One Man's Story

[Jumper]

Ahhhh.... But some here on RWD need hard "evidence" , not just rank speculation. 

Otherwise you are accused of "talking out of your arse".
 
GOB

lol ok -

Let's be very clear GOB.

I made speculation and opinion on the whole agency scene in the FSU, in  general.

That is far different than making accusations against a specific agency, or person.

Actually I do have first hand experience and evidence.There are agencies i could point to direct unethical business practices and support my claims.

 Yet personally I find that if men are so silly to not be able to understand these kinds of things in general, then they probably cant be helped by pointing out some specific cases ,with so many already pointed out for them.

Perhaps ironically, the one person you attacked specifically, I do have first hand experience with, over a decade, and can say is one i would recommend a new guy to contact ,if he was looking to find  an agency,or simply logistical help for his trip to the FSU.

Of all the corrupt agencies dealing with this pursuit in  the FSU.
i find that you singled out one of the few ,that i know from first hand experience to be sincere,and with very good people in Ukraine.

To me this simply suggest you do not have much experience in Ukraine  with dating agencies there.
 
Hey ! That's a good thing!

but one that hardly puts you in a good position to know which ones would be a good choice for someone actually seeking an agency,or wanting to use one..


 If you find the agencies as a whole distasteful,or socials or anything else in life,
that's an opinion and a  generality, not specific accusation aimed at one business or individual

If i stated all  used car salesmen are slimy,
and i feel the need to shower after trying to buy an automobile -

That is far different than saying John Doe, at ABC cars sales ,is dishonest and uses illegal practices in his sales .Or making up  a hypothetical story portraying john doe as unethical and practicing something illegal.


 I respect your opinions, I think you are an intelligent   man, and that you know the differences well, so the martyr card just doesn't work with me.
 

[Chelseaboy]

I personally feel that the girl bleau mentioned should be "outed",with her photo,if what he has been told about her is confirmed.
Her and her agency are misleading men.She has a Russian boyfriend,and has no interest in marrying a foreign man,and i strongly suspect many agency girls are the same.
The more of these agency girls,and the agencies they work for, that are "outed" the better.
It has been the situation in the past,when a man has complained about a girls lack of sincerity on meeting her,that her identity has been protected,because other men feel that he could just be a scorned man,dating out of his league.
Well,in this instance that would not be the case.
 
 

[tim 360]

10 years?  Met 8 women?  The duffer should have been better informed.  He should have spent 
a few hours reading here and saved himself 10 years of woe. 

[BC]

I personally feel that the girl bleau mentioned should be "outed",with her photo,if what he has been told about her is confirmed.
Her and her agency are misleading men.She has a Russian boyfriend,and has no interest in marrying a foreign man,and i strongly suspect many agency girls are the same.
The more of these agency girls,and the agencies they work for, that are "outed" the better.
It has been the situation in the past,when a man has complained about a girls lack of sincerity on meeting her,that her identity has been protected,because other men feel that he could just be a scorned man,dating out of his league.
Well,in this instance that would not be the case.

I think outing her here is a bad idea.  IIRC this ain't an anti-scam board, but instead one promoting common sense and the best ways to meet fsu women of like interests.

As far as reporting personal experience with agencies, fine.. but going as far as pegging down an individual is best left between an infringed party and legal channels.

JMHO

[Rubicon]

I wager that before his epiphany he would have argued that the women were real, that yes they all loved him and that the agencies were all legitimate and as pure as freshly fallen snow....

 

[Boethius]

I think outing her here is a bad idea.  IIRC this ain't an anti-scam board, but instead one promoting common sense and the best ways to meet fsu women of like interests.

Yes, especially one who is the friend of the lady he is visiting.

[Chelseaboy]

So,it's better for more men to waste time,money and emotion,visiting this pro-dater,lining hers and the agencies pockets,rather than outing her.?
Interesting.
 
 

[Vincenzo]

Looking at his photo, I would say that he's 55 years old, grumpy and very unfriendly.


He says that he doesn't date anybody who is 20 years younger than he. Does it mean that 15-19 years difference is Ok for him?

If he is looking for a 45-55 year old woman with 2 kids, even the worst agencies will try to link them together because really nobody writes to these women, even a 55 year old grandfather will write to girls fresh from school. But even older women don't like trash.

[Turboguy]

One of the problems when you start "outing people" is that sometimes there are two sides to the story.  I am not saying that may be true in this case but once you start something it is hard to stop and hard to draw lines.  There have been some sites devoted to listing scammers and many of those listed were scammers but some were guys who felt hurt and rejected because they made a trip and just had no chemistry and they were out to get revenge.  Its a good thing to stay away from even though it could help warn people.

[Boethius]

So,it's better for more men to waste time,money and emotion,visiting this pro-dater,lining hers and the agencies pockets,rather than outing her.?
Interesting.

A simple solution to that is don't use agencies.

[bleau]

I think outing her here is a bad idea.  IIRC this ain't an anti-scam board, but instead one promoting common sense and the best ways to meet fsu women of like interests.

As far as reporting personal experience with agencies, fine.. but going as far as pegging down an individual is best left between an infringed party and legal channels.

JMHO

After reading this thread again and thinking about this I think BC is correct. Also, when this girl found out I was an American visiting a girl in her city, I doubt very seriously she would have much to say to me especially if she was being truthful with my lady concerning what she does with this agency.
I would not just come out and ask her if she thought she and her agency were scamming men.
I sure as heck not want Boris the hulk paying me a visit during the night wanting to break my knees.

I also think maybe I would personally have to see this scam in action to jump a on forum and warn people about it. If I found this to be true by just talking with this girl then maybe a "heads up" in this city would be more appropriate.

I met my lady on a free site where there was no intervention between her and an agency and she has never been on a paying agency. She told me she has no idea how a paying agency works only what a few girls on a paying agency has told her.

Personally I would never use a paying agency because I'm an independent spirit and care not to deal with a go between with a lady. I met my lady "straight up", got her phone numbers and address right at the beginning of our correspondence. She has been truthful with me about everything, I can call or write her anytime I wish to do so. I had "my friend" the translator work with us not one from an agency so I know the truth is there. When I visit her I will be staying with her, not in a hotel or apartment waiting for she and her agency translator to show up for a date and decide if she wants another date with me.

I feel lucky, blessed and most of all...I sure will be glad when I walk through those doors at the airport in Kiev and see her there to meet me and not have to wing it by myself waiting on a date with her from an agency.
Don't get me wrong here now, I have nothing against an agency as I have never dealt with one and I'm sure there are many honest agencies out there.

[BC]

Wise thoughts bleau.

Over the years, I've formed the opinion that a well versed litigator could profit pretty well from the niche market of FSU women experiencing difficulties with WM, falsely accused of scamming or other transgressions.

A WM traveling to FSU in persuit of a FSUW via arrangements made either directly or indirectly with a western company could qualify as 'interstate commerce', thus allowing lawsuits in a home country, or at the very least legal actions if a WM returns to FSU.

I'm not a lawyer, but others here are. I would enjoy hearing informed opin on this subject.

[Jumper]

Cheleseayboy-

as Boe mentioned,

I was actually thinking of Bleau. when stating it was better idea to out the agency rather than one individual.

1. it is likely far more helpful to men looking to avoid an agency than to avoid one particular person.

2, it is his romantic interests friend,
I see no reason for him to possibly cause friction between them or jeopardize his own personal happiness ,to enlighten men here,

who frankly should get enough of a hint if he simply pointed out a questionable agency.
Now  if that warning isn't enough ,
 then i think the odds of him saving some random man visiting that particular individual seems quite slim.


I could name specific individuals. Seriously, why should I?
I've gave plenty of warnings in the last ten years,and
it is so widespread its seems weird to *out* some
specific individual when hundreds or thousands are doing same,at the same agencies.

To do so because just  a few knuckleheads can't get it through their skulls after countless warnings about these *type* agencies just seems rather pointless.

As Bleua himself mentioned, it *could* jeapordize the health of himself ,his RW, and his RW's friend.The men truly behind such agencies are not above insuring thier business model stays intact.
Lets say he outs her specifically- and Boris visits her to find out how and why this could happen.she deserves whatever she might get, as scammer?
what about the  40 others at the same agency? just  doesn't matter.?
In my mind , however remote the possibility is of any harm,
it isn't worth the risk ,just to help some guy save money, who cant grasp a basic concept lined out here often to begin with.
I wouldn't want any of that mess on my conscious.

a guy not doing his own due diligence and wasting a trip, doesn't phase me much,
 I have empathy ,but its up to him to vet his meeting or meetings out.

[GoodOlBoy]

I respect your opinions, I think you are an intelligent   man,....

As far as RWD management goes, your opinion would be highly debateable. 
 
 
 

To me this simply suggest you do not have much experience in Ukraine  with dating agencies there.

Absolutely true!
GOB has NEVER been to the Ukraine.
Although I would like to go sometime with Marina.
 
 

but one that hardly puts you in a good position to know which ones would be a good choice for someone actually seeking an agency,or wanting to use one..

Exactly my point!
 
So how would a NEWBIE go about knowing if he is getting ripped off??
 
By the standards you are suggesting, no one should discuss, accuse or "out" an apparent scam artist (a known Russian Woman with a Russian boyfriend) or a known scam agency??
 
This also begs the question: How is anybody supposed to know the "truth" if certain RWD members want to protect scammers in the FSU?? (not suggesting you AJ)
 
Or...through "veil" threats of legal action and scare tactics run off a person (Bleau) who is trying to do the right thing by reporting a scammer here on RWD??
 
 
 
GOB

[Misha]

A simple solution to that is don't use agencies.

I agree. However, if they did this they would not be able to live out their virtual fantasies... Real women would potentially reject them, or at the very least they would have to put in a lot of time and effort to find potential candidates and there would still be no guarantees that they would fall in love with them when they met in person.

[GoodOlBoy]

Sorry, double post.

GOB

[BC]

So how would a NEWBIE go about knowing if he is getting ripped off??

Read the 10 RWD commandments.. Quite difficult to get scammed unless you don't follow them.

By the standards you are suggesting, no one should discuss, accuse or "out" an apparent scam artist (a known Russian Woman with a Russian boyfriend) or a known scam agency??
 
This also begs the question: How is anybody supposed to know the "truth" if certain RWD members want to protect scammers in the FSU??
 
Or...through "veil" threats of legal action and scare tactics run off a person (Bleau) who is trying to do the right thing by reporting a scammer here on RWD??
 

GOB,

What's the goal for men and women here?  To dive into the bottom of the barrel?

Or is it possibly to strive for the top instead?

There is no need to protect from the scammers.. Good education and information negates any need for protection.

There will however be those that just don't want to listen, and thus cannot be helped.  That's life and there is nothing anyone can do to about it.. They will just have to take their lumps and bumps.

A true newbie should do his/her homework before embarking.

[GoodOlBoy]

As Bleua himself mentioned, it *could* jeapordize the health of himself ,his RW, and his RW's friend.The men truly behind such agencies are not above insuring thier business model stays intact.
Lets say he outs her specifically- and Boris visits her to find out how and why this could happen.she deserves whatever she might get, as scammer?
what about the  40 others at the same agency? just  doesn't matter.?
In my mind , however remote the possibility is of any harm,

So AJ, not to to death, but I would like to explore your statement a little further.
 
Not to sound naive, but from your statement above, you actually believe through your years of vast experience, that an FSU agency/tour owner (or somebody on their behalf) might actually do physical harm to a female employee or anybody else who pretty much gets in their way of doing business.
 
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is this correct?
 
GOB

[Boethius]

an FSU agency/tour owner (or somebody on their behalf) might actually do physical harm to a female employee or anybody else who pretty much gets in their way of doing business.
 
 
GOB

That's the business model in Ukraine, GOB.  Very, very common.  Even the police are involved.

[Rubicon]

Reasons NOT to post contact information of a scammer:

1.  MOB business in Ukraine has mob connections.  Any information posted about an alleged scammer could result in physical harm to those suspected of leaking the information.  Former IT worker of a MOB business was shot at by real bullets in a real assassination attempt after he attempted to blow the whistle on fraudulent practices of the agency he worked for.

2.  Men who get scammed generally do not have the initiative or intelligence to read forums and look at lists of scammers.  They are probably going to get scammed regardless of your "noble" intentions.

3.  As soon as a scammer is outed they simply change their name and/or move to a new city.  And a new scammer is probably born every second.  Good luck keeping up with that.

[bleau]

2.  Men who get scammed generally do not have the initiative or intelligence to read forums and look at lists of scammers.  They are probably going to get scammed regardless of your "noble" intentions.

This is true. I know a guy been scammed two times and still not believe it or listen to anyone that knows. The first time was the visa scam, the second time he did go for a visit and she saw a dumb*** coming before he ever got there. He told us when he got on the plane in Moscow to return home he had $5.00 bucks left but man was she a dream come true. She told him in an email she had won some kind of something to further her education and would write him when she returned. I think that was about a year ago and still no letter from her and he's probably still waiting for that letter.

[Chelseaboy]

There have been a few Ukrainian pro-daters "outed " on Romancescam.com.,with photo's.It actually saved me a wasted trip from going to meet one of them
The men that outed them are all still healthy,and alive, as far as i know,and the WOMAN that runs the site doesn't seem to fear retribution,and she is Ukrainian.
However,on reflection bleau,it isn't worth the risk of retribution against your girlfriend,if you "out" this pro-dater,so you have made the right decision.
 
 

[GoodOlBoy]

However,on reflection bleau,it isn't worth the risk of retribution against your girlfriend,if you "out" this pro-dater,so you have made the right decision.

GOB agrees with this and retracts his original statement Bleau.
I would never encourage somebody here to go do something that might get them (or their FSUW) harmed.
 
GOB

[SANDRO43]

There have been a few Ukrainian pro-daters "outed " on Romancescam.com., with photos. It actually saved me a wasted trip from going to meet one of them

Further scammers/pro-daters can be found on the sites cited in our Scammer Lists (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=39) .

[Jumper]

GOB agrees with this and retracts his original statement Bleau.
I would never encourage somebody here to go do something that might get them (or their FSUW) harmed.
 
GOB

That was my thoughts GOB.

even if it's only *might* i just don't find it needed when an overall warning of the agency is likely  more accurate and helpful anyway.


To your direct question about harm.

Certain agencies in provincial cities
are owned by the same people that own the local strip clubs and casino's.
 The women employed by those agencies certainly believe  that harm *could* occur, so it really  doesn't matter what you or i believe.

A girl being reported by some man dating her as a pro dater what have you ,,
is one thing, and not  abig deal,
as the agency just washes it hands of that individual and hires 5 more..
maybe some older ones since men are getting more aware of the younger eye candy being unrealistic

Now compare that to someone basically *interviewing * a worker and using those details
to out her , and the agency?

Or someone working there coming forward with details and actual evidence.
Despite the many working .you just wont ever see that.Even over all these years i
have never seen it..Is that because it doesn't exist? all letters are written by the actual woman ,that is not paid to do so.. 

There are many reasons no one will ever come forward.. ,but I do believe one is an
undercurrent of intimidation, if they were to be so foolish.