Re: Why FSUW Look Abroad

[Jumper]

I read that Russian and Ukrainian women are treated very well.

* For example, paid maternity leave is 3 years in Russia. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave
* If a woman wants to work, she can send her child to a free 8-hour kindergarten.
* If a wife files for divorce, her husband has to leave the house with nothing more than a suitcase. The kids always stay with her, he pays alimony - 50% of his income.
* It's safe to wear a mini.

I don't know about Norway, but Sweden is the country of victorious feminists.
They are suing Julian Assange from Wikileaks for rape because he participated in consensual sex without a condom.

Vincenzo,
You were replying to *the naturals* assertions about womens' rights regarding the FSU vs Norway.

This is a good illustration of what reading about subjects seldom really reflects the reality.


While most of your points are technically accurate..
The realities of life there for a woman ,compared to the western european countries or the west in general is different.

It also illustrates that each culture has its strong or weak points.


Yes a RW or UW typically  gets more maternity leave than the west
and more time off for  young children ( i wish the west would adopt this policy.)

 While i am certain many receive child support, I'm equally sure that this is not the reality for the vast majority of singly mothers in the FSU.
50% of the mans true salary seems laughable at best.. please poll some significant amount of FSU divorced mothers.
Try and keep in mind 50% of a struggling families income might not be enough to survive o nfor either party if then living in seperate places..additional expense.
.  This is also a region where many people report less than half their income to avoid taxes almost entirely if possible. almost a given.
Where bribes are a way of life almost as well.. for school, for official documents etc..
 I have seldom heard of rountine child support it other than in a newspaper articles or internet pages..My ex -extended family and people i know there ,never received any money for child support or alimony. Very  often the father disappears from the child's life almost entirely.
Of course this is not always the case!!
 but i know many cases of this and very few where the father did stay involved,paid child support etc.
(yes there are the laws on the books  about it..and they should pay,yet actual real world enforcement might not be as realistic as you expect)

 I really don't think anyone could  say women (particularly mothers) have it *better* in the FSU in regards to womens rights in general.
 I'm thinking wiki doesn't get everything quite right ,or paint the entire picture of life there for the average citizen.

[Gator]

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are "saying", which is not implausible, you are basically saying your ex's character changed dramatically in a scant year. 

Yes, you misunderstood.  I said she changed....goals, values and character.  You must add all three variables.   And your definition of "character" probably differs from mine based on the fact that I find several of your postings to be moralistic. 
 
 

  Sorry, I just don't buy that, based on my own personal and subjective experiences.
 

But not based on objective and specific facts.  You said it, "subjective experiences" which would be perceptions, not facts.   And you example of money has no bearing in my case.
 
I have responded to you twice and each time you fail to introduce anything new.  It is also off topic. So this is my final response.  Before closing, I have two suggestions:  do not think in black and white terms and do not stereotype.  One aspect about my ex-wife that appealed to me was how really different she is.  I believe you can accept that I am attracted to the unique even though some of what is different was perhaps complexly problematic.   

[The Natural]

Vincenzo,
You were replying to *the naturals* assertions about womens' rights regarding the FSU vs Norway.

This is a good illustration of what reading about subjects seldom really reflects the reality.


My ex -extended family and people i know there ,never received any money for child support or alimony. Very  often the father disappears from the child's life almost entirely.
Of course this is not always the case!!
 but i know many cases of this and very few where the father did stay involved,paid child support etc.
(yes there are the laws on the books  about it..and they should pay,yet actual real world enforcement might not be as realistic as you expect)

My Russian ex-wife have a son with a Russian man. Long before I met her, he was gone, paid no child support and showed no interest in his own son, at all.
 
Of course it's anecdotal, but supported by AJ's experience and I suspect it might not be very rare. In Norway, and I suppose other western countries, there is NO way a father can avoid paying for child support if he divorce the mother of his child. Big difference in enforcing the laws between the FSU countries and western countries, I suspect.

[Muzh]

Muzh, you didn't understand why I posted the hypothetical. I will explain.

GQ was saying that Salty's woman, should they marry and she moves to the U.S., would be doing it for herself.

Not for herself and her husband.

In other words a very selfish act on her part.

Strangely, Faux Pas agreed that it was OK. He fully expected that his wife moved to the U.S. for herself.

I was taken aback by that.

Thus, I formulated my hypothetical as an extension of that.

[The hypothetical was not meant to show a man eavesdropping on anyone intentionally. I could just as easily have stated that the acquaintence who his wife was talking to, later told FP what his wife had said.

That wasn't important. What was important was that FP learned that his wife did not mention him in a long list of reasons why his wife decided to move to the U.S.  That she truly moved to the U.S. for herself.]

Canada man:
 
I went through the other thread (I know, I'm an idiot) to get the whole meaning.
 
What I read was GQ being his normal cynic posting what may go wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people should be made aware of the consequences of their actions. It is up the the recipient of the advice to take heed or disregard it.
 
It seemed to me that Salty took heed and was okay with it. It is SH who will be making his own bed. Better make it comfy.
 
Regarding the issue about women planning to relocate when they sign up for an international marraige agency, well, unless international has another meaning, it is obvious what their intentions are.
 
I think you are taking issue by how it was said, not what was said. Between you and me I give a rats ass if anyone tells me that I was the last thought in her mind when she came here. Unless that person has the ability of seeing through my eyes, he knows jack. The important thing is what YOU think. Who cares about everyone else's opinions.
 
Everyone here has their own opinionated view of how to do this. It is up to the recipients to pick and choose. They'd be dumb if they take it personally.

[The Natural]

Everyone here has their own opinionated view of how to do this. It is up to the recipients to pick and choose. They'd be dumb if they take it personally.

How can you not take it personally if you're a person? 

[Muzh]

How can you not take it personally if you're a person? 

See what I mean?
 
 

[Vincenzo]

 I really don't think anyone could  say women (particularly mothers) have it *better* in the FSU in regards to womens rights in general.
 I'm thinking wiki doesn't get everything quite right ,or paint the entire picture of life there for the average citizen.

There is a difference between socialist countries like the USSR, Sweden, etc and capitalist countries like the USA.
The USSR had all possible natural resources of the world, but taxes were enormous and all people were equally poor. However, it provided super support for women: safe environment without criminals, free medicine, free higher education for kids, free apartments...

When a woman arrives to the USA, she can buy designer clothes and a car and feel rich. However, when her kid gets sick, she'll have to buy very expensive insurance and work for pills only.

[Vincenzo]

  In Norway, and I suppose other western countries, there is NO way a father can avoid paying for child support if he divorce the mother of his child. Big difference in enforcing the laws between the FSU countries and western countries, I suspect.

I've read somewhere a conversation between Russian ready-to-be brides about Sweden and Scandinavia.
One wrote, "Never marry a divorced Swedish man. All his income will go to support his ex and you as his current wife will live in poverty."

Also I read, if a Russian woman marries a Scandinavian man, she won't be able to take home her baby after divorce."

[Jumper]

There is a difference between socialist countries like the USSR, Sweden, etc and capitalist countries like the USA.
The USSR had all possible natural resources of the world, but taxes were enormous and all people were equally poor. However, it provided super support for women: safe environment without criminals, free medicine, free higher education for kids, free apartments...

When a woman arrives to the USA, she can buy designer clothes and a car and feel rich. However, when her kid gets sick, she'll have to buy very expensive insurance and work for pills only.

USSR was fallen quite some time ago?
but if you really think it was actually some utopia as depicted , with no crime and life's essentials all provided,
you really  should speak with more soviet era women , and certainly those now who lived thru the fall and into  modern times there.
 
Since we are talking about current times,
taxes are  seldom paid  on someones true salary.
The entire system is corrupt from the top down..
the infrastructure is crumbling, and very little social programs for women, or support from thier ex's in reality.
 
Granted there are certain FSU cities , Moscow , st pete ,kiev, etc where this situation is much much better.
 
However one of the main reasons the MOB scene even  exists , and hence this website,  is the large number of single mothers with little income, no support, and poor prospects for a future in country.
To compare overall womens rights , or conditions of the majority vs anywhere in the west just seems odd,it's not even close.
Go visit awhile,  observe, make some friends, watch daily life..
 
As noted many exceptions exists.
All that can be made here is generalities,but try not to doubt that the harsh realities of life there, particularly for women, is a primary driving factor to this whole scenario.
 

[Misha]

* If a wife files for divorce, her husband has to leave the house with nothing more than a suitcase. The kids always stay with her, he pays alimony - 50% of his income.

Only partially correct. A man would generally only pay 50% of his income if he had three or more children with his ex-wife.

However, this will be on his "official" income, not the income that he earns paid in cash in envelopes on the side 

P.S. As for leaving the house, this is also not quite so simple either. Let's say they happen to be living in an apartment that belongs to his parents. Under those circumustances, it would be much more difficult for her to gain possession of the apartment following a divorce... The Devil is always in the details.

[Misha]

The USSR had all possible natural resources of the world, but taxes were enormous and all people were equally poor.

High ranking Communist Party officials had many perks that others did not. Not everybody was "equally poor"....

[The Natural]

I've read somewhere a conversation between Russian ready-to-be brides about Sweden and Scandinavia.
One wrote, "Never marry a divorced Swedish man. All his income will go to support his ex and you as his current wife will live in poverty."

I don't know why Sweden always pops up in my threads, but never mind.
 
All his income will go to support his ex? No, nothing goes to support his ex, but to support their common children, which is only fair.

Besides, a set portion of his salary goes to the upbringing of his children. He will of course not have to pay a sum every month that is so high that he won't be able to lead a normal life. But if he have a lot of debt, that can certainly contribute to hard times economically. But that goes for everybody everywhere.

[Gator]

Only partially correct. A man would generally only pay 50% of his income if he had three or more children with his ex-wife.

However, this will be on his "official" income, not the income that he earns paid in cash in envelopes on the side 

P.S. As for leaving the house, this is also not quite so simple either. Let's say they happen to be living in an apartment that belongs to his parents. Under those circumustances, it would be much more difficult for her to gain possession of the apartment following a divorce... The Devil is always in the details.

Correct.  Even without children or with just one child, the man is suppose to pay some support/alimony.  I understood it is 25% of income, but almost every divorced RW I met received nothing because her ex-husband did not have an "official" income.  My attorney in Florida once got involved with a FSU hockey player's divorce from his FSU wife.  His NFL salary was very public, so the long arm of the law came to Florida.

[wicheese]

When a woman arrives to the USA, she can buy designer clothes and a car and feel rich. However, when her kid gets sick, she'll have to buy very expensive insurance and work for pills only.

Related to your comments about the Soviet time, you need to watch "Cargo 200" which is based on a true story and come back and tell me it was not a corrupt country without crime during the Soviet period.
 
Now to medical insurance in Russia, just go to a clinic without some money for a side payment.  Chances are you will sit there like a co-worker of a former girlfriend who broke his arm, it was not until a few days later that a friend showed up with a little extra money whe it got fixed. 
 
Also, I should note that my Fiancee has private insurance because she knows that if you want good medical care, chances are you're not going to get it from the free clinics. 

[Boethius]

There was less crime against individuals in the USSR than in the West at that time, but it differed, based on where one lived.
 
In Ukraine, violent crime was quite rare, far, far less than in the West at that time.  I never felt unsafe walking anywhere, at any time.  There was a lot of theft though, and the entertainment for my husband's coworkers when working the late shift was to go downtown and wait for the bars to close.

[Vincenzo]

Correct.  Even without children or with just one child, the man is suppose to pay some support/alimony.  I understood it is 25% of income, but almost every divorced RW I met received nothing because her ex-husband did not have an "official" income.  My attorney in Florida once got involved with a FSU hockey player's divorce from his FSU wife.  His NFL salary was very public, so the long arm of the law came to Florida.

I checked two billionaires who divorced recently: the first one is Russian, the second one is American.
They both know how to diminish their official incomes.
1. Abramovich.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23388978-abramovich-gives-ex-wife-1b-and-four-homes-in-worlds-costliest-divorce.do

Abramovich, 40, and his wife Irina, 39, were granted a "quickie" divorce in Moscow last month in what is believed to be the world's costliest marriage split.
Irina is thought to have been given cash and property worth between £1 billion and £2 billion

2. Elon Musk is broke when his wife files for divorce
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/sorkin-elon-musk-of-paypal-and-tesla-fame-is-broke/

“About four months ago, I ran out of cash,” Elon Musk, co-founder of PayPal and head of Tesla Motors, acknowledged in a divorce court filing that was widely circulated among the West Coast digital elite.

You know how Western men deal with alimony and 50/50 splitting - they never marry. The average American has 7 girlfriends in his life whom he always gives promises to marry "tomorrow".

[Vincenzo]

All his income will go to support his ex? No, nothing goes to support his ex, but to support their common children, which is only fair.

I think a Norwegian man has to support his ex-wife by law when she divorces him.

But when he brings a Russian or Thai wife he can always threatens to divorce her if she isn't submissive. If he divorces during the first 3 years of their marriage, she'll be deported immediately.

[SFandEE]

I've avoided this thread with one exception.


Back to the original question--could the answer for some be as simple as


"because they can"


The same for legitimate WM.


As far as I am concerned what a great expansion of opportunity to meet amazing women when it became possible to actually interact with FSUW.  One of the best things in my lifetime has been the collapse of the Soviet Union and the opportunity to meet and interact with so many wonderful people that were behind the "iron curtain"


Has anybody posted anything remotely close to this in the past 8 plus pages?

[Vincenzo]

Since we are talking about current times,
taxes are  seldom paid  on someones true salary.
The entire system is corrupt from the top down..
the infrastructure is crumbling, and very little social programs for women, or support from thier ex's in reality.
 

I checked the numbers.

Income tax in Russia is flat and low - only 13%.
That's why Moscow has the highest number of billionaires in the world - they prefer to pay taxes than to sit in prison.
http://www.forbes.com/2011/05/17/cities-with-most-billionaires.html

Also, I checked the progress in salaries.
Teachers (a typical female profession) in 2005:
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1062104.html

The average monthly wage for teachers in Russia ranges between $50 and $140 -- barely enough to feed a single person, particularly in Moscow.

In 2011:
http://www.sptimes.ru/story/33815

Now, Putin said, the average schoolteacher’s salary is 13,000 rubles ($460), compared with the average salary nationwide of 18,000 rubles.

The prime minister also said that “in the near future, teachers’ salaries might grow by as much as 30 percent.”

Don't you feel that fewer and fewer Russian women are looking for foreign husbands?

[Boethius]

Back to the original question--could the answer for some be as simple as


"because they can"



Has anybody posted anything remotely close to this in the past 8 plus pages?

This thread is a split from another thread, when it went "off course".  I chose the title based on the last arguments made on reasons for marrying.  This title is probably not the best description of the content/subject matter.

[Anotherkiwi]

I checked the numbers.

Also, I checked the progress in salaries.
Teachers (a typical female profession) in 2005:
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1062104.html
The average monthly wage for teachers in Russia ranges between $50 and $140 -- barely enough to feed a single person, particularly in Moscow.

In 2011:
http://www.sptimes.ru/story/33815
 Now, Putin said, the average schoolteacher’s salary is 13,000 rubles ($460), compared with the average salary nationwide of 18,000 rubles.  The prime minister also said that “in the near future, teachers’ salaries might grow by as much as 30 percent.”

Work it out - add 30% to 13,000 RUR and you get 17,000ish - still below the average!  The salary has roughly trebled in those six years, which sounds a lot, but in actual terms has only grown by $300-$400 a month.  How much have living expenses gone up in that time, especially in Moscow?

Don't you feel that fewer and fewer Russian women are looking for foreign husbands?

Judging by the numbers of new faces that you see if you are looking regularly at certain websites, the answer is a resounding NO.  And how is it that such a big proportion of those looking list their occupation as "pedagogy" (i.e. teachers/lecturers)?  I wrote in another thread a while ago that I still can't believe that teachers and doctors (and nurses) are the lowest-paid professions in the FSU.

[Vincenzo]

How much have living expenses gone up in that time, especially in Moscow?
 
 I wrote in another thread a while ago that I still can't believe that teachers and doctors (and nurses) are the lowest-paid professions in the FSU.

Living expenses have gone up because salaries have gone up.

Teachers and doctors have low salaries because it's very easy to get higher education for free.

[Misha]

Income tax in Russia is flat and low - only 13%.
That's why Moscow has the highest number of billionaires in the world - they prefer to pay taxes than to sit in prison.

Your logic is flawed. It is a common logical error: just because statement A follows statement B does not mean that A caused B. Russia's wealth was concentrated in the hands of a small clique of billionaires long before the 13% tax rate was instituted and has more to do with a cabal of well-connected individuals controlling a handful of industries that generate most of Russia's wealth...

Don't you feel that fewer and fewer Russian women are looking for foreign husbands?

There weren't that many looking to begin with anyways. However, many Russians want to leave Russia. It was reported that 1.25 millions Russians, mainly businessmen and middle-class officially left Russia these past three years. Many more certainly left unofficially...

[GoodOlBoy]

Teachers and doctors have low salaries because it's very easy to get higher education for free.

The man does have a point.
When almost everybody has the same education level.....
 
GOB

BTW....Obama's Utopia!

[Jumper]

Living expenses have gone up because salaries have gone up.

Teachers and doctors have low salaries because it's very easy to get higher education for free.

Ok Vincenzo,
 
Lets ask google why an accountant,  a secretary,  data entry or bank tellers salaries are equally low in  comparison to the west or w. europe , similar jobs?
because higher education is free*? (there's a big asterisk)
 
I have a friend that makes about $300 a month.
Not unusual in a provincial city.Do you have any idea food costs there?
Shopped in a market, picked up a few things to make a few  meals?
Ride a marshrutka to work every day?
Dined at just a normal  cafe? (not a expensive restaurant)
Searched for a meager apartment in a decent part of town? (it will run you 250 to 300 or more, if you get to some dicey areas maybe 150 to 225..)
How are you going to make ends meet?
 
OH yeah!! from the 50% of salary your ex husband is going to pay you.. for child support ..     
   
what about medical care? you know a bribe is needed for decent care? dental?
what about if the apartment building you are in electrical panel blows,or lift isn't working, or general basement plumbing needas fixing?
The building collective will likely be knocking each residents door for as few gryvna to fix it,,
or the elementary school teachers expecting a gift ,,or some $$ to repair thier school etc..your child goes there, you need to do something, I guarantee you.
The list is endless , and the money trees leaves all gone.
 
You simply can't operate well under this western illusion of how life in another culture actually is in general.
 
There are many exceptions, and there are good salaries and different situations in various cities and regions,but i thought you were trying to grasp the general populace.