Elena's Models.... Are they the "lessor of all evils" in the search?

[Kapitanleutnant]

Thanks everyone.....   Pretty rousing discussion here which tells me that each of us has their own ideas as to how to proceed.... me included.   And yes, I do read each of these posts and what I do is take what I feel I like and would work for my personality and mesh it all into the way I want to proceed.    After all, I think we all know each of us has done this right here on this board.... take pieces of advice we feel is valuable to us and work it all into our own way of searching. 

There is absolutely no right or wrong way nor is there a better or worse way (well... maybe!) to do this process.   It is ultimately each individual's perception of how it all works.   Boy, do I wish this website was available back in the mid 90's when I last sought a FSU woman!!   Live and learn............

I will say that of all the posts I've come across here, it's my opinion that "just going there" is probably the best way to approach this.     At this point however, for me I'm not sure whether I want to write and then set up meetings or to just show up, find an agency and use them for introductions.    At this point, that is my personal dilemma.   

Thus, the reason for the original post about EM.....   They do seem to be pretty good for the writing ahead of time to set up meetings kind of thing.   

Kapitan

[dbneeley]

KL--

Perhaps the quintessential example of the "just go there" school was a man who called himself "Frank" and later "Frank Frank" on several of the mail lists. He made at least eight or ten trips over a decade before locating a lady who would marry him to marry. Meanwhile, over and over he said that more than a single intro letter was wasted and that it is just as good to "just show up"--even to meet women on the street.

There is another factor that is rarely discussed, too. For some, written communication is more of an art form--they read and write well and find it a comfortable way to express themselves while giving ample opportunity to think through what they are saying before hitting "send." This kind of person values the sort of intimate communication that is difficult to achieve in other ways, at least early on in a given relationship.

Then there are those for whom writing is awkward. Often, they have serious problems with spelling, grammar, and rhetoric. They will simply never be fully comfortable with the written word.

Of course, there is also a wide range in the middle of these two extremes.

Thus, I believe you are quite correct that each person should find that method or those methods most congenial to him or her. As I have pointed out before, sometimes it helps to look especially at those who seem to be both farther along on this journey than you are and who seem the most similar to your outlook and values--and consider carefully trying what was successful for them. This at least gives you a place to start that makes some more sense than trying to throw metaphorical darts at a target having so many options to decide which you intend to follow.

Regarding longer communications--I think your chances of that are improved if you compose an intro letter that clearly sets out your intentions from the first. Perhaps something like:

"Although as an airline pilot I can easily travel, at this point in my life I am interested in truly getting to know someone before trying to rush into a relationship. For me, that means sharing our minds and hearts over sufficient time to be a little more sure of each other--our values, our intellect, our sense of humor. Once I have found the right lady, it is my intention to do all I can to build with her the sort of life most people only can dream of. Therefore, I seek to build the sort of trust and rapport necessary to reach that goal. Unfortunately, I know of no infallible method nor one that can often be rushed. Therefore, it may take a few months for us to learn enough about each other to determine if this might possibly mark the end of our search for our true 'other half.' "

(Obviously, this is off the top of my head and I would work to make it as brief but expressive as possible.)

I think you'll find that many of the most intelligent ladies would be fine with this approach--as you are being both honest and expressing a legitimate reason for your approach. The "airline pilot and can easily travel" should discourage the idea that you are simply the prototypical "keyboard Romeo" type.

Good luck with whatever methods you may choose--although I quite agree that limiting yourself to one site would be unfortunate. I also agree that to maximize your chances of success that the more work you put in yourself, the more your chances of reaching your goal improve.

David

[The Natural]

This came up a little while ago (I was one of many with this problem).  Set your browser to "Compatibility View" in the "Tools" drop-down, close and re-open the browser and you should have no problems. I think from what others posted that this only affects Internet Explorer, not Firefox or Google Chrome.

Thanks alot, that fixed the problem 

[Aloe]

Wow where is this crazy assumption coming from that if a lady isn't up for writing for 1 year, then she isn't into writing? How bizarre. I guess some people didn't understand what i meant with my first post. Let me elaborate.

Vast majority of men looking for FSU women are looking for a serious relationship purely inside their head, a sort of imagination trip, and nothing in the real world. Hence they write most beautiful letters months on end, even years if a lady doesn't lose patience in the mean time, and they never ever go over for a real visit. They promise they will come and keep filling their letters with a picture perfect fantasy of being married, a family, everything a woman dreams about. They talk about your future together, they describe you how you will meet and fall in love, get married, build your home, find out you are pregnant, tears of joy, pick out baby room together, what colors they find beautiful, and how they dream of nothing more than having a beautiful happy family and will do everything in their power and even more to provide that. They talk about practical things, the visa application, tickets, all arrangements, and the insurance they will get, for you included, and the house insurance, and the job plans they have, and all kinds of practical things that he will take care of. It's all so real, they cover every single detail of everything you could possibly think of and more things that you've never even thought of. So they get the woman's hopes up, she is happy, nearly in love, already picturing the happy life together, she feels she knows this man so well, and there is such deep connection..

Months are passing by, the writing keeps on and on, the romeo says he will soon come and everything will go according to the plan. Alas there happen all kinds of things in life of his that make the trip impossible for now, but surely he will come later, as soon as he takes care of this. And he is a man of his word, he's not a dreamer. He is as real as the sun and diarrhea.. And this is going on and on and on and on and on, depending how patient the woman is. Usually up to 1 year. It may go on a couple years even.

Anyway, the reality is that this man is NEVER coming over. Ever. And the majority of men out there in this search are like this. I've encountered tons of these men, other women have encountered tons of these men (we talk on forums), they are everywhere. The woman keeps holding on because of strong connection that she feels to him. But his disappointing and postponing the trip keeps chipping away at her. So finally the woman is driven into despair and  at last she gives up hope and stops writing to this guy.

If she isn't completely devastated and still has hope, she will start looking for a guy again.
So she starts writing to her second man who there seems to be a connection with, and the history repeats itself.
There may be short correspondances with other men in between, but eventully it stops because of incompatibility or something else.
And third "connection" one and it happens again!! (Granted this time it takes her less time to realize that it is a romeo, and yet it still hurts.

It is an extremely painful process for a woman, it is very hurtful, frustrating and enough to send a weaker someone into complete depression agony and despair, but russian women are strong. So she picks herself up, and comes out hardened. She realizes there is no point in writing, cuz she will not find her love within her lifetime if she keeps wasting so much time on romeos. So that's when she says, i am not interested in long correspondence, i want a real meeting. Why does she say this? It is not because she doesn't like writing and doesn't wanna get to know her partner. She loves writing and she really wants to get to know the right guy. But a real life meeting weeds out the romeo, it's as simple as that. The man needs to show her that he is serious, and not just another romeo, of which there are so many. So a real life meeting is a sort of reality-check. Are you a real man interested in a real relationship or are you a dreamer?? This is the question you answer for her by showing up in person.

And if you say, well hey, i wanna write a year first, to see if we are good togethe. That throws a giant big fat red flag in the air. She remembers the time waste and pain she had to endure from the romeos, and says no thanks.  

[The Natural]

Since we're on the subject of how to make the profile, I can  tell folks how I did it. Don't know if it's the best or most effective way, but I had at least one thing in mind while formulating it and that is to give as honest as possible information to the woman reading. As well as reducing the number of interests and e-mails from women who upon closer inspection find out that I live in a very small community, whereas they are big city girls that need non-stop action or all the culture a city can offer.

So here's my profile:

Personal message

I am now living in my home village. I have a big house that I keep on improving. I work very close to my home.

What can I offer you who want to come live with me?

I think it is a good idea to tell you something about the place I live in. It`s on an island in north-western Norway. The island has about 5000 inhabitants and my village 300. Women who like the city life with theatres, museums and other activities associated to city-life will probably not thrive here. But if you like the quiet life, amazing nature and fresh air, a safe place to live, a garden around the house to tend to, go for walks in the nature or climb the mountains, the occasional boat trip on the fjord, go cross-country skiing on lit ski tracks, you will love it here.
In my house, I also have a dedicated home cinema with TV, surround set-up and Internet connection.

In my village we have a grocery/electronics shop and a hair dressing salon very close to my house. We have a gas station with car repair facilities and we have a kindergarten and a Montessori school for children aged between 6 and 12. We also have a community building where people gather for different cultural happenings and parties.

I have a car and when I need to go shopping for things I don`t find here, I drive to Sortland which is this areas shopping town with lots of different shops. That is about a 50 minute drive away.

The municipality centre on the island is called Andenes and is a 40 minute drive away from my village. When you come you are required by law to attend classes of Norwegian language. In the beginning you can take the bus there.

Later on if you want to find a job you will probably need to study for the drivers licence. Because of the distances it is best to have a car in order to get to work, shopping or visiting friends.

But I will take good care of you and love you and help you adjust to a new environment. It might be different and sometimes hard, but that will pass. The most important is that we have each other and support and love each other above all else.

I have a good and quiet life here but I miss YOU very much! 

[Lily]

Natural, what I noted reading your profile is that you dwell on your environment and things that surround you. From this text, I could not get any information about the man.

IMHO a woman is interested in the man first, in his genes, character, mentality, in what makes this man tick, in his passions. As about everything else in his life, she probably considers whether it would be bearable for her, or rather not bearable.  It is HIM that we want!

My question would be, where would you expect a woman to get some interest in you, and not in your surroundings? Should she get perhaps some interest from your photos?

[Kuna]

Natural, what I noted reading your profile is that you dwell on your environment and things that surround you. From this text, I could not get any information about the man.

IMHO a woman is interested in the man first, in his genes, character, mentality, in what makes this man tick, in his passions. As about everything else in his life, she probably considers whether it would be bearable for her, or rather not bearable.  It is HIM that we want!

My question would be, where would you expect a woman to get some interest in you, and not in your surroundings? Should she get perhaps some interest from your photos?

EXACTLY... though Lily doesn't need my endorsement as she obviously knows what a woman knows best.



TN,  remember, the ladies have Google... if you mention the city/town you're in they'll look it up if they are interested in it at some point.  There's also plenty of time to talk about your surrounds later... but even then I would be describing what you do in your surrounds.. not just what it is.

Women always will want to hear about YOU...  not how tall you are,  how many fingers and toes you have either.   

Dare I say...  women want to know what you think,  how you feel,  examples of how you make decisions, what your values are...  etc.

One thing I would say is don't lay it on too thick.  You're not marketing yourself.  You're introducing yourself.

Finally,  it may be a small point but I'd be careful using the work village so much.  There are definitely different connotations in FSU to the West.

Please remember... I know nothing about women.  These are just personal opinions.   

Kuna

[Ade]

Wow where is this crazy assumption coming from that if a lady isn't up for writing for 1 year, then she isn't into writing? How bizarre. I guess some people didn't understand what i meant with my first post. Let me elaborate.

Vast majority of men looking for FSU women are looking for a serious relationship purely inside their head, a sort of imagination trip, and nothing in the real world. Hence they write most beautiful letters months on end, even years if a lady doesn't lose patience in the mean time, and they never ever go over for a real visit. They promise they will come and keep filling their letters with a picture perfect fantasy of being married, a family, everything a woman dreams about. They talk about your future together, they describe you how you will meet and fall in love, get married, build your home, find out you are pregnant, tears of joy, pick out baby room together, what colors they find beautiful, and how they dream of nothing more than having a beautiful happy family and will do everything in their power and even more to provide that. They talk about practical things, the visa application, tickets, all arrangements, and the insurance they will get, for you included, and the house insurance, and the job plans they have, and all kinds of practical things that he will take care of. It's all so real, they cover every single detail of everything you could possibly think of and more things that you've never even thought of. So they get the woman's hopes up, she is happy, nearly in love, already picturing the happy life together, she feels she knows this man so well, and there is such deep connection..

Months are passing by, the writing keeps on and on, the romeo says he will soon come and everything will go according to the plan. Alas there happen all kinds of things in life of his that make the trip impossible for now, but surely he will come later, as soon as he takes care of this. And he is a man of his word, he's not a dreamer. He is as real as the sun and diarrhea.. And this is going on and on and on and on and on, depending how patient the woman is. Usually up to 1 year. It may go on a couple years even.

Anyway, the reality is that this man is NEVER coming over. Ever. And the majority of men out there in this search are like this. I've encountered tons of these men, other women have encountered tons of these men (we talk on forums), they are everywhere. The woman keeps holding on because of strong connection that she feels to him. But his disappointing and postponing the trip keeps chipping away at her. So finally the woman is driven into despair and  at last she gives up hope and stops writing to this guy.

If she isn't completely devastated and still has hope, she will start looking for a guy again.
So she starts writing to her second man who there seems to be a connection with, and the history repeats itself.
There may be short correspondances with other men in between, but eventully it stops because of incompatibility or something else.
And third "connection" one and it happens again!! (Granted this time it takes her less time to realize that it is a romeo, and yet it still hurts.

It is an extremely painful process for a woman, it is very hurtful, frustrating and enough to send a weaker someone into complete depression agony and despair, but russian women are strong. So she picks herself up, and comes out hardened. She realizes there is no point in writing, cuz she will not find her love within her lifetime if she keeps wasting so much time on romeos. So that's when she says, i am not interested in long correspondence, i want a real meeting. Why does she say this? It is not because she doesn't like writing and doesn't wanna get to know her partner. She loves writing and she really wants to get to know the right guy. But a real life meeting weeds out the romeo, it's as simple as that. The man needs to show her that he is serious, and not just another romeo, of which there are so many. So a real life meeting is a sort of reality-check. Are you a real man interested in a real relationship or are you a dreamer?? This is the question you answer for her by showing up in person.

And if you say, well hey, i wanna write a year first, to see if we are good togethe. That throws a giant big fat red flag in the air. She remembers the time waste and pain she had to endure from the romeos, and says no thanks.  

That's a very good post Aloe. It's really important for guys to realize what it can be like on the other side of the fence - many guys tend to be so focused on avoiding scammers and GTG that they fail to comprehend what far more women have to go through dealing with male scammers. Information like this should be at the forefront of a man's mind when he's thinking of how long to write for before he books his trip.

[Gator]

Natural, what I noted reading your profile is that you dwell on your environment and things that surround you. From this text, I could not get any information about the man.

Excellent point.

[The Natural]

Natural, what I noted reading your profile is that you dwell on your environment and things that surround you. From this text, I could not get any information about the man.

IMHO a woman is interested in the man first, in his genes, character, mentality, in what makes this man tick, in his passions. As about everything else in his life, she probably considers whether it would be bearable for her, or rather not bearable.  It is HIM that we want!

My question would be, where would you expect a woman to get some interest in you, and not in your surroundings? Should she get perhaps some interest from your photos?

Well, this is not the whole profile, I have some things to try to describe myself. I just figured I would tell her how my surroundings are like first, because it's vastly different from what most are used to. And then tell more in e-mails from the women who do show interest. It is limited how much one can, or should, put on a profile.

Even with the info on my surroundings, a girl who had shown interest came back and said she was sorry to say no because my place is too small. So at least there we both saved time.

[Gator]

That's a very good post Aloe.

Yes it is.   She and Lily are fine examples of the immense value of our RW members in helping a man pursue this endeavor.

[The Natural]

She realizes there is no point in writing, cuz she will not find her love within her lifetime if she keeps wasting so much time on romeos. So that's when she says, i am not interested in long correspondence, i want a real meeting.

This should be sobering facts for many. Excellent post Aloe.

[Gator]

Well, this is not the whole profile....

Less is best IMO.  Save much for correspondence.  Not saying this is you, yet RW are turned off by narcism (they abhor "egotistical" and "greedy" men).  

[The Natural]

Finally,  it may be a small point but I'd be careful using the work village so much.  There are definitely different connotations in FSU to the West.

Good point, will change that.

Please remember... I know nothing about women

Well, who does? 

[Ade]

Good point, will change that.

"Small town" would be better but still don't exaggerate; better that you're honest about the type of lifestyle someone can expect.

FWIW, as far as I remember, my profile that my wife found on a dating site mainly contained a short (and humorous) description of me and a description of who I was and wasn't looking for. Where I lived was hardly mentioned. I think your situation is a little special as there are going to be a a lot of women that will not want to pursue you just because of your location so it's best to weed them out from the get go IMO (a village is one thing, a village that far north is another thing entirely).

[The Natural]

I think your situation is a little special as there are going to be a a lot of women that will not want to pursue you just because of your location so it's best to weed them out from the get go IMO (a village is one thing, a village that far north is another thing entirely).

Yes, that was exactly why I outlined it like that. It is not because I felt an urge to tell about my surroundings, but because I know that it is so different to what most women are used to and I figure that many who otherwise might have liked me, the person, could not thrive in such a small place. This is where I live and will continue to live and I feel it's of vital importance for a woman to know about. But maybe I should make it shorter, change something here and there, like the word "village" 

[GoodOlBoy]

They promise they will come and keep filling their letters with a picture perfect fantasy of being married, a family, everything a woman dreams about...... He is as real as the sun and diarrhea.... And this is going on and on and on and on and on,....... Anyway, the reality is that this man is NEVER coming over...... It is an extremely painful process for a woman, it is very hurtful,.....  So a real life meeting is a sort of reality-check. Are you a real man interested in a real relationship or are you a dreamer?? This is the question you answer for her by showing up in person.

Great post ALOE, straight from the heart, one of your best!!


GOB

[Muzh]

But for the fun of playing devils advocate.................LOL, sometimes, for a guy so involved in this process, you miss so much. Jack, as an agent, a guide, a mentor and by nature a face to face person you clearly don't understand (nor should you be expected to) what is so missing in the above. The reality is, for the person genuinely capable of developing such a situation by pen, there will be ever more to discuss over the next 6 months, the depth of which will only increase. But OTOH, for the person who isn't naturally that way inclined, it'll be lost on them as it is on you.

Atlichna! Right on the nail.

[Turboguy]

One of the things I noticed was that I always wanted to write for a while to make sure the woman was really interested before planning a trip.  With a lot of women about the time I had written enough to think they were serious they would reach the point where they felt I wasn't and stop writing.  It was sort of a catch 22.   

I do agree with the gals.  A first letter that talks entirely about where you live and not about you would not impress me if I were an FSU woman.  In my first letters I had one paragraph that briefly told them I lived in a small town just to let big city gals who would not be happy in a small town know right up front.  I would also talk a lot about myself, my characteristics, what I did for a living, what I enjoyed doing in my spare time and what I was looking for.   Perhaps in the 3rd or 4th letter I might talk about where I lived and life there a little more but I would never devote an introductory letter to the depth you have.  I think rewiting that intoductory letter might improve the results for you.

[Muzh]

Aloe, this is a great post and certainly explain much about how complicated these initial stages can be.

Now, I would like to present you with a similar scenario based on what you said below,

Anyway, the reality is that this man is NEVER coming over. Ever. And the majority of men out there in this search are like this. I've encountered tons of these men, other women have encountered tons of these men (we talk on forums), they are everywhere. The woman keeps holding on because of strong connection that she feels to him. But his disappointing and postponing the trip keeps chipping away at her. So finally the woman is driven into despair and  at last she gives up hope and stops writing to this guy.

If she isn't completely devastated and still has hope, she will start looking for a guy again.
So she starts writing to her second man who there seems to be a connection with, and the history repeats itself.
There may be short correspondances with other men in between, but eventully it stops because of incompatibility or something else.
And third "connection" one and it happens again!! (Granted this time it takes her less time to realize that it is a romeo, and yet it still hurts.

A man "meets" a RW and comunicate for 2 or 3 times and he goes and visits. Turns out that the girl has no intentions of leaving her country and just wants to have a good time.

It hurts and after the disappointment tries again and this time he takes a litttle longer to get to know her. This time she takes him for a ride by selling him all this sad stories and eventually he sends her money while she has no intention to be with this guy.

Notice that the similarity here is the inability to recognize the "player."

I was reading one of the RW forums and a specific woman's experience stayed with me. Based on her letters and conversations with her beau, you could tell he was just playing her, big time. At least I saw it a mile away. Even some Russian femmes tried to tell her to be cautious. To compund the issue the woman knew in her gut that there was something not kosher. BUT, "he writes beautiful things, you should listen to him, he is opening his soul to me, yadda, yadda." It was sad watching this train wreck. Just as it is sad watching it here.

So what's the solution? Go as soon as possible? "Ha, she's a GTG." Write for an extended period of time? "Ha, he's a keyboard romeo."

Or trust your instincts and hope for the best?

Anyone here with the answer please spill it out?

[HiTech]

So what's the solution? Go as soon as possible? "Ha, she's a GTG." Write for an extended period of time? "Ha, he's a keyboard romeo."

Anyone here with the answer please spill it out?

Keep the letters to a min.

Don't go visit the girl, go visit the place and meet the multiple girls your wrote 2 - 4 letters to.

HiTech

[SFandEE]

So what's the solution? Go as soon as possible? "Ha, she's a GTG." Write for an extended period of time? "Ha, he's a keyboard romeo."

Or trust your instincts and hope for the best?

Anyone here with the answer please spill it out?

Very nice summation of both sides by Aloe and Muzh.  I do not have the answer, but I have my experience and I am paying attention.  

I think number one is date as much as you can while in the US--it will either be good practice or a more practical approach to finding someone special.  There are thousands of FSUW throughout the US, already here and interested in a relationship.

If going (first time) or returning to FSU start writing a month or two before arriving, especially once you have plane tickets and reservations.  See how it develops and share details with those who seem sincere and available.

Don't spend money on phone calls, flowers, and gifts on people you have never met in person.

I think it is wise to approach women with English speaking skills, but this could limit options.  I look at it as a sign they are sincere about possibly relocating to English speaking country.

Those are a few things, but mostly it is still a complex situation for me with more to do.

I should add--the RWD 10 commandments are a must.

[ML]

I agree that Aloe's post is one of her best ever and certainly tells the story from the side of the females.

But there is the mirror scenario from the male side as Muzh posted (although his post was not as long and detailed as Aloe's).

So as always, it is just a crap shoot and gets back to the 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' idea.

Is it any easier for homosexuals ?  Anyone care to share their experiences ?

[Vaughn]

 

[The Natural]

Is it any easier for homosexuals ?  Anyone care to share their experiences ?

Oh no please, let's keep this thread clean