She is here! My 'trip' report continues

[KenC]

Maybe I don't understand something, but I believe every one has the right to choose his/her own way to the happiness. PG choose his way.  Yes, it might be a mistake. But who didn't do those?  If  PG did that mistake, he and Larisa will pay for it, because they both did it. If they are smart, they'll learn from it. That's how life is.
But maybe it is not a mistake. How we, the observers of this situation, can know?
If PG didn't listen advises of the more experiensed guys, it doesn't mean that it will not work out for him. It seems to me that they both work hard and have enough dedication to succeed. PG, don't give up, you and Larisa can do it!!!!

Rose,

On the surface you're correct and I agree with you.  But you are entering this subject almost a year late.  So you do not have the benifit of the history of PG.  We all wish them well and they can do what ever the hell they want.  Where I have a problem is when someone takes major unnecessary risks and then pounds there chest and announces that this (risky) path is the way to go.  Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then and maybe PG will be successful.  I just fear that some poor newbie might follow his risky methods.

In the past there has been rewritten trip reports and some very condensending posts by PG.  It is almost laughable that he considers himself expert enough to advise others.  There is always a certain amount of luck involved in the process of finding a mate, but PG seems to push his luck to the max.

KenC

[Turboguy]

Yes Ken, and why was it rewritten?   Let me refresh your memory.  It was rewritten because the original post led to so much nastyness and rude thoughtless commments that the whole thread had to be removed.   There were things said in the comments about the two of them that anyone with any sense should have been ashamed of.  Photoguy then reposted taking a lot of the personal things out and asked for no comments.

We have been hearing the same comments over and over for a year now.  It is getting to be like chinese water torture.   Whatever course of action Doug and Larisa chose the only thing to do now is to wait for the outcome.  If the things he did were a mistake which a lot of you feel, you have already already experessed that a thousand times each.   What is there to gain from the thousand and first. 

We need to get the guy back here who sent his fiancee back in 5 days so you guys can find someone else to bash.  Personally, I would not have done it the way he did but I have more flexablity with my time than a lot of people.   I hope they find happiness and if they don't they will both survive it just fine and hopefully they will both learn from their mistakes.  The USA will survive it too,  even if it was an abuse of the K-1 visa.  You worry some newby will read his story and emulate it.  I think the biggest danger to a newby is he will read the comments and decide RWD is not for him.    The clue bat guys will deprive the newby of a place he could learn a lot from and avoid mistakes. 

[Leslie]

TG I agree with your analysis -

"I think the problem is not Photoguys willingness to marry Larisa, I think it is his dream.  I think the problem is Larisa's willingness to marry Doug. "

I think Doug decided to marry Larissa months ago.

Larissa is a grown woman and she has a complete right to make the big decisions in her life. 

If Larisa decides not to marry Doug then I hope he will soften her return home with a couple of thousand bucks.  I think this is likely.  He is a NOT a bad person.

If they decide to marry then they have to work at building a stable marriage base.  Personally I wish them both luck.  They have a very steep hill to climb

 No one posting on this board can be certain of the outcome.  You are deluding yourselves if you think you know more than a small percentage of the real situation.

All the nasty invective is just UGLY and like a bizarre replay of what happened on Doug's original trip report.

Cool it and let the real story unfold.

 

[Turboguy]

Thank you Leslie.    That is the best post I ever saw you make.    Frankly, I think Doug decided he wanted to marry and spend his life with Larisa in Keiv without even a kiss. 

If she does decide to go back and he sends her back with an empty purse, I will join the ranks of the Doug bashers.   It is between them what that needs to be but I think Doug loves her enough that he wants her to be happy with him prefferably,  but without him if that is her choice.

Doug is very much a romantic at heart.   If she decides to stay and marry him it will be all his dreams for his life come true.   I wish them both the best and plan to stay tuned for the outcome.

[Bruno]

Frankly, I think Doug decided he wanted to marry and spend his life with Larisa in Keiv without even a kiss. 

If she does decide to go back and he sends her back with an empty purse, I will join the ranks of the Doug bashers.

Why ?

You say that Doug was willing marry her long time ago... but Larisa is not a child... She know that she is in America with a fiance visa, a visa who allow to ready the marriage...

If she have accept to go in America, it is because she was willing marry Doug... other reason are bad use of the K1 from her side too...

What to think of a women who use a K1 without know if she love, if she will marry, the men who sponsor her... Doug have not obligate her to come in US... she have take the plane freely... in case of misluck, she support the shared consequence...

I agree that Doug need to compensate if HE send her back... but why he need pay if SHE decide to go back... Doug have propose and SHE have say "yes"... she was free to say "no" or say that she need more time for know Doug...

Marriage is for adult, not for child... and adult are responsible of own act...

In these story, i think that Larisa have make light choice too... She have take the risk, she have gamble too... if she loose, she is responsible...

If you have a local girlfriend, are you ready to compensate her financialy if SHE decide to go away ? I am not surprised that women have more power that men in US !!! You give them these power... same when they make the mistake, you are ready to pay...

[ConnerVT]

If you have a local girlfriend, are you ready to compensate her financialy if SHE decide to go away ?

I've had a few ex-girlfriends I would of happily paid some money to go away. 

[catzenmouse]

If you have a local girlfriend, are you ready to compensate her financialy if SHE decide to go away ?

I've had a few ex-girlfriends I would of happily paid some money to go away. 
[/quote]

Amen to that one Conner!!!

[Voyageur]

In my opinion, in these days, arguement that "a newbie will see ths link and will think that this is the right way to go about getting a FSU K1 babe" is getting a bit tired concerning this thread, IMHO.  After reading some of the comments made this long thread, I believe that it would almost impossible for a rank, new reader to understand what happened, first of all.  And if he did understand what P/G went through, there has been more than enough piling on to give him the idea that whatever happened was controversial or unique.

[BC]

Have been away for a couple of days, but reviewing the goings on it seems quite clear.. without clear commitment Photo and Larysa do not enjoy a true relationship.

Looking over my shoulder, my wife and I had a whirlwind romance, but believe me much was involved before I popped the big question..  months of thought, deliberation and follow up visits were given to whether or not our relationship had solid ground to build upon.. all on her 'turf'.  When the decision was made there was no question whatsoever of our resolve to pull it through.  Responsibilities were accepted regardless of end..  For myself it was 'do or die'.

I do not fault PG for being quick on the draw but I do question his aim.  The methods employed  do  provide a high probability scenario for a 'friendly fire' incident.

Some have mentioned that Larysa may be either at fault for putting herself in the line of fire or is ignorant of the dangers involved..  I say 'Nay!'..  the only fault I can see is that she put herself  in a position where she has  already lost a huge chunk of her life and has little or nothing else left to loose.  Her commitment is obvious and tangible..  PG on the other hand is as 'ambivalent' as it gets, halfway through the K1 and no true commitment in sight..

It may sound crude and rude, but it reminds me of choosing a puppy from the pound and then waiting to see whether it is housetrained before deciding to take it back.

The well-known tablets state: 'Be a man'.. I'm sure Larysas' thoughts dwell here..

[Turboguy]

Yes, BC, those are your opinions.   I surmise they are based upon reading some posts here.  I have chatted with Photoguy on the phone and exchanged some PM's and E-mails.   My opinion is the opposite.  My opinion is that if Larisa wants to get married he will be beating a path to the fastest place to do it before she changes her mind.  Opinions are like you know what, everyone is entitled to one.

The point a lot of us are trying to make here is that we have not only beat this horse to death, we are now flailing apart the skeleton.   The posts have been very speculative, extreamly repetitive and really serve no purpose.  There is nothing more to be said until whoever has to make a decison makes one.  These posts are very negative and not a positive thing for RWD.  Most of us would like to chill out until there is something new to talk about.  I hope you can join us in making RWD a more positive and helpful place and a real benfit to new people seeking thier happiness.

[KenC]

As long as Photoguy continues to post his foolish ideas of what an adult relationship should be, I will comment on them.  He has invited the general public into his life by posting the details here.  He has also, at times, put the idea out on this forum that he wain s confused and need of guidance.

There has been a lot of good that has come from Photoguy's threads.  The post that Rose made up thread should go in the hall of fame, for example.

A lot of the animosity has roots in PG's lashing back at advice he didn't like to hear.  I for one find it very difficult to reach him on any real level.  I find it like debating with a spoiled and insecure child.  A child that asks for help and then claims he knows how to do the very things for which he sought help.  Now everyone wants to throw a little "pity party" for little Dougie, when he really just needs a good spanking.

KenC

[catzenmouse]

And even when he's not posting anything you will continue to spout off  your superiority. Perhaps we should all submit our posts to you for  approval first?

[Photo Guy]

Here's another wild statement by KenC:

[size="3"]Let's review the "facts" as presented by you.  Larysa  learned almost zero English in the 10 months it took you to get her  K-1.  You had no plan to get her enrolled into any type of ESL prior to  her arrival.  After almost 45 days here, she has been able to attend 2  whole classes!
[color="navy"]
[/color][color="navy"]Guys, KenC is making  false statements. When she took English lessons last year, I tried my  best to supervise from thousands of miles away. It was just difficult  to do, to know how good or bad her teachers were. When she arrived here  in February, I had the opportunity to take off from work, so we went  from New York to California, to see some sights, and introduce her to  my family. After those two weeks of vacation, I searched for a nearby  ESL class and found one.  She just finished her third week- three  hours a day, and four days per week. On Fridays she attends a computer  course. ....So why the harsh criticism?! You be the judge. In my  opinion the critics are creating a false picture.

I think if she spoke better English, things might be less difficult,  but we are generally satisfied with the way things are going, in terms  of the language barrier. It can be very frustrating for both of us, but  she is worth it.

It was her idea to meet again in the US, rather than Mariupol. And her  idea to take our time before jumping quickly into marriage. Not that I  am vehemently opposed to these ideas. I can see her logic. The culture  shock, and missing her parents was not expected by her, but she is way  far from being 'naive'. That's for sure. She is willful.
[/color][/size]

[Turboguy]

As long as Photoguy continues to post his foolish ideas of what an adult relationship should be, I will comment on them. 

The last I heard we still had freedom of speech.  It seems like they are working hard to take our freedoms away so enjoy that one while we have it.   Now with IMBA they are even working on our inalienable rights.   

There is a new post.  Have at if if you must.  I could make some comments about your and PG's posts but I prefer not to fan the flames.  I would rather see the campfire die out.

[KenC]

Turbo,

That freedom of speech works both ways.

KenC

[KenC]

And even when he's not posting anything you will continue to spout off your superiority. Perhaps we should all submit our posts to you for approval first?

Superiority?  Where have I said that?  There are many good methods to go about this and some that are not as good.  I happen to have the opinion that Photoguy has taken some very big risks in how he has approched this.  I have also been critical about some of the decisions I have made too.  BTW, I have always wished him great success, in spite of my opinions of his methods.

KenC

[Turboguy]

Turbo,

That freedom of speech works both ways.

KenC

Ken,  You have me lost on that comment.  Of course everyone has a right to say what they think.

By the way Ken,  Why do you feel a need to use large type when you say something?

[catzenmouse]

[size="3"]As  long as Photoguy continues to post his foolish ideas of what an adult  relationship should be, I will comment on them.  He has invited  the general public into his life by posting the details here.  He  has also, at times, put the idea out on this forum that he wain s  confused and need of guidance.[/size]

[size="3"]There has been a lot of good that has come from  Photoguy's threads.  The post that Rose made up thread should go  in the hall of fame, for example.[/size]

[size="3"]A lot of the animosity has roots in PG's lashing back  at advice he didn't like to hear.  I for one find it very  difficult to reach him on any real level.  I find it like debating  with a spoiled and insecure child.  A child that asks for help and  then claims he knows how to do the very things for which he sought  help.  Now everyone wants to throw a little "pity party" for  little Dougie, when he really just needs a good spanking.[/size]

[size="3"]KenC[/size]

I fail to see how you could not classify this type of comment as  showing how superior you feel you are and how you look down your nose  at PG. I don't think anyone here wishes PG bad in this venture but to  continue to crap on him with the same rhetoric has gone beyond old and  monotonous. We all know how you feel about PG and have known this for a  year now. Your posts from that time could be copied into this thread  and no one would even notice the difference. You have many good things  to say on many topics so perhaps it would be time go get beyond your  crap-fest on PG.

JMHO,
 Ken

[KenC]

Ken,

You may be right about me pushing my opinion about Doug and his methods (or lack there of) too much.  The truth is, is that I myself am rather bored with Doug and his continuous poor decison making.  I do still wish him luck in his endevor.

I have also thought long and hard about your superiority accusation.  And you are correct in that too.  I am far superior to Doug in many ways.  I have a superior amount of knowledge of RW and experience withsuperior amount of time being married to one.  I also have superior experience in just being married and what it takes to have a successful marriage.  But there are many other members that join me in having a superior amount of experience and knowledge than Doug.  I guess I find some comfort in that he chooses to ignore them too.

KenC

[Turboguy]

We are all entitled to our opinions Ken, but I already made that speach.   Frankly I don't consider myself superior to anyone or inferior to anyone.  I think all people have their good and bad points.  I am glad you have such a good self image. 

Now tell me this KenC, how did you acquire all this vast knowlege and experience?  Were you born with it?  Did a genie pop out of a bottle and that was your wish?   Maybe it was the prize in a box of Cracker Jacks?  

Of course you didn't!  You got your experience by living it.  You got it by accidentally doing some things right and by learning from your experieces when you did some things wrong.  You are just further down the track than Photoguy is.

I have been at the looking for the right gal stage a lot longer than most of you.  I made a lot of mistakes myself too.  I tried to learn from them.  I made a big mistake last year and the mistakes I made were the same ones eveyone here talks about.  It didn't matter to me.  I had to make the mistakes myself to learn.   The truth of it is, as long as I have been at this I think I learned a lot more in the last year since I found RWD and since I made a big blunder last year.  When I look back on what I was doing before I found RWD, I was wandering around in a dark cave without a candle.  

I really don't feel much like talking about the situation with Doug because I don't want to fuel the fire.  The cold hard reality of it is that Doug found RWD and Larisa about the same time.  Dougs first post indicated that he was a little confused about how his trip had gone.  Instead of saying Doug why don't you tell us more about how you feel and we will try to give you our feelings about it suddenly he was an idiot and she was things I don't even want to say.  I still think the clue bat does more harm than good.

The interpreter who shared their time togther is a friend of mine.  Since she is the only one I know with face to face time with both of them her comments were that Doug was a very nice guy, Larisa was a very nice girl and they seemed to get along really well and to sincerly care about each other.

The point some of us are trying to make is the same things have been repeated over and over and over and over.  A lot of us would like you to to find some new material if you have to go on with this.  Truthfully what ever Doug does will be wrong in your eyes.  He gets her English lessons, it's why didn't you do it sooner.  He goes in a hot tub, that's terrible.  What does going in a hot tub really tell us one way or the other.  I am going to be spending 10 days pretty soon with a very special gal.  If I don't go in a hot tub with her am I evil?   Am I dooming my relationship?  If I do a K-1 with her am I an idiot blindly rushing into something and if I don't am a a wishy washy dolt who can't make up his mind?   Doug would be. 

As Ken said it so well, we are just tired of hearing the same thing over, find some new material.  When you have to stretch your imagination to find going with her in a hot tub to be something evil then you need to stop posting until you have something worth while to say.  Personally I think Doug is trying his best.  If it works good.  If it doesn't he will learn from it.  I wish them both a lot of luck. 

[Photo Guy]

[color="violet"][size="3"]K[color="darkred"]enC wrote:
[/color][/size][/color][color="darkred"][size="3"]As long as Photoguy continues to post his foolish  ideas of what an adult relationship should be, I will comment on them.   He has invited the general public into his life by posting the details  here.

[/size][size="3"][color="navy"][size="4"]I am[/size] [size="4"]not telling people what  anything 'should be'.  I'm just relating my experiences, good and sometimes bad. [/size] [size="4"]If  we enjoy  movie together or a trip to the Botanical Gardens, I'll  tell you about it. If she gets angry because I am not understanding her  rough English, then I'll tell you about it.  I am not 'inviting  the general public..' to talk [color="darkred"]trash[/color], but  I am posting here because I believe there are some who are curious  about how things are going, now that she is here in the US. Am I wrong?  Since people are not perfect, we need to accept each other's frailties.  I consider her rough English to be a flaw. I can accept it and deal  with it. Some wil not and should not deal with that flaw, but we're  okay with it. To each his own.

KenC, what do you think an 'adult relationship' should be, and why do you want to impose your views on others?
[/size][/color][/size][/color]

[rose]

I have two thoughts regarding Doug's situation:

First, as I understand Doug wants to marry Larisa, and waits if she will want to do it. If I'm right, I wonder if Doug made it crystal clear for her. I'm thinking what if I was in such situation? Even if I would want to do it, I would never show it, and just waited for man to ask me. If Doug still doesn't know what he wants..., well I think it is not going to happen. Dough, keep us posted, please!!!

Second, some observations (not in this particular case) made me to come to the following idea. The strong negative reaction(disliking, critisizm, etc.) usually occurs in situations in which people consiously or not relate themselves to some situation/behavior/words of others. Some unsolved, very often hidden, personal issues can cause such reaction. Ken, I do not know you, but this thought came to my mind while reading your posts. Does it make sence?

[KenC]

Doug,

I think you are a good guy from all you have written here.  Just a bit naive and with very low expectations.  Your hot tub story is a good example of this.  It was a lovely story and it sounded to me that you and Larysa made a nice connection that night.  Conner made a statement about it that you should have been doing this type of activity a few weeks into your relationship.  You took took offense to his comments.  You both were right in this case.  It was a nice night, but it should have been one of many shared by two people about to get married.  The fact that you needed a third party to facilitate such an evening, is sad.  You and Larysa deserve better. 

I don't feel that you have anything but good intentions for Larysa even though some of your actions may put her in less than a favorable postiton.  In some ways your being a "nice guy" hurts your progress in your relationship.  Like Larysa's English lessons while she was still in Ukraine.  If you had been a little less compasionate to her struggles and a little less patient with her progress, you may have uncovered the fact that her instructor was the problem and therefore been able to change instructors.  I don't think I need to go into how much easier your situation would be with impoved communication abilities.

What is so frustrating with your on going  saga is that in spite of your numerous errors in judgement (IMO) you still have a chance to find the happiness that a successful marriage can bring to you.  It isn't frustrating that you may succeed, but that you might fail after all that you have put into it.  Regardless of what you may think, I sincerely would love to see you succeed.  You have done most things differently than I would have done them, but I certainly do not wish you any malice.

KenC

[KenC]

I have two thoughts regarding Doug's situation:

First, as I understand Doug wants to marry Larisa, and waits if she will want to do it. If I'm right, I wonder if Doug made it crystal clear for her. I'm thinking what if I was in such situation? Even if I would want to do it, I would never show it, and just waited for man to ask me. If Doug still doesn't know what he wants..., well I think it is not going to happen. Dough, keep us posted, please!!!

Second, some observations (not in this particular case) made me to come to the following idea. The strong negative reaction(disliking, critisizm, etc.) usually occurs in situations in which people consiously or not relate themselves to some situation/behavior/words of others. Some unsolved, very often hidden, personal issues can cause such reaction. Ken, I do not know you, but this thought came to my mind while reading your posts. Does it make sence?

Rose,

There was a time in my life that I was in Doug's shoes: Naive and desperate to be loved.  It isn't a good place to be and it isn't an appealing place to be with regard to women.  Men in this position are willing to settle for whatever comes there way.

KenC

[rose]

Ken, I'm here in the US for many years already. When I just came I did a lot of mistakes, for which I had to pay. Since that time I've seen a lot of Russian girls and women coming here and doing the same mistakes again and again. I talk to them, they to "correct" their thinking in the adjusting ti the American culture, but almost every one of them think that all thise thing which happen to the others ladies will not happen to her. That she is smarter, or maybe just luckier than others. I'm so sorry seing them crying and regreting good advices.
At the very beginning my heart was breakening apart, I tried to push them into the right direction. Much later I realized, that they have to have their own experience, as positive as well as negative.  That's what life is about: live and learn.
Don't you see, your "teaching" of Doug is not productive? Maybe it's time to change the tactics in such case?