Odessa and AnastasiaDate. A Risky Proposition.

[Rubicon]

See, if i go out with someone and he shells out 500 for a dinner (which in my eyes as we already established is a total waste of money), it tells me he does not care about wasting money. So my logic would be, if he doesn't mind totally wasting 500 for 1 hours entertainment, then why wouldn't he spend 2k on something i actually use to look good for him and that i will use for the next 6 months instead of 1 hour?
By the way, 100 won't even get you a good foundation cream, let alone everything else.

He did not spend $500 for dinner, it was closer to $400.  And the key point is that she was NOT even his girlfriend, nor his lover, nor his fiance nor his wife.  And it was not one hour for dinner, it was two or three hours.

If a woman is at all really attractive, she certainly does not need 2K worth of makeup for six months, let alone one year or more.  And you are not correct, you can get a very good foundation cream for a lot less than $100.  If you want to pay ten times the price for a certain name brand, than you are just burning money.  The ingredients inside are all the same, and what is on the inside is what counts, whether talking about makeup or about a woman's character.  This particular woman is like an apple that looks great on the outside, but when you bite into it you realize that it is full of worms and tastes really really bad!!

[Aloe]

I just don't see the relative logic on $500 for dinner for two or three at her place of business translates to $2,000 in self-gift giving at the cosmetics store (kick-backs there too, or at least a generous return policy).  Wish I could understand this logic, because I know you are clever.

She gives the presentation that she is dating for money and gifts.  Is that a good reason to be dating?  Is that the reason she gave for her interest in dating?  Does that translate better into a quality wife or paid companion.  What is she auditioning to be?  A wife or an escort.  She likely doesn't have the ability to move to Western Europe without marriage intentions.

Would it be okay for her to be indulging herself in this manner if she has a Ukrainian boyfriend?

Is her behavior really okay?  Parent approved?  Culture approved?  She could be just a confused girl with a wealthy man that wants her company on dates and rather than give her money is offering $2,000 in creams and body deodorant.

Sf, i already mentioned the way my logic would work in such a situation 500 on dinner = a willing waste of money on his part for 1 hour entertainment, 2k on make-up = something i use to look good for him for the next half a year. What's there to not understand?  Of course my better judgement would stop me from actually doing something like this, if i were considering this guy for a husband. But if she is very immature, i don't see this as something abnormal. I'd say she behaved very normal for an immature person. And when she got scolded for doing something he told her to do in the first place (and confirmed it 3 times upon asking), then she got upset and lost any interest in the guy, if there ever was one, which i am not saying that there was.

[Jumper]

 I see more than a few concentrated on nationality and relative attractiveness
somehow directly relating it to some lesser moral / ethical code or behaviour.

While a beautiful women can get jaded /spoiled or what have you from excessive attention or a given situation in life's inheirent vices,
its hardly specific to the FSU? or to women, and happens in some form to both genders and in most all countries!

and it certainly isn't some pre drawn conclusion some womans  morals or ethics are different by being blessed with attractive genetics, or born in Ukraine.

Seriously folks you are stretching here,and all over the tale of a very young agency girl.For every odessa diva in prada , there are her equals in most any city,,  that would play just as hard and fast.
If this girl was all THAT bad she'd have seen the game and played Neo for a whole lot more and a lot more skillfully.
In my opinion she just never really had anything touch her about him..

Trust that there are young UW with devasting looks that would have turned down many of Neo's exercises .. and if they liked him , would have told him outright or curbed his enthusiasm.Or at the very least established his boundries with tests of thier own if that felt he was so well heeled that he genuinely dint mind spending big.

While it isnt at all hard to find a material girl there,
(certainly imbeded in such an agency at 22yo)
 it isn't hard at all to find one in Neo's home city either?

Lets just suppose that might be exactly why he took this chance in the first place?

[Rubicon]

Convicted RFK killer Sirhan Sirhan says that a woman in a polka dot dress manipulated him to shoot in the pantry at Bobby Kennedy...

manipulation; a device of all women seeking unearned fortune or other things as well...

Okay, probably off topic; but sort of on topic.

[tim 360]

"...she had a UA BF.  The agency and her fiances paid her very well.  These girls may have a job, but they can make alot of money with the agencies."

she had a Ukrainian boyfriend...guess who got to spend all of her money AND sleep with her??

Exactly Ruby.  She played the foreign guys so well, but probably got played herself by BF.   But that girl could play the long con really well.

[Rubicon]

Sf, i already mentioned the way my logic would work in such a situation 500 on dinner = a willing waste of money on his part for 1 hour entertainment, 2k on make-up = something i use to look good for him for the next half a year. What's there to not understand?  Of course my better judgement would stop me from actually doing something like this, if i were considering this guy for a husband. But if she is very immature, i don't see this as something abnormal. I'd say she behaved very normal for an immature person. And when she got scolded for doing something he told her to do in the first place (and confirmed it 3 times upon asking), then she got upset and lost any interest in the guy, if there ever was one, which i am not saying that there was.

Key thing you said here Aloe is that your better judgement would stop you from actually doing something like this, if you were considering him to be your husband.  There must be something you really like about your real husband, because you said that he does not normally buy you chocolates or flowers for special occasions, or just because...

[SFandEE]

Sf, i already mentioned the way my logic would work in such a situation 500 on dinner = a willing waste of money on his part for 1 hour entertainment, 2k on make-up = something i use to look good for him for the next half a year. What's there to not understand? 

Dinner is an experience a memory an opportunity for intimacy and familiarity.  $500 is relatively a lot for Westerners.  I do not know how FSU sees $500 any longer--for you it is too much for replenishing your energy.  I understand this--it could be just as easily done and probably with more healthful food for $5.  This is practical and reasonable.

Even if it were poor judgement on Neo's part it does not rationalize spending $2,000 on make-up, but I guess in order to understand the logic I will have to believe that "a fool and his money are soon parted" is the mantra of dating a Ukrainian program girl.

Your position that it is wasteful to spend $500 on dinner if you look at it is only for energy and nutrition.  I am okay with not accepting the difference of opinion on this matter, just two ways of looking at the same situation.

She should never, even if he told her spend up to $2,000.  Never spent $2,000 on make-up. She should have been insulted and said "I don't know you well enough for such a gift, it is too much and inappropriate.  I am not that kind of girl.  Those girls work at the hotels and Western bars and restaurants.  I am a sincere girl seeking a serious man for a committed relationship."  Just my opinion.

[Aloe]

He did not spend $500 for dinner, it was closer to $400.  And the key point is that she was NOT even his girlfriend, nor his lover, nor his fiance nor his wife.  And it was not one hour for dinner, it was two or three hours.

If a woman is at all really attractive, she certainly does not need 2K worth of makeup for six months, let alone one year or more.  And you are not correct, you can get a very good foundation cream for a lot less than $100.  If you want to pay ten times the price for a certain name brand, than you are just burning money.  The ingredients inside are all the same, and what is on the inside is what counts, whether talking about makeup or about a woman's character.  This particular woman is like an apple that looks great on the outside, but when you bite into it you realize that it is full of worms and tastes really really bad!!

You must have missed my saying on the previous page:

This is a very good point.

Back to the shopping, i think it's wrong to judge somebody's entire character based on one shopping trip. If she stocked up on her make-up for the next half year in one go, it doesn't mean she will spend gazillions on every trip to the store. Some people prefer to buy what they need every month and keep returning every month. Some stock up for half a year in advance and don't set foot in the store for next half year unless they need something small.

Now buying half a year's supply on somebody else's tab who isn't even your boyfriend is a separate topic  

It doesn't matter if it's 1 hour or 10 hours, point is it is a waste of money for one evenings entertainment, while make-up is something that will last for months and that she uses to look good for him.

Maybe there are good creams for less than 100, but i haven't seen any. I am not a make-up nut. All my judgement in that department comes from the make-up they used on me in beauty shops. (Back then i would actually go and get 200 dollar hairstyle+make-up in a beauty shop before a first date with a WM - where is the rofl smiley?) The cheaper ones didn't stay on as well as expensive ones.
 

[The Natural]

Well, as far as I can remember the story, she was the one who decided they had to go to expensive restaurants. So he paid for her meal and kickbacks to others, including taxi rides that were way over-priced. And this somewhat entitles her to go bananas with make-up purchases? No, this is not right in my book and I would have been furious also.

But this whole thing must be viewed in it's proper context. It was a very special objective that Neo wanted to reach.

[Rubicon]

That's right SF, to me an intimate and romantic dinner is much more than just nutrition, it is the ambiance of the restaurant, the special company of a special person and a memory which can last a lifetime.  Makeup is just chemical paint you put on your fact to look different.  not much intimacy or romance there.  

And furthermore, like you said, if she had proper breeding she would have been insulted by the offer of such an expensive present so soon, and would have pointed out that she was a serious girl looking for a long term commitment, not a flash in the pan.

[tim 360]

Seriously folks you are stretching here,and all over the tale of a very young agency girl.For every odessa diva in prada , there are her equals in most any city,,  that would play just as hard and fast.

If this girl was all THAT bad she'd have seen the game and played Neo for a whole lot more and a lot more skillfully.In my opinion she just never really had anything touch her about him..

Trust that there are young UW with devasting looks that would have turned down many of Neo's exercises .. and if they liked him , would have told him outright or curbed his enthusiasm.Or at the very least established his boundries with tests of thier own if that felt he was so well heeled that he genuinely dint mind spending big.

While it isnt at all hard to find a material girl there,
(certainly imbeded in such an agency at 22yo)
 it isn't hard at all to find one in Neo's home city either?

Lets just suppose that might be exactly why he took this chance in the first place?

Correct AJ, with any real experience at playing a guy she would have played Neo different and milked him longer for much more and I see zero evidence of that here.  I was a bit surprised that Neo became so emotionally attached with his experiment subject.  That was not a good idea, but women can do that to a guy for sure.

Face2face this girl seems to have done nothing to lead Neo on.  More like she expected him to give her things and she was ready to take it.  Not condoning her behaviour at all.  He could have said "NO" to her anytime about the pricey restaurants or gifts.  But,  he was trying to see how far her greed went.

[Rubicon]

You must have missed my saying on the previous page:

It doesn't matter if it's 1 hour or 10 hours, point is it is a waste of money for one evenings entertainment, while make-up is something that will last for months and that she uses to look good for him.

Maybe there are good creams for less than 100, but i haven't seen any. I am not a make-up nut. All my judgement in that department comes from the make-up they used on me in beauty shops. (Back then i would actually go and get 200 dollar hairstyle+make-up in a beauty shop before a first date with a WM - where is the rofl smiley?) The cheaper ones didn't stay on as well as expensive ones.
 

Well Aloe it seems that you are the rare bird that does not see the romance and value in going to a very nice restaurant with a romantic ambiance, quality food and quality company.  to me the memory of such an experience is much better and more valuable than makeup.

As to the cost of makeup you can certainly buy quality makeup for a much better price in the US than in Europe or FSU, I know this for fact as I have shopped for it in all three places.

So we will just have to agree to disagree about the value of makeup versus going to a nice restaurant.  The girl, and I do believe she is a girl and not a woman, probably was getting a kickback for taking Neo to an expensive restaurant in an overpriced taxi.  In my opinion this type of girl barely deserves a cheap lunch at a cheap cafeteria.  And not any makeup at all.

[Aloe]

I have said this before, FSU people treat money much more lightly than western people. Every single adult in FSU has lived through 3 crises, it taught them that all your money may become worthless tomorrow, so spend it while you can. As a consequence, people in FSU do not save so much and do not view 2k as an extraordinary amount of money, even if it is more than their monthly salary, still 2k is very little. And they will go and buy an iphone for half their salary, or a fur coat for 6 months salary, or a pair of shoes for 1 months salary, and so on. So she may have thought that 2k wasn't so much. When i lived at home, i didn't think it was a lot either.

[SFandEE]

Face2face this girl seems to have done nothing to lead Neo on.  More like she expected him to give her things and she was ready to take it. 

Perhaps I would disagree here in that without seeing her profile it probably wasn't like this.

"I am looking for a WM to visit me for non-physical relationship using translator to lavish me with meals and expensive gifts.  Little or no chance for long-term relationship with mutual commitment to family, financial well-being, and mutual respect." 

Thank you for playing.

She was on the wrong website.

[Rubicon]

I don't know if you are working yet Aloe, but now that you live in the west, do you see 2K as being a rather large sum of money, especially considering that your husband probably needs to earn about 4K in order to have 2K after taxes??  

This lack of understanding of the true value of money on the part of young girls is why new people here and others should only consider dating a woman who is closer to 30 years old and has been on her own for years, earning her own keep, preferably not belonging to or "working" for an agency.

[Aloe]

Well Aloe it seems that you are the rare bird that does not see the romance and value in going to a very nice restaurant with a romantic ambiance, quality food and quality company.  to me the memory of such an experience is much better and more valuable than makeup.

As to the cost of makeup you can certainly buy quality makeup for a much better price in the US than in Europe or FSU, I know this for fact as I have shopped for it in all three places.

So we will just have to agree to disagree about the value of makeup versus going to a nice restaurant.  The girl, and I do believe she is a girl and not a woman, probably was getting a kickback for taking Neo to an expensive restaurant in an overpriced taxi.  In my opinion this type of girl barely deserves a cheap lunch at a cheap cafeteria.  And not any makeup at all.

I think you all are misunderstanding what restaurant and what make-up mean for a FSU girl.
Majority of FSU girls grow up on nice home-cooked meals and do not go to restaurants regularily until boys start taking them there. Same goes for boys, predominantly home-cooked meals, regular restaurant trips only since adulthood. There isn't such big restaurant culture in FSU as in the west.
Vast majority of FSU girls who use make-up feel very literally naked without it, hence the need to put it on even if going to buy some bread. Add the restaurant thing to it, make-up is way more important of the two. I don't wear make-up every day, but if i had to choose between spending 500 on a restaurant and 500 on make up, make-up wins hands down, because it will last several months, instead of one evening.

[tim 360]

I have said this before, FSU people treat money much more lightly than western people. Every single adult in FSU has lived through 3 crises, it taught them that all your money may become worthless tomorrow, so spend it while you can. As a consequence, people in FSU do not save so much and do not view 2k as an extraordinary amount of money, even if it is more than their monthly salary, still 2k is very little. And they will go and buy an iphone for half their salary, or a fur coat for 6 months salary, or a pair of shoes for 1 months salary, and so on. So she may have thought that 2k wasn't so much. When i lived at home, i didn't think it was a lot either.

[/b]

The FSU mindset to money and other things can be very different to the western view.

Neo,  Thanks for taking the time to chronicle your AWEB experiment here.  I know you're still smarting but throw yourself back into your work and have some fun.  For you it would never work out with this girl.  Nice experiment though.  In 5 or 6 years she will probably be more realistic.  

[Rubicon]

don't waste five or six years waiting for her either.  pick out a nice lady about 27 or 28 and get her into bed and really enjoy yourself.  after that you can ramp up with the nice presents.  no nookie, no presents.  call me cynical or whatever but it works for me.

[tim 360]

Perhaps I would disagree here in that without seeing her profile it probably wasn't like this.

"I am looking for a WM to visit me for non-physical relationship using translator to lavish me with meals and expensive gifts.  Little or no chance for long-term relationship with mutual commitment to family, financial well-being, and mutual respect." 

Thank you for playing.

She was on the wrong website.

AWEB probably doesn't allow that honesty in the profiles.  They chum the waters much better than that.  Gotta get them fish on the boat and dollars in the pocket.  Nothing about AWEB or it's ilk is honest about anything.

[Aloe]

I don't know if you are working yet Aloe, but now that you live in the west, do you see 2K as being a rather large sum of money, especially considering that your husband probably needs to earn about 4K in order to have 2K after taxes??  

This lack of understanding of the true value of money on the part of young girls is why new people here and others should only consider dating a woman who is closer to 30 years old and has been on her own for years, earning her own keep, preferably not belonging to or "working" for an agency.

It depends... While we were living purely on my hubby's money, 2k was huge money, considering we would only have like 100-200 a month leftover after paying the bills and food. When we had saved 2k in the bank, i thought it was acceptable to buy a treadmill for 1k or a cleaning robot for 500, my hubby didn't think so. Now that i went back home for a visit, and my parents spoiled me rotten again, all hubby's hard work of 2 years is down the drain lol.

[Rubicon]

I think you all are misunderstanding what restaurant and what make-up mean for a FSU girl.
Majority of FSU girls grow up on nice home-cooked meals and do not go to restaurants regularily until boys start taking them there. Same goes for boys, predominantly home-cooked meals, regular restaurant trips only since adulthood. There isn't such big restaurant culture in FSU as in the west.
Vast majority of FSU girls who use make-up feel very literally naked without it, hence the need to put it on even if going to buy some bread. Add the restaurant thing to it, make-up is way more important of the two. I don't wear make-up every day, but if i had to choose between spending 500 on a restaurant and 500 on make up, make-up wins hands down, because it will last several months, instead of one evening.

That's why you guys should make a girl cook for you, before you ever buy her anything more than a trinket.  Since cooking is normal for women in Ukraine, buy some nice food and a good bottle of wine, invite her over to cook something up for you and get her as dizzy as possible with the wine.  If a woman will not cook for you, and than really cook for you, why even bother with expensive restaurants and expensive shopping trips??

[Rubicon]

Perhaps I would disagree here in that without seeing her profile it probably wasn't like this.

"I am looking for a WM to visit me for non-physical relationship using translator to lavish me with meals and expensive gifts.  Little or no chance for long-term relationship with mutual commitment to family, financial well-being, and mutual respect."  

Thank you for playing.  Thanks for P A Y I N G!!!!

 :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Aloe]

That's why you guys should make a girl cook for you, before you ever buy her anything more than a trinket.  Since cooking is normal for women in Ukraine, buy some nice food and a good bottle of wine, invite her over to cook something up for you and get her as dizzy as possible with the wine.  If a woman will not cook for you, and than really cook for you, why even bother with expensive restaurants and expensive shopping trips??

Just because you grow up eating your momma's delicious meals, doesn't mean you can cook yourself    I never bothered to learn, now kinda sorry about it lol.

[Rubicon]

It depends... While we were living purely on my hubby's money, 2k was huge money, considering we would only have like 100-200 a month leftover after paying the bills and food. When we had saved 2k in the bank, i thought it was acceptable to buy a treadmill for 1k or a cleaning robot for 500, my hubby didn't think so. Now that i went back home for a visit, and my parents spoiled me rotten again, all hubby's hard work of 2 years is down the drain lol.

LOL!!!  Your parents must be somewhat wealthy, compared to other Russians???

[Jumper]

despite talking about a young agency girl
people seem to be  insisting on not understanding the culture they intend to
possibly  date in.

Live there ,you'd understand.

Not that it's "ok" to take such a gift in the situation,
but that:

Most any FSU person,  is going to see the value of a product , over the value of an opulant dinner out..

The dinner is wasterful, the product useful.
pragmatic!!normal view.
 
if the guy is well heeled enough that $500 dinner is average to him in his deeds and actions, and a $700 or 1K purse as a gift for a girl not really his G/F yet..along with talks of a lambo after children?

then to this girl, and this man of "means"
2k on a product ,that lasts some time, would seem pratical in comparison
(the key is in comparison )

Was she more than a bit over done ,sure!
  but she did ask 3 times where his limit was as he had out rightly and intentionally confused her where this limit lay.

This is the least of her actions ,
 the continued trips to the restuarants, with the kick backed driver,instead of any calls to ask him what he wanted tio do, wanted to see, or normal dating,  is the deal.

Did she ever call after a date ,just to say "hi" ? and see how he was doing?
not just to set up ther next meeting.
simple things.

The shopping can be  a cultural confusuion on several levels regardless her intent..
certainly in the martix Neo created for her..
 
Granted I think many would show more restraint, for many different reasons ,
some simply more calculating.
But i can easily see a julia roberts spending spree, since Gere set it up..

after a designer handbag.. talks of flights to asia , dubia , and a lambo
 i was a bit more shocked she dint head to a clothing or shoe store
to truly melt down his amex, and give the cosmetic /pragamitic thing some perspective.
 

Bond himself came in to sweep her up into another world,willingly
(might as well be another planet out of a hollywood movie)
 That's regardless if she was a hardened agency pro dater or a clueless newbie just in from out of town..
or even a young hot coed from AZ state..

seriously think about the *context*..
that shopping fiasco  is the least of it, a test in odd circumstances.
 The rest is the clincher .

"I don't know you well enough for such a gift, it is too much and inappropriate.  I am not that kind of girl.  Those girls work at the hotels and Western bars and restaurants.  I am a sincere girl seeking a serious man for a committed relationship."  Just my opinion

and you are basing that on your culture,with limited experience in hers.

When James himself steps off the movie set into your world in the FSU,
dates you,says he is quite serious,  proposes to buy you a lambo if you hit it off well, end up married with children..
I don't see any young girl there, or anywhere, turning down those  gifts.
Some would ,many wouldn't .

Granted, deciding to take him on the shopping spree instead of him OFFERING to take her, is a crucial difference no one seemed to really notice.