She does not speak English

[The Natural]

I forgot to ask. How is her written Norwegian?

Don't remember, but they had written tests too in class.
What I was talking about is enough ability to talk and understand the language for a normal job and for a normal marriage. I don't understand how a job in a shop where you have to communicate with a lot of people every day requires little language knowledge. If you wash floors maybe, but not when you're working with people.

Expecting a Russian woman to excell at a University level in her new language, is in my opinion expecting too much. Hey, most native people don't ever get to that.

[Misha]

Expecting a Russian woman to excell at a University level in her new language, is in my opinion expecting too much. Hey, most native people don't ever get to that.

Expecting an educated Russian woman to be satisfied working as a cashier in the local supermarket is equally unrealistic in the majority of cases IMHO  :evil:

Many RW do succeed, but it is a lot of work and takes years to achieve if they arrive not knowing the language. It is a lot easier if a woman has already studied the language of your country and community 

[vwrw]

6 years ago, I spoke zero English. I did not even know the English alphabet.  Three years later, I still was not able to speak English intelligibly for the majority of Americans. However, I knew the grammatical rules of English well and could read and comprehend texts of academic level. After studying English for three years, I excellently passed the ATC admission test and ever since I excel in all my courses.  However, only recently, maybe during last 12 months or so, I started express myself on a level that may be characterized as speaking.

My timeline is as follows
0-1 years, you develop ability to understand and speak a limited number of words and phrases.
3-4 years, you can read and understand speech well.
After 5 years, you start speaking.
8-10 years, you can speak and the vast majority of listeners gets no headache understanding you.

[acctBill]

6 years ago, I spoke zero English. I did not even know the English alphabet.  Three years later, I still was not able to speak English intelligibly for the majority of Americans. However, I knew the grammatical rules of English well and could read and comprehend texts of academic level. After studying English for three years, I excellently passed the ATC admission test and ever since I excel in all my courses.  However, only recently, maybe during last 12 months or so, I started express myself on a level that may be characterized as speaking.

My timeline is as follows
0-1 years, you develop ability to understand and speak a limited number of words and phrases.
3-4 years, you can read and understand speech well.
After 5 years, you start speaking.
8-10 years, you can speak and the vast majority of listeners gets no headache understanding you.

No offence vwrw, but I can't imagine that you were learning English in an English speaking country.  Your timeline is far too long for someone learning English in an English speaking country such as the UK or the US.   

[Misha]

No offence vwrw, but I can't imagine that you were learning English in an English speaking country.  Your timeline is far too long for someone learning English in an English speaking country such as the UK or the US.   

No, this is pretty standard. This is my wife's timeline so far:

Year 1: Introductory English at local immigrant centre
Year 2: Intermediate English
Year 3: Advance English + Upgrading English at continuing education
Year 4 and part of year 5: English 11 and 12 (i.e. high school academic English)
Year 6: (fingers crossed) will take first year university courses in English.

Oh, and for the past 2+ years she has been working and has to speak most of the day as she works with children...

[GQBlues]

...Your timeline is far too long for someone learning English in an English speaking country such as the UK or the US.

Wifey's humble beginnings with the language was using this program (likely pirated - LOL). I remember her telling me that 3 days before we met in Moscow she was consumed trying to learn as much as she can to prepare for our 1st meeting. She even brought the CDs with her and continued to 'study' on the flight to Moscow.

We did fine (or should I say she did well) when we met and didn't really need an interpreter at all.

Today, 7 years since, she's fully independent except for a few pronounciation lapses. Anyway, she went through the usual curve as many others when she first arrived. ESL, community college courses then unto University classes to her present job. More or less like many others in the same situation.

She was telling me a story last week how her language confidence got shaken up a bit when she and her manager got in on a conference call with one of their clients to get  instructions on how the client would like for them to handle his account. Unfortunately for her, the client is English and he spoke with a full-blown English accent. She tells me he might as well be speaking Swahili as she hardly understood many of the things he was saying.

She sat there with a note pad and a recorder on hand while trying to digest what the heck the guy was talking about. After the conference call, she was perplexed since she thought some of the key notes were lost because of her. Only to find out she got more out of the conference than her manager did who was a native speaker. A couple of playbacks later, they were able to generate all the proper information and proceeded accordingly.

Her manager told her..."If it wasn't for you, I don't know how I would've handled this confernce. I could barely understand what the heck he was saying". Looked at each other, then just started laughing...

[mendeleyev]

I have encountered a lot of misunderstandings in talking to FSU gals who are fluent in English and who even teach English.

Raise the misunderstandings by some exponential factor for those who are less than fluent.

Excellent observation. In my opinion it's almost impossible to be fluent in a language until you've actually lived the language.

Much of understanding a language has as much to do with how that language is lived in a particular culture as opposed to learning to "talk." Thus my apprehension with fully trusting translators. I've met plenty of University trained, higher degrees, English teachers and translators who could speak lots of English but truly understood only 50-60% of what they spoke.

Take for the example the simple phrases, "What's up?" Or, "I dig onions in my salad." If they've learned textbook English but never lived in an English speaking culture you can look at those phrases and imagine the potential misunderstandings. This isn't limited to idioms either.

As Misha can attest, another very common misunderstanding is caused by the simple phrase, "I'll call you." In Western culture that can be a brushoff, or a promise to call sometime in the next days/months without definition. Someone who speaks English but has never lived English however may be waiting by the phone all day because you promised to call.

[I/O]

6 years ago, I spoke zero English. I did not even know the English alphabet.  Three years later, I still was not able to speak English intelligibly for the majority of Americans. However, I knew the grammatical rules of English well and could read and comprehend texts of academic level. After studying English for three years, I excellently passed the ATC admission test and ever since I excel in all my courses.  However, only recently, maybe during last 12 months or so, I started express myself on a level that may be characterized as speaking.

My timeline is as follows
0-1 years, you develop ability to understand and speak a limited number of words and phrases.
3-4 years, you can read and understand speech well.
After 5 years, you start speaking.
8-10 years, you can speak and the vast majority of listeners gets no headache understanding you.

Bingo!!!! And...........+1 = Mrs I/O. As for the bullsch!t about her speaking English in 3 months, yeah, sure, pub and club chatter is about where it'll be and anyone advocating a marriage based on that, well, go figure.

To the OP, I met and am very happily married with two kids to a woman a bit more than half my age who had no English when we met. I wouldn't change any of that but I'd wager most, MOST, wouldn't have the time, money or patience to pull it off and therefore, I've consistently spoken against going that route. It's been done and severally but..............

[Rubicon]

Personally I'm looking only for a girl who know English well. As for how quickly a girl with no knowledge of the language might take to learn it, will vary greatly. My ex knew English when we started, but of course no Norwegian. Shortly after coming here, she attended language school, studied hard and learned it. Just one year after she came here, she was offered a job at a grocery shop, so that means they felt her Norwegian was good enough for them to hire her and as you all may know, anyone working in a local shop must talk the native language.

Now, almost 5 years later she still work there and her Norwegian is excellent, with an accent of course, but everybody understands her perfectly.

that type of job is a really good place for a lady to start; that is to say when she is still learning the language but wants a job and a way to improve.  other customer service type jobs such as hostess or waitress at a restaurant can help a newcomer to get further language skills.

[Misha]

Take for the example the simple phrases, "What's up?" Or, "I dig onions in my salad." If they've learned textbook English but never lived in an English speaking culture you can look at those phrases and imagine the potential misunderstandings. This isn't limited to idioms either.

Here is an example a Romanian friend of mine loves to tell. When he arrived to Canada, he worked a variety of jobs including driving a truck. One day, he was behind the wheel at the warehouse and his coworker tells him: "Go ahead, back up." My friend could not understand what he was telling him to go forward and back up.... His co-worker, no understanding my friend's confusion would simply repeat by saying "go ahead, back up" The way that my friend described it, he had us in tears from laughing so hard 

[neo]

to answer Micha and Jack as to my opinion of 'years'

My mother was a TEFL (teacher of english as foreign language) for some 15 years, she taught every nationality from russians to asians. Firstly going from cyrillic to latin is as hard as going from latin to arabic. you have to get the very basic stuff nailed that kids learn at school just to get started.

If you look at the level of english instruction aimed at most agency girls its what i call 'basic get by english' that is to say she can say how is the weather, order a coffee and demand money with menaces.

Second stage is what you would consider educational english basic - going beyond flashcard level reading and repetetition and actually learning things like written, spoken and listening in more complex scenarios, followed by the full chapters of grammar (Which i am still crap at) plus all that stuff about adjectives, nouns, verbs blah blah yada yada.

beyond that you get into specialist english, presuming your woman has intention of being more than a waitress at hooters where a basic grasp of dialect is needed or even a NYC taxi cabber where no english seems to be mandatory she needs to learn english of her trade - if shes a teacher, doctor, dentist or even hairdresser she needs to be able to communicate business english.

beyond this we are into the levels of Fluency which i believe is catagorised by something as Oxford Level 1 or some such nonsense. which means you have a good grasp of the entire language, nuances etc and can pass as a native english speaker without problem. I can think of a handful of people that did not start english when they were a child who are anywhere near this level.

my ex started lessons every week when we were married, after 5 years study i would say she is intermediate - i.e she can understand most conversations if you speak slowly and clearly. if i speak like a new yorker at 60 words a minute she will be lucky to catch 10.

back to the original point.

of course you do not need 10 years to be fluent in english to have enough to make your relationship work, as pointed out many hero members got past this stage. you can start from nothing and still paint a picasso if you have the right brush.

that said you should expect that you are never going to have the nuanced understanding of a native relationship, you will have to get by for many years with a much simpler dialect that will make you sound like a simpleton to others.

of course this entirely down to the girl in question. most pretty girls i date have shit for brains and can't remember what they had for breakfast let alone the english language, on the other hand if you have a educated and studious lady who has a knack for languages (its a certain mental skill) she could learn 3x the speed.

I am still crap at Russian and took my first lessons at 16. sometimes you just don't 'get' something no matter how much you try.

im obviously not a cunning linguist.

[Chicagoguy]

Brains, youth and a natural ability all help. I am just terrible at foreign languages. I know a man at the CIA who could be fluent in months. It was a gift. He was a genius.

I helped some friends move to Chicago from Omsk in 1994. They had zero English ability. They were about age 28 with a 2 year old. Come forward 10 years and she is an MD with 4 board certifications. He is succesful also.

With my wife we could communicate just OK for a while and now, 2 years down the road, she is much better. BUT deep discussions in English are not possible yet.

[The Natural]

Expecting an educated Russian woman to be satisfied working as a cashier in the local supermarket is equally unrealistic in the majority of cases IMHO  :evil:

Yes, that's right, but there are many considerations. FSU people have a diffrerent attitude towards job status. My ex was educated as a painter and teacher and in the beginning brought her Russian attitude with her, that certain kinds of jobs have low status in Russia and thus wasn't something for her. But as she got integrated into her new society she saw that no such stigma is attached to jobs like being a cashier here.

Here at the same place there's an Ukrainian living and she's a doctor from her home country. She kind of hinted at my wife and tried to put her down for having such a low status job. But herself, because of her attitude and personal issues, could never renew her license or hold down a job, even jobs way below her education. Her lack of English was one of the problems but far from the only one.

[Turboguy]

I do think that sometimes we underestimate our own accomplishments but when I look at the timeline my wife (VWRW) posted, personally I think she progressed a little faster than some might think from reading her post.  When I met her which would have been half way through her learning experience we could talk about complex subjects with no diffiuclty.  I am sure some who were not used to hearing a Russian speaker might have had to listen closely, but her vocabulary was probably equal to the averege American.  Not for any purpose other than stating a fact she is however intelligent and more determined and focused than most RW will be.   I do think if a woman is willing to work hard at learning English probably after a few years there won't be much you won't be able to talk about if you are willing to put a little effort into communicataing.  

Personally I think if a woman is willing to work hard to learn a language it won't be a hinderance to a relationship.  If she wants to spend all her time watching Russian TV and talking to her Russian friends her progress will probably be slower.  

I do have to agree with Chicago guy that different people have different natural ability.  I could have spend a lifetime learning Russian and not be fluent.  Languages never came easy for me.

[Misha]

FSU people have a diffrerent attitude towards job status.

Status is just one issue, and not even the most important one IMHO. As you say, the status issue with the right woman will be put aside. However, the questions remains as to what kind of job will make her happy regardless of status. Perhaps she will be happy working as a cashier and more power to her if that is the case. However, what if the job that will make her happy requires further education or a much higher level of language skills? What then?

[The Natural]

Excellent observation. In my opinion it's almost impossible to be fluent in a language until you've actually lived the language.

Take for the example the simple phrases, "What's up?" Or, "I dig onions in my salad." If they've learned textbook English but never lived in an English speaking culture you can look at those phrases and imagine the potential misunderstandings. This isn't limited to idioms either.

As Misha can attest, another very common misunderstanding is caused by the simple phrase, "I'll call you." In Western culture that can be a brushoff, or a promise to call sometime in the next days/months without definition. Someone who speaks English but has never lived English however may be waiting by the phone all day because you promised to call.

Almost impossible? I disagree. I  immediately understood the meaning of your examples and I have never lived in an English-speaking country, except for a 14-week internship in 1996. And I'm pretty sure many other non-natives also "get" it. Aloe comes to mind...

I can't think of any right now, but perhaps there's some slang they use in England that most US people don't get too? Maybe not so much the other way as the whole world watch US TV and movies and learn from that. And what about the generation differences in using the same English language? They're all native and seem to be doing just fine anyway even if they don't understand (or care to) all the hip slang or have ambitions to go to a University to be the new Misha 

[The Natural]

Status is just one issue, and not even the most important one IMHO. As you say, the status issue with the right woman will be put aside. However, the questions remains as to what kind of job will make her happy regardless of status. Perhaps she will be happy working as a cashier and more power to her if that is the case. However, what if the job that will make her happy requires further education or a much higher level of language skills? What then?

Then we come back to the fact that people and circumstances are different, also for the FSU girls. If her career is very important to her and it needs more study, then both would do well to discuss this in detail before she moves abroad. Isn't it also like in other areas of life, that one must set realistic goals? So if she is not talented in learning new languages, then perhaps it's best she stays where she is?

[Misha]

Then we come back to the fact that people and circumstances are different, also for the FSU girls. If her career is very important to her and it needs more study, then both would do well to discuss this in detail before she moves abroad. Isn't it also like in other areas of life, that one must set realistic goals? So if she is not talented in learning new languages, then perhaps it's best she stays where she is?

Sometimes, yes. The important thing is to be realistic. Truly learning a language takes time. A few months won't cut it. If she thinks it will take a few months, she won't be prepared, if he doesn't know the time and stress that will likely be involved, he will be in for  rude shock.

[SANDRO43]

Firstly going from Cyrillic to Latin is as hard as going from Latin to Arabic. You have to get the very basic stuff nailed that kids learn at school just to get started.

Having studied a few languages using a non-Latin script (Greek, Japanese AND Arabic) in my mature years, I must say I disagree.

Cyrillic retains a number of 'Latin' letters (e.g. T-E-A-K-M-O) having the same sound, others with a different sound (e.g. B-H-P-C-X), many of the rest are uppercase Greek letters (e.g. Д-Ф-У-Г-П-Л). Therefore, it's not a totally new and unfamiliar ground as Arabic script is.

I'd say a first major hurdle is represented by lexicon, since few Russian words have roots similar to those in a Germanic language like English .

[ML]

Sandro, just wondering.

How many different countries could you go to as a MOH (mail order husband) and have adequate skills to wait on tables right away!   

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, just wondering. How many different countries could you go to as a MOH (mail order husband) and have adequate skills to wait on tables right away!

ROFL, I'm afraid my advanced age - no, I DON'T look 30 - disqualifies me for MOH catalogues. As for waiting at tables, I prefer to do that comfortably sitting down .

[Chicagoguy]

I have been waiting patiently for Sandro to weigh in on this language discussion 

Or is it "patiently waiting" ?

[SANDRO43]

I have been waiting patiently for Sandro to weigh in on this language discussion  Or is it "patiently waiting" ?

Another vexed stylistic question . Purists frown on splitting verbs with adverbs and prepositions, but Winston Churchill is supposed to have quipped: "This is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put." .

[mendeleyev]

Almost impossible? I disagree. I  immediately understood the meaning of your examples and I have never lived in an English-speaking country, except for a 14-week internship in 1996. And I'm pretty sure many other non-natives also "get" it.

I apologize if my examples were lacking. Do you think they would have difficulty with Misha's example?

With respect I'd be remiss however by failing to say that practical experience tells me differently. In fact, your 14 weeks is 14 weeks more than many professional translators have experienced.

Of course you are right that American TV has impacted especially with the younger generation. All over the FSU one can see/hear some of the newer cognatives that have filtered into Russian usage. I've met well educated Russian translators who struggled with some of the "false cognates" our languages share. Quick potential examples might include:

- физик: English speakers understand physique to do with what Russians often call "form." If your lady has a nice physique, hope that the translator doesn't confuse that with what the word means in Russian--a physicist.

- фабрика: Compliment the lady on the lovely fabric of her dress and hope that the translator understands that you aren't speaking of the factory that made the dress, or that the dress reminds you of a famous Russian girl pop music group.

- Комплекция: You can tell the translator that your lady has a nice "complexion" and hope that your lady doesn't hear that she has a nice "constitution." (To be fair, that mistake isn't necessarily a bad thing.)

- декада: Your lady asks how long you've been a doctor. You answer a decade. Hope that the translator catches that because 10 days of being a doctor doesn't inspire the same kind of awe and confidence as would 10 years.

Of course some mistranslations can turn out okay. You exclaim that your lady is brilliant! бриллиант is "diamond" so even if mistranslated, you win!

Now many translators may catch every one of these. Others will not. Imagine someone having to figure out what you mean by the phrases "Just deserts" or that something was "Jerry rigged" or "half-assed." We all do this to some extent because of a lack of cultural fluency. Some of my work is done in staff meetings that include media professionals from various parts of Eastern Europe. It's not that unusual for one staffer to correct another when a translation doesn't quite make it because cultural fluency is incomplete.

[Rutherford]

If you are taking the non English road make sure you are an EXTREMELY patient man.

HiTech

He doesn't know the meaning of "patience "  until  he takes on this kind of challenge ,nothing can prepare for this  .
I thought I was  patience man , but I was wrong , well after 2 years I did improve a lot