If you asked me: "what's not to like in Ukraine?"

[GQBlues]

No dude, I'm talking about Thai Kwon Do, a mixture of Muay Thai and Tae Kwon Do!!    

Well, OK, if you say so...Muay Thai is Thailand's kickboxing while TKD is So. Korea's martial arts. They are completely separate. No such hybrid yet. It'll take a 'master'/sensei' to declare a 'new' art (hybrid of multiple principle) to be his own and be recognize as such for this to be considered in existence. e.g. Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.
 
In most hybrid martial arts, there's no combination but rather, as Bruce Lee term it, winnowing..e.g. Helio's BJJ took out the 'striking' out of the Japanese traditional art of Jiu Jitsu and centered it's core on the grappling principles instead, then he called it - BJJ.
 
You should've known that if you are a student of the arts.

[Rubicon]

Well, OK, if you say so...Muay Thai is Thailand's kickboxing while TKD is So. Korea's martial arts. They are completely separate. No such hybrid yet. It'll take a 'master'/sensei' to declare a 'new' art (hybrid of multiple principle) to be his own and be recognize as such for this to be considered in existence. e.g. Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.
 
In most hybrid martial arts, there's no combination but rather, as Bruce Lee term it, winnowing..e.g. Helio's BJJ took out the 'striking' out of the Japanese traditional art of Jiu Jitsu and centered it's core on the grappling principles instead, then he called it - BJJ.
 
You should've known that if you are a student of the arts.

It was a joke, GQ!!  I misspelled Tae Kwon Do and you correctly pointed it out.  My master in Tae Kwon Do won the Gold medal at the olympics for South Korea.  He is an excellent instructor and a very respected man in South Korea.  He currently lives and teaches near Seattle.

When I was in high school I took Kung Fu in China Town in Seattle.  One of my "big brothers" went on to star in the movies.  My Si Fu was famous for bending rods of rebar steel with his neck.  I have no idea how he did it.

I have always been a big fan of Bruce Lee and I've read parts of Tao of Jeet Kun Do.  I dream of meeting Danny Inosanto some day.  As you probably know Bruce is buried in Seattle.

[GQBlues]

LOL. OK. You had me for a loop there...but FWIW, I think MMA's a disgrace to the principle of these ancient arts...there's a huge difference between martial arts, the art of self defense and body/mind principle; from the barbaric combatants of MMA. I was surpised Royce (Gracie family) ever even participated in this.

[Rubicon]

LOL. OK. You had me for a loop there...but FWIW, I think MMA's a disgrace to the principle of these ancient arts...there's a huge difference between martial arts, the art of self defense and body/mind principle; from the barbaric combatants of MMA. I was surpised Royce (Gracie family) ever even participated in this.

I guess we have a difference opinion because I see MMA as a natural progression.  You can say it's barbaric but the fact is that martial arts were not used anciently to just promote self defense skills but were widely used in combat in Japan and all over China and the far east.

[GQBlues]

Thta's quite alright with me. Strictly a personal opinion. After all, even Bruce Lee succumb to the lure of capitalism.

[Rubicon]

Thta's quite alright with me. Strictly a personal opinion. After all, even Bruce Lee succumb to the lure of capitalism.

I see your point.  It seems that you feel the essence of the arts have been polluted by money/greed.  I guess I think it's better to see that, then to see what they did in ancient Rome where they forced slaves to battle to the death with little chance to win; just for the sake of the pleasure of the mob.

[SFandEE]

For my taste this thread has gone way off topic.  I am posting a computer translation of one of the links provided.

For further investigation key topics would be Lugansk Oblast, Baccarat (restaurant), and Roman Landika Valdimirovich.

As for roundhouse kicks and temple punches and this happens in America too stuff (does/does not) maybe we can have at what time in the video a roundhouse would be used or a comparable video of an American city councilman walking into a cafe in broad daylight and start beating on a woman with no response by others.  By the way, I do agree that Americans need to be less nationalistic about "this doesn't happen in America statements", but really this is a horrible thing to witness in Ukraine and regardless of whether it happens in America or not--Ukraine should aspire to better than this from its' citizens and government.  Specific Americans tend to make these statements on this forum--and go there quickly.  Perhaps it is for baiting purposes.  Although the meat looks tasty it has been poisoned--let's not eat the bait.

Here is the translation:

Lugansk Oblast prosecutor's office opened a criminal case against a deputy of Lugansk City Council Roman Landika.

As a spokesman for the prosecutor of Luhansk region, Alexander Zaitsev, a criminal case in part 3 st.296 (disorderly conduct) of the Criminal Code of Ukraine.

"July 4, Leninsky Interior Department has received two reports of the crime.Today, the acting prosecutor of Luhansk region opened a criminal case on the grounds of the offense under part 3 st.296 a deputy city council Landika RomanVladimirovich," - said the prosecutor Lugansk Redin, Igor.

As reported, according to eyewitnesses Landik Roman Holiday in the restaurantbeat the girl who sat at another table. Event recorded on video clip published on the Internet.


Another more current article--apparently restaurant is called Baccarrat--some information about the young woman


Landik already reconciled with pobitoj girl

<ins><ins></ins></ins>Member of the Luhansk city Novel Landik, who beat her in the restaurant, said that he had reconciled with it, writes today. "We have long had a reconciliation (with Maria Koršunovoj — ed.), so no comment. You can watch any video, any mounted. I would like on your site ceased to do so and wait for the end of the investigation. " With regard to Masha, the doctors do not yet allow it to see or talk on the phone saying that she had a nervous breakdown. Maria Korshunova is a fotoredaktorom free time engaged in music and participating in beauty contests. In 2009 she appeared in Romero Miss 1 + 1 ", and last year she was invited to participate in Miss MusicRadio." Together with my girlfriend Mary created the group "MDŽEJ", the girls recite RAP as reported forua, in the night of 4 to 5 July 2011 at the restaurant "Baccarat", according to eyewitnesses, a member of the Luhansk City Council Landik, son of the people's Deputy of Ukraine from the Party of regions, Vladimir Landika, beat girl. Landik, in turn, said that applied to the militia because feels aggrieved. 7 July, the Office of the Luhansk oblast instituted criminal proceedings for bullying in the restaurant "Baccarat" against the son of the people's Deputy of Ukraine Volodymyr Landika Roman Landika.
2011-07-08 10:29:53

[Boethius]

You misunderstood me.  Muzh stated that Donetsk was mafia capital of Ukraine and I might get shot with a bullet by one of them.  I stated that that (getting shot by mafia) and ending up in a Ukrainian jail were my worst fears.  You stated they are not that bad (I thought you were referring to mafia) if you don't bother children and women.  And this is where I disagreed with you because my sources indicate the mafia works hand in hand with police and prosecutors and it is the mafia who is tricking young girls into prostitution and sending them to other horrible countries in that type of slavery.  I never said or implied that the mafia would go to jail, I was implying that the mafia might try to shoot me and then have me arrested by a corrupt cop.

OK.  I meant Ukrainians prisons are not that bad, as long as you have not touched a woman or a child.   Most people there are in for minor crimes.  The real criminals, as mies pointed out, walk free.

[ECOCKS]

The guy coming through the door looks to me like a private security service guard although he could be a special unit cop that was dispatched. Since he's alone I doubt it though. I rarely saw cops that weren't in a group (usually three at a time in cars and two when walking around). I'd guess he's responding to the restaurant rather than the girl's call or being there to help the man beating the girl.

This is the normal state of affairs in Ukraine. Do the people "deserve" it? Maybe. Sorta'. They continue to accept the status quo despite the country's claims to rule of law and equality of the people. They were raised to accept that they have no personal power unless it is granted by the state. That has been somewhat expanded to include the power that comes from economic situations through bribes and "buying" political power but none of these people feel they should "help" a stranger.

Reality is that interfering in this situation would cause a ton of trouble. We wouldn't know though and our cultural/moral response is going to put you in a potentially bad position. Don't think for a minute that if you had hit this guy that you would have slept in your own bed that night. All the bluster in the world wouldn't have kept you from a night in custody, possibly mixed into the general tank.

That said, I know most AM would have moved into this situation without thought to the personal consequences. Me? I would have probably moved between the guy and the girl and tried to get her clear. It is possible of course that the guy might have hesitated to hit a calm, apparently well-to-do foreigner (particularly if a group was present) and therefore stalled the incident quickly. Then again, it might have brought about a larger-scale brawl. Very doubtful anyone would end up a hero although they might feel the satisfaction of being true to their own principles and moral standards.

You would have probably seen a different side of your girl as well. Not necessarily one you would have liked either. She would probably think you were crazy for getting involved and you'd get a real clear indication of how she thought of you if she stuck around during the police arrival.

Things like this DO happen in the US but usually the motivation to stay out of it is physical fear rather than fear of political/police reprisal. Even by Ukrainian standards a serious crime is being committed here but the boy has a VERY solid roof over his head. No politician in the US would get away with this. Even the Pretendident would be pulled off and restrained by his SS detail.

[Rubicon]

Excellent post ECocks.  I wonder what the father of the girl is planning to do, if anything.  I think you know if it was my daughter or your daughter we would be doing everything possible to see that this guy comes to some sort of justice.  It's frustrating as hell to watch this and to think that the entire system over there protects him.  I really do hope that eventually it changes for the better.

[ECOCKS]

If it had happened to one of my daughters, the die would be cast. Someone would pay for it. A better question than, "How do you think her father reacted?" would be, "How do you think her MOTHER would have reacted?"

Again, you might be VERY surprised at MAMA's response to learning her daughter was involved in something like this, VERY surprised.

[Rubicon]

If it had happened to one of my daughters, the die would be cast. Someone would pay for it. A better question than, "How do you think her father reacted?" would be, "How do you think her MOTHER would have reacted?"

Again, you might be VERY surprised at MAMA's response to learning her daughter was involved in something like this, VERY surprised.

I agree 100% that the die would be cast.  I don't care how long it took, or how much money and careful planning.

I would like to know how the mother would react??  You've got to be kidding me, if you say what I think you might...

[ECOCKS]

I remember incidents that gave me pause.

The gypsy beggars get little from the locals, relying mostly on foreigners. Seems charity isn't very prevalent in a near-subsistence society.

My wife was aghast when I stopped to give my name and number as a witness to a car wreck that happened in front of us (in the US). She was validated somewhat when the girl who rear-ended the guy in front of me claimed I had rear-ended her and knocker her into him. She was shocked that the police investigated and laughed off the claim but apprehensive while driving to the police station to show them our car.

A woman I dated a couple of times was pretty nonchalant about bribing her two sons' out of military service and felt no sense of compulsion to follow the conscription law.

Matters of principle are, perhaps, less important when you were raised to believe you're powerless as an individual. Consequences for your family might lead to different priorities when considering the impact of your loss/sacrifice on the behalf of others. While you might feel less a man, honor might not be above loyalty to family in certain cultures where there is no connection with other members of society, only your duty to the state.

[Boethius]

Ed, my husband worked in the city centre in Kyiv, and he knew every "beggar" on a first name basis.  Those gypsies mostly had huge houses outside the city limits.  They also rented children for 10 rubles a day, and I'm sure that hasn't changed.  He said one gypsy who used to sit on Khreshchatyk with an icon and a baby (rented) dressed in rags raked in 100 rubles a day.  That was at a time when 300 rubles was a huge salary.  She didn't want to talk to him after he told her "I saw you giving the baby to her mother." (he saw the "transaction" in a little park downtown), which caused a panic in her eyes (not that he thought much of the mother).  He also knew a beggar couple in front of St. Volodymyr Cathedral.  They raked in more in a day than he made in a month, and drank only the most expensive cognac and ate caviar.  They were still there when we visited last summer. 

He never gave money to beggars, and when asked, he used to say "Tell me your story.  If it is interesting enough, I'll give you money."  He said the story had to be something new, something inventive enough that they "worked" for that money, and that was because he knew that most of them made more money than he did, and would avoid asking him for money in the future.  But he was very generous with the Church, and helped the elderly.  An old woman in his neighbourhood left him a sizable sum of money when she died.  He had always carried her groceries to her apartment for her, fixed things in her apartment, etc.  He took the whole inheritance and dropped it in the donations box at St. Volodymyr.

[Rubicon]

That's a great story but I want to know what Ukrainians are going to do about this dirty SOB councilboy from Lugansk.  It's truly a shame to me if there is not one person in the whole county (I can't remember what you call it so I will call it a county) of Lugansk who doesn't have the courage to give this guy a good and proper beatdown.  What is the purpose of life if you cannot live free??  We used to say better dead then red; now I would at least say better dead than a surf.

[Boethius]

Lugansk is a small city and also a region (oblast).

It is easy to say that from your comfortable perspective, Rubicon.

[Rubicon]

Lugansk is a small city and also a region (oblast).

It is easy to say that from your comfortable perspective, Rubicon.

My "perspective" has not always been so comfortable Boethius.  I did my time in the military and I've got plenty of scar tissue all over my body, and I don't regret one tiny bit of it.  It's pretty sad to me to see a country cower in fear of their bureaucrats when I know there is a better way.  We all make our beds, and we all must sleep in them.

[Boethius]

You have never lived in a totalitarian state, and you have never lived in a state where position matters, and can be abused, no matter where you go, whether inside or outside your job.  I have seen FSU individuals here who were "something" there, and they cannot get used to the fact that no one here "respects" their position/education, etc. 

This is not a fear of bureaucrats.  It is fear of living in a society of lawlessness.


When you have had these experiences, you will have a very different perspective.

[JohnDearGreen]

It's pretty sad to me to see a country cower in fear of their bureaucrats when I know there is a better way.  We all make our beds, and we all must sleep in them.

Here is one example why you don't want to jump into a fight in FSU.  And why you don't want the media coming to your aide:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/andrei-loshak/corruption-complicity-careerism-hydra-of-russian-justice
The Moscow City Court, headed by the fearsome Olga Yegorova, simply decided to teach a few braying journalists a lesson by inventing the story. The fact that a man’s life was being destroyed by the case didn’t seem to worry them. This much would seem to be indirectly confirmed by Judge Belkina’s conversations with Zaika’s lawyer, Evgenii Kharlamov. Kharlamov said that after the TV programme, Belkina summoned him to explain that “higher authorities” would simply misunderstand a “not guilty” verdict. If, after all this fuss, Zaika was acquitted, people might think that the court had yielded to the influence of bloggers and journalists. Which was clearly an unacceptable situation.

[Rubicon]

Excellent article you posted, John.  The author of the article calls the Russian judicial system "the banality of evil".  There is a photo of "judge" Olga Yegarova inside the article and she looks like she is straight from hell.  That is one sinister evil looking creature.


“The majority of judges in Russia are women, and they value their status enormously. They’ve all got families with children. The one thing they fear more than anything else is finding themselves on the street without a job. I try to say to them: “look at me, I’m here, earning an honest salary”. To which they answer: “yes, but you’re a man and it’s easier for you — what can we do?” The only thing these women think about is themselves: getting a good salary, pension, benefits and status. Well, and the opportunity to be on the take, of course. And are they likely to put this all at risk for the sake of some Zaika fellow? Not a chance! They are more than happy putting up with the sight of a few tormented guys to preserve these benefits.




Sounds like some of the pro daters some guys have had the misfortune of "dating".  Sometimes I really wonder why I ever started on this journey.  Consequently my next country that I visit is going to be Nato and EU countries of either Latvia or Estonia, where I think there is a much better chance of meeting a woman sincerely interested in me, as opposed to a woman who is just interested in finding the next available western meal ticket out of Totaliaria.

[Boethius]

Ukraine is no longer a totalitarian state.  Go back to Nat's post.  It is a mindset that will take a long time to change. 

[55North]

Ukraine is no longer a totalitarian state.  Go back to Nat's post.  It is a mindset that will take a long time to change.

The present government is certainly giving a fair impression of totalitarianism as the way forward.  The lawbreaking of the lawmakers is breathtaking.  People will die with greatly reduced life quality as the result.
 
http://foreignnotes.blogspot.com/2011/07/breathaking-arrogance-of-yanukovych-and.html
 
Rubicon, check Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania.  An extremely pleasant town to waste time and money in, with the cutest of airports to hang in.   

[Boethius]

This was happening before this government in Ukraine as well.  However, lawlessness and totalitarianism are distinct.  People can leave the country, and access to information is not controlled.  People can demonstrate.  They are free to express their opinions and criticize the government. 

[Ade]

Ukraine is no longer a totalitarian state.  Go back to Nat's post.  It is a mindset that will take a long time to change.

It's this ingrained mindset a lot of FSUW tend to have that Westerners have a very hard time comprehending or even seeing when it's in front of their face; it leads to a survivor mentality and, to coin an Edism, "prioritized principles" or what I've called, flexible morals.

[Rubicon]

Ukraine is no longer a totalitarian state.  Go back to Nat's post.  It is a mindset that will take a long time to change.

Really????????  You certainly could have fooled me.  First you tell me that I am naive because I want something done about it; and that there is nothing to be done because his father is a powerful MP who jokes about beating up policeman, and that it's just toooooo bad, that's the way it is over there, accept it.

Then you tell me this gem:

"You have never lived in a totalitarian state, and you have never lived in a state where position matters, and can be abused, no matter where you go, whether inside or outside your job.  I have seen FSU individuals here who were "something" there, and they cannot get used to the fact that no one here "respects" their position/education, etc. 

This is not a fear of bureaucrats.  It is fear of living in a society of lawlessness."

Then we have a bunch of other posters who tell me that if I had been there and touched the worthless POS weasel, that it is I who would have suffered and been arrested, that nobody would witness against him; in fact they would all testify against me and I would be in the slammer hoping to get out whenst upon I would be quickly husseled out of the country sans any money which I may have had which would have been kindly taken off my person by the noble police.

Then we have JohnDearGreen who so graciously posted an in depth article about the depth of the depravity of the prosecutors office in Moscow, and how the police had so GENEROUSLY offered to allow the awful offender to bribe his way out of the system, but alas he was not a party member, er I mean "elite totalitarian society" member, and thus he HAD to go to prison for at least a year, as the good folks in the justice department (who might as well get their law degrees in a Cracker Box; since they are completely worthless and not at all important in weighing such trivial things such as evidence, true guilt or true innocence) MUST receive either a large bribe, or send an innocent man to prison, no iffs ands or butts in this wonderful wacky society, which is certainly NOT a totalitarian society, oh no heaven forbid if a journalist in Russia were to report that; they would soon be in a coma (or simply commit suicide at a strangely impossible angle for the weapon to be fired from by ones self) or unemployed like a female journalist in Ukraine recently found herself after offering slightly negative reporting about the state of affairs in Denmark, I mean Outland, I mean Ukraine. 

No no no certainly not a totalitarian regime, what an awful insidious false thought to have, we must call the dream police immediately and erase it!!!

Did I miss anything????  Sorry if I did, I really do aim to please.