If you asked me: "what's not to like in Ukraine?"

[The Natural]

Hi Natural,

It's great to hear from you.  You are a true friend, regardless of my past ornery behavior about politics. 

Well Rubicon, in the words of the late Michael Jackson; "I'm a lover, not a fighter"   
 

If you intend to remain Protestant, what would you do if your lady insisted that you became Orthodox??  I think I know the answer to that!!

Well, she is not going to insist on that as she's not practising anything which his a lot better  than practising what we have discussed here. This is something I made sure to make a note of when I first established permanent contact with her. I don't know much about the Orthodox method, but I have a suspicion it too, like Catholisism, practise "vain manmade traditions".

[ECOCKS]

Well, we talk sex, politics and money, so why not religion.

Personally, I would have difficulty with a gal who "insisted" on my conversion to her religion. I'd just move on. Not because of the religion but because of the glimpse this would give me of her personality and character.

Equally, I wouldn't care a whit if she converted to my religion. I could be married to a Orthodox Russian, Jew, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever IF SHE WAS THE RIGHT PERSON.

To me, specifying religion is like restricting possible relationships based on height, financial situation, hair color, body parts sizing ( ) and such. Silly.

[Rubicon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army
Ukraine had guerilla units until mid-1950s, who were killing young russian teachers and russian-speaking engineers who were sent to western villages by the Communist party.   

I come from Western Ukraine. In my area local people resisted russification even in late 70s - early 80s. In my town there were only 2 russian schools out of 28 total, the rest 26 were ukrainian. One of the first things that happened when they felt that USSR is going to collapse was introducing friendly welcome phrase for anyone speaking russian: "hang a russian on the branch" - "москаляку на гілляку." I was verbally attacked in public places by mean old and young people when they overheard me saying something in Russian, once by passengers in a bus when I said the russian word for "ticket" instead of ukrainian one. There were also instances of russian-speaking people physically attacked on streets of the town. Second thing that happened was that russian classes were cancelled in Ukrainian schools. Kids were learning english and german, but stopped learning russian. If this is not the "resistance to russification," - i don't know what is.
I agree with you: RW and UW have very different values than you do. Also, in Ukraine you will find few protestants but you will find quite many catholics and greek catholics.  But in terms of differences:  any other people from foreign countries are different. I do not think you will find same values as yours among Spanish people. If you want someone very similar to you - look in your hometown where you grew up, or lived, someone who has same experiences and influences as you had through your life.

Well, I've been properly corrected here my you Mies, and I needed to be.  I don't think I like the way the western Ukrainians were treating you and others who made a mistake to speak a Russian word anymore then I liked it the other way around.  Has it gotten any better??

[Rubicon]

You don't have to tell me the history.  Some of my husband's family is from both of those countries, where towns are named after them.  However, the Germans in that region did, in fact, speak Russian.   Have you ever heard of Alexei von Rudiger?  (Note - His first ancestors were Swedes, but they intermarried with Germans.)  Furthermore, Estonia has more atheists than believers.
 
   
 
You mean like these Protestants?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals


That is an extremely broad statement, an over generalization, and inaccurate. You are also mixing two different things; an atheistic culture created by communism, and religious belief.  Most Estonians and Latvians of today are products of the very same society as the Slavs that surround them.  Latvia is known, incidentally, as the EU's favourite sex tourist destination.
 
What makes you think an Orthodox believer does not value the inner person and character?  And, if this is what you truly value, why are you looking for an olive skinned beauty?  Why not settle for a fat, but inwardly beautiful AW?

As a Christian, you surely are aware that you cannot know what is in a person's heart.  Only God can know that.
 
 
 
To some it is, but to many, it is not.  My husband was a practicing Christian during Soviet times.  I can think of a whole lot of people who were practicing Christians then as well.
 
 
You can find the same beliefs in most countries, including the U.S.  The difference is that in Russia and Ukraine, there is no established rule of law, so the lawlessness means that, as an ordinary citizen, your options are far more restricted.

I think when you are speaking about that situation is Latvia (sex industry) you must be speaking about Riga and not smaller towns out in the country side.

My perceptions about Orthodox Christians were made by a lady I was dating and a couple others who I met.  The video we saw also helps me to formulate my opinion that in general people in FSU just do not want to help others who really do need help.  I see that as a major problem and character flaw and it bothers me.  Back to the lady I was dating and a couple others I met--they were probably not practicing their belief's on a regular basis.  The lady I was dating turned out to be a very bad apple--beautiful on the outside, rotten on the inside.

I am human Boethius, so as a tall athletic somewhat handsome male I would like to date a somewhat slender attractive fit female.  Like many others I hope to find a lady who is not only beautiful on the outside but beautiful on the inside.

I think we have a small difference of opinion about knowing what is in someones heart.  I believe that it is certainly possible to learn this after time spent with a person. 

Now I expected that you guys were going to crucify me for my statements but instead you have been very diplomatic and kind.  Thank you.  The old saying is that "the more I learn, the more I learn, how much I have to learn".

[Rubicon]

Well, we talk sex, politics and money, so why not religion.

Personally, I would have difficulty with a gal who "insisted" on my conversion to her religion. I'd just move on. Not because of the religion but because of the glimpse this would give me of her personality and character.

Equally, I wouldn't care a whit if she converted to my religion. I could be married to a Orthodox Russian, Jew, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever IF SHE WAS THE RIGHT PERSON.

To me, specifying religion is like restricting possible relationships based on height, financial situation, hair color, body parts sizing ( ) and such. Silly.

For me  value a person who has a belief in a higher power, who has a spiritual quality about her.  I do prefer however that she has somewhat of a Christian foundation because it's so much easier to have a unified roof for children and to go to church as a family when you do go.  So for me it is important enough that I hope we are on the same page in this regard.

[Rubicon]

Well I expected to get crucified and bullied over some of my silly comments and it may yet happen but I thank those who have answered who were very kind and diplomatic in your answers.  I have a lot to think about and I am not sure exactly how I'm going to proceed from here. 

I would very much like to visit Latvia and Estonia at least for tourist reasons so we'll see if by chance I might also be able to me a woman I like there.  As Boethius has so correctly pointed out they were part of the former communist system so perhaps I am being idealistic when I think that they might be better in certain regards.

As to Spain I've been there before and loved it as a warm beautiful vacation spot with friendly people and beautiful sometimes exotic looking women.  It is now an alternative to Mexico without fear of all of the unfortunate drug violence which is going on there.  If I join some sort of internet singles group and can round up some dates when there so much the better.

[mendeleyev]

Not to argue with Ecocks, someone for whom I have a great deal of respect, but as an Orthodox Christian it was a "Top 5" on my list when looking for a mate. To be in synch spiritually is something I value and thankfully Mrs Mendeleyeva, a lifelong Orthodox, shares that view. Had she been anything else, knowing about the practice of Orthodoxy, likely we'd not have been married.

When the 40 day fast (from meat, poultry, diary, etc) comes before Christmas and again before Easter, we're on the same page. When Christmas arrives on 7 January instead of 25 December, we're on the same page. When certain saint days or feasts are celebrated, we're in step. When we pray at night, we use the same prayer book and enjoy the same icons. It's just so much easier that way.

I respect other Christians and other faiths and do not wish to make light of their beliefs, but mine are important to me and I am very fortunate to have a wife with the same outlook in this area.

Obviously religion can't be the only box to check off when searching. What good would it be to marry a person of the same faith if they were a liar, a cheat, unfaithful, etc?

[Boethius]

Updating the story, the perpetrator has been arrested in Russia, and is on his way back to Lugansk.

[ECOCKS]

No argument at all Mendy. As I was trying to imply, religion is an intensely personal thing. Your personality, character, values, etc. call for unity in spiritual affairs, mine doesn't. That's all.

My expectation in this regard, based upon my beliefs and morality, is one of tolerance and general respect for those who tolerate and have a general respect for mine. I would expect her cooperation during my exercise of beliefs but your expectation is based upon a desire that you both be in total synch. So be it.

This is one of those things like finances, foods, living location, sex for that matter, that has relative importance to the individual, it's not a universal constant.

If it wasn't for differences, then we'd each just marry the person physically nearest and proceed with procreation and pursuing some sort of hive existence.

Vive' la Difference!

[Rubicon]

Not to argue with Ecocks, someone for whom I have a great deal of respect, but as an Orthodox Christian it was a "Top 5" on my list when looking for a mate. To be in synch spiritually is something I value and thankfully Mrs Mendeleyeva, a lifelong Orthodox, shares that view. Had she been anything else, knowing about the practice of Orthodoxy, likely we'd not have been married.

When the 40 day fast (from meat, poultry, diary, etc) comes before Christmas and again before Easter, we're on the same page. When Christmas arrives on 7 January instead of 25 December, we're on the same page. When certain saint days or feasts are celebrated, we're in step. When we pray at night, we use the same prayer book and enjoy the same icons. It's just so much easier that way.

I respect other Christians and other faiths and do not wish to make light of their beliefs, but mine are important to me and I am very fortunate to have a wife with the same outlook in this area.

Obviously religion can't be the only box to check off when searching. What good would it be to marry a person of the same faith if they were a liar, a cheat, unfaithful, etc?

It seems to me that you are a living testament that Orthodox Christians can be just as spiritual if not more so than other Christians or those of other faiths.  I agree with you that it would be very nice and preferable to have someone who wishes to share the same practices and traditions.

[Rubicon]

Updating the story, the perpetrator has been arrested in Russia, and is on his way back to Lugansk.

That is very good to hear.  Hopefully he will be given an appropriate jail or prison sentence and not just a slap on the wrist, although I fear the latter.  The young woman is going to be emotionally scarred by this event for some time to come.  Perhaps this event will become a turning point for Ukraine where enough citizens do begin to rise up and do the right thing and demand justice for their fellow citizens and demand that the "elites" at the top are held accountable for actions.  I'm not holding my breath but there is always hope that slowly but surely things can and should be improved for the benefit of all the people in that society, not just those with money and political connections.

[Rubicon]

Exactly what I was thinking.   Imagine what she was saying.  There are low class people in both genders.   Still, there is no excuse for what the young thug did.

Gator you said:  You are setting a new standard for know-it-all bloviating.  (about me). 

But then you go on to agree with someone else that it was not her first fight because she attempted to strike the man with a bottle.  You have no way of know that one way or another.  She most certainly had a right to attempt to defend herself and the bottle was probably the most convenient and potentially effective thing she could find in a split second. 

Saying that she is "low class" is in incredibly poor taste IMO and smacks of blaming the victim for what the attacker did.  Women have long complained that some men will attempt to blame the victim and in this case we can see that classical scenario repeating itself.  He (the attacker) gave false witness to the police about her actions, and here you are referring her to being as low class.  I think you should seriously reconsider that statement.

[mies]

Has it gotten any better??

To tell you the truth: I don't know. I moved from there when I was 17. I am 32 now. Last time I visited was 4 years ago and the visit was short. I do not make any more mistakes of speaking russian in my native town, and I also think that situation is a bit better now: the people are less aggressive towards russians because they "let the steam out" in the early years of Ukrainian independence. But they still strongly oppose russification and any possibility of annexing Ukraine to Russia.

[Rubicon]

To tell you the truth: I don't know. I moved from there when I was 17. I am 32 now. Last time I visited was 4 years ago and the visit was short. I do not make any more mistakes of speaking russian in my native town, and I also think that situation is a bit better now: the people are less aggressive towards russians because they "let the steam out" in the early years of Ukrainian independence. But they still strongly oppose russification and any possibility of annexing Ukraine to Russia.

Your country flag says Ukraine.  Do you live in eastern Ukraine now??  I am hoping to visit Lvov someday soon and I hope I do not have any problems if I ask for things in Russian as I have a limited vocabulary of things in Russian to help me get by, but no knowledge of Ukrainian at all.

[Boethius]

Lesson 1.  Don't call it L'vov.  It is L'viv.

[mendeleyev]

Updating the story, the perpetrator has been arrested in Russia, and is on his way back to Lugansk.

Good news.

Now will be the real test, to see what happens in the courts (if it goes to court without being buried first).

[Rubicon]

Lesson 1.  Don't call it L'vov.  It is L'viv.

Let me guess:  L'vov is Russian and L'viv is Ukrainian??   

I read somewhere to pronounce it L'vev!!

[Gator]

Gator you said:  You are setting a new standard for know-it-all bloviating.  (about me).

Yes, I did and yes you are.
 
You seem to draw conclusions and take overzealous positions based on your intuition and emotions.  Then you attempt to justify your belief/conclusion/opinion with logic that you think plausible even though some of your reasons are not relevant and perhaps not true.   That is called rationalization, something that rubs me wrong.
 
You say other crap that also makes me ignore you  for the most part.  I suggest that you do the same.
 
 

But then you go on to agree with someone else that it was not her first fight because she attempted to strike the man with a bottle.  You have no way of know that one way or another.  She most certainly had a right to attempt to defend herself and the bottle was probably the most convenient and potentially effective thing she could find in a split second.
 
Saying that she is "low class" is in incredibly poor taste IMO...

 
How many women do you know  would be prepared, willing and able to hit someone in the head with a bottle?    Is this one of your criteria for your dream woman?   I admire the woman for fighting back, yet she paid the price.  Something that would have happened to you if you had "walked the talk" you posted earlier.

...and smacks of blaming the victim for what the attacker did.  Women have long complained that some men will attempt to blame the victim...

 
I do not blame the victim.  Wearing a sexy dress does not justify rape.  Retaliation to assault does not justify beating a woman and dragging her by the hair.   
 
 
 

He (the attacker) gave false witness to the police about her actions, and here you are referring her to being as low class.  I think you should seriously reconsider that statement.

Typical way you attempt to defend your conclusions (as I mentioned in my first comment in this post).  The attacker giving false witness is not relevant to her being or not being from the underclass.
 
Rubicon, do you have internal conflicts?

[mendeleyev]

Rubicon, this is a cool lesson from Boethius on how to write and say the name of this great Ukrainian city!

Львів is L'viv = Ukrainian

Львов is L'vov = Russian

A cool way to hear the differences in how they're spoken is to go to link which pronounce words.

One of the best for Russian words is http://www.oddcast.com/home/demos/tts/tts_example.php and cut/paste words into the box. You can choose from 4 difference voices to hear how the word sounds but unfortunately they don't do Ukrainian.

However Google translate does at http://translate.google.com/#ru|en| but sometimes their pronunciation is a little off on some languages.


Boethius, normally the last letter in the Russian Львов is changed to a "ehf" sound because of the grammar rules on voiced/voiceless consonants. Would that rule or something similar be true in Ukrainian?

[Rubicon]

Yes, I did and yes you are.
 
You seem to draw conclusions and take overzealous positions based on your intuition and emotions.  Then you attempt to justify your belief/conclusion/opinion with logic that you think plausible even though some of your reasons are not relevant and perhaps not true.   That is called rationalization, something that rubs me wrong.
 
You say other crap that also makes me ignore you  for the most part.  I suggest that you do the same.
 
 
 
How many women do you know  would be prepared, willing and able to hit someone in the head with a bottle?    Is this one of your criteria for your dream woman?   I admire the woman for fighting back, yet she paid the price.  Something that would have happened to you if you had "walked the talk" you posted earlier.
 
 
I do not blame the victim.  Wearing a sexy dress does not justify rape.  Retaliation to assault does not justify beating a woman and dragging her by the hair.   
 
 
 
Typical way you attempt to defend your conclusions (as I mentioned in my first comment in this post).  The attacker giving false witness is not relevant to her being or not being from the underclass.
 
Rubicon, do you have internal conflicts?

Now you are the one who is trying to rationalize what you said.  You referred to her as being lower class and that is completely inappropriate.  You should just admit it and say it was a mistake to say so.

I think most women would be prepared to hit an attacker in the head with a bottle, and I commend her for making the split second decision to do so.

I do walk the talk.  I've defended (physically) a woman who was being savagely beaten before and I would do it again, no regrets.

Do you have internal conflicts because you are afraid to stand up to bullies yet more than willing to criticize and condemn those who do so??

Take a good look in the mirror and think again about what you said about the girl.  I really doubt you would like it if someone said that about one of your relatives if she also had the misfortune of going through a vicious attack.

[Boethius]

Mendy, there is a "voicelessness" of "v".  Russified Ukrainians will pronounce it in Ukrainian as a soft "f", but in Ukrainian, it is more "silent".   A Canadian friend of mine, who I helped to arrange to study in Kyiv, was used by her Ukrainian language professor as the "model" for Ukrainian language students on these pronunciations, because hers was the correct Ukrainian pronunciation, lost after generations of Russification.

L'viv is more of an English "i" sound. 

[Rubicon]

Rubicon, this is a cool lesson from Boethius on how to write and say the name of this great Ukrainian city!

Львів is L'viv = Ukrainian

Львов is L'vov = Russian

A cool way to hear the differences in how they're spoken is to go to link which pronounce words.

One of the best for Russian words is http://www.oddcast.com/home/demos/tts/tts_example.php and cut/paste words into the box. You can choose from 4 difference voices to hear how the word sounds but unfortunately they don't do Ukrainian.

However Google translate does at http://translate.google.com/#ru|en| but sometimes their pronunciation is a little off on some languages.


Boethius, normally the last letter in the Russian Львов is changed to a "ehf" sound because of the grammar rules on voiced/voiceless consonants. Would that rule or something similar be true in Ukrainian?

Thanks Mendy.

I thought it was just "Lev" but I went to Google translate and it is either La Viv
or La Vov.  La Viv is obviously preferred in Western Ukraine and in the city itself as that is the Ukrainian version. 

Just curious, does it mean "Lion" by any chance??  When in Germany one of my favorite brews was authentic Lowenbrau, brewed in Germany I believe since 1363 under the Rheinheitsgebote (Germany purity law for beer which requires just pure natural ingredients and no chemicals or stabilizers at all)  It is pronounced  Lewvenbroy, which means literally Lions Brew.

[mendeleyev]

Mendy, there is a "voicelessness" of "v".  Russified Ukrainians will pronounce it in Ukrainian as a soft "f", but in Ukrainian, it is more "silent".   A Canadian friend of mine, who I helped to arrange to study in Kyiv, was used by her Ukrainian language professor as the "model" for Ukrainian language students on these pronunciations, because hers was the correct Ukrainian pronunciation, lost after generations of Russification.

L'viv is more of an English "i" sound. 

Thank you! That was very helpful. 

[Jumper]

Sad,
but really just seems a typical drunk (or high) spoiled rich kid.

could happen  anywhere ,and yes i've seen similar videos in the west with equal
crowd apathy. Certainly seen far far worse.
(one girl beat initially,by another girl ,then the foe returns and beats her again into convulsions in a cafe ,while people step over her  convulsing on the floor,
 to leave rather than confront the attacker who is still beating on her unconscious body.)


 Sure you'd also see vids in the west, and in the FSU ,where more on lookers would jump in to protect her.
 

As far as body guard, sheesh, seriously  you have to be kidding me.
Nothing about the large man (or anyone present in the vids)
presents itself as someone trained in any way whatsoever (armed or not) to be a body guard ,nor did he do his job.

I understand the  implications in Ukraine, and the fact normally this kid would  get away with just about anything he wants within the sphere of his fathers influence,

but honestly, if that's the best his rather arrogant father can hire,
then the kid  needs to behave himself better,  or have young girls beat him up routinely
with bottles.

Its enough of an incident he got arrested, that's amazing in itself..
i'd wager he has done far worse without any hiccups.
He might even have to do time for assault,that wil be shocking if he does.

[mendeleyev]

Ukrainian youth about their native language:



(photo: http://smetanka.tumblr.com/post/1251240772/the-last-picture-from-mondays-language-rally)


The quote, surprisingly from Karl Marx, indicates that it’s okay only for “a guest, a slave and an occupier” to be speaking a language that’s not the official language of the state in which they reside.