Any single, un-attached guy in Kiev May 27-30?

[OlgaH]

It's my way of saying some do and some don't.

Ah, OK. Time to time I watch a show World's Dumbest, there is no limit to what some people do 

[Jumper]

I also read your post to my macho husband, who lived in Ukraine (and Russia) for well over half his adult life, and he disagrees with you.  What he said was "A woman says "Hey, you're groping me!" and the guy will respond, drunkenly, "Dream on, bitch.  Bobyk zdokh ten years ago."

That actually reinforces my point.
The hypothetical man responds this way as he knows there are almost zero odds of *official* repercussions.
His reply  is typically macho, an arrogance stemmed from the macho culture and how it actually IS there.The reality there.
 
It's up to HER reaction and abilty to cope.
so... what's she do then?
Odds are  much much higher than you indicate that she HAS had that experience.
 

Yes, Ukraine is a macho culture.  Yes, women can be groped on subways/buses, though it is very rare in Central/Western Ukraine.  However, women face the same, even worse, in North America, and actually, far more often.

worse and far more often? on average?  really?
 
That goes absolutely against the reports of every RW i know in North America.
And that's kind of amusing considering you are talking about a  culture where machoism /sexism /public intoxication, alcholism,is tolerated at a much higher level.
Where reporting such things to the police might get action, and it might get a smirk.
Where sexual harresment on the job is rather routine,and legal action *almost* non existant.
Where spousal abuse is almost certainly higher..
yet its reported rate will certainly be lower.
 
While of course these things exists in various degres in all cultures, you are implying they generally happen far less in the FSU.
We will certainly have to agree to disagree on that one.
 

[SFandEE]

Have the openings been filled yet?

[Gator]

Does the Gaslight Lounge on US 19 still open?

I don't frequent the places except for a few rowdy nights with my younger friends, and the last time I did that was 10 years ago.  The place with the reputation for the best looking women is the Mons Venus.  It is small yet the owner makes $20,000 per night on cover charges.  This is one review:
 

Mons Venus is famous for featuring more than 300 dancers, despite its modest size and fairly typical interior (poles, mirrors and lights). Mons does attract some of the Bay's sexiest dancers, many of whom have appeared in Playboy. Couches are molded into the walls. There are no private booths, making lap dances a treat for everybody around you.

The first time I stumbled onto this scene was 20 years ago.  I had just moved to Tampa, went to an antique auction, bought a glorious item for next to nothing, and looked for a place to celebrate.  New to the area Mons Venus looked like a fun place.  I discovered I could not buy a cocktail, not even a beer, yet beautiful nude women were walking around.  I had a lap dance.  That evening I told my wife about this wild place and described the lap dance.  It was good that I did because when doing the laundry the next day she discovered I had makeup all over the crotch of my trousers (my dancer was covering an ass pimple).  We had a good laugh.
 
Turbo, a very funny description.   

If you go there however, tip generously.  The girls might look better if they could afford teeth.  Some teethless smiles can be quite attractive but with others it really doesn't help at all.

Some of these places are really trashy, and have women from the bottom of the totem pole.  Such women may be missing a tooth.  If a front tooth, they sometimes insert  a piece of chiclet gum in the space. 

[Boethius]

That actually reinforces my point.
The hypothetical man responds this way as he knows there are almost zero odds of *official* repercussions.
His reply  is typically macho, an arrogance stemmed from the macho culture and how it actually IS there.The reality there.

No, he just repeated a well known joke.  He was playing on the stereotype of UM as drunkards, and a drunkard wouldn't be groping a woman because his sex drive has been dead for a decade.  He said that groping is quite uncommon, at least, on Kyiv's public transport.
 

 

worse and far more often? on average?  really?
 
That goes absolutely against the reports of every RW i know in North America.
And that's kind of amusing considering you are talking about a  culture where machoism /sexism /public intoxication, alcholism,is tolerated at a much higher level.
Where reporting such things to the police might get action, and it might get a smirk.
Where sexual harresment on the job is rather routine,and legal action *almost* non existant.
Where spousal abuse is almost certainly higher..
yet its reported rate will certainly be lower.
 

I wasn't referring to sexual harassment in the workplace.  However, don't think it doesn't happen here.  Talk to women who were in the North American workforce in the 1960's or 1970's, and you will learn it was commonplace.  The reason it is not now is not because of Western men, it's because of evil Western feminists, and the legal repercussions employers face.

I don't think spousal abuse is more prevalent in Ukraine than in the West.  I believe the rates are approximately the same.  The difference is that there, again, men don't face legal repercussions (and I am old enough to remember when they didn't here, either), and abused women in Ukraine have very few places to turn for help.

Public groping is illegal in Ukraine, punishable by imprisonment.  No way would it just be turned away at least, not in Kyiv.  Maybe in a working class town, like Dnepropetrovsk or Donbas, there is a difference.

I've made the point before here, that harassment - catcalls, being followed, is more common here than it is in Ukraine.



Dave, the point I was making was that women can be put in situations that are uncomfortable, and not know how to react to that.  That would be the case, often, with younger women, not so much with women in their thirties or older.

[Rubicon]

No, he just repeated a well known joke.  He was playing on the stereotype of UM as drunkards, and a drunkard wouldn't be groping a woman because his sex drive has been dead for a decade.  He said that groping is quite uncommon, at least, on Kyiv's public transport.
 

 
I wasn't referring to sexual harassment in the workplace.  However, don't think it doesn't happen here.  Talk to women who were in the North American workforce in the 1960's or 1970's, and you will learn it was commonplace.  The reason it is not now is not because of Western men, it's because of evil Western feminists, and the legal repercussions employers face.

I don't think spousal abuse is more prevalent in Ukraine than in the West.  I believe the rates are approximately the same.  The difference is that there, again, men don't face legal repercussions (and I am old enough to remember when they didn't here, either), and abused women in Ukraine have very few places to turn for help.

Public groping is illegal in Ukraine, punishable by imprisonment.  No way would it just be turned away at least, not in Kyiv.  Maybe in a working class town, like Dnepropetrovsk or Donbas, there is a difference.

I've made the point before here, that harassment - catcalls, being followed, is more common here than it is in Ukraine.



Dave, the point I was making was that women can be put in situations that are uncomfortable, and not know how to react to that.  That would be the case, often, with younger women, not so much with women in their thirties or older.

Boethius,


You may not believe it but American men are often the target of extortion/false claims of harassment in the workforce now.  It is much easier for an American company to fire a man than to fire a woman.  In fact it is automatic once a claim is made.  The man is presumed guilty and he is fired.  Never mind that the woman who makes the false claim may have been wanting a promotion she did not deserve or was sleeping with a couple of executives and did not like the fact that the man talked about it.


I have witnessed blatant outrageous behavior by female managers at a major corporation who were not fired or even warned, whereas if the actions had been committed by a man they would have been immediately fired.


And you also seem to not notice that most of the lawsuits claiming sexual harassment in previous decades were brought by male lawyers charging hefty fees (40% or higher) to file these claims.


Sexual harassment in the workplace is not a misdemeanor or a crime, it is mostly just a scam to reward a non performing employee and their attorney.

[Jumper]

Your husbands joke and old stereotype ,like most things of this nature ,are rooted in reality.

That joke isn't in the west , why?
That fundamental *why* is telling.

Yes i agree the FSU is where the west was in the 60's and 70's,
and that actually supports my thoughts and what i stated was the thoughts of most RW
i know with recent (this decade) experience in both cultures.

Referring to things 30 or 40 years ago when i was a toddler doesnt seem all that
relevant to today's situation between cultures..
and to compare them now to the west in years past,  certainly reinforces that Ukraine is behind the curve in this regard.. I cant think of anyone that would truly debate that.

 Tell me how being behind this curve, makes the women of that culture and daily existence somehow less capable of dealing with it?
and somehow miraculously almost, they experience such things, far less than their NA sisters?

 I never stated these things don't happen here. I  stated that i do not agree they happen far less in the FSU.


Now  you really believe, that females are generally more safe in the FSU, or that they experience far less sexual overtones ,improper advances or outright harassment..or violence..
That's ok of course.

I don't buy it .
I simply know too many Rw here that wouldn't agree, i also know too many women in the FSU that adapt their daily lives around this reality.
(and yes this can be true in the west as well ,just not nearly a the same scale in general)
 It just doesn't match at all what i've witnessed there.
Now if they come here and live in Gary IN, i'd see your point.
but Gary  generally is not reflective of N.A.

Your whole premise would have men from a macho sexist culture, down to its laws and judicial system,  being generally far more gentlemanly and women having far less related issues.

I'll take occums razor for $400 alex.

[Rubicon]

Yes AJ I agree with you 110%

How many women in the FSU could sue a male coworker for "leering" at her and get him fired??  Maybe zero.

How many women in the FSU could claim that a coworker "harassed" her by asking her out for dinner or drinks after work??

How many women in the FSU could get their male boss fired for "harassment" because he had sex with his secretary??

How many lesbian women in the FSU can get a male coworker fired for making jokes about gays/lesbians??

How many women in the FSU can instigate vulgar and suggestive language in the workplace and than turn around and claim harassment when a male coworker responds with his own vulgar jokes which she all the sudden does not like??

How many women in the FSU can claim harassment because her boss and some male workers went to a strip club AFTER work??  (bogus "hostile" work environment in USA)

How many female managers did I and my male coworkers at a major US corporation witness having a male stripper on a conference table in a G string, at work in a glass room without soundproofing, whooping it up and playing extremely loud and lurid music, while myself and my male colleagues were trying to conduct business during business hours on the telephone??  Approximately 15 female managers.  How many were warned or fired??  Zero.  How many men would have been fired if they had had a female stripper at work in a glass conference room during business hours??  (or even after business hours) 100%!!

The only difference I see here that favors FSU women is that if their boyfriend or husband witnesses them being groped on a bus or subway he can get away with kicking the snip out of the groper, whereas here in the "civilized" USA a man cannot beat the snip out of a true groper/harasser without going to jail.

[Boethius]

Ukrainians also have a lot of jokes about women enjoying being raped.  Am I to assume, based on your hypothesis, that this, too, is "rooted in reality"?

There is far less rape in Ukraine than there is in North America.  That is a fact.  Ukraine's criminal code has harsh criminal penalties for groping, harsher than in my country.  That is a fact.  Gropers face severe physical assault, with no ability to bring a criminal complaint.  That is a fact.

Women are far safer in Ukraine than they are in most American cities.  There are very few places a woman cannot walk in most Ukrainian cities.  I can't say the same about my city.  Can you?

As for sexual harassment, my point was not about what existed 30 years ago, it was about what men will get away with when they can. 

Rubicon, men cannot get fired in my province for any of those things.  Reprimanded, yes.  Fired, no.  I gave examples previously. 

Groping, despite what AJ states, is very rare on Ukrainian public transport.

[Rubicon]

Ukrainians also have a lot of jokes about women enjoying being raped.  Am I to assume, based on your hypothesis, that this, too, is "rooted in reality"?

There is far less rape in Ukraine than there is in North America.  That is a fact.  Ukraine's criminal code has harsh criminal penalties for groping, harsher than in my country.  That is a fact.  Gropers face severe physical assault, with no ability to bring a criminal complaint.  That is a fact.

Women are far safer in Ukraine than they are in most American cities.  There are very few places a woman cannot walk in most Ukrainian cities.  I can't say the same about my city.  Can you?

As for sexual harassment, my point was not about what existed 30 years ago, it was about what men will get away with when they can. 

Rubicon, men cannot get fired in my province for any of those things.  Reprimanded, yes.  Fired, no.  I gave examples previously. 

Groping, despite what AJ states, is very rare on Ukrainian public transport.

I have had several friends fired for "alleged" sexual harassment.  It does not matter if there is any proof whatsoever; fired, gone, career possibly destroyed for many years. 

When I was in the military I witnessed a female soldier bragging about making a false claim of rape of a guy she did not like, and bragging that he went to prison.

So excuse me if I do not know or care what was happening in the 1960's and 1970's.  The fact is that there were so many class action lawsuits that many corporations agreed to hire almost nothing but female managers from than on.  Both major corporations I worked for had at least 90% female managers--men need not apply. 

One corporation was a major loan company.  At least 90% of the loan agents were men.  We averaged 5K a month.  At least 90% of the processors were female.  They made anywhere from 12K to 20K a month (times were a booming).  Over 90% of the managers were female.  They made 20K to 30k per month.  The only male processor I knew was gay.  Maybe he spoke the language.  It is true that the senior execs above were 99% male, however those are a completely different generation and have absolutely nothing to do with myself and most other average men.

I did feel very safe walking around Ukraine, and women do walk and take the bus everywhere.  That is certainly not true in many parts of LA and Long Beach CA which can be very dangerous.  So your argument about groping or rape is probably true, however I think that women in FSU do face more real discrimination in the workplace than women in USA.

[Boethius]

My point is not that women in Ukraine's workplaces don't face harassment.  My point is that it is not because of Ukraine's "macho culture" that they endure this, but rather, because Western men face lawsuits for similar behaviour. 

I was not referring to the 1960's.  In my province, today, no man would be fired for any of the descriptions you described.  In fact, in the legal profession, men who sexually harass women typically face no consequences.  To bring a charge, in what is still a male dominated profession, would be death to a career.

[Rubicon]

My point is not that women in Ukraine's workplaces don't face harassment.  My point is that it is not because of Ukraine's "macho culture" that they endure this, but rather, because Western men face lawsuits for similar behaviour. 

I was not referring to the 1960's.  In my province, today, no man would be fired for any of the descriptions you described.  In fact, in the legal profession, men who sexually harass women typically face no consequences.  To bring a charge, in what is still a male dominated profession, would be death to a career.

The legal profession is entirely different than jobs which many of us average men work.  It may be true that men can get away with a lot in that profession.  I have certainly heard some juicy stories about LA and Hollywood attorney's.  Than again I have read a story about a major LA attorney who was fired for harassment and had to spend major bank to prove that the allegation was false.  I think it is very likely that Canadian laws and company's are easier on men than company's are in California.  Usually when I do hear stories of harassment which I think are true it involves a man who is at the pinnacle of society.  Women like to complain about these men who are at the pinnacle, yet these men have absolutely nothing in common with myself and most other men (Arnold Schwarzeneggar groping unknown numbers of women during his career in Hollywood??)

[Boethius]

It is no different in teaching, in construction, in engineering, etc., at least, where I live.  The one area where it is different is in banking, probably because they are federally regulated.

Power does afford some protection, but in law, for the most part, women who are harassed are young, and they keep quiet because it is still a male dominated profession and they know that if they make a stink, they can kiss their careers goodbye.

[Jumper]

I did not say as some fact that groping was more prevalent on public transport exclusively, it was a general  example mentioned along with several others forms of
 intimidation in various areas of daily life.

Yes I do happen to feel that in a macho culture ,with less laws ,and less enforcement,
the various levels of sexual intimidation are higher than ,in some  less macho culture with  more stringent and tightly enforced laws. 
That is my opinion. It is also based on living in eastern europe for several years, and accounts from women i know when living there.

So I challenged your statement made ,that such things (not just the bus)happen far less in the FSU.
I do not buy it ,primarily from having witnessed far more harrassment there ,than here.
 
You have an opinion such levels of sexual intimidation in ukraine are far less,,
I do not believe those are facts ,they are opinion?

Also lets try to be realistic and acknowledge key cultural difference that play a big role in
the limited area of public transport ok?
 Certainly the amount of people, their economic and socio backgrounds very greatly from one country to another.
 
**
Yes Ukrainians do have a lot of jokes about rape. *why*?
answer the fundamental reason why that is?

 simply they are fans of  more crude humor ?
or such taboo topics are more accepted for some reason ?
Why would that reason be?
Why are rape jokes somewhat taboo here?

is that cultural ? it just might be?
interesting huh?

Now wiki world rape statistics and point out the discrepancies in countries ,
and of course never mind that part that 50% of rapes are thought by most professionals to not be reported in NA,

What exactly do you think the unreported percentages are in Ukraine?
would those be about the same? or higher?
would the culture itself,the landscape of the judicial system and laws..
have any role in that percentage of unreported?
and how would that effect the overall statistics?

only 10% of western men raped allegedly report it. why?
What percent of UM raped report it?
would it be different percent ,perhaps vastly different?
 get the idea?
lets not make some joke of that.

It really doesn't matter what laws are on the books , if they are not enforced at the same level.It is culturally different, to deny this is silly to me.

**
Women are far safer in the FSU?
Again i see no real facts yet, to back that up that couldn't be challenged by specific ethinic backgrounds and specific regional cultural areas being significantly higher.
Yes in some big picture if you factor in the poor areas of large NA cities , i can see murder statistics being quite a bit higher  ,so relative safety less.
i concede that.

Now  in the original context of a young girl knowing how to remove a hand from a man dancing with her , i just don't think the average  NA woman has some inherent advantage on her average FSU sister
from the NA womans far greater danger and more exposer to sexual harassment.

  I do not know what cities you have been to , or what regions within those cities ,
but i can without reservations tell you that a woman can walk alone ,at night, in downtown chicago more safely than any provincial Ukrainian city i know of.
 Completely subjective ,but I don't know of any UW that will routinely travel in their own known residential or suburban area  late at night alone.
They will sleep over at  friends house, or sleep over at work before risking travel alone at night.
While in many suburban areas here, woman would walk at most any time of night in their known neighborhoods  ,to  go home.
Yes, there are all kinds of variances to that theme here in this culture and by region..even within the cities themselves for sure,
 yet it seems more  universal that they often wont do so over there.

exactly how many locks are on your front door? one maybe  two?

how many on the average flat? 

I don't even lock my house ,ever, and can leave my keys in the car,
and I live 40 miles from Gary Ind. The murder capitol of the US.
 
so i throw your challenge back and ask you to name  just one city or region in ukraine i could do that routinely?


**
Your point on sexual harrassment is that men anywhere ,will get away with what they can!
ok!  got it !! and i agree.. never stated otherwise.

you are the one implying otherwise?
your whole premise that in a country and macho culture rife with corruption and slack in law enforcement ..
One where many men can get away with most anything ,yet somehow less ,far less  towards women ,than western men with more things restricting their actions?

It just seems  rather convenient to forget that UM can ,and often do, get away with far more in Ukraine in many area's, and specifically in that area..

you keep citing ,you know women here who have experienced problems ,and find it routine?
  Do you truly believe if they were working in ukraine it would be far less?or less routine?
i mean you seriously have me wondering what is in the water up in Canada.
Only fort mac should be on the FSU level.
but you where after all comparing to NA,
  Canada averaged with the US populace and laws statistically in this regard.
The laws are extreme here,and corporations are very sensitive.

 Men working for me in the mechanics area,  can't have a calender up at work with girls in bikinis on dirt bikes. Women complain, they have ,and did.

Think they could at a motorcycle dealership in Ukraine?

 More importantly do you truly think anyone would even THINK to say anything about it?
It simply wouldn't cross a dev's  mind ,,and if she did ,and made some fuss with the owner,she would likely get fired. Certainly not the men. believe it.

It is a very fundamental difference you are just ignoring because it isn't convenient.

 While other points have merit..and some real data,like the overall safety one.. , 
This part of your argument is truly bordering on silly to me.

Sexual harrassment certainly exists in the west, no one has stated otherwise?
but for you to imply it far less in Ukraine seems way out of touch.

It seems downright accepted there..When i lived in EE, i've just known far too many women that expected that in the workplace ,accepted it was part of employment as matter of factly as you portray it to exist far less.

Again there are many crude jokes about it as well there,
and yes, I do believe there are fundamental reasons for those jokes to exist..

It's Better to laugh than to cry.

I know it happens , that it exists, but  I've never dated a western woman who had ran into any serious sexual harrassment on the job.. minor maybe , major no.
I have yet to date any Czech, or RW ,that hasn't run straight into that and changed jobs over it.not one.

So we obviously are not going to change each others views, that are based on real life experiences of our own,  our significant others, or our close friends,
and we obviously have experienced a far different FSU in this regard.

 

         

[Maxx2]

I did not say as some fact that groping was more prevalent on public transport exclusively, it was a general  example mentioned along with several others forms of
 intimidation in various areas of daily life.

Yes I do happen to feel that in a macho culture ,with less laws ,and less enforcement,
the various levels of sexual intimidation are higher than ,in some  less macho culture with  more stringent and tightly enforced laws. 
That is my opinion. It is also based on living in eastern europe for several years, and accounts from women i know when living there.

So I challenged your statement made ,that such things (not just the bus)happen far less in the FSU.
I do not buy it ,primarily from having witnessed far more harrassment there ,than here.
 
You have an opinion such levels of sexual intimidation in ukraine are far less,,
I do not believe those are facts ,they are opinion?

Also lets try to be realistic and acknowledge key cultural difference that play a big role in
the limited area of public transport ok?
 Certainly the amount of people, their economic and socio backgrounds very greatly from one country to another.
 
**
Yes Ukrainians do have a lot of jokes about rape. *why*?
answer the fundamental reason why that is?

 simply they are fans of  more crude humor ?
or such taboo topics are more accepted for some reason ?
Why would that reason be?
Why are rape jokes somewhat taboo here?

is that cultural ? it just might be?
interesting huh?

Now wiki world rape statistics and point out the discrepancies in countries ,
and of course never mind that part that 50% of rapes are thought by most professionals to not be reported in NA,

What exactly do you think the unreported percentages are in Ukraine?
would those be about the same? or higher?
would the culture itself,the landscape of the judicial system and laws..
have any role in that percentage of unreported?
and how would that effect the overall statistics?

only 10% of western men raped allegedly report it. why?
What percent of UM raped report it?
would it be different percent ,perhaps vastly different?
 get the idea?
lets not make some joke of that.

It really doesn't matter what laws are on the books , if they are not enforced at the same level.It is culturally different, to deny this is silly to me.

**
Women are far safer in the FSU?
Again i see no real facts yet, to back that up that couldn't be challenged by specific ethinic backgrounds and specific regional cultural areas being significantly higher.
Yes in some big picture if you factor in the poor areas of large NA cities , i can see murder statistics being quite a bit higher  ,so relative safety less.
i concede that.

Now  in the original context of a young girl knowing how to remove a hand from a man dancing with her , i just don't think the average  NA woman has some inherent advantage on her average FSU sister
from the NA womans far greater danger and more exposer to sexual harassment.

  I do not know what cities you have been to , or what regions within those cities ,
but i can without reservations tell you that a woman can walk alone ,at night, in downtown chicago more safely than any provincial Ukrainian city i know of.
 Completely subjective ,but I don't know of any UW that will routinely travel in their own known residential or suburban area  late at night alone.
They will sleep over at  friends house, or sleep over at work before risking travel alone at night.
While in many suburban areas here, woman would walk at most any time of night in their known neighborhoods  ,to  go home.
Yes, there are all kinds of variances to that theme here in this culture and by region..even within the cities themselves for sure,
 yet it seems more  universal that they often wont do so over there.

exactly how many locks are on your front door? one maybe  two?

how many on the average flat? 

I don't even lock my house ,ever, and can leave my keys in the car,
and I live 40 miles from Gary Ind. The murder capitol of the US.
 
so i throw your challenge back and ask you to name  just one city or region in ukraine i could do that routinely?


**
Your point on sexual harrassment is that men anywhere ,will get away with what they can!
ok!  got it !! and i agree.. never stated otherwise.

you are the one implying otherwise?
your whole premise that in a country and macho culture rife with corruption and slack in law enforcement ..
One where many men can get away with most anything ,yet somehow less ,far less  towards women ,than western men with more things restricting their actions?

It just seems  rather convenient to forget that UM can ,and often do, get away with far more in Ukraine in many area's, and specifically in that area..

you keep citing ,you know women here who have experienced problems ,and find it routine?
  Do you truly believe if they were working in ukraine it would be far less?or less routine?
i mean you seriously have me wondering what is in the water up in Canada.
Only fort mac should be on the FSU level.
but you where after all comparing to NA,
  Canada averaged with the US populace and laws statistically in this regard.
The laws are extreme here,and corporations are very sensitive.

 Men working for me in the mechanics area,  can't have a calender up at work with girls in bikinis on dirt bikes. Women complain, they have ,and did.

Think they could at a motorcycle dealership in Ukraine?

 More importantly do you truly think anyone would even THINK to say anything about it?
It simply wouldn't cross a dev's  mind ,,and if she did ,and made some fuss with the owner,she would likely get fired. Certainly not the men. believe it.

It is a very fundamental difference you are just ignoring because it isn't convenient.

 While other points have merit..and some real data,like the overall safety one.. , 
This part of your argument is truly bordering on silly to me.

Sexual harrassment certainly exists in the west, no one has stated otherwise?
but for you to imply it far less in Ukraine seems way out of touch.

It seems downright accepted there..When i lived in EE, i've just known far too many women that expected that in the workplace ,accepted it was part of employment as matter of factly as you portray it to exist far less.

Again there are many crude jokes about it as well there,
and yes, I do believe there are fundamental reasons for those jokes to exist..

It's Better to laugh than to cry.

I know it happens , that it exists, but  I've never dated a western woman who had ran into any serious sexual harrassment on the job.. minor maybe , major no.
I have yet to date any Czech, or RW ,that hasn't run straight into that and changed jobs over it.not one.

So we obviously are not going to change each others views, that are based on real life experiences of our own,  our significant others, or our close friends,
and we obviously have experienced a far different FSU in this regard.

 

       

You seem a bit testy AJ. Perhaps you are suffering from the same malady that most American men do, lack of a sex life? I would maintain that free love ways of the Ukraine is the reason why Ukrainian women are safer on the streets in the Ukraine than in our pent up States. 

[BC]

When comparing different countries, it's important to understand that each has it's own developmental timelines, different cultural tolerance levels and laws.. each may change over time.

Good or Bad is relative.. have to accept each country on it's own.  I've had to do this many times over living in different countries.  Haven't found one I really could not accept, but there is one particular country where the prevailing 'no tolerance' attitude is quite oppressive.. I'll let you guess which.

Too much of a good thing can also be bad.

[Muzh]

Boethius,


You may not believe it but American men are often the target of extortion/false claims of harassment in the workforce now.  It is much easier for an American company to fire a man than to fire a woman.  In fact it is automatic once a claim is made.  The man is presumed guilty and he is fired.  Never mind that the woman who makes the false claim may have been wanting a promotion she did not deserve or was sleeping with a couple of executives and did not like the fact that the man talked about it.


I have witnessed blatant outrageous behavior by female managers at a major corporation who were not fired or even warned, whereas if the actions had been committed by a man they would have been immediately fired.


And you also seem to not notice that most of the lawsuits claiming sexual harassment in previous decades were brought by male lawyers charging hefty fees (40% or higher) to file these claims.


Sexual harassment in the workplace is not a misdemeanor or a crime, it is mostly just a scam to reward a non performing employee and their attorney.

My, my, my. Where's this place?
 
Let me share my own personal experience in the "liberal" State of NY. I know/knew 3 "gentlemen" who would elicit pure disgust every time they opened their sewer trap. One actually told my supervisor right after she had a histerectomy that her poor husband would not be able to feel anything. That was one of the times he saw me jump from my chair and he would run for safety. Management response? "You know him, he's harmless." Keep in mind that I was counseled for exhibiting violent behavior towards him.
 
Two of them retired with full pension and the other one is management.
 
Scam, sure.
 
BTW, I know the cousin of a friend of mine who is a slavic meatheat. Totally oblivious of his derrogatory reference to women. He got a job working for Tax & Finance. His problem was he was placed in a bureau of 25 women and two men, him being the second guy. He tells the story that he was in the coffee room talking to the other guy and said "the bitch just doesn't get it." referring to some process. He got fired for sexual harrasment. He still says he didn't do anything wrong.
 
The difference?
 
My place of work is 75% male professionals.

[Gator]

 
 
A new post about Jack in a less active thread:
 
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13518.msg267957#msg267957
 

Jack is an American you can call in Texas.   Jack has many American men who met their wives through Jack, his approach or contacts.   Jack is definitely a guy every American man should give a call to and listen to prior to making the plunge to visit the FSU.   
 

[Jumper]

lol not testy Maxx..
 
Just a topic that hits close to home, and obviously and admittedly jades my view.
My experiences, or S/O's experiences ,could be completely random and not indicative.
I do acknowledge that.
 
Yet living in Czech rep. and other *macho* cultures like greece and brazil as well,
(which also are more comparable to the west some decades ago) i've just never seen anything to make me think that kind of thing happens far less in any of those countries, or the FSU , than in the west in general. 
 
I could be completely wrong, wouldn't be the first time, and surely wouldn't be the last..
 
 

[Rubicon]

My, my, my. Where's this place?
 
Let me share my own personal experience in the "liberal" State of NY. I know/knew 3 "gentlemen" who would elicit pure disgust every time they opened their sewer trap. One actually told my supervisor right after she had a histerectomy that her poor husband would not be able to feel anything. That was one of the times he saw me jump from my chair and he would run for safety. Management response? "You know him, he's harmless." Keep in mind that I was counseled for exhibiting violent behavior towards him.
 
Two of them retired with full pension and the other one is management.
 
Scam, sure.
 
BTW, I know the cousin of a friend of mine who is a slavic meatheat. Totally oblivious of his derrogatory reference to women. He got a job working for Tax & Finance. His problem was he was placed in a bureau of 25 women and two men, him being the second guy. He tells the story that he was in the coffee room talking to the other guy and said "the bitch just doesn't get it." referring to some process. He got fired for sexual harrasment. He still says he didn't do anything wrong.
 
The difference?
 
My place of work is 75% male professionals.

A major loan corp in California which favored women to men in hiring probably 4 to 1.  Women were given higher paying processor positions automatically, as well as being 90% of direct management.

[GQBlues]

A major loan corp in California which favored women to men in hiring probably 4 to 1.  Women were given higher paying processor positions automatically, as well as being 90% of direct management.

Rubicon-
 
That may well be true but I attribute to at least 3 reasons why that may be the case(s) today.
 
1. The ratio of graduating female students outnumbers male students. These types of jobs require at least a university degree.
 
2. Females are prone to be on the number/financial sectors whereas males are more concentrated on the technical sectors, and...
 
3. Entrepreneurship/internet commerce is still a male-driven industry as of now.

[Rubicon]

Rubicon-
 
That may well be true but I attribute to at least 3 reasons why that may be the case(s) today.
 
1. The ratio of graduating female students outnumbers male students. These types of jobs require at least a university degree.
 
2. Females are prone to be on the number/financial sectors whereas males are more concentrated on the technical sectors, and...
 
3. Entrepreneurship/internet commerce is still a male-driven industry as of now.

A University degree was absolutely not a requirement; merely aptitude and positive attitude to do the job were requirements.

[GQBlues]

A University degree was absolutely not a requirement; merely aptitude and positive attitude to do the job were requirements.

Not too long ago, equivalency in terms of experience (still do today in very few, limited *unskilled* industries) takes the place of a 'degree', or sometimes a 'high school' diploma was enough.
 
I won't doubt what you say is true, but in present day market dealing in finances, especially in our latest recessionay market, a person with a degree will trump any person without but smiles all the time. But that's just IMHO.
 
At the present time, even those WITH a degree are finding difficult sailing outside of the unemployment lines as it is, let alone 'nice' folks armed only with a high school diploma. 

[Maxx2]

A major loan corp in California which favored women to men in hiring probably 4 to 1.  Women were given higher paying processor positions automatically, as well as being 90% of direct management.

That is the case with Government jobs as well. SOC of this board has told me that women and minorities are the only ones given advancements in his department of the Federal government.

[Rubicon]

Not too long ago, equivalency in terms of experience (still do today in very few, limited *unskilled* industries) takes the place of a 'degree', or sometimes a 'high school' diploma was enough.
 
I won't doubt what you say is true, but in present day market dealing in finances, especially in our latest recessionay market, a person with a degree will trump any person without but smiles all the time. But that's just IMHO.
 
At the present time, even those WITH a degree are finding difficult sailing outside of the unemployment lines as it is, let alone 'nice' folks armed only with a high school diploma. 

Exactly correct.  While I do have a college degree, it was simply not required because the phones were ringing off the hook.  Remember the refi frenzy that went on when the Mortgage business was booming, and I mean really booming!!

The top processors were making 50K a month!!

Later on the guy who hired me was taken out of the building in handcuffs by the FBI.  He tried to extort some various companies doing business with ours.  The owner and founder of the company was forced out by a major Corp which bought him out.  Apparently he and some other senior execs had a lot of cocaine fueled parties with any and all willing female processors.  Later on after he left the female processors who were on meth or other drugs to work 18 out of 24 hours to fund as many loans as possible were also forced out.