How young is too young

[Faux Pas]

Define what you mean by "underage," Kunstkammer!  The age of consent in Russia is 16, as it is in most states in the USA and a fair bit of the rest of the world.  In a lot of Europe it is only 14, as was pointed out by BC and Sandro in another thread a week or two ago.  This girl turned 18 while the OP was with her so, as far as I can see, it's legal for her to do anything she likes.  In any case, there's no indication from the OP as to how far the physical relationship progressed (and no, I don't want to know!).

I think that more people on here would feel dubious about the age gap, judging by the reactions to BillyB and A, even though this gap is a lot less - this difference is still half the girl's age!

Are you actually advocating seeking and finding a teenage bride? Just because fornication of a 16 year old is "legally" permissible is some places does make it acceptable? 

[Anotherkiwi]

Are you actually advocating seeking and finding a teenage bride?

No, of course I'm not!  However, a lot of Russians get married while still in their teens, even if many of those marriages fall apart reasonably quickly.

Just because fornication of a 16 year old is "legally" permissible is some places does make it acceptable? 

Not "some" places, Faux Pas, "most" places.  And why not?  It's only in the last 150-200 years that people have started moralising over the age at which marriages should take place.  In Roman times most girls were married by the age of 15, with life expectancy averaging only 35 to 40.  In the Middle Ages many were married at 12 or 13, and even in the 18th and 19th centuries women were "on the shelf" if not married by 18 or 19.  With longer life expectancy now there is no rush to get married simply for procreation, but I'm sure that many people who are members of this forum had sex long before they turned 18! 

[Faux Pas]

No, of course I'm not!  However, a lot of Russians get married while still in their teens, even if many of those marriages fall apart reasonably quickly.

Not "some" places, Faux Pas, "most" places.  And why not?  It's only in the last 150-200 years that people have started moralising over the age at which marriages should take place.  In Roman times most girls were married by the age of 15, with life expectancy averaging only 35 to 40.  In the Middle Ages many were married at 12 or 13, and even in the 18th and 19th centuries women were "on the shelf" if not married by 18 or 19.  With longer life expectancy now there is no rush to get married simply for procreation, but I'm sure that many people who are members of this forum had sex long before they turned 18! 

In Roman times men having sex with pubescent boys was acceptable too. Are you going to advocate that as well? Bloodletting was acceptable medical practice and smoking was believed to be healthy. Do you not see a common theme there AK? Because 12 and 13 year old girls were married off in the middle ages does not give you the green light and permission to court or bed them in present day. They didn't know any better and most did it out of desperation. Or perhaps this is the case with you too?

[Kuna]

In Roman times men having sex with pubescent boys was acceptable too. Are you going to advocate that as well? Bloodletting was acceptable medical practice and smoking was believed to be healthy. Do you not see a common theme there AK? Because 12 and 13 year old girls were married off in the middle ages does not give you the green light and permission to court or bed them in present day. They didn't know any better and most did it out of desperation. Or perhaps this is the case with you too?

+1

[tim 360]

In Roman times men having sex with pubescent boys was acceptable too.

Last I heard this is still somewhat popular in some places...

[SANDRO43]

In Roman times men having sex with pubescent boys was acceptable too.

Actually, the Greeks started that in Europe: pederasty derives from Greek (paiderastia) "love of children" or "love of boys", a compound from παῖς (pais) "child, boy" and ἐραστής (erastēs) "lover". Having an intellectual inferiority complex towards Greece, the Romans followed suit .

At the palaestra:
Youth, holding a net shopping bag filled with walnuts, a love gift,
draws close to a man who reaches out to fondle him;
Attic red-figure plate 530–430 BCE; Ashmolean Museum, Oxford.

[OlgaH]

Define what you mean by "underage," Kunstkammer!  The age of consent in Russia is 16

The Constitution of the Russian Federation
Article 60
A citizen of the Russian Federation may exercise his or her rights and duties in full from the age of 18.


Article 13. The Marriageable Age
1. The marriageable age shall be established as eighteen years.
2. In the presence of valid reasons, the bodies of local self-government at the residence of persons wishing to enter into a marriage may, at the request of such persons, permit entering into a marriage to persons who have reached the age of sixteen years. The procedure and the terms because of whose existence a marriage may be entered into by way of an exception, with account for specific circumstances, before reaching the age of sixteen years, may be laid down by the laws of the subjects of the Russian Federation.

[BC]

Lets face it folks, the girl is old enough to make her choices.

Even the law in these circumstances does not dictate that her choices be wise or properly justified..  only that she is responsible for them.

[GoodOlBoy]

Not "some" places, Faux Pas, "most" places.

Well the facts are that any middle aged AM bringing a child bride here to the GoodOl' USA will be judged here by our puritan standards and NOT on what "some" other or "most" other places do.

And I can promise you that the "judgement" will be swift and harsh (especially from AW :evil:).

The sad part of this whole scenario is that the poor child (girl) will also be judged and ostracized and probably not even understand why.


GOB

[Anotherkiwi]

Firstly, I'm glad that you spun this off into its own thread, as I think that it's a topic worthy of standing alone.  However, don't try to twist what I've written into something which fits your own agenda.

In Roman times men having sex with pubescent boys was acceptable too. Are you going to advocate that as well?

If the boys you're talking about are above the age of consent in whatever jurisdiction they happen to reside in, and they're having sex with men of their own free will, nothing you or I say will have any effect, and nor should it.  It's legal and, whatever your own feelings on the matter, the two parties have consented.

Bloodletting was acceptable medical practice and smoking was believed to be healthy. Do you not see a common theme there AK?

No, because you're talking about medical knowledge having improved over the centuries - it's not related.

Because 12 and 13 year old girls were married off in the middle ages does not give you the green light and permission to court or bed them in present day. They didn't know any better and most did it out of desperation.

I have never suggested courting or bedding girls of that age in the present day.  Where is your authority for the phrase I have highlighted?  Life expectancy in the Middle Ages was, on average, even less than for the Romans of 2000 years ago.  I wrote that "many" (not "all") were married that young - with most expecting to live no more than another 20 or 30 years it made sense to have their own children as early as possible.  They may not have had the knowledge to rationalise it in the way that we can today, but to talk of "desperation" is stretching things way too far.

Because 12 and 13 year old girls were married off in the middle ages does not give you the green light and permission to court or bed them in present day. They didn't know any better and most did it out of desperation. Or perhaps this is the case with you too?

Be very careful what you write!  Your words could easily be taken to imply that you believe I'm some sort of sexual pervert chasing young girls.  You're a moderator on this forum - you should know better than to suggest something which could come back to bite both you and the forum in the backside.

[Anotherkiwi]

The Constitution of the Russian Federation
Article 60
A citizen of the Russian Federation may exercise his or her rights and duties in full from the age of 18.


Article 13. The Marriageable Age
1. The marriageable age shall be established as eighteen years.
2. In the presence of valid reasons, the bodies of local self-government at the residence of persons wishing to enter into a marriage may, at the request of such persons, permit entering into a marriage to persons who have reached the age of sixteen years. The procedure and the terms because of whose existence a marriage may be entered into by way of an exception, with account for specific circumstances, before reaching the age of sixteen years, may be laid down by the laws of the subjects of the Russian Federation.

Thank you Olga - interesting that Russia allows the marriage of people under 16 if there are special circumstances.

[Anotherkiwi]

Well the facts are that any middle aged AM bringing a child bride here to the GoodOl' USA will be judged here by our puritan standards and NOT on what "some" other or "most" other places do.

And I can promise you that the "judgement" will be swift and harsh (especially from AW :evil:).

The sad part of this whole scenario is that the poor child (girl) will also be judged and ostracized and probably not even understand why.


GOB

I don't disagree at all, GOB, and I'm quite sure that the moralising majority will throw up their hands in horror, in exactly the same way that they do for domestic marriages with the same (or larger) age gap!  I'm glad you wrote "puritan" - it's laughable that so many people should react that way in a country which has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the world.  Think of the furore when Anna Nicole Smith married Howard Marshall; think of the sky crashing down when Hugh Hefner married his latest Playmate.  Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin - surely that was far worse than BillyB and A!

If their relationship crashes and burns, as some on here seem to want just so that they can say "I told you so," so be it.  In the meantime, they are legally able to make their own decisions.  Whether or not those decisions are wise, morally right or otherwise are nobody's business but theirs.  BillyB may have opened this can of worms by posting so much about it, but it's still the life that he and A have chosen - not yours, not mine.  I'm not a fan of what they're doing, but that's just my preference for someone older than a teenager.

[Faux Pas]

Firstly, I'm glad that you spun this off into its own thread, as I think that it's a topic worthy of standing alone.  However, don't try to twist what I've written into something which fits your own agenda.

What pray tell is my agenda. Those are your words. I only attempted to inject a bit of sanity into it.

If the boys you're talking about are above the age of consent in whatever jurisdiction they happen to reside in, and they're having sex with men of their own free will, nothing you or I say will have any effect, and nor should it.  It's legal and, whatever your own feelings on the matter, the two parties have consented.

I mentioned no ages just responded to the ages you mentioned but the sex mentioned of the Romans was with boys hardly able to give consent yet, it is the Romans you've hailed as examples for your choices. Isn't that funny?

No, because you're talking about medical knowledge having improved over the centuries - it's not related.
I have never suggested courting or bedding girls of that age in the present day.  Where is your authority for the phrase I have highlighted?  Life expectancy in the Middle Ages was, on average, even less than for the Romans of 2000 years ago.

 

Psychological science has improved over the same time period. Life expectancy had nothing to do with child brides. Strawman argument.

You are suggesting it is perfectly fine for 30, 40, 50 or more year old men to chase teenage brides and apparently you seek some vilification that is is okay and acceptable to do so by citing the Romans or others from the Dark Ages. Well, you don't get it, DENIED! If you are going to chase teenagers you'll do it anyway without any approval from anyone. Just do it but don't come here preaching about how acceptable it is in regular society, it isn't.

 

I wrote that "many" (not "all") were married that young - with most expecting to live no more than another 20 or 30 years it made sense to have their own children as early as possible.  They may not have had the knowledge to rationalise it in the way that we can today, but to talk of "desperation" is stretching things way too far.
Be very careful what you write!  Your words could easily be taken to imply that you believe I'm some sort of sexual pervert chasing young girls.  You're a moderator on this forum - you should know better than to suggest something which could come back to bite both you and the forum in the backside.

Those are your words not mine but, I wouldn't disagree with them. I find you attempting to take advantage of some young unsuspecting teenager quite repulsive. Maybe it is because I have raised a few of them and I know that none, nadda, zero, zilch are prepared for marriage to some old perverted guy looking to rob them of their youth and live vicariously through them. Grow the hell up and find someone that is aware of what they are doing. Thats how I feel about it. 

[Ade]

I don't disagree at all, GOB, and I'm quite sure that the moralising majority will throw up their hands in horror, in exactly the same way that they do for domestic marriages with the same (or larger) age gap!  I'm glad you wrote "puritan" - it's laughable that so many people should react that way in a country which has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the world.  Think of the furore when Anna Nicole Smith married Howard Marshall; think of the sky crashing down when Hugh Hefner married his latest Playmate.  Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin - surely that was far worse than BillyB and A!

If their relationship crashes and burns, as some on here seem to want just so that they can say "I told you so," so be it.  In the meantime, they are legally able to make their own decisions.  Whether or not those decisions are wise, morally right or otherwise are nobody's business but theirs.  BillyB may have opened this can of worms by posting so much about it, but it's still the life that he and A have chosen - not yours, not mine.  I'm not a fan of what they're doing, but that's just my preference for someone older than a teenager.

What some people don't seem to get in the BillyB story is that it has little to do with the age gap and much more to do with her age, maturity and the reasons behind her "relationship" with a man who is in his forties.

When a man comes here and explicitly proclaims that he is a "quality man" who is wise and intelligent and wants to teach the new guys how to go about procuring a successful relationship with a "quality woman", it should go without saying that his methods and rationale are going to be critiqued. When, by inference, he then says it's a wise thing to hook up with a teenager, a teenager that could quite possibly have been in the latter half of her 16th year when he started grooming her talking to her, then it's fully understandable that people will have serious issues with his methodology and reasoning.

There are very good reasons why teachers and other professions in positions of authority and influence over children would be fired and/or prosecuted by the law (in some countries at least) if they were found to be having a "relationship" like this with a girl of her age.

Irrespective of people's moral stance on the issue, it's highly probable that relationships of this type are only possible because the girl is dysfunctional at some level. It is not normal for an attractive 16/17 year old girl to be attracted to a pudgy, middle age man with a receding hairline, and for Billy to promote this as a relationship that other men should aspire to is ludicrous.

In an ideal world, what should happen is that this girl would undergo therapy to get over her "daddy issues" and she would be discouraged from pursuing a "relationship" with a domineering and controlling man that could very well be psychologically damaging for her. The fact that her father is absent and her strange mother seems to be okay with her "relationship" with Billy speaks volumes about her upbringing and the possible causes of her "daddy issues". As for Billy; his delusional world view is plain for any rational person to see and I pity any woman that ends up under is control.

[Kuna]

What some people don't seem to get in the BillyB story is that it has little to do with the age gap and much more to do with her age, maturity and the reasons behind her "relationship" with a man who is in his forties.

When a man comes here and explicitly proclaims that he is a "quality man" who is wise and intelligent and wants to teach the new guys how to go about procuring a successful relationship with a "quality woman", it should go without saying that his methods and rationale are going to be critiqued. When, by inference, he then says it's a wise thing to hook up with a teenager, a teenager that could quite possibly have been in the latter half of her 16th year when he started grooming her talking to her, then it's fully understandable that people will have serious issues with his methodology and reasoning.

There are very good reasons why teachers and other professions in positions of authority and influence over children would be fired and/or prosecuted by the law (in some countries at least) if they were found to be having a "relationship" like this with a girl of her age.

Irrespective of people's moral stance on the issue, it's highly probable that relationships of this type are only possible because the girl is dysfunctional at some level. It is not normal for an attractive 16/17 year old girl to be attracted to a pudgy, middle age man with a receding hairline, and for Billy to promote this as a relationship that other men should aspire to is ludicrous.

In an ideal world, what should happen is that this girl would undergo therapy to get over her "daddy issues" and she would be discouraged from pursuing a "relationship" with a domineering and controlling man that could very well be psychologically damaging for her. The fact that her father is absent and her strange mother seems to be okay with her "relationship" with Billy speaks volumes about her upbringing and the possible causes of her "daddy issues". As for Billy; his delusional world view is plain for any rational person to see and I pity any woman that ends up under is control.

Strong words...  but fair.

A middle aged man like Billy will steal the girls youth for his own gratification.  No matter how he tries to convince himself the relationship is legitimate...  it's not.

She's too young to even conceive what she is giving up...  and it's likely she's convincing herself that this is in her destiny...  but young girls do grow up!  Billy is forgetting that...

The girl is incapable of making such decisions that's why her mother went along to approve or disapprove... and if they mother did approve of this relationship she has failed the child.

All in all it is very sad...  I feel sorry for all involved even though Billy has convinced himself he's so irresistible that he can have any quality woman he wants...

The thing is,  in this case he has not chased a woman... he's chased an immature girl. 

If anyone wonders why international marriages have such a bad image it's because unequal unions like this one are exposed for what they are, and there is an assumption that most, if not all, international marriages must be the same.

[SANDRO43]

Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin - surely that was far worse than BillyB and A!

Jerry Lee Lewis was only 10 older than her, not 30+ .

Lewis's third wife, Myra Gale Brown. She was Lewis's first cousin once removed and only 13 years old. (Brown, Lewis, and his management all insisted she was 15). Lewis was nearly 23 years old.

[youtube=325,250]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD8siCNo7b4[/youtube] [youtube=325,250]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imI5YMU53HE[/youtube]

 

[Aloe]

All this is nice and dandy, but i think you all forget something: Vast majority of men are horny bastards   I have had tons of 30+, 40+ yr old men chase me ever since i turned 14. They don't care how old a girl is, they are just horny. Granted, back then i was dressing provocatively, but looking in my baby face was enough to tell i was young It never stopped anyone. Half the time i'd hear this: "there is no way that you are 14, with boobs like these!!" lmao. Now that i dress like a normal person, people think i'm 16-17 from my face   And i'm 23.  Have to show my passport if i wanna buy a lottery ticket    So there is no way in hell my face looked older than 14 when i was actually 14. So the truth is (really, you all didn't know?), men are just horny and no numbers are going to stop them. Of course in the US you actually risk jail time, that may be a show stopper for many, but in countries where it is acceptable to sleep with 14 yr olds, like FSU, there is really nothing stopping them.
(Of course it was also partly my fault that the old perverts were chasing me when i was 14, cuz i was going out with older people and dressed provocatively. A normal 14 yr old usually doesn't hang out in places where they would meet a lot of 40 yr olds)

[GoodOlBoy]

All this is nice and dandy, but i think you all forget something: Vast majority of men are horny bastards  

I agree with you completely Aloe!
Believe it or not, GOB has had his "horny bastard" moments :evil:, BUT....I always turned to a woman for comfort, NOT a child/teenager.

GOB

[GQBlues]

What a thread!

I can understand some of the expressed concerns stated in these posts.

What I don't understand however is, why does it seem folks are taking this much too personal?
Yeah, it ain't cool BillyB may have started writing to a 16 year old girl.....
Yeah, it ain't cool BillyB is this or BillyB is that....
Yeah, it ain't cool BillyB is filing a K-1 for an 18 year old woman....

I understand all that. But how did this become PERSONAL to each of you? When all is said and done, their life and living won't be coming home and into your living rooms?

Court of public opinion? I suppose this is sort of like an arraignment prior to a trial the subject couple will face in the future. - BUT guess what? It'll be their trial. Their lives and their future.

It was mentioned upthread how a case like this gives the MOb a bad rap. Maybe. To a very minute degree.

The MOB, specifically those from FSU, generally have a bad reputation not because of BillyB's saga, but rather because of young FSUWs who annually skip their visa obligations and are on the hide, working your neighborhood strip joints, fellas. No other nationalities involved in the MOB is pegged in a greencard jaundiced eyes the same way FSUWs do because no other nationality involved in the MOB skips their student/work-travel visas and work those joints.

I'll razz BillyB as much as the next guy, but man, some of you make this waaaay too personal. Why?

I also want to know who this 'Harb' poster is? Did any of the mods tried to find out is this is a dual identity poster? If so, is this allowed in this message board?

[Ade]

What a thread!

I can understand some of the expressed concerns stated in these posts.

What I don't understand however is, why does it seem folks are taking this much too personal?
Yeah, it ain't cool BillyB may have started writing to a 16 year old girl.....
Yeah, it ain't cool BillyB is this or BillyB is that....
Yeah, it ain't cool BillyB is filing a K-1 for an 18 year old woman....

I understand all that. But how did this become PERSONAL to each of you? When all is said and done, their life and living won't be coming home and into your living rooms?

Court of public opinion? I suppose this is sort of like an arraignment prior to a trial the subject couple will face in the future. - BUT guess what? It'll be their trial. Their lives and their future.

It was mentioned upthread how a case like this gives the MOb a bad rap. Maybe. To a very minute degree.

The MOB, specifically those from FSU, generally have a bad reputation not because of BillyB's saga, but rather because of young FSUWs who annually skip their visa obligations and are on the hide, working your neighborhood strip joints, fellas. No other nationalities involved in the MOB is pegged in a greencard jaundiced eyes the same way FSUWs do because no other nationality involved in the MOB skips their student/work-travel visas and work those joints.

I'll razz BillyB as much as the next guy, but man, some of you make this waaaay too personal. Why?

I also want to know who this 'Harb' poster is? Did any of the mods tried to find out is this is a dual identity poster? If so, is this allowed in this message board?

Your first mistake is to equate emotive language written on an internet forum with "taking it personally".

Then you fail to realize that [generally] what drives a dude to write a post about Billy is [probably] no different than what drives a dude to write a post about a dude writing a post about Billy.

[GQBlues]

Your first mistake is to equate emotive language written on an internet forum with "taking it personally".

When people wait around for days for BillyB's post, then respond literally within short minutes, just like what you did to mine...easily shows they've taken his saga personally than simply describing the reactions as emotive.

Unless of course these are showcasing what people do when they ain't got much else going in their respective lives, yes?

[Gator]

Hasn't this been covered adequately in Lolita, a novel written by a Russian author.

 

[Misha]

I am really curious/concerned about the men's opinions here on RWD concerning the latest pictures posted.

I have to say that the first photo with the stuffed toy and the little dolls really certainly highlights to me that she is certainly way too young. 

[Ade]

When people wait around for days for BillyB's post, then respond literally within short minutes, just like what you did to mine...easily shows they've taken his saga personally than simply describing the reactions as emotive.

Unless of course these are showcasing what people do when they ain't got much else going in their respective lives, yes?

I didn't describe any reactions as emotive. Just the words dude.

And you're making a mistake again; you equate interest (for whatever reason) with "taking it personally". And I'd also hope that you don't seriously believe your words about "waiting around for days"....

[Faux Pas]

I understand all that. But how did this become PERSONAL to each of you? When all is said and done, their life and living won't be coming home and into your living rooms?

Court of public opinion? I suppose this is sort of like an arraignment prior to a trial the subject couple will face in the future. - BUT guess what? It'll be their trial. Their lives and their future.

It was mentioned upthread how a case like this gives the MOb a bad rap. Maybe. To a very minute degree.


I'll razz BillyB as much as the next guy, but man, some of you make this waaaay too personal. Why?

I also want to know who this 'Harb' poster is? Did any of the mods tried to find out is this is a dual identity poster? If so, is this allowed in this message board?

"Are you tawkin da'me?"   If so GQ, you've certainly read my posts wrong. I don't take anything on the fora personally, anymore. I'm way past that. If you were following how/where this thread developed and considering BillyB's ongoing defense of the indefensible and now some more attempting to support child bride seeking as a normal and legal "way of life", then those looking on need some reference, IMO anyway that, these guys are really way the hell "out there". It is not acceptable, at least to me anyway for 40 year old men to seek teenagers to marry. The teen in all probability doesn't know any better. The 40 year old man should.

For these guys to try and rationalize it away as normal is beyond absurd, it's insane. Nothing surprises me anymore and the fact that they'll use the MOB business as an avenue certainly doesn't. They should just walk around with a label on their forehead stating "women control and domination issues" to at least give the teen a fighting chance. Don't you think?

If she is 18-19 and you are in your 40's, she is still a teenage bride. If you are in your 30's, she is still a teenage bride. I point that out because if she is a teenager, she is a teenage bride. Her thoughts and emotions are as fragile as any other teen. For a man in his 30s, 40s 50s or beyond to take advantage of that, is one sick puppy IMHO, is all I'm saying.