Advice for The Natural

[The Natural]

Thank you all very much for your insights. You should know that I read it very carefully.

So to conclude with what most of you say, I should not wait too long before visiting. That is also what Elena said in her Q&A. But how long is then reasonable? If I go, I would like it to be in the summer so that I can also combine it as a vacation and get some much needed sunshine and warmth. Would you say 3-4 months after establishing contact is reasonable for most women?

And another thing. If I like more that one woman, should I visit with several at the same time or would that seem like "shopping around" to the women? That is what Elena answered and she advised against visiting several women at the same time. Aloe, as a woman, what do you think about that? Lying about it out of the question for me.

[Aloe]

Thank you all very much for your insights. You should know that I read it very carefully.

So to conclude with what most of you say, I should not wait too long before visiting. That is also what Elena said in her Q&A. But how long is then reasonable? If I go, I would like it to be in the summer so that I can also combine it as a vacation and get some much needed sunshine and warmth. Would you say 3-4 months after establishing contact is reasonable for most women?

And another thing. If I like more that one woman, should I visit with several at the same time or would that seem like "shopping around" to the women? That is what Elena answered and she advised against visiting several women at the same time. Aloe, as a woman, what do you think about that? Lying about it out of the question for me.

In my opinion, best thing is visit after 3-4 weeks of daily communication through an instant messenger. You are relatively close by in Norway, you can afford to come for a short visit.
I never agreed to meet any of the "visit many" guys. That way for a woman it feels like she is supposed to compete with all the other women for you, and why would a woman do that? It's the guy who is supposed to do the conquering, not the woman. It just feels wrong on so many levels. But i guess it depends on how you perceive it. When i hear "i'll meet more than one woman during my trip", it sounds like "I want 10 of you to compete for me, and i'll pick the best horse afterwards". Not for me. But surely some other women do not view it as competition, then they may be ok with it. Although from my understanding, very many women are against "visit many"

[Faux Pas]

Thank you all very much for your insights. You should know that I read it very carefully.

So to conclude with what most of you say, I should not wait too long before visiting. That is also what Elena said in her Q&A. But how long is then reasonable? If I go, I would like it to be in the summer so that I can also combine it as a vacation and get some much needed sunshine and warmth. Would you say 3-4 months after establishing contact is reasonable for most women?

And another thing. If I like more that one woman, should I visit with several at the same time or would that seem like "shopping around" to the women? That is what Elena answered and she advised against visiting several women at the same time. Aloe, as a woman, what do you think about that? Lying about it out of the question for me.

To the first part of your question, when you find a woman you want to meet, make the plans and go. The 3-4 month rule, I'm not so sure about. 3-4 months from what? First contact? 3-4 months from a good emotional connection? Don't start the clock on anything would be my advice. When you know you want to meet that woman, make the arrangements and go. To keep it affordable and take care of appropriate paperwork you are still usually a month away at that point. You probably have already been communicating a month or longer so the 3-4 month might come into play but, don't consider it in those terms. If you are ready go, if you're not, don't. You might find a woman communicate for a few weeks and want to go. That'd make it 5-6 weeks. It maybe that it takes you 6 months for a woman to surface that you just have to meet. There is no hard and fast rule. Don't let what Aloe has stated scare you. She's relating to many who never intend to go. You know your intentions and you know you are going.

As to the second part of your question, that is going to depend upon you. Are you comfortable dating multiple women? Often doing so may/may not require stretching the truth to outright lying. I've look on and read in awe how some guys have pulled it off. I personally have never had that talent and I never tried in the FSU. Dating multiple women ALWAYS caused me trouble at home. I suppose I am just not good enough or smart enough to pull it off. Personally, I have always pretty much been, end one relationship before starting another type guy. But that is me. That will have to be your personal choice. Again, there is no hard fast rule there.

[The Natural]

Thanks. You two confirmed my instincts here that I should not visit more than one woman at at time. When I think about it, it is just not something that my personality can support.

As for when to go, I think I will go on my instincts and what the woman hints. But I can't just jump on a plane in a few weeks. I can afford it but then I must know when to go in advance so that I can prioritize my funds. Much of my extra cash has so far gone into home improvement, so to make an adjustment and have a comfortable trip means taking some time, if you get my meaning.

I haven't yet looked into the visa requirements for Ukraine and how long it takes and so on.

But aside from all that, I'm ready and willing to go for a visit as soon as possible....

How's the weather in the Crimea area right now?

[Faux Pas]

Thanks. You two confirmed my instincts here that I should not visit more than one woman at at time. When I think about it, it is just not something that my personality can support.

As for when to go, I think I will go on my instincts and what the woman hints. But I can't just jump on a plane in a few weeks. I can afford it but then I must know when to go in advance so that I can prioritize my funds. Much of my extra cash has so far gone into home improvement, so to make an adjustment and have a comfortable trip means taking some time, if you get my meaning.

I haven't yet looked into the visa requirements for Ukraine and how long it takes and so on.

But aside from all that, I'm ready and willing to go for a visit as soon as possible....

How's the weather in the Crimea area right now?

Roy,

That is IMO good thinking.Let your communications, gut feeling and your connection with the woman dictate when to travel and pursue the actual relationship. Which btw doesn't even begin until you've met face to face. Many guys it seems plan everything out down to when to pop the question before they have even met. Don't let yourself get caught in that. Take your time, smell the roses. Start on a relationship and let it lead the course (or not). Your close by, much less travel and tremendous advantages over most on the forum. You could make weekly/monthly trips according to logistics. Once the relationship has begun, it's no different and she's no different than dating in your village. Boy meets girl

[Aloe]

FP, what paperwork taking so long? Maybe it takes long in the US, but here in Europe you get a russian visa within 1 week, and it's not so far away to drive to the consulate to get one. My hubby got his russian visa 3 times this way, apply on monday, receive on friday. Actually i got his last russian visa myself, i found it pretty dam ridiculous that anyone from the street can come in and apply for anybody else's visa and then just as easily somebody else (who has the little colored paper with a number printed they gave you the first time) can just as simply receive anybody else's documents. No official documents authorizing them to do so, no nothing, just walk in, hand in the tiny paper and get a person's passport. A bit reckless if you ask me, but that's how they work in Belgium.
The Natural, according to this tool http://www.delta.com/planning_reservations/plan_flight/international_travel_information/visa_passport_information/index.jsp
you do not need a visa for Ukraine unless you plan to stay longer than 90 days

[The Natural]

Roy,

That is IMO good thinking.Let your communications, gut feeling and your connection with the woman dictate when to travel and pursue the actual relationship. Which btw doesn't even begin until you've met face to face. Many guys it seems plan everything out down to when to pop the question before they have even met. Don't let yourself get caught in that. Take your time, smell the roses. Start on a relationship and let it lead the course (or not). Your close by, much less travel and tremendous advantages over most on the forum. You could make weekly/monthly trips according to logistics. Once the relationship has begun, it's no different and she's no different than dating in your village. Boy meets girl

Wise words, thanks. But I live way up north, so I will have to travel down to Oslo and I might have to stay overnight there. Must check that out more carefully.

[The Natural]

Aloe, thats great news! I don't need a Visa to Ukraina. That was surprising for me to hear, thanks for the link.

[Aloe]

Aloe, thats great news! I don't need a Visa to Ukraina. That was surprising for me to hear, thanks for the link.

That link is only a reference, and while it seems to be a reliable source, nonetheless you must always check with the respective country's consulate to avoid a ruined trip

[The Natural]

I'm checking out the info from the Ukranian embassy to Norwegians. It different all right, here it says:

"You can have a snake in a cafe on the ground floor."

http://www.mfa.gov.ua/norway/nor/publication/content/8908.htm

And it confirms your info Aloe, citizens from Norway, the EU, Switzerland, USA, Canada and Japan do not need a Visa for travels lasting less than 90 days.

[Ade]

Wise words, thanks. But I live way up north, so I will have to travel down to Oslo and I might have to stay overnight there. Must check that out more carefully.

There's a flight from Tromsų to Arkhangelsk via Murmansk that leaves 3 times a week...

[I/O]

TN: I've always advocated the visit one way although have done both (visit one and visit many) but frankly, anyone who accused me of just playing around when I was visiting many probably wasn't too far wide of the mark. The fact was, on reflection, I just wasn't really looking to get married. With visit one, the complaint from men is usually economically based although guys will give every other bullsch!t reason under the sun and it simply comes down to trying to get maximum bang for their buck on each trip. I'm not the richest man ever to hoe this row and from this distance would've had a cost base per trip much higher than most but nevertheless accepted the risks associated with punting on one lady. Several times it didn't work out but who cares, I had some nice times......................

Aloe has given you a very balanced insight into how many women will view this and I'd simply add that in my case, I eventually figured out the style of women I was looking for was never going to cop the visit many punter under any circumstances. Time delay? Anywhere for 2 weeks to 3 months is about it IMO. The important thing is to articulate a plan fairly early in communications and stick to it. All of that said, I come back to my original advice, go visit sooner rather than later and if you're extremely lucky (highly unlikely) something might work out with one of your initial contacts but more importantly, I can assure you, you'll view womens profiles, photos and letters from a very much different and in my opinion more intelligent (if I may use the word) perspective once you can place it all in situational context.

[TwoBitBandit]

If you write a girl long and personal letters regularly for months on end and speak to her occasionally on the phone and send SMS messages and THEN let her know (either implicitly or explicitly) that you're meeting multiple girls, then she's likely to be offended.

If you write a girl four or five times with light fluffy letters over a period of three weeks, talk to her on the phone once and say you'd like to meet her for tea in a week when you're in her city, she probably won't be offended.

On my last trip I didn't write any girls until about five weeks before I landed.  I had an airline ticket and a flat rental before the first letter went out.  All of the girls knew (or should have known) that I was meeting other girls, although I was on a "don't ask don't tell" policy.  None of them asked about it except for one who asked during a third meeting.  I just kept my communication infrequent (like not replying to their messages for three days or so) and kept the tone light and not intimate.  I was just using letters to get an idea of basic compatibility (Do you want kids?  Do you have any kids already?  Do you have a degree?  etc.) before proposing to meet.

The trick to visit-many is not to make a big investment of time or communication before you actually meet a girl.

[JohnDearGreen]

And another thing. If I like more that one woman, should I visit with several at the same time or would that seem like "shopping around" to the women?... Lying about it out of the question for me.

Nat:
The easiest way to deal with VM is to visit a major city and invite several ladies from smaller cities to visit the major city to meet you.  No need to lie or give any explanation or say anything.  Each lady comes and goes on different days.  No scheduling or emotional conflicts.
If you ask her to visit Tuesday thru Thursday and she insists on a whole week, she's probably not the type you want to meet anyway.  Find another one.

[Patagonie]

In my opinion, best thing is visit after 3-4 weeks of daily communication through an instant messenger. You are relatively close by in Norway, you can afford to come for a short visit.
I never agreed to meet any of the "visit many" guys. That way for a woman it feels like she is supposed to compete with all the other women for you, and why would a woman do that? It's the guy who is supposed to do the conquering, not the woman. It just feels wrong on so many levels. But i guess it depends on how you perceive it. When i hear "i'll meet more than one woman during my trip", it sounds like "I want 10 of you to compete for me, and i'll pick the best horse afterwards". Not for me. But surely some other women do not view it as competition, then they may be ok with it. Although from my understanding, very many women are against "visit many"

No personnal attack Aloe,
You have to distrust this because it's a typical woman's BS Natural.
In fact women really like to compete for a man.
Don't believe them at all...

Think about : please, who will be the looser, after 30 minutes if she leaves you ?
She will need twenty minutes to return at home, you you will get stucked 8 or 15 days.
Do you really think that she will stop to exchange letters with others contacts ?
Do you think she will ask 10 days of vacation to spend it in her town with a guy she will never see ? Be serious. Do you think she will really get the first man who will show ? Do you think she will really wait to open new letters just after the beginning of your first skype session ?
Of course there are all against "visit many" but does they meet only one ? And does they write to only one ? Do they wait to finish the first date before open the next letter on her mailbox.   I have a lot of doubt. It's time to wake up of the disney world.  
You aim a goal and you cannot waste both time and money.

Now i understand that you don't feel comfortable to meet many. But a lot of guys here will advice you to prepare a backup plan. Of course it's a good advice anyways. Prepare it BEFORE, so you can begin it as soon as you know your contact is over. And without delay !

I'm not making a trial about WOVO or WMVO or WMVM, i did both and with a WMVO i had had a really strong and serious relation.

I just want to say  as you will not see the lady NOTHING is serious. And yes i agree totally,  as soon as possible, it's necessary for many reasons to go into an exclusive relation. It's one of the advice of EM, and it's a good one : if you don't go by the exclusive relationship no success is possible (you are always in a candystore, choosing the most top model).

Twobandits make a good point in practice for a WMVM : no more than a fluffy correspondance is required and starting it must happen 3 or 4 weeks before, no more. If you have a huge correspondance with a lady for five months, she will wait a WMVO (or WOVO) of course.

There is a guy here who have really a huge practice of the WMVM, his name is Jack. Normal he is a professional. He will tell you, better than i, what he thinks about the WMVO or WOVO. Jack ?
 

[Faux Pas]

FP, what paperwork taking so long? Maybe it takes long in the US, but here in Europe you get a russian visa within 1 week, and it's not so far away to drive to the consulate to get one. My hubby got his russian visa 3 times this way, apply on monday, receive on friday. Actually i got his last russian visa myself, i found it pretty dam ridiculous that anyone from the street can come in and apply for anybody else's visa and then just as easily somebody else (who has the little colored paper with a number printed they gave you the first time) can just as simply receive anybody else's documents. No official documents authorizing them to do so, no nothing, just walk in, hand in the tiny paper and get a person's passport. A bit reckless if you ask me, but that's how they work in Belgium.
The Natural, according to this tool http://www.delta.com/planning_reservations/plan_flight/international_travel_information/visa_passport_information/index.jsp
you do not need a visa for Ukraine unless you plan to stay longer than 90 days

Aloe, I am certainly speaking from my experience only and yes as an American, visa paperwork can easily take up to a month or more especially if there is a snag or other problem. It's not difficult to do but it does require time. Russian visa must be hand delivered in person or by an approved company to the consulate office. The US is a big country and many of us don't have a near by Russian consulate 

Unless of course one wishes to pay a several hundred extra for expedited service. Thats usually as high as $600 depending on the company. The paperwork is the invitation, the application and the passport

[I/O]

Patagonie: One simple thing which has been the case for 6000 years or 100 million years depending on your view point, men propose and women dispose.

[The Natural]

Not pertinent to our discussion here. But I showed the photos of the two women I have in mind, to my best friend here (male).

He said hands down to chose the first one, actually the first to contact me and the one I so far know the best. I said, but the other is very sweet. He just said the first one is very good looking and have lots more personality. In his view the other is nothing compared top the first one fom the Crimea. This he just saw from the photos!!! And confirmed my views.

Dont worry though! I will not base my decision on what anybody thinks, but it is interesting to know what others think based soely on a few photos!

[Jumper]

The Natural-
 As you know and stated , you shouldn't base much on photos..
just basic mutual *initial interest*.

I'd advise to get anyone you seem to connect with  on the phone
as quickly as possible.Even if they dont have a good  grasp of english, their demeanor, how they handle the possible awkwardness,
 and some of their personality will likely come through regardless.
(and preferably try to get to skype or other vid chat,
as example  mail.ru , which almost all FSU women have has a vid chat feature now was well, if they ,or thier friends, have  computor access or a vid cam)


While your area looks simply beautiful..!
and i would love to see it someday..

Like your friend I would also have you lean towards Crimea ,just because
 Crimea is also very beautiful and great vacation spot!

Last June-










There are also many beautiful women there..

Sandra Bullocks *sister?* even stops by..

Well ok, maybe it's a removed cousin to the 506th degree..or no relation at all.





but Hey!!
be sure not to send flowers first..for her birthday, or for March 8th!!!




as current common wisdom here dictates that such a  vile ,atrocious, manipulative act,
(it's like *winking/flirting* or saying Helllllloooooo Baaaaaaby!!!
 but  with dead plants)
 will show you're just some hen pecked, mid-pack dawg..

of course that's if you would even care about that stuff, (I'm prone to thinking no true alpha doggy would anyway) or subscribe to the notion humans are not even slightly more evolved in emotional responces and reactions than canines, and run in small packs of which only one can be the leader and worthy a mate.
(well that is until his pack  runs into a bigger pack which would seem pretty common in the big bad world,  and he losses his cherished spot! oh my!! )
 
  
 
Anyway good luck,
If you din't find someone in particular to visit,

  In your shoes I would go to Crimea simply to enjoy the nature there ,
and with many single women around, if you are open ,friendly , willing to chat a few up , you should have a good time regardless!
If more reserved, then you can contact someone like board member Jack,
who can get you in touch with some reliable agencies  and interpreters in most any area of the FSU.
(and certainly anywhere in Ukraine)

[Ade]

My advice would be to travel within 2 months. You're not American with their inherent travel/holiday issues so most FSUW (especially Ukrainian women w/o the visa restrictions) would probably expect you to travel relatively quickly if you hit it off; if you don't, you may come across as one of the many keyboard Romeos and lose their interest.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a comfortable trip" but you should try to travel in the style you are used to rather than trying to overdo to impress. The last thing you want is to start a relationship on false impressions.

As for the VM/VO thing; as has been pointed out, if you make a connection with a woman and she finds out you will be visiting several women, more often than not you will blow your chances. There are exceptions but most women don't want to think of themselves as one of many. It's just the way it is. And yes, you will get contrary arguments but if you ask how many married men here did a VO as opposed to VM you'll find that the majority tended towards VO... You need to be fairly sure of your abilities to accurately judge a person from email and Skype though. I would also say to be honest about it; if you do plan on doing the VM thing, especially in the same city, then it will be fairly obvious to any woman with half a brain and lying about it will just bury your chances.

Your community way up there is not going to be attractive to most. It's a fact that you're going to have to seriously think about. Even the women that would think they'd love it, in retrospect after coming to live there, may realize that very far north, small community lifestyles just aren't for them. Even down here, way, way down south of you close to Oslo, we know of RW that come here from mid to south Russia and they find it "boring" and cold. One RW/WM couple we know is planning on emigrating because of her dislike for the climate.... So, although you may be very lucky finding someone further south I would think you would increase your chances by looking to the Northern regions.

[chivo]

I would consider a 1-year multi entry business visa for more money intially, if Russia is a place you're looking to go as well without having to deal with it on a consistant basis. It will save you time, trouble and money in the long run. It should take no more than 7-10 days to get it and it will enable you to come and go for a year at your convenience. 

Don't let this stop you from making plans quickly if it comes to that. You will have to make an initial investment of a few thousand dollars at first traveling, etc. yes, it's a risk of course but it beats sitting at home by yourself.

We're not talking love, but to see if the potential is there. Maybe, maybe not but you HAVE to meet first. Better sooner than later even if it means risking some money.

[Nat]

The Natural, it seems to me relationship is such an individual thing for everybody! Things which work for some men and women don't work for others. Some people need long correspondence, some want to jump into the relationship at once. Why would you ask for any advice at all - you are an experienced person in this stuff yourself! Yep, your marriage finished in a divorce. Nevertheless, without any advice you were able to find a woman, marry her, have a decent life with her and even breaking up, still manage to end everything on good terms. My advice would be not to try to follow some stated schemes or rules, but just to be yourself, have a correspondence as long as you need to get to know a person, do everything in a moment when you feel like it, not when somebody thinks it's right - and you'll be able to find a woman who is your real match.

[Kuna]

The Natural, it seems to me relationship is such an individual thing for everybody! Things which work for some men and women don't work for others. Some people need long correspondence, some want to jump into the relationship at once. Why would you ask for any advice at all - you are an experienced person in this stuff yourself! Yep, your marriage finished in a divorce. Nevertheless, without any advice you were able to find a woman, marry her, have a decent life with her and even breaking up, still manage to end everything on good terms. My advice would be not to try to follow some stated schemes or rules, but just to be yourself, have a correspondence as long as you need to get to know a person, do everything in a moment when you feel like it, not when somebody thinks it's right - and you'll be able to find a woman who is your real match.

What Nat says about being yourself is the only truth you should listen to.

Some will advocate a VM trip based on the cost and time investment...  but if it doesn't feel right to you it will be a wasted trip anyway.

Others mistakenly make a VO trip and don't meet "the one" on that trip...  but so what!  Hopefully your trip will be inspired by something other than just meeting a woman for marriage.

Treat it like a holiday...  do what feel comfortable...  enjoy the journey and every experience you have.

FWIW I did a VM trip because I was used to "multiple dating" at home...  but by this time I'd decided to change my direction in life and settle down.  I was to meet 3 girls on that trip...  only one asked about me meeting others and I was honest...  her response was that I should contact her if it didn't work out with the others.  

There was one girl I was very interested in and my interest was well founded.  She was the one for me even though "Ms C" was a great girl too...  I just couldn't get my mind off the girl who eventually became my wife.

Just do what feels right for you...  and enjoy the experience.  Too many men ruin their own chances of meeting the right woman by getting lost in the fantasy or trying to be someone their not.

Remember this though... nothing is real till you visit...  

Best of luck!

[BC]

What Nat says about being yourself is the only truth you should listen to.
......

Treat it like a holiday...  do what feel comfortable...  enjoy the journey and every experience you have.
......

Just do what feels right for you...  and enjoy the experience.  Too many men ruin their own chances of meeting the right woman by getting lost in the fantasy or trying to be someone their not.

Remember this though... nothing is real till you visit...  

Best of luck!

Natural,

Solid gold pointers by Kuna.. can only second them.

In fact, I suggest going without any preconceived intent at all - including marriage.

Check out FSU related fora that share same or similar interests.. start networking and find an 'in', even if your primary 'contact' is a RM.  Doesn't really matter what that interest or hobby is, you WILL be exposed to and meet many nice women along the way..  Maybe the one you are looking for. 

Going with marriage minded intent probably excludes you from a lot of fine folk.. you don't want to be 'another horny tourist'.

Expand your horizon and social circle.. that's what will work in the long run.

[LAman]

Not pertinent to our discussion here. But I showed the photos of the two women I have in mind, to my best friend here (male).

He said hands down to chose the first one, actually the first to contact me and the one I so far know the best. I said, but the other is very sweet. He just said the first one is very good looking and have lots more personality. In his view the other is nothing compared top the first one fom the Crimea. This he just saw from the photos!!! And confirmed my views.

Dont worry though! I will not base my decision on what anybody thinks, but it is interesting to know what others think based soely on a few photos!

Don't think so much of photos.....in person a girl can look VERY different. If over time your mind pictures a certain look, then a meeting in person can be a letdown.