The man is always wrong

[dbneeley]

ManLooking--

Don't you think that "idiots" and "liars" is a bit strong--not to mention completely presumptuous?

Frankly, you have no earthly idea how others would react--or even if the situation was as you reported it, or whether your "friend" was merely as immature and clueless as you appear to be.

I happen to be a bit more mature than you are. When I see my wife enjoying a conversation with another person--even with a man--I am simply happy that she is enjoying herself. But then, we love and trust each other and we have from the first time we met a decade ago.

I also am not so foolish as to assume that everyone who simply disagrees or offers another possibility to consider is a "liar"...or that they might react the same way I would in any given situation. I've seen too many situations over many years that have long since erased that particular delusion on my part.

Personally, I think you owe some well-meaning gentlemen an apology for being so needlessly insulting on such flimsy grounds.

David

[vwrw]

And as we can see in this thread the 3 trips and other actions did not create enough attraction in the woman to give her undivided attention to the guy. What he experienced was fake and not genuine.

SMS, I want to clarify that I was talking about behavioral tendency of some women who  1. are in relationship with a man whom they adore and admire ;2. are in their usual or normal mood; 3. are walking in a public place or sitting in a restaurant (not sharing the same table with the stranger) ; and 4.notice  flirtatious smile from the  stranger.

Changing at least one of the variables may change the outcome. For example, if woman feels really good and happy, an innocent joke or compliment from a stranger(regardless of whether the stranger is male of female) may become the last thrust that leads her at the state of ecstasy or lighting up. In my opinion, lighting up is similar to orgasm. I hope nobody of you guys will insist that repeating the last pre-orgasm movement without the foreplay would affect woman the same way. All of you will understand that the last movement alone would not produce the dramatic result. The same is true about lighting up.  The RM’s words probably were the last movement necessary to overwhelm the girl, assuming the story was  presented to ML without facts’ distortion.  Generally, I doubt the facts of story were as they were presented to ML when I am considering the rules of perception that determine how mentally healthy people perceive the world around them .   

[BC]

Insecurity lies at the core for many of those thirsting for a RW.

That the 'other' man involved was a RM, or the woman RW is insignificant and not unique.

These scenes play themselves out all the time.  My gut feeling is that the AM involved simply failed to step up to the plate and introduce himself.  Had she then frowned, much more would have been known instead of letting history repeat itself.

[Muzh]

Insecurity lies at the core for many of those thirsting for a RW.

That the 'other' man involved was a RM, or the woman RW is insignificant and not unique.

These scenes play themselves out all the time.  My gut feeling is that the AM involved simply failed to step up to the plate and introduce himself.  Had she then frowned, much more would have been known instead of letting history repeat itself.

Thanks BC. Said the same using different words.

[Gator]

My Cossack lady and I went flats fishing today.  I am glad I missed all this crap.

A fact we should not ignore  – there is only one person who observed this woman’s facial expression.  He saw it and made a battlefield decision to drop her.  I still believe that he probably had some other misgivings from their prior meetings. 

This thread seems to have polarized over lighting up.  For those of you who assert it has no special significance, I hope that one day you will see the Northern Lights.  And it is not like an orgasm, VWRW.  My final words to non-believers.

By the way, VWRW,  you are critical of my lady’s attitude towards flirtatious men.  Either that, or you believe I fabricated the story.  All I will say is that everyone is different.  Just because you do something in a certain way does not mean it is the only way or the correct way.   

Perhaps it will help if I describe her expression as a subtle sneer.   Expressive word…sneer….an onomatopoeia if a sneer made a sound.   The same sneer you would receive if you asked the NY Times food editor what he thought of McDonald's.  Got the picture?

And I too doubt that she sneered at buyers when walking down the runway.  She does not talk about her modeling years; it was a previous life, and she focuses on the present and the future.  She did say she received a lot of unwanted attention outside of work (and perhaps sometimes wanted  ), and I believe she refined her sneer there. 

Anyway, the former model and I got close to nature today and went fishing in the Florida flats.   Caught a few redfish and one snook (all released save two reds).  I let a large red (maybe 30”+) get off at the boat after a long struggle.  She hooked something huge and got a long run.  We have no idea what it was as it never surfaced before the line broke on an oyster bed.  She became excited without  squealing, and had a lot of fun, especially when a dolphin surfaced next to us and snorted.  The Cossack seems more and more like a keeper.  Beautiful day.  The weather here has been glorious - 30 straight days of blue skies with another 30 in the forecast.

[I/O]

made a battlefield decision to drop her.

Not according to the script. He apparently is still banging her?

[vwrw]

Gator, I am not critical of your lady’s attitude towards flirtatious men or anything else of hers. I am too busy to waste my time on being critical of anybody but myself.  And the possibility that you could fabricate  a story never  crossed my mind during all the years I read your posts. To me, you appear to be  a person of integrity and you are one of those few people who I really care about on this forum.

I do NOT want to say that your lady are not devoted to you or that her heart is not occupied by you. You are an intelligent, charming, and supportive person. If she is not a frozen fish, I expect her to be extremely fond of you or even in love with you.  But her attitude towards flirtatious men should not be viewed as indicator of those special feelings toward you. In other words, her attitude towards flirtatious men in NOT about you. It is about HER or her habitual or reinforced reaction.  There probably are many indicators that she has special feelings for you, but it is not  her attitude towards flirtatious men.


Lighting up is not like an orgasm if we talk about how people feel when they experience it. But lighting up is like an orgasm if we talk about how to get there.  I saw the Northern Lights, I saw people being lit up, but the most important I have experienced being lit up not once in my life. Being romantically lit up is always preceded by feeling good and being full of hopes and confidence that something desirable is going to happen soon. When you feel like that any insignificant but pleasant thing, word, or act can trigger your lighting up, and you are there, in the zone where time and surroundings do not exist; worries , threads, troubles, and needs are vanished; nothing can ever go wrong, you feel invincible and immensely and intensively in the moment. 

You also can be lit up by a found solution or success in endeavor (for example, public speaking, gaining a important contract) IF before the  solution or success has occurred to you, you felt full of hopes and confidence.

We also can look on lighting up as a result of neuro-chemical outburst. It takes time for a body to produce and accumulate certain amount of necessary substances to light up a person.  Although the pre-lighting up dose of neuro-chemicals triggers the lighting up, without neuro-chemicals that are accumulated up to this moment, the lighting up would not occur.

I do NOT say that lighting up is an insignificant event, what I am trying to explain is that an insignificant event can cause lighting up once the organism is on the edge of being overwhelmed with the necessary amount of substances to be lit up.

[Faux Pas]

A fact we should not ignore  – there is only one person who observed this woman’s facial expression. He saw it and made a battlefield decision to drop her.  I still believe that he probably had some other misgivings from their prior meetings. 

This thread seems to have polarized over lighting up.  For those of you who assert it has no special significance, I hope that one day you will see the Northern Lights.  And it is not like an orgasm, VWRW.  My final words to non-believers.

And he drops down to a fetal position started sucking his thumb calling for mommy. I imagine most have seen "that" facial expression at one point or another. Back in the day we referred to it as "goo goo eyes". If it were exactly as he describes, he still has options and he choose the curb. His fragile ego couldn't stand a blow. The only certainty from such a situation is, if he was in love with and wanted to marry the woman, he had work to do. He was unable to light her up and he blames her? Who's problem is it Gator?

[Jumper]

A fact we should not ignore  – there is only one person who observed this woman’s facial expression.  He saw it and made a battlefield decision to drop her.  I still believe that he probably had some other misgivings from their prior meetings. 

Gator, that's my take as well, that he likely had some previous misgivings,
those could be from his own mind ,I've seen plenty of men talk themselves right out of a
smart,beautiful ,woman's life,or from her actions or inaction's.
He may have had no previous misgivings, but the quickness of his decision would imply he had some.

Either way I do see ML's point about him feeling sucker punched in the gut ,
by the realization that "he" came to, and that wouldn't matter if it was mostly in his mind,
 or reality, he feelings of being sick, would be the same.
and yes many men, if truly in love with her, would feel the same.

I don't doubt his reaction, I;ve seen men react tha tway,, whether
what they perceived was reality or imagined.
 
While i think most might have the sickening feeling..I simple don't agree every mans  actions would be the same.


The one thing i find important in the MOB context is:
I personally feel  a very large number of these relationships have a higher percent on the sliding scale to  *marrying for locations .status reliability /stability ,, vs simply emotional love*.

All marriages lay somewhere on that spectrum, and  marriage for purely love is somewhat a recent development in human history,so i'm not judging it in anyway.

I'm sure there are huge differences on this scale in both domestic and cross cultural marriages
, In the FSU culture i dont soubt that more than afew domestic marriages there have  incredible varying degrees of same, the even have  a common expression for it.
 

Obviously from this mans reactions,
 he felt he was fully on the emotional love end of this scale and was expecting that in return.

Personally I find a three month romance, and already engaged to be a bit silly for him to feel that was the case.So the dose of reality he *felt* he got ,was perhaps more shocking to him ?
  He likely would not expect a AW from a distant U.S. city,
that he had communicated with for 3 months, , and  had seen on 4 vacations  agreeing to marriage to be based so far on the emotional love side of that scale ,yet he expected it of a RW.
 He obviously had never seen her truly "lit up" so that alone might be the nagging "misgiving" he had all along that was confirmed.

When he proposed she dint light up like that so he likely wrote it off to being a bit hasty ,her own misgivings since it was so sudden or her fears of relocation..
lots of easy and handy
rationalizations for simply moving too quickly,  or with someone not truly in love with you
(yet or perhaps ever)

I'm not crucifying him for his actions or reactions, simply pointing out one of the many scenarios that could cause it ,
while it might no be his exact situation,  i think its quite a common one in this venture.


I feel there is just as much chance he saw something he was looking for..
from his own demons..

its all silly speculation though ..lol
No way to know unless we were standing in the situation and had seen their interactions at the time and perhaps more importantly in the past..

 

[dbneeley]

All this business about "lighting up" seems overblown in the extreme.

I have seen people "light up" when viewing an infant (human or animal). I have seen people "light up" when finding a particularly pleasing wildflower, or even in two cases a rare insect or fish.

On the other hand, I have seen the amount of concentration it takes to communicate in a second language precluding all that much in the "lighting up" department even though there may have been strong and serious feelings involved.

It seems the relationship was a fairly new one and that the gentleman in question was insecure to begin with. I can understand that he may have had serious emotional distress even if it were baseless for any of a thousand different reasons. It may also have been very appropriate given the circumstances and much that we cannot determine, not having been there and especially when filtered through a third party.

From what I understand, he continued with the trip and apparently enjoyed the lady's favors while also planning to dump her upon their return. To me, this is not exactly honorable behavior for he was certainly being dishonest with her...unless, of course, he had been honest about his feelings and made his intentions clear to her.

If his emotional distress was the result of his own insecurity, then I have little empathy to spare for him. That level of insecurity is simply an open wound that will continue to hurt when prodded by his imagination.

Unfortunately, jealousy is a rather harsh emotion with little to commend it.

I remember when I was dating a lady some years ago, and discovered that she was being dishonest with me in a rather pronounced way. Although I felt some disappointment that was a bit painful at the time, very quickly I came to the realization that she had done me a favor by allowing me to find out what was going on early enough that the pain was fleeting and nowhere nearly as strong as it might have become not long thereafter.

David

[Gator]

All marriages lay somewhere on that spectrum, and  marriage for purely love is somewhat a recent development in human history,so i'm not judging it in anyway.

Never thought about it before, and you are correct.

 

Obviously from this mans reactions,
 he felt he was fully on the emotional love end of this scale and was expecting that in return.

Personally I find a three month romance, and already engaged to be a bit silly for him to feel that was the case.So the dose of reality he *felt* he got ,was perhaps more shocking to him ?
  He likely would not expect a AW from a distant U.S. city,

Yet compressed schedules are an issue with AM-RW marriages.  In the old days, men were getting engaged in one week, i. e., the One Week Wonder.  Some men choose to ignore or rationalize their doubts, hoping for the best.  Others move on, losing the time and emotion invested in the relationship.


 


[/quote]

[TomT]

ML,

What is the next chapter in this story?
Did he dump his lit-up fiancee?
Did he forgive her and continue the relationship?
Did she forgive him and continue the relationship?
Did they start doing threesomes and foursomes?

[GoodOlBoy]

ML,
What is the next chapter in this story?
Did he dump his lit-up fiancee?
Did he forgive her and continue the relationship?
Did she forgive him and continue the relationship?
Did they start doing threesomes and foursomes?

Yeah yeah and where is the "smooth talking" Russian guy at?

GOB

[Gator]

I imagine most have seen "that" facial expression at one point or another. Back in the day we referred to it as "goo goo eyes".

I will reluctantly accept "goo goo eyes" to close this.  He never inspired "goo goo eyes" yet a complete stranger did.

If it were exactly as he describes, he still has options and he choose the curb. His fragile ego couldn't stand a blow.The only certainty from such a situation is, if he was in love with and wanted to marry the woman, he had work to do. He was unable to light her up and he blames her? Who's problem is it Gator?

Not getting her to feel towards him what she feels with other men is partly his fault, yet more a simple result of their incompatibility to include physical attraction.  So why waste any more time with this woman?    He could rationalize this behavior away by asserting he is a good man and better looking than a monkey, thus hoping as the agency hype says that she will be happy with him forever.  Or he could look for a woman who thinks he is attractive and charming and fun.

[Gator]

Being romantically lit up is always preceded by feeling good and being full of hopes and confidence that something desirable is going to happen soon. When you feel like that any insignificant but pleasant thing, word, or act can trigger your lighting up, and you are there, in the zone where time and surroundings do not exist; worries , threads, troubles, and needs are vanished; nothing can ever go wrong, you feel invincible and immensely and intensively in the moment.

That is your opinion, and as such it would involve sweet words, foreplay, etc.  My opinion differs.  My few experiences suggest that it is sudden, not gradual - a white knight riding in on his horse.  The damsel may not have been in distress, yet she has an unfulfilling relationship.


 

But her attitude towards flirtatious men should not be viewed as indicator of those special feelings toward you.

I will accept your words as tryinmg to help me.  Thanks.  Her actions indicate her values, and those values give complete devotion and prohibit any interaction with strangers of the opposite sex.  She expects the same from me, and that extends to ex-'s.  God forbid if I happen to mention the name of my ex-wife or even my ex-stepchildren with whom I had a good relationship.  Although I like it, I would be more comfortable if she  relaxed somewhat, yet this is who she is.     Why not try and change her?  I have more important battles underway.

[GoodOlBoy]

He was unable to light her up.....

Maybe ML should have loaned the guy one of his "toys" (batteries included)?  :evil:


GOB

[Faux Pas]

Not getting her to feel towards him what she feels with other men is partly his fault, yet more a simple result of their incompatibility to include physical attraction.  So why waste any more time with this woman?    He could rationalize this behavior away by asserting he is a good man and better looking than a monkey, thus hoping as the agency hype says that she will be happy with him forever.  Or he could look for a woman who thinks he is attractive and charming and fun.

That's actually where I agree. Kievstar use to constantly harp about "do not go for women out of your league" She is interested in something and it isn't him. Normally a man can not change this. This I think is what he was referring to. Perhaps is why he was looking in Ukraine to begin with. Some guys just don't "get it". Four trips and three months and he hadn't no clue she wasn't interested? As AJ referred to, dude was just ignoring the signs and the woman

[Misha]

That is your opinion, and as such it would involve sweet words, foreplay, etc.  My opinion differs.  My few experiences suggest that it is sudden, not gradual - a white knight riding in on his horse.  The damsel may not have been in distress, yet she has an unfulfilling relationship.

I agree with you Gator. It is pretty easy to tell when a 20-year-old women is smitten and falling-in-love/infatuation quite often happens within seconds. 

[Misha]

Or he could look for a woman who thinks he is attractive and charming and fun.

Yes, I agree. Reading this thread, it seems as if men think there are only two extremes: God's-gift-to-women men and the losers. Realistically, not all women will be attracted to the same type of men and the man that one woman falls in love with may be considered a jerk by another. The trick is to seek until you find a woman who falls for you, a woman that you have fallen for. IMHO, neither men nor women should settle until they have found someone to light their fires 

[Faux Pas]

Yes, I agree. Reading this thread, it seems as if men think there are only two extremes: God's-gift-to-women men and the losers. Realistically, not all women will be attracted to the same type of men and the man that one woman falls in love with may be considered a jerk by another. The trick is to seek until you find a woman who falls for you, a woman that you have fallen for. IMHO, neither men nor women should settle until they have found someone to light their fires 

From that statement Misha it would seem you missed the point. The man in question's "reaction", to seeing another man and fleeting  acquaintance light his woman up really is telling about the man himself. Many here see that type reaction as one from a loser. Myself included. Your stereotyping there is quite off the mark iMO

[Misha]

From that statement Misha it would seem you missed the point. The man in question's "reaction", to seeing another man and fleeting  acquaintance light his woman up really is telling about the man himself. Many here see that type reaction as one from a loser. Myself included. Your stereotyping there is quite off the mark iMO

The reaction sure. Yes, it would have been better for him to walk over, introduce himself and then have a long chat with the woman. Then, if he truly believed that she was not the one for him, he should have told her then and there. However, that does not deny the fact that women will go out and every marry men for financial gain. They are very adept at "pretending" they are are smitten, but it is harder to hide the real thing IMHO. As I said, yes he acted like a jerk afterwards, but it does not deny the possibility that he immediately understood that she was never truly in love with him.

Reminds me of one RW/CM couple we knew. We saw them the first time at a dance and she "seemed" to be madly in love. My wife looked at her and immediately concluded that it was all an act, a show for the audience. True to her word, the woman that we had seen dancing left him a week later, then returned to him and a few weeks ago finally moved out.... The conclusion that can be drawn: men are not very good at knowing when a woman is putting them on, and there are some women who are willing to marry men they do not truly love if they see it as beneficial 

[Faux Pas]

Reminds me of one RW/CM couple we knew. We saw them the first time at a dance and she "seemed" to be madly in love. My wife looked at her and immediately concluded that it was all an act, a show for the audience. True to her word, the woman that we had seen dancing left him a week later, then returned to him and a few weeks ago finally moved out.... The conclusion that can be drawn: men are not very good at knowing when a woman is putting them on, and there are some women who are willing to marry men they do not truly love if they see it as beneficial 

True. Some are not and I would venture a guess that many of those are thinking with their penis only

[SFandEE]

My Cossack lady and I went flats fishing today.  I am glad I missed all this crap.

Gator--I must have missed that you were seeing someone from Ukraine.  Met her in US or abroad?  Sounds like a great date.  I have been so jealous of anywhere sunny these days, we have been in daily downpours.  Great skiing in the Sierras though.

[Misha]

True. Some are not and I would venture a guess that many of those are thinking with their penis only

In this case, I suspect he thought he was "safe" as she was far from young 

[Gator]

Gator--I must have missed that you were seeing someone from Ukraine.  Met her in US or abroad?  Sounds like a great date.  I have been so jealous of anywhere sunny these days, we have been in daily downpours.  Great skiing in the Sierras though.

Her forefathers came from Ukraine (not their choice).  She is born and raised near the Urals.  Met her in Russia in 2005.