Dr. Phil Show Attacks International Marriages Friday

[Daveman]

Was Rachael the daughter of one of the men?  If so, that guy had been beaten,  kidnapped, and held at gunpoint after a "date", and she was referring specifically to her father, so she wasn't out of line, and required no response. It's basically a counselling show, it's not there to provide balance.

I beg to differ. I don't know exactly who she is how she is related though that is entirely irrelevant.  The phrase "all men..." would tend to negate the assertion that she was speaking about a specific man.   Dr. Phil is the one with the credentials and the license.  And yes, it is his responsibility to challenge such a blanket statement.  That's not suggesting that he should attain "balance" in a show addressing specific conditions, but rather being a competent psychologist with an understanding of the effects of general perceptions, he should not be an accomplice in the spread of such perceptions. 


For whatever reason, be it negligence, incompetence, indifference, or some ulterior reason, he didn't do what I assert any other psychologist in a professional setting would have done.  If it is a "counselling" show, then it should adhere to professionalism. If not, then it's merely entertainment, should be promoted as such,  and should not be equated in any way to "counselling". 

Spare me on the "attractiveness" canard.  Most people really don't care who strangers marry.  If you read the RW forums, you will read about some very strange men, and these women often put up with crap few AW would tolerate.  But then, they don't have the support systems that most AW  have.

If people really didn't care who strangers marry (or about other people's business in general), Dr. Phil wouldn't have a show in the first place, there would be no talking behinds other's backs, no posts on this forum passing moral judgments of an older man marrying an 18 year old legal adult, and most importantly, there would be no stigma attached to international marriages.  A canard? not a chance.


Yeah there are some very strange men, and here you'll read the men writing about some very strange women.  All the stories are one-sided and unreliable as any form of real data.  I surmise that while the extremes do exist in both men and women in this pursuit, most would actually fall along the average curve of normality.  And as previously mentioned, the successful ones tend to fly under the radar for quite obvious reasons. 

I have read two competing statistics to Dan's statistics.  One was by a "MOB" site, owned by an AM, a retired psychologist living in Moscow.  He surveyed his clients, and came up with a divorce rate of close to 90%.  That survey was done in 2003 or 2004, as I recall.  A sociology journal in Russia also did a study, based solely on RW foreign men marriages, and found a similar divorce rate.  I think it was done around the same time.  Another sociology journal studied RW marriages and found the most successful foreign marriages were to men from what they termed "Protestant" countries - they meant Nordic countries, Dutch Belgium, Germany, and The Netherlands.  I can't provide links to the two divorce studies, as it has been years since I read them.

Now, the two studies I noted may be skewed because they included couples who married during the worst Russian economic times.  However, I don't think any study can be conclusive unless it is long term, and includes all couples.  Most American marriages break up at around the 14 year point, so that should be the minimum for inclusion in the stats as well.

I admit complete ignorance of these studies, which if conducted reliably could be something tangible that could change the equation. I'd have to see how they were conducted, the control implementations, along with the data. 


And on that note, I'll just agree to disagree...    ..  until I see more actual tangible evidence, I'm not buying into the notion that "most men who do this are too screwed up to get a woman at home"..  The "evidence" supporting that is anecdotal. Even if there are a thousand sad stories floating around - that's still a small fraction of international marriages. 

[Doll]

Give it up Daveman.
You are really pissing in the wind if you believe that the sorry losers televised on TV yesterday are in a "different boat" than the rest of us "normal" guys pursuing FSUW.
Unpleasant as it may seem, they (we) are ALL in the same boat (ship of fools??).
 
GOB

+100

[Daveman]

Give it up Daveman.
You are really pissing in the wind if you believe that the sorry losers televised on TV yesterday are in a "different boat" than the rest of us "normal" guys pursuing FSUW.
Unpleasant as it may seem, they (we) are ALL in the same boat (ship of fools??).
 
GOB

LoL!  I can't argue with that logic.  Really though, I'm personally more in line with OlgaH in that I really just flat don't care what anyone thinks of me/us.  I just enjoy a good lively discussion that expands the thought process in some way.  There have been a couple lively threads recently which piqued my interest.   

[GoodOlBoy]

....no posts on this forum passing moral judgments of an older man marrying an 18 year old legal adult,

Well, if you want to drag that old stinky carcass back out for discussion.
 
GOB's only problem with a 40 something yr old man marrying an 18 yr old teenager is the fact that he started contacting her when she was 16 years old.
 
Then theres the rah rah crowd who say it's OK now because she's legal (18)??
 
What kind of sick cr@p is that?? 
 
GOB

[Daveman]

Well, if you want to drag that old stinky carcass back out for discussion.
 
GOB's only problem with a 40 something yr old man marrying an 18 yr old teenager is the fact that he started contacting her when she was 16 years old.
 
Then theres the rah rah crowd who say it's OK because she's legal (18) now??
 
What kind of sick cr@p is that?? 
 
GOB

so would you say then that people do care?   

[Admin]

Well, if you want to drag that old stinky carcass back out for discussion.
 
GOB's only problem with a 40 something yr old man marrying an 18 yr old teenager is the fact that he started contacting her when she was 16 years old.
 
Then theres the rah rah crowd who say it's OK now because she's legal (18)??
 
What kind of sick cr@p is that?? 
 
GOB

Now be VERY certain of what you say here GOB.

Is it REALLY true that your "ONLY problem" was the age she was first contacted?

- Dan

[Mark Davis]

LoL!  I can't argue with that logic.  Really though, I'm personally more in line with OlgaH in that I really just flat don't care what anyone thinks of me/us.  I just enjoy a good lively discussion that expands the thought process in some way.  There have been a couple lively threads recently which piqued my interest.   

Yes, You CAN argue with that logic - and you should!

HE SAYS WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT WITH THE MEN REPRESENTED ON YESTERDAY'S PROGRAM AND YOU SAY YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THAT?  ARE YOU SERIOUS??? 

I'll say it again:

• 400 pound guys spends $100,000 on a lung transplant for his girl then she dumps him - different boat
• Top one-tenth of 1% control freak treats his wife like a slave (Dr. Phil description and guy admits) - different boat
• Woman marries a man who makes her pay for heat in her own home - different boat

Anybody here in their boat?  I'm not.

It's like saying, "hey, we're all human.  Child molesters - wife beaters - all human.  Right?"  Wrong.

VERY DIFFERENT BOAT

This forum is not composed of the kinds of men portrayed in that show and yet this is how THEY want the world to believe WE are!  And you're ok with being thrown into the boat with the kinds of men they paraded on stage?  I'm not! 

I felt wounded by this episode. I think all good Catholics feel the same way when the media pounces on a priest who is accused of molesting a child. Most Catholics are good people. Most priests sacrifice their lives for a noble cause and never cause harm to anyone their entire lives. But they are all muddied by the association of these molestation stories.  With every media story on "Mail Order Brides" we are thrown in the mud with these stereo-typical bad men.

We are the people who treat our wives with care and sensitivity and value what we have - and don't want to see it spit upon.

[OlgaH]

This forum is not composed of the kinds of men portrayed in that show and yet this is how THEY want the world to believe WE are!

When I read the posts I see that this forum composed of different kind of men including "cute old goats" from the show    They come and go, sometimes return sometimes not.

[Mark Davis]

When I read the posts I see that this forum composed of different kind of men including "cute old goats" from the show    They come and go, sometimes return sometimes not.

Agreed, but not the kind who would turn off the heat on their wives when it's 20 degrees outside and make them pay for heat in their own house.  Sorry, I still see a difference - even with all of the variety here.

[Ade]

Yes, You CAN argue with that logic - and you should!

HE SAYS WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT WITH THE MEN REPRESENTED ON YESTERDAY'S PROGRAM AND YOU SAY YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THAT?  ARE YOU SERIOUS??? 

No one has yet convinced me that those guys aren't representative of the majority of men actively searching for a foreign bride on MOB sites.

This forum is not composed of the kinds of men portrayed in that show

Are you really sure of that?

[Admin]

Yes, You CAN argue with that logic - and you should!



HE SAYS WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT WITH THE MEN REPRESENTED ON YESTERDAY'S PROGRAM AND YOU SAY YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THAT?  ARE YOU SERIOUS??? 

I'll say it again:

• 400 pound guys spends $100,000 on a lung transplant for his girl then she dumps him - different boat
• Top one-tenth of 1% control freak treats his wife like a slave (Dr. Phil description and guy admits) - different boat
• Woman marries a man who makes her pay for heat in her own home - different boat

Anybody here in their boat?  I'm not.

It's like saying, "hey, we're all human.  Child molesters - wife beaters - all human.  Right?"  Wrong.

VERY DIFFERENT BOAT

This forum is not composed of the kinds of men portrayed in that show and yet this is how THEY want the world to believe WE are!  And you're ok with being thrown into the boat with the kinds of men they paraded on stage?  I'm not! 

I felt wounded by this episode. I think all good Catholics feel the same way when the media pounces on a priest who is accused of molesting a child. Most Catholics are good people. Most priests sacrifice their lives for a noble cause and never cause harm to anyone their entire lives. But they are all muddied by the association of these molestation stories.

We are the people who treat our wives with care and sensitivity and value what we have - and don't want to see it spit upon.

I suspect the perspective Dave comes from is not too unlike mine - which is to acknowledge that we are ALL broken and misshapen in various ways. There are none of us that are perfect and most recognize it.

The other thing one wise sage a very long time ago said to me is that in the realm of being human, there really is no bureau of standards that defines 'normalcy.' Sure, some of the psychs have tried to define ABNORMAL behaviors, but coming up with a universal standard for normal human behavior is yet to be done - to my knowledge anyway.

Given those as the backdrop, then you have to say that for everyone our range of dysfunction of abnormality is really just a point on a continuum somewhere - not an absolute. I mean - even look at GOB. I make reference constantly to his "oppressive cynicism" - and while *I* consider that abnormal (it certainly is for ME), it likely does not rise to the level that would place him into one of the DSM-IV categories of mental disorders.

Mark - I get it that you would feel misled and offended at the intellectual dishonesty demonstrated by Dr. Phil. That is the thing that I rail against most often with the media. When someone knows the truth (or at least, knows how to arrive at the truth) and they turn their back on it for whatever reason - that form of intellectual dishonest rankles me BADLY.

You (Mark) may not recall - but not too very long ago I was contacted by a Canadian television program wanting to do a program on mail order brides. At about the same time an academic from Georgia State University also wanted to conduct a series of interviews with married couples. I coordinated both in coming to Denver and meeting a pretty large number of married couples and participated in the filming and interviews. There are photos of the gathering and filming here on RWD. At the end of the day, the academic published her piece that was relatively favorable toward cross-cultural unions - and the television company cancelled its program. While I was disappointed with the choice to cancel - the fact is they finally recognized the piece they assembled that was balanced and fair would not attract an audience. They were intellectually honest with their filming and editing and it wasn't salacious enough or sensational enough to make it saleable in the end. TO their credit, they did NOT re-edit and sacrifice their integrity as others have done - and that is worth quite a bit.

OK - just another bit of perspective. FWIW

- Dan

[GoodOlBoy]

Yes, You CAN argue with that logic - and you should!

Sorry brother to break the news to you but if you are married to or pursuing an FSUW, you are in the same boat as those clowns you saw on TV yesterday.
 
As unpleasant as it may sound, it is true.
 
You see, we all have one common unbreakable bond (FSUW).
 
GOB

[Admin]

No one has yet convinced me that those guys aren't representative of the majority of men actively searching for a foreign bride on MOB sites.

>>No one has yet convinced me that those guys aren't representative of the majority of men actively searching for a foreign bride on MOB sites.<<

And no one will. For that matter, no one can.

As the deprecatory connotation lies with you, it is not the responsibility of anyone else to refute your position. If you choose to hold it - that is your prerogative - unreasoned or incorrect as it may (or may not) be.

- Dan

[Admin]

Sorry brother to break the news to you but if you are married to or pursuing an FSUW, you are in the same boat as those clowns you saw on TV yesterday.
 
As unpleasant as it may sound, it is true.
 
You see, we all have one common unbreakable bond (FSUW).
 
GOB

GOB,

YOU are associating yourself with those people based on your viewing of a television program.

Mark is DISassociating himself with those same people having met them in person.

The choice to associate or disassociate with another is telling in itself. The fact that Mark has a far deeper basis for making that choice is also telling.

- Dan

PS - your post reminds me of the guy from Indiana who meets someone in California and learning this new acquaintance is also from Indiana goes on and on about how they are both Hoosiers - as if that is somehow a meaningful bond. A very famous (now deceased) psychologist, M. Scott Peck, referred to such 'associations' as "granfalloons" and they are, essentially, meaningless associations.

[Daveman]

Yes, You CAN argue with that logic - and you should!

HE SAYS WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT WITH THE MEN REPRESENTED ON YESTERDAY'S PROGRAM AND YOU SAY YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THAT?  ARE YOU SERIOUS??? 

I'll say it again:

• 400 pound guys spends $100,000 on a lung transplant for his girl then she dumps him - different boat
• Top one-tenth of 1% control freak treats his wife like a slave (Dr. Phil description and guy admits) - different boat
• Woman marries a man who makes her pay for heat in her own home - different boat

Anybody here in their boat?  I'm not.

It's like saying, "hey, we're all human.  Child molesters - wife beaters - all human.  Right?"  Wrong.

VERY DIFFERENT BOAT

This forum is not composed of the kinds of men portrayed in that show and yet this is how THEY want the world to believe WE are!  And you're ok with being thrown into the boat with the kinds of men they paraded on stage?  I'm not! 

I felt wounded by this episode. I think all good Catholics feel the same way when the media pounces on a priest who is accused of molesting a child. Most Catholics are good people. Most priests sacrifice their lives for a noble cause and never cause harm to anyone their entire lives. But they are all muddied by the association of these molestation stories.  With every media story on "Mail Order Brides" we are thrown in the mud with these stereo-typical bad men.

We are the people who treat our wives with care and sensitivity and value what we have - and don't want to see it spit upon.

Mark, perhaps I misread the intent of his post, but I took it in a manner that we all viewed as something being wrong with us, because we search for and marry a foreign woman.  In that light, yeah we are all in the same boat.  Perhaps we should care more, and perhaps I have become desensitized, and perhaps I don't carry the anger because I haven't faced it first hand after bringing a foreign woman into my country.


Such viewpoints (which GoB unwittingly played accomplice in proving) are caused not by what is or isn't legal, moral, right, wrong, is or isn't anyone else's business, but rather by what individuals find personally distasteful in some way and vocalizing that distaste.  Those gut reactions are not something whih can be controlled and people will have them regardless.  So, if we were to analyze the situation further we would probably shed light upon the root causes of such stigma.   


so perhaps you could elaborate on this... why should we worry about it? or become angry?  Why not just live our lives in happiness and to hell with the naysayers?  I'm being serious, if we could eliminate the negativity (which I question the possibility anyway) but if we could put in all the effort to do it and succeed, why should be bother wasting that time and effort which could be seemingly better spent loving our wives and families to the best of our abilities? What's the actual net gain other than some elusive approval from strangers with stick clogged orifices?


Serious questions.  I really do wonder *why* people care so much... how has it adversely affected your life?

[OlgaH]

With every media story on "Mail Order Brides" we are thrown in the mud with these stereo-typical bad men.

Who we? 

 My husband and I are not. We have wonderful friends and everything outside doesn't matter. Two American women, one of them is an attorney's wife asked me for help and advice what website their sons can use to find Russian wives. Honestly, I advised one of them not to mess and carefully gave her examples of scary stories  I tried to be polite as I could. I just could not tell her that her son in his middle thirties is a total doofus and nothing and nobody would be able to help him. I think he is stuck with mommy till last days. The other guy actually does it himself pretty well updating me on his search when we meet.

[OlgaH]

Agreed, but not the kind who would turn off the heat on their wives when it's 20 degrees outside and make them pay for heat in their own house.  Sorry, I still see a difference - even with all of the variety here.

How do you know? Because they don't write "Hey, guys, I just organized a little Siberia to my RU wife"  But time to time you can read between the lines.

[Misha]

Unpleasant as it may seem, they (we) are ALL in the same boat (ship of fools??).
 
GOB

LOL!!! Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. We all like to think we are different, but we will be lumped in with them regardless of whether they represent a majority or a minority...

[Mark Davis]

Dan:

Thanks for telling me your Canadian media story.  That's awesome.  I also felt the WeTV cable show we did was not only pragmatic, but portrayed the women's point of view favorably.

You are also correct in that I would distance myself from spousal abusers.  I guess I'm just shocked that no one else would.

That group of Ukrainian girls in Kiev who protest prostitution are saying the same thing, "We're not all prostitutes."  I guess I felt like saying, "We're not all spouse abusers - and some of us actually have happy marriages."

The consensus here seems to be that it doesn't really matter.  Why try to change the media or expect anything different.  Who cares? 

I guess I do.

It's just funny that everyone here takes a 'live and let live' attitude, yet you all fight over stuff daily. 

This is a wildly interesting group.  Glad to know you.

[Daveman]

...

It's just funny that everyone here takes a 'live and let live' attitude, yet you all fight over stuff daily. 

This is a wildly interesting group.  Glad to know you.

THAT truly made me burst out laughing.  I guess we are one big happy dysfunctional fraternity of fools... 

[OlgaH]

I guess I do.

Mark, why? Is your married life seriously affected by the "Dr. Phils"?   

[Admin]

Dan:

Thanks for telling me your Canadian media story.  That's awesome.  I also felt the WeTV cable show we did was not only pragmatic, but portrayed the women's point of view favorably.

You are also correct in that I would distance myself from spousal abusers.  I guess I'm just shocked that no one else would.

That group of Ukrainian girls in Kiev who protest prostitution are saying the same thing, "We're not all prostitutes."  I guess I felt like saying, "We're not all spouse abusers - and some of us actually have happy marriages."

The consensus here seems to be that it doesn't really matter.  Why try to change the media or expect anything different.  Who cares? 

I guess I do.

It's just funny that everyone here takes a 'live and let live' attitude, yet you all fight over stuff daily. 

This is a wildly interesting group.  Glad to know you.

There are passions a-plenty at RWD. We've lost some members over passionate arguments that got out of hand, sadly.

One of the things that has always been among our strengths is there are plenty of folks here who challenge another's position - especially if it seems an extreme position. When someone comes to RWD claiming he was scammed by a RW, he is usually met with some very pointed questions to determine if he was truly scammed. When someone comes on spouting off about gender disparities in Russia that favor men, they too are faced with proving their position - and they rarely succeed when asked to prevent facts and evidence.

Dave's question is a good one. Given that the majority of the American public has a fairly negative perception of AM-RW unions - particularly if there exists an age difference or other obvious disparity - how has that tangibly and materially worked to the disbenefit of any of our members?

I recall reading some accounts in the past - but it has been a long while. It might prove helpful to refresh our collective memory as to the consequences of allowing the negativity that programs such as Dr. Phil breed.

- Dan

[Admin]

Dan:

Thanks for telling me your Canadian media story.  That's awesome.  I also felt the WeTV cable show we did was not only pragmatic, but portrayed the women's point of view favorably.

Mark,

Here is the link to the topic with photos about the Canadian TV company -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5550.0.

The anthropologist, Jen, completed at least one of the publications she was working on and sent it to me just a few months back. I'll have to see if it can be openly published here at RWD, and if so, post a follow-up piece.

- Dan

[Daveman]

Doll-
 it's only fair to ask where your statistics come from?

If people believed all they read on this or any other  forum ,they wouldn't get out of bed.


daveman-
if it was a brigade of babushka's there wouldn't have been a Dr Phil show on the subject of international marriage , and everyone knows it.Especially Dr phil and his shows producer.

it's simply entertainment ,played to the lowest common denominator,
for advertising dollars.

The babushka network outside any group of flats could do a similar show with domestic cases,
 and much more detailed!!!
The sunflower seeds empower their insights to new levels.

       

 


Now, there's truth in advertising at its finest!  Semichki Power!!!  (or whatever the heck that Russian word is) ...


Unfortunately verisimilitude often supersedes veracity...

[OlgaH]

Semichki Power!!!  (or whatever the heck that Russian word is) ...

Daveman, forget "sunflowers". It is not timely! Techno! 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv_H47ReIf0&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnF7tG9u7xY&feature=related[/youtube]