She is here! My 'trip' report continues

[ConnerVT]

THAT, in my opinion is the value of making a second (or third, or forth) trip, and that value is all too often underestimated....

All should need to print out your post, and read it each day.  Some of the best advice I have ever read on any RW web site...

[Son of Clyde]

I made two trips, the second one being only 5 days and the first being 2 weeks.

In this time I could see many admirable traits and I few I would have to deal with in the future. Never, in any way did I think it would be easy. Just the opposite. I was not well prepared for what happened and much of it is my fault. Never did I try to deceive her or tell her I was a wealthy man. She has come to grips that I did not have much as a single guy. This too is my fault, I was into having a place to dump my things and to sleep at night. Never was I into a lot of material things. I see now that women want nice things, a comfortable home and nice clothes. I was a tee shirt and jeans guy.

My intentions from reading the boards was to fix my place up to make it passable, not to buy too much furniture because she would most likely want new furniture to her liking, and not to look for a new house without her.

She is thinking I am terribly poor and not realizing I decided to wait for her before committing to anything relating to our family. Maybe it was wrong. Some of the people here thought I was a penny pincher. Yes, I need to be saving for the future.

There are still some issues and we work through them.

I am hoping my trials and errors may be helpful to others and I think people can learn very much from Doug's experiences that are far from over. I am optimistic that Larysa needs time and if she cares for Doug their time will be spent together and extend beyond 90 days. If she does go back can't Doug file another K1 for her if he chooses to do so and they both want it?

[jb]

If a man does not own a house before he marries, he should buy one.  Purchase of  major investments, house,  new car, furniture etc., after the wedding, especially if he does not know the woman well, is a horrible gamble.  If the marriage doesn't work out he will lose at least half his investment because her name will be on all the paperwork.  She will not be responsible for the debt because she doesn't work yet, but she will "own" 50% of everything.

I'd re-think buying a house until you are absolutely sure the marriage is going to be a lasting one.    Keep in mind the 730 day rule.

[Son of Clyde]

*Deleted*

[Admin]

Soc and jb,

Seems you two are taking the topic in a new direction. Suggest you re-post rather than hijack this one.

Also suggest you two, in particular, take a moment before posting in response to one another - and ask yourselves if you are making a genuine contribution to the board populace - or are merely firing off a reactionary post. Because of your past board conflicts - here and elsewhere - I urge you to be circumspect in your responses to one another.

- Dan

[Son of Clyde]

Dan, I was posting about my experiences which may or may not relate to Doug's. i had a hell of a time in the beginning and I may not have been as prepared for their arrival as I should have been. I am going to delete my response to jb and please feel free to edit my first post if you wish. I did not intend for it to become a discussion of the laws and marriage.

[jb]

Dan,

As stated before, it's your board, do as you wish.

[Photo Guy]

[size="3"][color="navy"]Advice for newbies:

If possible, make two or three trips to see her, before doing a k-1 or committing to marriage.

Realize that a langauge barrier can be a very tough obstacle to  overcome. All it takes is one or two huge misunderstandings and a  relationship will suffer or even die.

Having said that, learn to [color="blue"]trust your instincts[/color], and watch closely for  red flags. Don't ignore [color="red"]red[/color] flags like TG's gal's vodka in the morning.  Be impressed by her strength of character, like her honesty and charity  work, etc.

If I had gone [color="darkred"]against her wishes[/color] and visited her a second time in  Ukraine, let's say for three months, my actions would be applauded for  taking the time to get to know her before a k-1. Instead, we are doing  this during the k-1 visa period. Yes, there is more pressure, but we  are still discovering each other, in the same way that we would have  gotten to know each other over there with the [color="blue"]added benefit[/color] of her  seeing what life is like here. Guess what, if you are going back to see  her for a second time for two or three weeks, there WILL BE PRESSURE.  Let's not pretend this is not true. [color="darkred"]So if you go back and visit her  every three months for years, it will also be possible for her to wear  that 'happy face' while you are there.[/color]

[color="blue"]  Everything I wrote in my trip report from April of '05 is true[/color]. I  simply omitted the controversial[color="darkred"] 'no kiss'[/color] element, which I have  [color="blue"]explained[/color] earlier in THIS topic.

Things are [color="blue"]fine[/color] in the bedroom, thank you. We are going dancing  tonight. We'll be travelling to Vegas and Zion soon with her friends.  She is a great cook. When she puts thousand island dressing on lasagna  that we brought home from the Macaroni Grill, I try not to look  surprised.  Ha. We've had two bad [color="red"]fights[/color] in the last two months, and the [color="blue"]bad  feelings disappeared[/color] after a few hours. All in all, [color="blue"]we are doing well[/color]  and I hope she stays and we marry. I'll know fairly soon. The pressure  of time.

[color="darkred"]  If I had followed certain people's advice, I would have dumped her[/color]  because of her occupation and because of her lack of language skills. I  want to newbies to know that some 'negative' traits can be huge  challenges, but should not necessarily be deal breakers...    There are some [color="blue"]great[/color] [color="blue"]quality[/color] women out there who are just 'shop girls' (jb) and  who have trouble learning English (KenC). I advise to look at a woman's  character, rather than technical issues like English proficiency. Of  course if you find a woman who is of good character AND speaks English  well, AND has a great career, go for it. Of course. To a large degree,  you can trust that [color="blue"]the Lord will guide you[/color] to the right person.

[color="blue"]  Larysa is a gem. I have few regrets so far.[/color] :dude:  -doug[/color][/b]
[/size]

[Admin]

Dan,

As stated before, it's your board, do as you wish.

John,

Yes, I suppose it is my board - but I think you know by now I don't really look at it that way.

I see the board as a group of people interacting as a community. We all have, or should have, an equal voice.

My only interest was to redirect comments to a different topic - AND, to urge two people who have demonstrated some degree of enmity towards one another, to behave in a non-confrontational manner.

That is ALL I hoped to accomplish. I did not mean to evoke any other response.

- Dan

[jb]

Dan,

I had a rather long and logical reply written up WRT Clyde dispensing advice from his "wisdom horse", then deleted it because it would serve no purpose to further expose the idiocy of the blind leading the blind.  

[andrewfi]

Doug ~ We can assume that you want success?

So why choose a path that serves only to limit the possibility of success? Let us for now skip blithely past the reality that you do not know the woman at all well and that what you have at the moment, given your limited communication, is a reflection of your best hopes.

Always, we can only, at the end of the day only have best hopes, but always knowledge decreases the risk and increases the chance of success. Here, of course, success is not only measured in terms of whether you actually like each other, but also in terms of technical issues - things such as: can she survive on her own (happily) when you are out on trips. Can she hope to find work commensurate to her intellectual and trained skill levels. Does she have the innate qualities that enable a person to transplant from one culture and society to another. All these are questions that are hard to answer even when skilled communicators, aware of the issues and able to share a deep understanding of a common language are working to an understanding. Amateurs who can not even exchange facts, even less attitudes and ideas have very little hope. Given your limited resources, in all demonstrated respects, I can not understand what you did (or what you are trying to do and rationalise).

BTW, how are the wedding plans coming along?

[KenC]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Advice for newbies:

If possible, make two or three trips to see her, before doing a k-1 or committing to marriage.

Realize that a langauge barrier can be a very tough obstacle to overcome. All it takes is one or two huge misunderstandings and a relationship will suffer or even die.

Having said that, learn to trust your instincts, and watch closely for red flags. Don't ignore red flags like TG's gal's vodka in the morning. Be impressed by her strength of character, like her honesty and charity work, etc.

Nice post so far, Doug and you make a lot of sense in what you say here.

If I had gone against her wishes and visited her a second time in Ukraine, let's say for three months, my actions would be applauded for taking the time to get to know her before a k-1. Instead, we are doing this during the k-1 visa period. Yes, there is more pressure, but we are still discovering each other, in the same way that we would have gotten to know each other over there with the added benefit of her seeing what life is like here. Guess what, if you are going back to see her for a second time for two or three weeks, there WILL BE PRESSURE. Let's not pretend this is not true.

This is where we differ in opinions.  Your second trip could have easily fallen during the waiting time for the K-1 to be issued and there by not delayed her trip to America in any way.  I would be leary of any woman that would protest additionall time together.  I do have to correct your mistaken concept that the 90 days together is an "additional benefit" though, because everyone gets that 90 days whether they visit again or not.

So if you go back and visit her every three months for years, it will also be possible for her to wear that 'happy face' while you are there.

I think you are being a little bit snide here, which is fine, but you can learn a lot about one's character from meeting friends, family and just spending more time with her.  The more time together, the less possibility for her to put on a "happy face" as you say.

Everything I wrote in my trip report from April of '05 is true. I simply omitted the controversial 'no kiss' element, which I have explained earlier in THIS topic.

Things are fine in the bedroom, thank you. We are going dancing tonight. We'll be travelling to Vegas and Zion soon with her friends. She is a great cook. When she puts thousand island dressing on lasagna that we brought home from the Macaroni Grill, I try not to look surprised. Ha. We've had two bad fights in the last two months, and the bad feelings disappeared after a few hours. All in all, we are doing well and I hope she stays and we marry. I'll know fairly soon. The pressure of time.

Everyone usually has some disagreements.  Actually, some say you don't really know your girl until this happens.  I can only imagine the pressure situation you have put yourself and Larysa in to.

If I had followed certain people's advice, I would have dumped her because of her occupation and because of her lack of language skills. I want to newbies to know that some 'negative' traits can be huge challenges, but should not necessarily be deal breakers...   There are some great quality women out there who are just 'shop girls' (jb) and who have trouble learning English (KenC). I advise to look at a woman's character, rather than technical issues like English proficiency. Of course if you find a woman who is of good character AND speaks English well, AND has a great career, go for it. Of course. To a large degree, you can trust that the Lord will guide you to the right person.

Larysa is a gem. I have few regrets so far. :dude:  -doug[/font][/color][/b]

I hope everything turns out well for you.

KenC[/size]

[PeeWee]

I can understand an arguement and a fight. The stress that these women endure because they have left their home, family, friends, cannot speak or read, a new man whom they are not yet accustomed to. It seem inevitable that she would explode from time to time and well that she does, I think.

 

Peewee

[Photo Guy]

[size="3"][color="navy"]Andrewfin,

Success? It is all about finding the 'right' person. If the right  person is a blind person in a wheelchair, then that is who it is. Or  you can begin by saying to yourself, 'No, I will not accept a blind  person or a person in a wheelchair', because these present unacceptable  challenges. We all have different criteria for making a selection. I am  afraid half the guys reading this board, do not know what their  criteria is for selection, except maybe 'very attractive'. If you use  an overly analytical approach, you may over-emphasize certain  components, like her unacceptable career choice, or her bad English. I  think it would be too cold and clinical to cross her off your list  because of ...well, various criteria, like she is NOT from a big city,  or she is NOT a small town girl, etc.

Who she is, is more important than her ability to speak English. If  that obstacle keeps you from finding out who she is, you aren't trying  very hard to uncover her inner world.  -doug[/color]    
[/size]

[Turboguy]

I have to agree with you Doug.   Everyone has thier own ideas of what is important to them.   For many it seems to be finding an 8,9 or 10 with a great body.   For me, I think I would prefer no wheel chair but I could fall in love with a 2 or a 3 without much difficulty if I really liked her as a person and if the things we wanted in life were the same.  There really is such a thing as inner beauty and I would rather have a soulmate than a knockout.   I have to also say English, Education and career don't rank high on my criteria either.  Just because your criteria are different than some and my criteria are different from some doen't make them bad choices,  just different than the others.   It is not a cookie cutter world anyway. 

[KenC]

I have to agree with you Doug.   Everyone has thier own ideas of what is important to them.   For many it seems to be finding an 8,9 or 10 with a great body.   For me, I think I would prefer no wheel chair but I could fall in love with a 2 or a 3 without much difficulty if I really liked her as a person and if the things we wanted in life were the same.  There really is such a thing as inner beauty and I would rather have a soulmate than a knockout.   I have to also say English, Education and career don't rank high on my criteria either.  Just because your criteria are different than some and my criteria are different from some doen't make them bad choices,  just different than the others.   It is not a cookie cutter world anyway. 

Turbo,

Nice words, but just how many 2's or 3's have you visited?  Of course there are many different criteria involved in selecting a mate.  How someone looks is just one of them.  But it is usually the first criteria that comes into play.  I am sure that there are many unattractive women in Russia that are great people, but who will ever know?  Without the ability to attract a potential mate no one will ever know their other attributes.  Sad but true.  Let me know when you start your "ugly chick" writing campaign, OK?

It is lind of like when Doug wrote, "Who she is, is more important than her ability to speak English".  Of course he is right, but how do you really find out who she is if you cannot communicate?

KenC

[Albert]

Turbo, you have been out in the cold too long.  If you ever really got up close to a 2-3 woman in the face, there is no way you could contemplate anything romantic.  I am one who never tries for 9-10 women, but when they get down around 5s, I am quite embarrassed to be seen in public with them.

Nice to sound gallant about this, but no need to get completely silly.

[Admin]

Turbo, you have been out in the cold too long. If you ever reallygot up close to a 2-3 woman in the face, there is no way you could contemplate anything romantic. I am one who never tries for 9-10 women, but when they get down around 5s, I am quite embarrassed to be seen in public with them.

Nice to sound gallant about this, but no need to get completely silly.

Speaking of "completely silly" - the use of numeric values, in THIS context, strikes me as odd. Absent some universal measure of context and meaning, those values mean nothing - except to the individual citing them. This has proven so true over the years they even made a movie about it some years ago - remember "10" with Bo Derek. Clearly a beautiful woman - but there were, and are, others I find more appealing. Are they ALSO 10's?? Well, I could carry this on - but I think you get the point.

- Dan

[Jack]

 
Silly? I disagree and think the number system a man uses could be very helpful to him.
 
Most of us men will cherish our 8, 9, and 10's system. Now we may differ on our perceived "figure" value (my 9 could be your 5 or your 8 could be my 4) but men will continue to use and throw out these figures as long as man is around I think.

[KenC]

Dan,

Sorry, but I have to agree with Jack and disagree with you.  Think of the numeric system of rating women's looks as a reference to communicate with other men.  (And if you don't think women are doing the same thing, you're wrong)  As Jack said, everyone's rating numbers are different, but when Turbo talks of "2's & 3's" we all know he is talking about ugly chicks.

KenC

[Admin]

Ken / Jack,

I am willing to bet that we three would arrive at different lists if we were to list out those women we see as 10's versus 7's versus 5's and so on.

I know from Jack's photos, and discussions, that his taste in women is somewhat different than mine. No big deal - just different.

As one simple example - I would have been perfectly content with a wife from ANY part of the world - if they were the person who I felt bonded with. In fact, it is a bit of a surprise to me that I am married to a woman of light complexion and light hair. I found the dark-skinned and raven-haired beauties of Andalucia incredibly beautiful. Some others prefer the blond and blue-eyes.

What makes for a 9 or 10 in my eyes may be a 6 or 7 in someone else's.

And that is my point. I have no idea what a '10' is for Albert - but I suspect my opinion would be different. Same for Doug, Same for catzenmouse - etc. The only universal agreement we could possibly reach is that that DonAZ's wife, and yours Ken - are among the most beautiful women anywhere in the world - but even then, there are certainly some who would find a different form of beauty more appealing. Which renders the numeric ratings meaningless when trying to compare and contrast in this particular medium.

- Dan

[KenC]

Dan,

Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder.  But that is exactly the point here.  It doesn't matter how others judge your woman, only how you view her.  I really don't think that most men's opinion varies all that much either.  Sure I might judge a woman to be an 8 or a 9 and Jack would say she is a 6 to an 8, but the chances of one man saying "10" and another calling her a "1" are rather romote.  That being said, we are not sitting here in judgement of the beauty of any particular woman, just using the measuring stick in theory.

Thanks for the compiments on Lena.  I rather think of her as a "20", a "10" inside and out.

KenC

[PeeWee]

Yep, everyone has their own preferences in mind when they access the woman. What appeals to one does not to another. I tend to look at the overall package, as opposed to being a "leg man" or a "chest man".  Some give in one area some take in another area, and she has to like me the way I am as well. I have my strengths and my weakness too. Did you ever hear it said the men love what they see while women love what they hear? So  you can be a somewhat homely guy but if you have good game then  you can get the nice looking ladies. If that is what you want to do. I just don't want her to balloon out on me after the marriage. That is all I ask.

 

Peewee

[Turboguy]

I think Dan is right that everyone has thier own idea of what constitures a 10 and a 2 or 3.  Probably what I was calling a 2 or 3 would be a 4 or 5 for most people.   I have seen guys rave about the beauty of a gal that would not interst me at all. 

For me, I would have a hard time falling in love with a really heavy gal even if she had a 10 face (even though I could use to loose a few pounds myself)  I have seen other guys who want nothing else  (I think they must be nuts)  I could be happy with a slender girl who was not beautiful but was very nice without giving it a second thought.   I write a number of gals who are 9's no ifs ands or buts and some that are far less.  I am far more concerned with finding someone I can enjoy being with, who enjoys the same things, wants the same kind of life, has the same values, communicates well  and is basically a good person.   I really don't care about walking down the street and making all the guys envious or having a girl so pretty that when we have dinner I have to be careful I don't fork my eyeballs.  My whole point is that everyone has their own goals and values in what they seek, and yes, I like a beatiful woman.  I am not that crazy, but it is not my highest prority or even one of the highest.  If I can find a good girl who is also pretty, great.  

[jb]

I've not seen so much BS in one thread in a very long time, certainly the next liar doesn't stand a chance.:D