone who does not own a computer! She is less likely to be a pro dater or someone who cannot make up her mind.

Pro daters could be anywhere  sure, but certainly in larger percentage  at  some big social?
If indeed looking for them,I'm just not sure where we could suggest a man find a more concentrated group of them?

Many FSU woman have internet access or computers through their work,
to avoid them because they *might* be  a pro dater,or lack the ability to commit ,
 just doesn't seem sound logic at all to me.

Every attractive woman has choices, and will get hit on often, whether she has a computer or not.
If her mindset is to look for a bigger better deal,that's part of her individual personality and life goals.

Frequent communication is the key to learning about her..
her having the usual tools for that in a long distance situaton,like  internet access, a computer, cell phone, is a bonus,not a detriment in my opinion.

AW with that mindset, would not have it if facebook, match.com etc wasn't a click away?
If that is the fear or perception , then the reality is RW are in general as connected to the net as any AW would be.(unless you went up into babushka  age categories)

[Forever Optimistic]

Pro daters could be anywhere  sure, but certainly in larger percentage  at  some big social?
If indeed looking for them,I'm just not sure where we could suggest a man find a more concentrated group of them?

Not necessarily. If you are paranoid, however, that is what you will perceive -- and probably attract.

Every attractive woman has choices, and will get hit on often, whether she has a computer or not.
If her mindset is to look for a bigger better deal,that's part of her individual personality and life goals.

AW with that mindset, would not have it if facebook, match.com etc wasn't a click away?
If that is the fear or perception , then the reality is RW are in general as connected to the net as any AW would be.(unless you went up into babushka  age categories)

I suggest that you become involved with multiple dating websites and dozens of AW as I have done. From your response it seems you have very little if any experience in this area. I am not trying to reprimand you, so don't get the wrong idea. Just giving advice.

Put in enough effort and you will be able to identify the pro daters and "casual daters" (as they are called). AW pro daters usually have good photos but not necessarily photos that are professionally shot. Most of these pros wear expensive jewelry and premium class makeup which they know well how to apply effectively.

Casual daters are harder to identify. They look average-to-above average. PD's have social climbing as their agenda while CD's merely want a meal and sometimes other small things. CD's use dating as a hobby -- often under the pretense that they want a long term relationship. The CD category is where the majority of AW and RW fall into -- and you DON'T have to attend any social to fall into their trap. The RW who asks for a cell phone and other small gifts can be found in great numbers.

[Forever Optimistic]

Duplicate post.

[Kapitanleutnant]

What a grand thread this is... and full of fantastic thoughts.   As we say in the airline world... "Great CRM useage"   (Crew Resource Management... gathering intel from ALL available sources before making the decision)

I/O, I loved your post a few posts ago.   So true in so many ways....

So after re-reading all the threads this morning, it has occurred to me this one instance I had while dating my RW back in the mid 90's that actually conflicts a bit with my original premise and concurs with most of yours.

My then RW lived in Ekaterinburg (I'll call it EK) in the Ural Mountains... Siberia!   Of course the timing was such that I was going to meet her in her home city in February.....  February in the Siberian Mountains of Russia!   Great thinking Kapitan!  :-)

It was my second visit to Russia after having met her in Moscow.   EK had been off limits to westerners forever as it was a military type operation base there but now it was open.   It was as if I'd stepped into 1945 when I got there!   It was amazing, yet sad, yet amazing... make sense?     My RW's apartment where she lived with her mother was a 1 bedroom place somewhat smallish and somewhat "Soviet" looking.... huge square block apt building with no character in a shade of light faded mint green.   The next day, I recall she was going out to "pay the bills" as they don't have checks (this is 1994... maybe this has changed).   I was flabbergasted when she came out of her room totally dolled up to the hilt.   She looked elegant, wore long sleeved gloves and even had high heels on and lipstick and hair all done up.... just to go out and pay bills.... in February.... in Siberia!!!!   I would go with her to see the city.   Street cars from the 1940's.    Amazing....

That night is what I'm going to tell all you that I had forgotten about and made me realize something here.....
 
That night the whole family/relatives/friends were invited over for what turned out to be the most amazing feast I've ever seen even in my home country during holiday.   It was no holiday at all.   It was because I was there courting their daughter/cousin/friend.    You should have seen this!    All I kept thinking was, "My god, they must have spent their whole month's salary on this spread".   As the wine flowed and even before then, the smiles were all there, the warmth I enjoy was all there, and one of her older cousins who had been in the Soviet army had been eyeing me somewhat closely/suspicously the entire night and after a few glasses of wine/vodka stood up at the table with a big smile and toasted towards me, "Mwee Droogie" (?)"   We are friends".   I had told him earlier in the evening I was in the military in my home country as a pilot and I think thats why he was suspicious of me.   

The rest of the evening was music, singing, dancing, watching videos....   and I still think they spent a whole months' salary for my benefit to welcome me into their arms.    Got to try Borsch soup for the first time as well.   

What I have gotten of both this particular thread and reading other threads here is this....  I have not put down any money for the AFA tour to Odessa yet.   It is a three city 10 day tour with Nikolaev and Kherson.   Honestly, I am now a bit hesitant to attend this due to a number of posts suggesting Odessa/Nikolaev being a bit of a rip with Pro daters in a higher concentration than some other cities.   

I have written several letters and received replies from both UW and Latin Women.    To be honest, I have not written any RW as I mentioned earlier because it seems the Russian tours/agencies are mostly dead these days and the big push is now the Ukraine.   Am I not up to date on this thought? 

I still however think the whole issue of the smile is that the older Russian, who has lived thru the bad times and lived thru the times that there were so many restrictions and hardships will smile much less in a casual chance meeting of someone on the street.   Certainly not the type of smile a used car salesman gives you when  you walk onto his lot.   Everyone knows that's fake.   

Anyways, I enjoy reading the comments here very much and continue to learn from all of your expertise and experience.

K

 

[I/O]

K/L: The Siberians are almost second to none when it comes to hospitality, they're proud of it and justifiably so. Without aiming to raise the hackles of the western Russians and I've met a few notable exceptions, Siberian hospitality is different.

You're probably right about agencies dieing in Russia and Ukraine being more active but you'd be selling yourself short to rule one or the other out IMO. I see your grip on the tour idea has been loosened and I'd encourage that. Frankly, if you've been to Russia a couple of times, I can't imagine why you'd need to use the tour / guide / whatever hand holder you care to name. The game has changed but someone on their metal can still hoe the row I suspect.

As for Yekaterinburg being a step into the 1940's with cars to match, some things have changed, electronic billboards all over, Hummers and Landcruisers with the odd Lexus tossed in and a few stray X6's might be among the differences you'd note but the apartment buildings are not much more exciting. BTW, Eastern Ukraine isn't exactly Vegas lit either.

Oh and...........Forever Optimistic lecturing AJ about experience on an RW forum must go close to the most spectacular display of ignorance I've seen for some time. 

[Forever Optimistic]

What I have gotten of both this particular thread and reading other threads here is this....  I have not put down any money for the AFA tour to Odessa yet.   It is a three city 10 day tour with Nikolaev and Kherson.   Honestly, I am now a bit hesitant to attend this due to a number of posts suggesting Odessa/Nikolaev being a bit of a rip with Pro daters in a higher concentration than some other cities. 

I am going on the Odessa tour later this year. You cannot trust everything you read about cities, agencies, or women in these international marriage forums. If you did that, you would never go anywhere due to all the negative advice.

In my home office closet is an old desktop computer with RW mailing list messages from the mid 1990's. It has many of the same recommendations and negative advice that can be read years later now on this forum. And just like today, back then there were posts from guys who got married and thought they knew it all even though they were no longer dating. There were also messages from guys who had taken several trips, claiming that only one more trip will do it, as they have finally figured out what they needed to know. Some things never change.

The bottom line is what you will find depends mainly on what is already within yourself.

I have written several letters and received replies from both UW and Latin Women.    To be honest, I have not written any RW as I mentioned earlier because it seems the Russian tours/agencies are mostly dead these days and the big push is now the Ukraine.   Am I not up to date on this thought? 

You are right about that. At least two factors ended their business. One was the social and economic change that Russia has had during the past decade. The other factor was the most recent worldwide recession. It not only ended the business of agencies in Russia, but in other countries as international travel declined.

Oh and...........Forever Optimistic lecturing AJ about experience on an RW forum must go close to the most spectacular display of ignorance I've seen for some time. 

I/O, YOUR comment is actually the most spectacular display of ignorance in the longest time. As you see from the above text, I am not at all new to international dating. In fact, I am certain that I have been involved with it longer than most, if not all members in this forum. I just don't waste years of my time writing posts as others do.

[chivo]

I/O, YOUR comment is actually the most spectacular display of ignorance in the longest time. As you see from the above text, I am not at all new to international dating. In fact, I am certain that I have been involved with it longer than most, if not all members in this forum. I just don't waste years of my time writing posts as others do.

He wasn't alluding to your experience with the international dating scene.

Maybe you should take some time to get to know the people who post here better, that's all. And don't underestimate the level of experience on this forum as well. Let's just say we'll give you a mulligan in AJ's case.

Maybe you can enlighten us on your experience with the FSU so we can know you better also. You know how much time have you spent here, when was the last time you were here, your experience with the women, etc. Unless, of course you think you'll be wasting your time.

[Faux Pas]

I have written several letters and received replies from both UW and Latin Women.    To be honest, I have not written any RW as I mentioned earlier because it seems the Russian tours/agencies are mostly dead these days and the big push is now the Ukraine.   Am I not up to date on this thought? 

I still however think the whole issue of the smile is that the older Russian, who has lived thru the bad times and lived thru the times that there were so many restrictions and hardships will smile much less in a casual chance meeting of someone on the street.   Certainly not the type of smile a used car salesman gives you when  you walk onto his lot.   Everyone knows that's fake.   

Anyways, I enjoy reading the comments here very much and continue to learn from all of your expertise and experience.

K

 

I think you'd be wrong. Likely you haven't seen any from the position you've been looking. There are some in Russia but the big business for tours probably is Ukraine. Thus it's getting most of the attention.

Kapitan from your posts here and your prior experience in 94 you don't strike me as a guy that benefit much from or needs a tour. Have you considered just not going on a tour and communicating with women you find interesting? I'd recommend setting aside the tour idea at least temporarily to just communicate directly and see where it leads. It is quite easy enough to do "your own tour".

Just a thought

[Faux Pas]

I/O, YOUR comment is actually the most spectacular display of ignorance in the longest time. As you see from the above text, I am not at all new to international dating. In fact, I am certain that I have been involved with it longer than most, if not all members in this forum. I just don't waste years of my time writing posts as others do.

If you have been in the international dating scene that long, has it ever dawned on you that perhaps, you just ain't any good at it?

[Kapitanleutnant]

Faux Pas...

Thanks for the reply.   

I most certainly have entertained that idea but being that I've been "out of practice" with this stuff, I thought for my first venture back in, that I'd be spoon fed and then as my feet got wetter, maybe go it alone on a later trip.

HOWEVER..... having said that, I think at this juncture with what I've read here, that it would probably be more satisfying to get an apartment, find a local agency (or not.... open to suggestions here!) and essentially just see what transpires.   

The more I read here, the more it appears the solo route is more adventurous... higher highs, but lower lows as well.   

I have vacation in May for about 15 days.   

Honestly my only real concern of going it alone is this:   Wasting days because I don't know how to contact women in the city I go to.  Sure I can use an agency, but some of you suggest using some basic websites which I've copied down.    I just don't want it to be a complete loss of time if that road does not pan out for at least meeting a UW who I'd want to come back and spend some quality time with.   

Cities I hear about in no particular order:

Kiev -  ( I keep thinking this city has been so picked over already that they're pretty much all Pro daters)
Dnepropotrovsk -  (I hear good things about women from this city... might be worth checking out)
Kharkov - (Another city I hear good things about visiting)

I don't think I'll be able to make it to really any more than two cities, but Kiev keeps coming up as a neat place just to see/visit and many things to do with your dates.

K

[ML]

If you have been in the international dating scene that long, has it ever dawned on you that perhaps, you just ain't any good at it?

Not defending anyone or trying to offend anyone; but can't a case be made that such are very good at it?

And if one were to attack a type; what can be said about those who marry the first FSU gal they meet or a gal from a first trip?

[Muzh]

I most certainly have entertained that idea but being that I've been "out of practice" with this stuff, I thought for my first venture back in, that I'd be spoon fed and then as my feet got wetter, maybe go it alone on a later trip.

Mon Kapitan, two suggestions:

1) Talk to Jack.
2) Stick to one city.

[Turboguy]

I am going on the Odessa tour later this year. You cannot trust everything you read about cities, agencies, or women in these international marriage forums. If you did that, you would never go anywhere due to all the negative advice.

Well Forever Optimistic, I am glad you have a lot of experience.  I too made my first trip to the FSU around '94 and used to use the Club Prima, EC and Latin Euro Catalogs as well as Cherry Blossoms and sent a ton of snail mail. 

To be honest and not meaning to be rude your commenting that you are going to be going on the Odessa tour later on this year may strike a few as that you have not learned a lot from your vast amount of experience.   If you said you were going on one of Jack's tours we probably would not feel the same but most think going on a big agency tour and going to Odessa are mostly things done by those who don't have a lot of experience.

Don't take the negative things you might hear too seriously.  I think it will help you to be active on RWD.  When I found this place 6+ years ago I really found out how stupid I was and there is a lot of knowledge here that can help you save time, money and greatly increase your chances of success. 

I do think you will have fun on your Odessa tour.  The big agency tours are fun.  Of course the real objective for many is to meet the woman they want to spend the rest of their life with as I have and I do have strong doubts that you will find that on an AFA tour to Odessa. 

Enjoy your trip, I hope I am wrong about your chances of success.  If you are ever in the mood to do another tour talk to Jack and First Dream.   There is a world of difference.  I have done three big agency tours and one of Jack's and it is night and day.  Most of all, stick around.  There might be times you feel like it's not worth it but believe me, participating at RWD and learning from the mistakes of others is very worth it.   

[Muzh]

I do think you will have fun on your Odessa tour.  The big agency tours are fun.  Of course the real objective for many is to meet the woman they want to spend the rest of their life with as I have and I do have strong doubts that you will find that on an AFA tour to Odessa. 

A lot of easy girls on the tour with no commitment on their minds. <wink, wink>

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas...

Thanks for the reply.   

I most certainly have entertained that idea but being that I've been "out of practice" with this stuff, I thought for my first venture back in, that I'd be spoon fed and then as my feet got wetter, maybe go it alone on a later trip.

HOWEVER..... having said that, I think at this juncture with what I've read here, that it would probably be more satisfying to get an apartment, find a local agency (or not.... open to suggestions here!) and essentially just see what transpires.   

The more I read here, the more it appears the solo route is more adventurous... higher highs, but lower lows as well.   

I have vacation in May for about 15 days.   

Honestly my only real concern of going it alone is this:   Wasting days because I don't know how to contact women in the city I go to.  Sure I can use an agency, but some of you suggest using some basic websites which I've copied down.    I just don't want it to be a complete loss of time if that road does not pan out for at least meeting a UW who I'd want to come back and spend some quality time with.   

Cities I hear about in no particular order:

Kiev -  ( I keep thinking this city has been so picked over already that they're pretty much all Pro daters)
Dnepropotrovsk -  (I hear good things about women from this city... might be worth checking out)
Kharkov - (Another city I hear good things about visiting)

I don't think I'll be able to make it to really any more than two cities, but Kiev keeps coming up as a neat place just to see/visit and many things to do with your dates.

K

Kapitan

It's like riding a bicycle. You haven't really forgotten it and what you have will come back. I do think you are on the right track though. From the sound of it you are a likely WMVM mindset. I would suggest you find a reputable agency in one of the cities that has caught your attention, look over the profiles and focus there in that one city. They will be happy to line you up dates to fill your dance card as much or little as you choose but, write some in advance. You may turn out to be a WOVO. Personally, I wouldn't attempt more than one city for only 15 days. Others have and some even prefer it. I'm just not too pumped on travel.

I'm not trying to steer you or anyone away from a tour. Some guys do well that route. You just strike me as a man that might do better on his own. Tours are a bit pricey, a bit embellished and on their time. IMO, men who invest the time and due diligence own their own seem to have better results.

[Faux Pas]

Not defending anyone or trying to offend anyone; but can't a case be made that such are very good at it?

And if one were to attack a type; what can be said about those who marry the first FSU gal they meet or a gal from a first trip?

Gee ML, I guess that stung a bit huh?  A lot of assumptions can be made from ANY experience. In this particular quest of finding that life partner too much experience or too little can be telling, don't you think? For one to claim as much experience as FO, and yet screaming from the rooftops about it and in the same breath say he's going on an AFA Odessa tour tells a more unique story to me. I call'em like I see'em

[Turboguy]

A lot of easy girls on the tour with no commitment on their minds. <wink, wink>

That wasn't quite what I experienced on my three tours.  I found it to be more women who pretended to be serious virgins who would let you kiss them on the cheek at the end of the day but were really thinking about sharing the contents of your wallet far more than sharing your life. 

[Muzh]

That wasn't quite what I experienced on my three tours.  I found it to be more women who pretended to be serious virgins who would let you kiss them on the cheek at the end of the day but were really thinking about sharing the contents of your wallet far more than sharing your life. 

And how that differs from what I said? 

[Kapitanleutnant]

Faux Pas....

Yep, I would agree with you on the riding the old bicycle analogy.   I think almost all guys will probably have very heightened sensory perceptions and heart rates as they see the very attractive women and I suspect mine will be right up there in the "pegged" mode!!  

So let me throw this out....  if one is using an agency in a city, the big tour companies have offices there.   Let's say I have chosen Kiev (high probability)....  does one use the large tour group offices such as the AFA office there, or say Kievconnections...... OR..... find something in a local newspaper.  

K