Re: Why FSUW Look Abroad

[GQBlues]

...GQ can speak for himself if he wishes to clarify it further for you....

I was actually getting a kick out if and thought maybe to just let it pester a few more days.
 
It's pretty funny to watch CanadaMan go through his gyrations a bit. No need for me to disprove the previously known fact that only snow melts in the Canadian spingtime as apparently more than just mere precipitation freezes in the wintertime..But hopefully, like molasses, it'll revert back to normal consistency before the summer is over. It may take a while. How long? Who knows and likely who really cares, LOL.
 
Unrestrained, whimsical, and lustful...
 
1.

...What I am questioning is GQ's OTHER statements. He stated that AFTER the woman had found her man, AFTER they were both in love, and she was on the plane to immigrate to her new country, she was doing this solely for herself!

2.

...However, it's one thing for GQ to say that a woman signs up for herself and quite another to say that she comes to her loved one in his country 'for herself". To me, that's not right and not healthy.

3.

...It was GQ's suggestion, implication that once a woman 'signs up' that's it. Everything that she does from that point on is pre-meditated, carefully thought through and considered and only FOR HERSELF.

4.

...However, GQ was implying that the man she was moving to was a 'nothing', a cipher, not an important part in her grand scheme, her grand plans....

5.

....1. GQ telling Salty not to fret about his woman coming to his country, because she had everything planned in advance, long before she even knew he existed. She knows all about his country and doesn't need any assistance, thank you very much!

2. GQ was trying to take away from the loving part of a FSUW-AM relationship by saying that, you specifically, are not that important.

 
Golly, even my perennials that I try hard to nurse can't be this colorful...but be that as it may, my posts in these threads stand and anyone is free to surf it and verify if any of the above statement is factual.
 
I stay rested at the point previosuly stated.

[Muzh]

Hypothetically answering, absolutely I would. The very best we as men in this particular scenario can hope for is to be included in that list somewhere. Hopefully, higher in the priority but basically, just somewhere "in there". BTW CM, that same conversation could be made by any woman in North America moving to another place in North America and the result is the same isn't it?


To not be included on that list might indicate a problem. That problem should have been approached long before she had an opportunity to have such a conversation IMO. If one found themselves in such a predicament at that stage in the relationship, it's probably too late 

Canadia man, sorry to intrude but that is one hell of hypothetical question. In all the years I've been exposed to RWs I have never heard from anyone such question; and trust me, once in a while I would ask my wife questions along the line and she would ask me if I'm trying to get stuff for these fora and ignore the original question as asinine. You would have to know both of us to understand that not only I respect her opinion but she educates me in things that I thought I knew.

[GQBlues]

It's unfortunate it's no longer available, and not sure if AJ or Gator will even remember, I authored a thread back in the old days at RWG and titled it: "I'm Not In Love".
 
It more or less flew in the same wind GOB mentioned in his post on this thread.
 
The hard liner, like jb, actually understood and agreed with the context of the thread, although the many made it seem as though it was a pillow of white goose down feather floating on a hot tar lake...pity I didn't save a copy as it would shed some light into this very subject.

[Muzh]

Darn, I cannot insert a damn quote. It was Canadaman's question to FP.

[CanadaMan]

Hypothetically answering, absolutely I would. The very best we as men in this particular scenario can hope for is to be included in that list somewhere. Hopefully, higher in the priority but basically, just somewhere "in there".

I agree. Ideally, close to, or at the top.

BTW CM, that same conversation could be made by any woman in North America moving to another place in North America and the result is the same isn't it?

Absolutely!

If one found themselves in such a predicament at that stage in the relationship, it's probably too late 

Right.

[CanadaMan]

Canadia man, sorry to intrude but that is one hell of hypothetical question. In all the years I've been exposed to RWs I have never heard from anyone such question; and trust me, once in a while I would ask my wife questions along the line and she would ask me if I'm trying to get stuff for these fora and ignore the original question as asinine.

Of course it's one heck of a hypothetical. 
If you've been following this thread carefully and the one that it was broken off from, you'll know the only reason I asked.

[GoodOlBoy]

Hey GOB - have you ever heard of 'Godwin's Law'?

No.
Interesting read though.
The fact is, GOB was thinking more in reference to the "Soup Nazi" when he made his comment to Gator.
 
GOB


PS......From Wikipedia:

The Soup Nazi is also the nickname of the titular character played by Larry Thomas. The term "Nazi" is used as an exaggeration of the excessively strict regimentation he constantly demands of his patrons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soup_Nazi

[Faux Pas]

It's unfortunate it's no longer available, and not sure if AJ or Gator will even remember, I authored a thread back in the old days at RWG and titled it: "I'm Not In Love".
 
It more or less flew in the same wind GOB mentioned in his post on this thread.
 
The hard liner, like jb, actually understood and agreed with the context of the thread, although the many made it seem as though it was a pillow of white goose down feather floating on a hot tar lake...pity I didn't save a copy as it would shed some light into this very subject.

Do you actually save any old posts at all? LOL

[GQBlues]

Do you actually save any old posts at all? LOL

Yeah, I know...seem rather trivial, LOL.
 
But I did in fact saved a couple of them (threads). One I saved just before I asked to have it taken down, and the other I saved the week the site was sold. They changed the link and the format. Luckily, for a few days someone gave me a link to a 'ghost site' of the old one which was literally getting 'cannabalized' to feed the 'new site'.
 
T/Rs are like journals. Good to read again once in a blue moon.   

[Maxx2]

It's unfortunate it's no longer available, and not sure if AJ or Gator will even remember, I authored a thread back in the old days at RWG and titled it: "I'm Not In Love".
 
It more or less flew in the same wind GOB mentioned in his post on this thread.
 
The hard liner, like jb, actually understood and agreed with the context of the thread, although the many made it seem as though it was a pillow of white goose down feather floating on a hot tar lake...pity I didn't save a copy as it would shed some light into this very subject.

I remember that. I also remember MarkInTx asking you after you got married if you still stand by your statement, "just checking" he said. He thought it was amusing. I remember you were in a rush to get married but was fighting cold feet big time.   

[The Natural]

This little thought has caused, not only disagreement, but also character assasinations:
 

Not simply relocating, I also think one must have in mind that many women on these sites search for western men because they have better values than most FSU men that are available to them.

Hey Roy, please don't tell me you drank the kool aid!   

  "Drinking the Kool-Aid" is a metaphor, used in the United States and Canada, that means to become an unquestioning believer in some ideology, or to accept an argument or philosophy wholeheartedly or blindly without critical examination. The phrase usually implies that the ideology in question is not good. The term is a reference to the November 1978 Jonestown Massacre,^[1][2] where members of the Peoples Temple were said to have committed suicide by drinking a "Kool-Aid"-like drink laced with cyanide.^{[3]
 
Muzh, thank you very much for your concern about my intellectual well-being, but I've had no such drink.
 
What I was merely suggesting, there is a cultural difference between the way men in the FSU and in the west act with their woman and/or family in daily life.
For example, alcohol abuse. I think it's fair to say that alcohol abuse is a serious problem in FSU, particularly among men. As I live in Norway, I make a comparison with official numbers and it shows that the average in Norway is 5,81 litres a year compared to 10,58 litres in Russia.}
http://www.helsedirektoratet.no/rusmidler/fakta_om_alkohol/alkoholforbruk_i_europa_5513
   
"According to the latest data, life expectancy at birth is about 12 years lower
for Ukrainian men, and about eight years lower for Ukrainian women, than for their Western
counterparts."
 
 
http://www.demogr.mpg.de/papers/working/wp-2009-017.pdf
 
   ” Another sequence of this ruinous idea, which is not given as much attention as it should be, is violence at home and sexual abuse which so many women in Ukraine suffer from.”

“Ukrainian women are accustomed to suffer and being resigned to their fate for the sake of their children, they have a heightened sense of duty and responsibility, they take on so much on themselves, they do so much for the family and for society, but they find that the proverbial “man’s shoulder” on which they supposedly can lean for support in most cases turns out to be either not strong enough or absent altogether.”

http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20033/80
 
To me, and being able to actually think a little and draw conclusions from information from different sources, including from women that actually live in the FSU, the widespread abuse of alcohol by many FSU men is to the detriment of their role as good family men. How can it not be? Is any of my critics suggesting for example that womens rights is on the same level in Russia and Ukraine as in Norway? Is it widespread to see FSU men taking a 12-week time off from work to tend to their newborn? Do they share the burdens of domestic chores at the same level as the average Norwegian? Are domestic violence being prosecuted in the FSU on the same level  as in Norway? etc---etc...
 
Maybe I'm dead wrong, but this is at least my opinion at the moment and the reasoning behind my original quote.
 
PS. just so it is clear, I'm talking averages here!

[BC]

This little thought has caused, not only disagreement, but also character assasinations:
 
Quote from: The Natural on 04 June 2011, 10:37:46

Not simply relocating, I also think one must have in mind that many women on these sites search for western men because they have better values than most FSU men that are available to them.

   

As long as we are in semantic mode, if rephrased as follows I might agree:

Not simply relocating, I also think one must have in mind that some women on these sites search for western men because of a perception that they have better values than most FSU men that are available to them.

Surely many FSU women have had less than desirable mates in the past, as have their western sisters.  During my travels to FSU I've met quite a few families. I can't say that the 'quality' of men I've personally seen in action as husbands and fathers differs much from what I have experienced elsewhere on this planet.

In fact considering the fast paced courtship that accompanies many WM FSUW marriages the risk of marriage to someone (male or female) of less than stellar qualities may be higher than that of a local for which some natural vetting resources are available such as a babushka hotline or neighbors, friends and co-workers.

A proverbial box of chocolates.. along with Kool-Aid.

[Muzh]

This little thought has caused, not only disagreement, but also character assasinations:

Roy, my comment was offered in jest, not intended for character assasination. My apologies if you took it that way.
 

Maybe I'm dead wrong, but this is at least my opinion at the moment and the reasoning behind my original quote.
 
PS. just so it is clear, I'm talking averages here!

I'm not saying you are dead wrong but based on my observations from my trips, IMHO, that was a big wide brush you used to paint Ukrainian men.
 

[Muzh]

Of course it's one heck of a hypothetical. 
If you've been following this thread carefully and the one that it was broken off from, you'll know the only reason I asked.

Oh, but I've read all of these post and where it originated. Still, what does that scenario prove? From where I sit, it proves you were eavesdropping on her and you don't trust her. Don't you think you can see for yourself what kind of relationship you have with her?

[The Natural]

Hmmm, my reply seems to be lost for some reason. So here goes again.
 
Yes, often times one risk making too broad generalizations about something in which there are no exact numbers. I’m sure that goes for everyone here. So one is left describing a point of view by using less than accurate words like “some”, “a few”, “many”, “most”, “a majority”, etc.

Muzh, even though I have been characterized in more rosy terms than a suggestion I might have drunk Kool-aid, that was peanuts to other comments that I had in mind when I made the comment of “character assassination”.  Don’t worry, we’re good 

[SFandEE]

[quote author=The Natural link=topic=13563.msg269246#msg269246 date=1307437198
   
"According to the latest data, life expectancy at birth is about 12 years lower
for Ukrainian men, and about eight years lower for Ukrainian women, than for their Western
counterparts."
 
PS. just so it is clear, I'm talking averages here!



As you reference I suspect that the mortality and morbidity averages in FSU are highly influenced by wealth in FSU as I also imagine is the case in the US.  More homogenous nations (Sweden, Norway) with socialized healthcare systems I imagine are less influenced by wealth, but I do not have an analysis at my fingers that would back that up.


I am pretty sure I saw a death from a pedestrian/auto accident in Ukraine.  I wonder if those averages are relatively high as well.  I know when I am there the driving seems very dangerous.  When in Russia saw another high speed pedestrian/auto accident--although I was required to watch quietly, I learned that although someone was injured it was best for all parties to not report.


http://www.itsukraine.com/ukraine-is-among-leaders-of-deaths-in-road-accidents.html


I have heard that alcoholism and drug abuse are issues that reduce life expectancy there.  I do not imagine for the majority of WM this population is a target market for prospective girlfriends and brides.


The Natural--good homework on "drinking the Kool-Aid", I wonder if you or others are familiar with "going postal".  One of the most interesting things about other cultures are their "sayings" that become a part of everyday language.  Perhaps another thread can be started on this subject--I am sure Sweden has such sayings as well.  I noticed you used "peanuts" in your reply.

[The Natural]

The Natural--good homework on "drinking the Kool-Aid", I wonder if you or others are familiar with "going postal".  One of the most interesting things about other cultures are their "sayings" that become a part of everyday language.  Perhaps another thread can be started on this subject--I am sure Sweden has such sayings as well.  I noticed you used "peanuts" in your reply.

? Eh, I'm sorry to report that I do not understand what you mean here. Except perhaps for the "sayings". And why did all of a sudden Sweden come into it? I noticed Pantagonie doing the same in one post about me. Maybe it was because I hinted to him earlier, something about him being from Germany rather than France because of his meticulous planning, hehe.

[OlgaH]

And why did all of a sudden Sweden come into it?

The Natural,

Norway...  Sweden... Does it really matter?  Even the flags are almost the same, the colors are just different  I bet you can live with that at least here in  virtual reality 

[Gator]

It's a message board.  Don't take it too seriously.

I have a negative reaction when someone does not have the facts yet asserts I am wrong.
 

The spelling/grammar Nazis are on the loose.   

No soup for me.

[Boethius]

I have a negative reaction when someone does not have the facts yet asserts I am wrong.

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are "saying", which is not implausible, you are basically saying your ex's character changed dramatically in a scant year.  Sorry, I just don't buy that, based on my own personal and subjective experiences.
 
My husband's mother didn't like some of his friends, because she said that "Money changed them."  She viewed the friends as dangerous, because money does not have a personality.  It can't change the person.  Rather, newly found access to money changed behaviours, or characteristics which were inherent to those individuals.  Something which was not "seen" before in the individual was, with access to new experiences, now evident.
 
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201104/6-clues-character
 
 
 

[CanadaMan]

Oh, but I've read all of these post and where it originated.

Muzh, for the benefit of those just coming across this post now, I will give some background on why it was 're-activated' recently.


In a very long post in another thread (Question to Russian Ladies "Advice needed please", GQ first tells Salty that he and his woman planned to overstay her upcoming visa. Not a nice thing to suggest.

Then GQ responds to the following comment by Salty, who is wondering how to keep his woman busy during her upcoming 6-month visit.

"It must be very scary to move to another country not knowing anyone, not having a job lined up, no friends, etc.... jesus I feel for her...takes a lot of courage."

GQ comes back with the following:

1. Salty is a 'wuss' for worrying so much about his woman's upcoming trip.

2. Salty's woman must have signed up at a marriage agency.

3. FSUW who sign up at marriage agencies "always planned on doing it" (find someone and then move abroad).

Therefore:

4. If she ends up marrying Salty and moving to the U.S. she won't be doing it for him specifically.

5. She always planned on moving abroad, Salty just got lucky that she happened to choose him.

6. If their relationship falls apart for whatever reason, Salty must blame himself FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.


GQ sounds like such a cheerful, optimistic person doesn't he?

[Vincenzo]

Is any of my critics suggesting for example that womens rights is on the same level in Russia and Ukraine as in Norway?

I read that Russian and Ukrainian women are treated very well.

* For example, paid maternity leave is 3 years in Russia. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave
* If a woman wants to work, she can send her child to a free 8-hour kindergarten.
* If a wife files for divorce, her husband has to leave the house with nothing more than a suitcase. The kids always stay with her, he pays alimony - 50% of his income.
* It's safe to wear a mini.

I don't know about Norway, but Sweden is the country of victorious feminists.
They are suing Julian Assange from Wikileaks for rape because he participated in consensual sex without a condom.

[CanadaMan]

Oh, but I've read all of these post and where it originated. Still, what does that scenario prove? From where I sit, it proves you were eavesdropping on her and you don't trust her. Don't you think you can see for yourself what kind of relationship you have with her?

Muzh, you didn't understand why I posted the hypothetical. I will explain.

GQ was saying that Salty's woman, should they marry and she moves to the U.S., would be doing it for herself.

Not for herself and her husband.

In other words a very selfish act on her part.

Strangely, Faux Pas agreed that it was OK. He fully expected that his wife moved to the U.S. for herself.

I was taken aback by that.

Thus, I formulated my hypothetical as an extension of that.

[The hypothetical was not meant to show a man eavesdropping on anyone intentionally. I could just as easily have stated that the acquaintence who his wife was talking to, later told FP what his wife had said.

That wasn't important. What was important was that FP learned that his wife did not mention him in a long list of reasons why his wife decided to move to the U.S.  That she truly moved to the U.S. for herself.]

[Anotherkiwi]

...I am pretty sure I saw a death from a pedestrian/auto accident in Ukraine.  I wonder if those averages are relatively high as well.  I know when I am there the driving seems very dangerous.  When in Russia saw another high speed pedestrian/auto accident--although I was required to watch quietly, I learned that although someone was injured it was best for all parties to not report...

Following this to a point which is TOTALLY  , last weekend was a long weekend in New Zealand, because on Monday we had a public holiday to celebrate the Queen's Birthday (and before anyone comments, we know that her real birthday is in April!).  For the first time ever, we had NO fatal road accidents/crashes in a holiday period (Friday afternoon to Tuesday morning).
 
NOBODY dead on the roads (one did die on private property) - maybe that is an incentive for FSUW (and everyone else) to come to our wonderful country!
 
Our road toll for this year is 122, compared with 186 at the same time last year.  The toll for the last 12 months is 311, compared with 381 to the same time last year.  I shudder to think what the numbers would be in Russia or Ukraine (irrespective of the population difference).

[JohnDearGreen]

I am pretty sure I saw a death from a pedestrian/auto accident in Ukraine.  I wonder if those averages are relatively high as well.  I know when I am there the driving seems very dangerous.  When in Russia saw another high speed pedestrian/auto accident--although I was required to watch quietly, I learned that although someone was injured it was best for all parties to not report.

One of the more notorious accidents involved the stepson of one of the largest gas barons:
http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/26795/print/
Supposedly he was going 93mph and killed 2.  The investigators researched and determined he was going 37mph and fined him $7.