Any single, un-attached guy in Kiev May 27-30?

[Admin]

How do we know??

GQ are you honestly saying he's "different" or "better" ?? 
 
 
GOB

The photos, if you look carefully, are copied from a site called 'loveme.com' - which is AFA. Gator mentioned Smooth Operator from the old RWG site whose stock-in-trade was copying photos like these and ridiculing them no end. While the 'sport' of it may be entertaining to some, ridicule does absolutely nothing to advance anyone's knowledge and improve their odds of success in this endeavor.

For that matter, I suspect I could find some equally repugnant photos of various Cougar Cruises and/or drunken Russian co-eds - which serves only to make the point that conclusions drawn from this sort of activity are fallacious.

Now . . . GOB, you challenge GQ to support his statement that the 'type' of photos on display are equally representative of Jack's activities with his 'socials.' Turning that back to YOU - what, exactly, do YOU know about AFA 'tours' or Jack and Firstdream's 'socials'? If you have no personal experience, then on what basis can you claim they are alike or dislike any OTHER venue - or ANY venue, for that matter?!? You cannot.

Simple fact is - you are 'talking out of you a$$' with no experience one way or the other. Your ignorance and willingness to spout off in abject ignorance is a reflection of your arrogance and high-minded piety.

- Dan

[Admin]

One other point to ponder.
 
You bring one of these "ladies" home from a "social" or "tour" and have a child with her and eventually your son or daughter is surfing the internet.
 
Then you hear from their bedroom.........Is this you Mommy??.....What are you doing with that strange man??......That's not Daddy??

 
GOB

You miss the obvious (as you often do). The scenario you describe is equally as possible - in fact, infinitely MORE possible, in a union of domestic partners. The issue you fear (for others, presumably) is universal and clearly NOT restricted to cross-cultural relationships.

- Dan

[Gator]

Mr. JDG, everyone has his/her idea of fun. For example some men find a great fun tucking the money into panties of 10-foot pole girls and some girls enjoy it. And some of them probably make a great married couples. So, what.

Exactly.  Everyone is different.  Whatever floats your boat.

[Gator]

Boethius,
 
I select your posts because you seem the most shocked.  Unlike many of us men, you have not seen this facet of the AM-RW scene.
 

That's unfortunate for men who really are seeking a lifetime relationship,

Some men like trashy women.  Such men probably do not run in your social circles, yet they exist.  How do you think AWeb and HRB stay in business?

...and for normal girls who may end up at such an  event.

My ex-wife went once to a social and had too much pride to attend another.  In fact she walked, but not before filling herself with free food and champagne.    That was in 1999 when economic disparity was its greatest, and she with two children age 2 and 3.   I assert that most RW are long on pride even though they are short on cash, and they would never stoop to such antics.  And OTOH not a small percentage of RW are trashy and enjoy such public frolicking, and the behavior seen in these photos is tame compared to what some RW do at night clubs in Russia.  RM know how to have a good time with RW.
 

I think I saw three (relatively) young guys in those photos.  Most of them looked to be the age of my father, and I'm middle aged!

My ex-wife did not complain so much about the old geezers; instead she said "I had never seen such ugly men -  if they had a bright red ass they could be in the monkey house at the Moscow Zoo."        I guarantee if she had some tequila and Antonio Banderas had been at her social, she would have done a clothed lap dance.  " Scratch a Russian, and you'll find a peasant." .... Boris Pasternak. 
 

I doubt the girl in purple is a professional, Olga.  Look at her body language.  Even without seeing her face, you can tell she is not happy to be there!
...I suspect she doesn't know how to extricate herself from that situation. 

Easy, you collect your handbag, point yourself at the door, and  put one foot in front of the other.
 

[Jumper]

Bravo,Bravo
:lol:
 
 
A whole gaggle of  sunflower filled babushki couldn't have made more elephants from one fly.
 
 

[GQBlues]

....My ex-wife did not complain so much about the old geezers; instead she said "I had never seen such ugly men -  if they had a bright red ass they could be in the monkey house at the Moscow Zoo."        I guarantee if she had some tequila and Antonio Banderas had been at her social, she would have done a clothed lap dance.  " Scratch a Russian, and you'll find a peasant." .... Boris Pasternak....

 
 
Far more visual than I care to gaze at....anyway, like I said, at least for me anyway, it isn't so much the players, but rather the games people is being made to play.
 
Everyone deserves a shot at happiness but why does it seem to have to be at times at such ungracious cost?

[Admin]

How often have you been unwillingly groped by a stranger, Dave? 
I wasn't referring to dancing with some skeevy old guy. You assume she can just walk away, but not all women, particularly young women, are trained that way.

>>How often have you been unwillingly groped by a stranger, Dave?<<

I have not been traveling much the past few months - but a year ago, I was being "unwillingly groped by a stranger" about twice a month. Every time TSA decided they wanted a little closer inspection, I guess.

And BTW, I agree with you that young women (not only RW) have a more difficult time with establishing and maintaining boundaries. It is among the issues my wife and I know we need to address with our daughter.

- Dan

[GoodOlBoy]

Now . . . GOB, you challenge GQ...

GQ are you honestly saying he's "different" or "better" ?? 

Dan, I was asking GQ a civil question...not "challenging" him, as you put it.
 
GOB
 
BTW....From the tone of your postings,  I think almost everyone here knows where your "allegiance" lies.
 
 

[Admin]

 
 
Far more visual than I care to gaze at....anyway, like I said, at least for me anyway, it isn't so much the players, but rather the games people is being made to play.
 
Everyone deserves a shot at happiness but why does it seem to have to be at times at such ungracious cost?

>>being made to play<<

GQ - I am sorry, but I do not follow that part. As a firm believer in individual choice (emphasis on CHOICE), I am not sure I see anyone being "made" to do anything - even in the most repulsive of the photos. While there may have been some peer pressure or maybe some are acting out of desperation (on both sides of the equation) - to some extent, they STILL have, and are actively making, individual choices.

What did I miss in your meaning?

- Dan

[Admin]

 
Dan, I was asking GQ a civil question...not "challenging" him, as you put it.
 
GOB
 
BTW....From the tone of your postings,  I think almost everyone here know where your "allegiance" lies.

My "allegiance" lies with the truth, and not in the moralizing pious judgments some here are so comfortable with imposing on others.

My "allegiance" is commemorated in the RWD Vision (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=36) and I do not think anything I have written here is in contradiction to that Vision.

- Dan

[GQBlues]

 
Dan, I was asking GQ a civil question...not "challenging" him, as you put it.
 
GOB
 
BTW....From the tone of your postings,  I think almost everyone here know where your "allegiance" lies.

I had to sign back in as I forgot to address your query GOB. A fair question, to which I thought I already addressed. Strictly in terms of 'appearance', the folks on Jack's parties seem to be fairly balanced (men/women) as compared to the other ones shown on this thread.
 
Strictly in that sense GOB, I do think it's better.
 
But that doesn't mean I advocate socials as a way to meet a potential wife regardless of who the conductor is.

[Turboguy]

But listen, I'll be fair to Jack and say, IINM, that I believe those pics above are from socials other than his own.
 

I have to agree with you GQ.  I attended three big agency socials before ever attending Jack's.  They are as different as night and day.
 
One big difference is the men who attend.  Jack is pretty picky about who he takes.  He limits it to 12 men and he knows if he shows up with 12 losers it will look bad for him.  Most all the men on Jack's tour were from 35 to 45 with a few that were perhaps just a few years older.  I didn't see anyone with grey hair, I didn't see anyone that was not at least a decent guy and a someone most RW would be interested in.  There were a few who were probably pick of the crop as far as AM looking for RW goes.  About 50% or more of the guys on the big agency tours could not be discribed as a good catch.  There were a few good ones (I have to say that, I was there     ) but those were almost the exception.
 
The whole format is different and how the gals are picked to be there is different.  I heard a number of comments about the big agency socials to the effect that they disliked it, felt like they were at a meat market or felt very uncomfortable.  I did not hear those comments at all at Jack's tour.
 
One of the biggest differences to me was that the big agency socials were filled with scammers and all of the women at Jack's parties seemed to be sincere and decent gals. 
 
You can just look at the photos from Jack's website and some from the others agencies who do tours and it doesn't take much to see the difference.

[GoodOlBoy]

Strictly in that sense GOB, I do think it's better.

Thanks GQ.
 
You have an unbiased opinion about this topic, so I respect what you say here.
 
GOB

[Admin]

I had to sign back in as I forgot to address your query GOB. A fair question, to which I thought I already addressed. Strictly in terms of 'appearance', the folks on Jack's parties seem to be fairly balanced (men/women) as compared to the other ones shown on this thread.
 
Strictly in that sense GOB, I do think it's better.
 
But that doesn't mean I advocate socials as a way to meet a potential wife regardless of who the conductor is.

GQ - out of curiosity, does the emboldened text apply equally to domestic as well as international forms of meeting? i.e. is the idea of 'speed dating' as promoted on this website -- http://www.8minutedating.com/ (a quick example I found in a 15-second Google search), one that you would advocate?

- Dan

[GQBlues]

>>being made to play<<

GQ - I am sorry, but I do not follow that part. As a firm believer in individual choice (emphasis on CHOICE), I am not sure I see anyone being "made" to do anything - even in the most repulsive of the photos. While there may have been some peer pressure or maybe some are acting out of desperation (on both sides of the equation) - to some extent, they STILL have, and are actively making, individual choices.

What did I miss in your meaning?

- Dan

IMO Dan...when two regions are a great economic disparity, we can assume folks within these regions will participate consentually as much as we want to believe...but the impetus behind these choices is where I *think* the misconception lies.
 
I find it fairly simple to imagine without that economic disparity that many of these women won't even contemplate being seen in many of these events in exchange for the price of a free meal and champagne.
 
Mixed in all of that, I will submit, likely are women who really are in it to find Mr. Right. But on venues like these, in the company of the free-wheeling, free-spirited souls, what choices does this particular women is left with but to play along the games people play all around her, no?
 
That's what I mean being made to play.
 

[Gator]

Bravo,Bravo
:lol:
 
 
A whole gaggle of  sunflower filled babushki couldn't have made more elephants from one fly.

 

[GoodOlBoy]

Some men like trashy women.  Such men probably do not run in your social circles, yet they exist.  How do you think AWeb and HRB stay in business?

And the OP Gator??

How do you think he stays in business??
 
GOB

[GQBlues]

GQ - out of curiosity, does the emboldened text apply equally to domestic as well as international forms of meeting? i.e. is the idea of 'speed dating' as promoted on this website -- http://www.8minutedating.com/ (a quick example I found in a 15-second Google search), one that you would advocate?

My opinion Dan, I don't think it's equal for the obvious reason. It's little wonder why such things as 'speed dating' doesn't exist in the FSU in the manner we know them here in the west.
 
FWIW, in case it interest you, out of curiosity I went and attended one of those speed dating sessions with a couple of my friends before. Almost like a 'dare'. Plus, I also just wanted to know how quickly and how many women I can 'wrap with my rap'. No dreams of marriage in mind for me, and no, I won't promote that as a good way to find a wife either.
 

[Jumper]

Ok seriously now, a little reality people?
 
Ukraine is rough and tumble,from a very early age on.
 If you actually think the average young woman growing up in a particularlty sexist, macho culture, doesn't know how to handle simple advances or that style of *grouping*.....
on the bus, the mashrutka, at the disco , at a party,
I think you've been drinking the wrong kool-aid.
They know how to handle men, they deal with men from a much more macho culture daily...
 
 
As far as having fun, I  think few in the world  know how to more than RM/RW.
 If you think you are visting a land of Puritans, you might want to check your history for where those people actually settled.
 
que Cyndi Larpers' Girls just wanna' have fu'huuuun..
 
Cindy might not be your kind of chick,
but for the sake of reality lets not pretend their arn't whole nations filled with her, and she's someones wife and mother.
 
 
I do think the Babushka's likely have the whole
*old rich guy with poor young girl* thing covered..
 
 
::tosses in some sunflower seeds for those who might need a bag:::::::::::::::
 
bon appetite
 
 
i've got mine, salsa flavored..
 
 
 

[Gator]

That's what I mean being made to play.

GQ you met several RW on your one and only WMVM trip.  I guess you did not meet enough if you feel that RW are being made to play a game they don't want to play.  This is not a life or death decision.  RW are survivors and if they never marry an AM, they will manage to live, and they will have plenty of fun times [and the vast majority of RW who sign up with a MOB site never marry].  A good RW has too much pride to want your sympathy.
 

[Admin]

IMO Dan...when two regions are a great economic disparity, we can assume folks within these regions will participate consentually as much as we want to believe...but the impetus behind these choices is where I *think* the misconception lies.
 
I find it fairly simple to imagine without that economic disparity that many of these women won't even contemplate being seen in many of these events in exchange for the price of a free meal and champagne.
 
Mixed in all of that, I will submit, likely are women who really are in it to find Mr. Right. But on venues like these, in the company of the free-wheeling, free-spirited souls, what choices does this particular women is left with but to play along the games people play all around her, no?
 
That's what I mean being made to play.

Hmmmm . . . OK, I guess. I continue to have difficulty acknowledging that someone is being deprived of their choice to NOT participate. Yes, I agree they may be making that choice for a variety of reasons, including one of a sense of desperation, but it remains their CHOICE. That is, they could choose otherwise and not be forced to do something not of their choosing.

Now if you enter the hypothetical of - well, IF their financial circumstances were not so dire they may not be making that CHOICE - I can agree with the hypothesis - but there is an equally valid hypothesis that at least some of them would choose to participate no matter what their financial condition.

Maybe it is that I have a hard time seeing hypotheticals as representing a deprivation of free choice. A famous psychologist and developer of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, Albert Ellis, posits that past events and circumstances should hold no value in our assessment of a present day situation. One way to express it is - the 'shudda, coulda, wudda' commentary that most of us feed ourselves in our self-talk, is almost invariably unproductive. It does not matter what should have happened or what would have happened - what matters is what DID happen, and even more so - what WILL happen - and those are borne of, hopefully, free choice.

Not too sure I am making my point clearly - but suffice to say I appreciate your position, but am not yet seeing it as anyone being forced to do anything that is not their free choice, albeit influenced by their present circumstances (and BTW - the same may be said of both the men and women).

- Dan

[Gator]

They know how to handle men, they deal with men from a much more macho culture daily...

Exactly.  RW have battlefield experience with real beasts - drunken RM. 

[Daveman]

Hmmmm . . . OK, I guess. I continue to have difficulty acknowledging that someone is being deprived of their choice to NOT participate. Yes, I agree they may be making that choice for a variety of reasons, including one of a sense of desperation, but it remains their CHOICE. That is, they could choose otherwise and not be forced to do something not of their choosing.

Now if you enter the hypothetical of - well, IF their financial circumstances were not so dire they may not be making that CHOICE - I can agree with the hypothesis - but there is an equally valid hypothesis that at least some of them would choose to participate no matter what their financial condition.

Maybe it is that I have a hard time seeing hypotheticals as representing a deprivation of free choice. A famous psychologist and developer of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, Albert Ellis, posits that past events and circumstances should hold no value in our assessment of a present day situation. One way to express it is - the 'shudda, coulda, wudda' commentary that most of us feed ourselves in our self-talk, is almost invariably unproductive. It does not matter what should have happened or what would have happened - what matters is what DID happen, and even more so - what WILL happen - and those are borne of, hopefully, free choice.

Not too sure I am making my point clearly - but suffice to say I appreciate your position, but am not yet seeing it as anyone being forced to do anything that is not their free choice, albeit influenced by their present circumstances (and BTW - the same may be said of both the men and women).

- Dan

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Admin]

My opinion Dan, I don't think it's equal for the obvious reason. It's little wonder why such things as 'speed dating' doesn't exist in the FSU in the manner we know them here in the west.
 
FWIW, in case it interest you, out of curiosity I went and attended one of those speed dating sessions with a couple of my friends before. Almost like a 'dare'. Plus, I also just wanted to know how quickly and how many women I can 'wrap with my rap'. No dreams of marriage in mind for me, and no, I won't promote that as a good way to find a wife either.

GQ - the similarity is in the fact that men and women are organized together at a pre-arranged time and place for the explicit purpose of meeting others to determine possible partners.

It does not surprise me that you would not endorse this approach either domestically or internationally. You have always represented yourself as a very confident and independent personality and it would have surprised me if you had expressed support for the domestic parties. Still, there are others who like the idea and for whom that venue works well. Clearly the organization behind that site I linked feels they are doing something 'right' and helping a lot of people in the process.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

- Dan

[OlgaH]

Scratch a Russian, and you'll find a peasant." .... Boris Pasternak. 
 

Sorry for off topic. This phrase I remember in David Lean's movie "Doctor Zhivago" and I always was curious where Robert Bolt got the phrase from, because there is no such phrase in the novel by Boris Pasternak.