Dr. Phil Show Attacks International Marriages Friday

[GQBlues]

These types of discussion is unfortunately more typical than otherwise. We attempt to arrive to an absolute, conclusionary end based solely on generalities and speculations. That's why there usually is a huge divide in everyone's opinion when these things are discussed.
 
I am a mere mortal and I have no way of knowing everyone involved in this pursuit personally - at any one time - and neither is anyone. So the whole argument what's representative of the men involved in this pursuit is just asinine. No one really knows that with absolute certainty. To make it worst, to exclude yourself from your proclaimed 'lesser' group is nothing more than a silly attempt to elevated your own self.
 
FTR, I for one, never even contemplated or factor any divorce statistics when I decided it was time for me to settle down. I just cannot fathom how marriages between two persons with huge cultural and lingual disparity, with all of it's added challenges and difficulties, would have a greater chance of success than those from the same town, country and/or society. Whether or not that's true, it means so very little to me, IMHO.
 
But even with an information we can all agree to be undoubtedly accurate, what's it really worth? What does it really mean? Does it really give anyone of us who got involved in the MOB some semblance of reverance for what it is we've done? Is longing for such validation somehow telling that you're lacking of it to begin with? You folks don't see this?
 
There's far more wrong in people whose validation and self-respect rely more on other people's perceived inadequacies, or worst, ignorance, than the substance of their own conviction.
 
Guys, if we in fact found happiness, why all the bickering? Why trouble yourselves with what other people may or may not feel or think?

[Gator]

I did not watch the show (yet) but reading this thread it seems that one 'stable' couple was represented along with two or three sad stories...
 

I saw most of the show courtesy of the Dream Connections streaming, and what I saw did not place International Marriages in a good light.  Nevertheless, it was not a disaster from my perspective simply because  I do not identify with any of the three men on the show (one was controlling and two seemed foolish and misguided). 
 
This is what I saw:
 
 
1.  One married man and his RW wife.   They have a baby, and are now having marital problems because his wife feels that he is nice at times but treats her as a slave at other times.  Dr. Phil categorized him in the upper 0.1% of controlling behavior, stating he was overbearing and insensitive with women, even implying misogyny.  I felt that Dr. Phil's assessment and advice were excellent.  Dr. Phil advised that a husband must "bend over backwards" to help his immigrant wife and not exploit her due to an imbalance of power.  Nothing wrong with that?  The man took Dr. Phil's advice to heart and showed every sign that he wants to improve. 
 
2.  Two single men who have written off AW and have pursued RW.  Their families are worried that RW are taking advantage of their fathers and will do anything just to come to America. 
 
      a.  One man was over 60 (admitted to telling RW that his age was only 56), had made trips, lived in the FSU for 8 months, and spent considerable money.   He was even mugged and kidnapped at gunpoint.  Yet he still thinks RW are perfect (slender, educated, family oriented,....).   He seems lonely and foolish, addicted to the thousands of pretty faces in agency profiles, and possibly fascinated by gold diggers.   He described himself as a "risk taker."  His daughter says he wants to have a baby with a RW.  He is now interested in two RW and claims one makes $150k/yr and the other $30.   Hence, they don't need his money.  Dr. Phil asked,  "How do you know this is true?"
 
      b.  The second man was obese (maybe 375-400 lbs) and totally bald.  He had married a RW whom he met via AFA.  He paid for her $100,000  medical procedure (double lung transplant), flew her mother here, etc.   She promptly divorced him.  He is now engaged to a Nikolai UW half his age and one fourth his weight.  He said UW are looking for good husbands from the West because most UW are alcoholics and don't care about family.
 
3.  A divorced RW who came to America 5 years ago for love but discovered the American man was controlling and bad (he would not turn on the heater unless she paid him).  He left her for her best friend (what a friend)!!!
 
4.  John Adams of AFA and his wife.   
 
There were many good comments made about cultural differences, the huge decision to leave your country and friends and language to move to America, the stigma of international marriages, etc.  One hilarious moment:  the 60-yo man said the obese man looked like his American wife. 
 
 

[tim 360]

I too, read GOB's posts as basically stating that no matter how you met your foreign bride, and how you treat her, public perception is what it is, and you'll all be lumped together.
What was more of an issue in my mind, was the assumption by many that foreign women are, for the most part, pursuing a green card, which I don't believe is accurate.

I would have to agree that most outsiders would tend to "lump" all the guys together, although they are different men with different qualities.  As such I think the general viewing public would say that, "they are all in the same boat,"  that boat being wanting an FSU wife. 

[Ade]

It seems that you, like GOB, are interpreting something I wrote as trying to "distance" myself from some kind of "association." I remain curious as to exactly what YOU (and GOB if he ever chooses to answer my question) see as the characteristics of whatever "association" it is you perceive.

It just seems to me that a lot of people shy away from the idea that they are somehow involved in the same "pursuit" as these strange men with strange ideas. I find that bizarre when very similar comments made by those strange men can be found repeated over and over on this and every other similar forum. When people here protest and say that those strange men are the exceptions all I can say is, read this forum, and talk to FSUW about their experiences with the MOB sites and I think the truth will out.

And, no matter how tenuous our associations really are to these strange men the ignorant will always use very broad strokes to tar as many people as possible with the same negative brush. Take a look at the 400 or more comments on Dr Phil's facebook page related to the MOB episode and I think you'll see what I mean.

[Gator]

I find that bizarre when very similar comments made by those strange men can be found repeated over and over on this and every other similar forum.

Some of what the Dr. Phil men said is indeed posted at RWD and even endorsed.  Yet, the entirety of what they said is not what I called words from someone who has embraced the sound guidance of RWD.
 

When people here protest and say that those strange men are the exceptions all I can say is, read this forum, and talk to FSUW about their experiences with the MOB sites and I think the truth will out.

I have met a few single AM and far more married AM, and I believe that the Dr. Phil men are not typical.   If Dr. Phil's me are indeed typical of the whole population of AM chasing RW, then I take pride in feeling exceptional.  And that is all that I care about.
 
Part and parcel of marrying a RW is being considered "different."  And if the marriage flops, you will be considered "crazy."   Doesn't bother me. 

[ECOCKS]

The problem, though, is that national averages (even when they are accurate and interpreted properly) are based on much longer time periods. People get divorced after 3, 5, 9, 15 even 20 years of marriage. Most of the people who have entered into international marriages with women from the FSU have been married for 10 years or less. To truly compare the statistics, you would have to compare similar populations (i.e. people in the general population married in the last 10 years or even the last 15 if you truly want to stretch it....)

I also have my doubts about valid, credible stats on FSUW-involved marriages here in the US. All numbers seem estimated (ie SWAGs) without any systematic tracking. Further, they simply don't match the numbers of breakups I know of in the group I see. While that "group I see" isn't necessarily completely random, it isn't necessarily automatically invalid either. It could be a fair sampling.

Since the American divorce stats include those with FSUW but don't appear to track them as a group the % already includes FSUW in some form.

That said, the fact that most of our marriages involve a second or third marriage for the guy and, less often but still common, a second marriage on the gal's side the figures are even worse when comparing to the CDC stats on "repeat offenders". This would appear to influence the real divorce stat for FSUW in such a way as to be MUCH closer to the group I consider.

[Boethius]

Some of what the Dr. Phil men said is indeed posted at RWD and even endorsed.  Yet, the entirety of what they said is not what I called words from someone who has embraced the sound guidance of RWD.
 
I have met a few single AM and far more married AM, and I believe that the Dr. Phil men are not typical.   If Dr. Phil's me are indeed typical of the whole population of AM chasing RW, then I take pride in feeling exceptional.  And that is all that I care about.
 
Part and parcel of marrying a RW is being considered "different."  And if the marriage flops, you will be considered "crazy."   Doesn't bother me.

I think if anyone is truly bothered by this, they shouldn't be undertaking this endeavour.   I also believe most people don't really care who others marry.

I think two things play in peoples' perceptions, though.  First, there is the economic disparity in the countries.  If AM were chasing Western European women, and there was a bride "industry" in those countries, I doubt most people would bat an eye.

I also agree with Ade in many respects, and anytime I read AM diss AW, I know I am reading the words of a loser.  It's one thing to say "I couldn't find anyone who interested me, so I decided to expand my search."  It's a completely other thing to say that, in a country of more than 300 million souls, all the women are entitled/spoiled/fat/psychotic blah blah blah.

[Rubicon]

I think if anyone is truly bothered by this, they shouldn't be undertaking this endeavour.   I also believe most people don't really care who others marry.

I think two things play in peoples' perceptions, though.  First, there is the economic disparity in the countries.  If AM were chasing Western European women, and there was a bride "industry" in those countries, I doubt most people would bat an eye.

I also agree with Ade in many respects, and anytime I read AM diss AW, I know I am reading the words of a loser.  It's one thing to say "I couldn't find anyone who interested me, so I decided to expand my search."  It's a completely other thing to say that, in a country of more than 300 million souls, all the women are entitled/spoiled/fat/psychotic blah blah blah.

So about half of the 325 million people are women; and only 70% of those are entitled spoiled fat blah blah blah...

So if I am not happy with my prospects here, I certainly am going to look elsewhere!!

[Boethius]

Are you being facetious?

[Rubicon]

Are you being facetious?

No!!  I'm a loser at relationships with american women.  have not had one since age of 17.  since than all foreign women.  lots of them.

thai, chinese, japanese, russian, south american, mexican, etc.  love them all!!!

[Admin]

So about half of the 325 million people are women; and only 70% of those are entitled spoiled fat blah blah blah...

So if I am not happy with my prospects here, I certainly am going to look elsewhere!!

My sense is that a choice based entirely (or even largely) on disenchantment and dissatisfaction would not be a solid basis for building a successful future.

- Dan

[Admin]

No!!  I'm a loser at relationships with american women.  have not had one since age of 17.  since than all foreign women.  lots of them.

thai, chinese, japanese, russian, south american, mexican, etc.  love them all!!!

And it is probably beyond the scope or RWD to delve into this TOO much - but I am left wondering if the causal relationship you seem to have settled upon is an accurate one.

- Dan

[Rubicon]

possibly true,, I had several chances to get married when much younger but was too immature and got cold feet each time.  now nobody wants me (I'm just a gigalo, everywhere I go...)

[GQBlues]

possibly true,, I had several chances to get married when much younger but was too immature and got cold feet each time.  now nobody wants me (I'm just a gigalo, everywhere I go...)

Ahh! But if I can just sit you down some and recite to you all of Monty Python's "Meaning of Life" young man, you'd swear never to lay eyes upon another woman other than those of your own...
 
But it's a free country and a free universe. We all sleep on the beds we make.

[Rubicon]

In case you guys missed this skit when it came out like I did...
Computer dating service skit w Sinatra Martin...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAqyBXFGcUY&feature=related[/youtube]

[Rubicon]

Ahh! But if I can just sit you down some and recite to you all of Monty Python's "Meaning of Life" young man, you'd swear never to lay eyes upon another woman other than those of your own...
 
But it's a free country and a free universe. We all sleep on the beds we make.

??  they were all single.  okay all but one; and she deliberately misled me.

[Rubicon]

Are you being facetious?

choot choot.  very good question!!

[Admin]

choot choot.  very good question!!

And with those last few posts, have clearly slipped away from any semblance of meaningful discourse.

- Dan

[Rubicon]

My sense is that a choice based entirely (or even largely) on disenchantment and dissatisfaction would not be a solid basis for building a successful future.

- Dan

I am enchanted and delighted with the ladies who I've met over the years...
but now very much want to settle down.  Hope that properly answers your statement.

[Rubicon]

And with those last few posts, have clearly slipped away from any semblance of meaningful discourse.

- Dan

The past is looong gone.  I live in the present and plan for the future!!

[Rubicon]

since everybody is asleep here....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb_jQBgzU-I[/youtube]

[Ade]

Ade,


Don't forget that those never reaching the walkway to the airplane simply don't count.

Simply don't count with who exactly? With the general population that view them just as a part of the amorphous mass that is the MOB industry?

IIRC a report that some guy sent his fiancee 25k to send her bed tot the US.. yes I tend to believe after what I have seen on boards that such is well within the realm of possibility.


Popular advice says that 90% don't ever sit in an airline seat but opt for the couch and wallet routine instead.  Did the show include such? If so you may be right.

No, it didn't but really, is there so much difference between the "losers" that do and the "losers" that don't? They all contribute similarly to the impression that the general population perceives.

I did not watch the show (yet) but reading this thread it seems that one 'stable' couple was represented along with two or three sad stories.. were there any couch potatoes?


Too bad that most of those actually getting on a plane don't find RWD first....


Of those that do get on an airplane searching for a marriage partner, my gut feeling is 25% go for sex, 50% riding on exaggerated expectations and around 25% who have something 'real' going.

You can find it on torrents if you want decent quality. Watch objectively and it's like a snapshot of some threads on this forum.

FWIW, if I haven't made it clear already, I couldn't give a damn how others perceive my relationship. Where I live there doesn't seem to be any weird preconceived with most people though but that's probably because it's not so uncommon here to marry outside the country.

[BC]

Simply don't count with who exactly? With the general population that view them just as a part of the amorphous mass that is the MOB industry?

I would think the couch potatoes are quite invisible to the general public... Yes there, but it's like accusing everyone of having a computer connected to the internet of being a porn freak.

No, it didn't but really, is there so much difference between the "losers" that do and the "losers" that don't? They all contribute similarly to the impression that the general population perceives.

Of course any aspect will be taken into account with what folks perceive.. pretty much universal regardless of topic and unavoidable.

You can find it on torrents if you want decent quality. Watch objectively and it's like a snapshot of some threads on this forum.

I'm not surprised if it is a snapshot of some threads.. after hanging around these fora for a few years it's impossible to note the same topics going round and round. 

FWIW, if I haven't made it clear already, I couldn't give a damn how others perceive my relationship. Where I live there doesn't seem to be any weird preconceived with most people though but that's probably because it's not so uncommon here to marry outside the country.

I think we've been asked only a couple of times over 10 years since we met.  We simply state we met while on vacation/traveling.  Here in IT it is not that unusual.  The international mix in EU does seem to take the attention away from MOB.

[Daveman]

The U.S. divorce rate has never been 50%.  That's my only point.

Now that the thread has slowed down again....


You may very well be correct here - I don't know.  Let's say you are.... So, if we go by the numbers (Dan's and yours) there is either a lower or relatively equivalent divorce rate among international marriages when measured against domestic rates.  That suggests to me (again my original point using the rates) that the men (and women) who marry internationally are no more screwed up than those who marry domestically.   If they were as screwed up, as many claim and/or perceive, IMO, the divorce rate data percentages would indicate something along those lines. 


Certainly some international couples remain unhappily married for whatever reasons (as do some domestic couples), yet still, I don't see how those numbers would be high enough to create a margin of error great enough to insinuate that international couples are more psychologically defective    than domestic ones.


It seems that most everyone has the perception that they are (more screwed up), and the anecdotal evidence - stories, friends, et al - would appear to suggest that, however, the raw data just doesn't back the perceptual evidence.   Between the two, I have to take the data as having the heavier weight of credibility.

[Boethius]

The statistics are not comparable, because most American first marriage failures occur when parties marry early (under 25 years of age).   Foreign women are also more likely not to walk early because, unlike American women, they don't have the support systems in place to do so. 
 
I'm not suggesting the international couples are psychologically defective, though really, everyone is psychologically defective.  The trick is to find a partner whose defects cover your own.
 
The bottom line, for me, at least, is that this rationale for finding a foreign wife is not based in reality, and is yet another myth that should bite the dust.