Re: Tragedy in Norway

[GQBlues]

Thanks for asking. We are fine and an hour away from the explosion, but reports are that 2 have died so far and quite a few injured. Police have said it was a bomb. No one is sure yet what the target was because it was close to the government ministry and the office of oil/gas administration as well as some popular papers.

As you'd expect, people are in shock.

 
Thoughts and prayers to all of you in Norway, Ade.
 
%#!#  Qaddafi previously released the statement that retributions will be made against those on the forefront of the NATO assault in Libya.

[Ade]

 
Thoughts and prayers to all of you in Norway, Ade.
 
%#!#  Qaddafi previously released the statement that retributions will be made against those on the forefront of the NATO assault in Libya.

With all countries helping out in various conflicts, threats abound. However, it's not sure that this isn't anything other than some internal terrorist attack. Lots of kids are reported shot dead now; at least 10 with many more injured.

It's a really sad day for Norway and an end to innocence no matter who was behind it.

[Ade]

Boe, can you split off or remove these posts please. It hardly seems respectful to the huge numbers of people that died to have them in this thread. Thanks.

[Anotherkiwi]

Boe, can you split off or remove these posts please. It hardly seems respectful to the huge numbers of people that died to have them in this thread. Thanks.

Death toll is now reported to be 84 or 87 - what terrible tragedies, both caused by the same man.  Our thoughts are with the people of Norway.

[The Natural]

This terror is difficult to comprehend. People cannot believe how it is possible to be so evil.
 
Anders Behring Breivik killed 7 people in the bomb blast in Oslo before he went to Utøya, dressed as a cop he caught a ride with the organizers boat to the island where he gathered as many people around him as possible before in cold blood gunning them down. Reports tell that there were around 600-700 people on this youth political summer camp. The official death toll there so far is 84.

[Gator]

My condolences to Norway.
 
The suspect is a home grown terrorist.  Sad indeed if true, described as a "right-wing white Christian fundamentalist." His photo looks like someone who could do advertisements for cross country skiing (or Aryan purity).  If Christian, his Christian beliefs failed him.  Surely he is mentally deranged, or he is a member of a militia movement subculture, if you have such in Norway.
 
Within the US the white middle class is the most likely source of terrorist  acts.  The DHS (Dept of Homeland Security) will not admit such, but a recent video it produced implies such.  One reason why all airline passengers undergo security screening. 
 
Ade, you called it an "end to innocence."  In America it was the repression of some precious freedoms.  Although we do not restrict it as far as Russia with its aggressive profiling and other initiatives.   It is too early to know what Norway will do.

[Ade]

My condolences to Norway.
 
The suspect is a home grown terrorist.  Sad indeed if true, described as a "right-wing white Christian fundamentalist." His photo looks like someone who could do advertisements for cross country skiing (or Aryan purity).  If Christian, his Christian beliefs failed him.  Surely he is mentally deranged, or he is a member of a militia movement subculture, if you have such in Norway.
 
Within the US the white middle class is the most likely source of terrorist  acts.  The DHS (Dept of Homeland Security) will not admit such, but a recent video it produced implies such.  One reason why all airline passengers undergo security screening. 
 
Ade, you called it an "end to innocence."  In America it was the repression of some precious freedoms.  Although we do not restrict it as far as Russia with its aggressive profiling and other initiatives.   It is too early to know what Norway will do.

Yes, he seems to be an ultra right wing Conservative Christian. Seems like insanity is not particular about people's faith.

I truly hope that Norway will resist any calls to implement draconian security measures. Norway already goes out of its way to protect people from themselves, some say overly so. Still, Norway feels safe and open in general. Less so than it used to when I first visited here 20 years ago, but that's not surprising given the recent influx of immigrants from less civilised parts of the world.

But I think it is inevitable that it will change the way most people think of life here, after all, if this guy could do this on his own, what could a dedicated terrorist cell manage? People are bound to feel less safe, less isolated from the attacks that have occurred in larger more prominent countries. Perhaps the isolationists and xenophobes will get more of an upper hand in the next elections. The FRP party may well get a sudden boost too; they want far more restrictive immigration policies.

[ECOCKS]

Shame.

This is the world we live in now though, get used to it.

I expect much, much worse in the not-too-distant future.

[CanadaMan]

Ed can you explain why you have a photo of an armed military couple (machine guns) standing in front of a suburban house as your RWD member photo?

[Maxx2]

I'm more afraid of the banksters than white al Qaeda.

[Vincenzo]

It's strange, but these shootings never happen in a court or a police station. A shooter will be killed immediately as many people have guns.

If it's a campus, anybody can shoot indefinitely because guns are prohibited there.

[Gator]

It's strange, but these shootings never happen in a court or a police station. A shooter will be killed immediately as many people have guns.

From Wiki:
 

Brian Gene Nichols (born December 10, 1971) is known for his escape and killing spree in the Fulton County courthouse in Atlanta, Georgia on March 11, 2005. Nichols was on trial for rape when he escaped from custody and murdered the judge presiding over his trial, a court reporter, a Sheriff's Deputy, and later a Federal agent. A large-scale manhunt was launched in the metropolitan Atlanta area, and Nichols was taken into custody 26 hours later. The prosecution charged him with committing 54 crimes during the escape and he was found guilty on all counts on November 7, 2008.

[Gator]

Ed can you explain why you have a photo of an armed military couple (machine guns) standing in front of a suburban house as your RWD member photo?

Interesting indeed whether literal or figurative.

[ECOCKS]

Ed can you explain why you have a photo of an armed military couple (machine guns) standing in front of a suburban house as your RWD member photo?

Yeah, read the post just above yours. It should be self-evident.

Oh, that is a "civilian couple", not a "military couple". They are assault rifles, not "machineguns". Civilian models are "semi-automatic" rather than true automatic weapons.

Vincenzo's comment is well-taken. The incident cited as some sort of inane response involves a prisoner escape rather than an attack. Always interesting how some idiots want to search immediately and try to apply isolated incidents as some sort of "Look at what I found, you're wrong" response when their ideals are threatened by reality.

The fact is that few criminals attempt to rob gun stores or attack police stations in the United States. A "gun culture" leads to people who are familiar with the use of firearms. It's one reason our military and police personnel are more effective in combat.

The fact is that this guy in Norway stalked young people and adults around an island for an hour and a half, killing with impunity, while the authorities scrambled to arm up and find tactical transport. When they arrived, he surrendered. I'm sure that is cold comfort to the families of all the dead children and young adults murdered.

Norway should be shaken by this event. It's a wake-up call for repressive societies which attempt to over-control their populations through over-regulation, politically correct appeasement and necessary compromise. To many, compromise is just one step on the road to their objective.

Legally armed and carrying citizens stop crime far more often than they contribute to it. Armed police rarely stop crime in progress, as we see here they respond to an event with varying degrees of success.

Our restaurant had 35 armed police (9) and civilians (26), including one of our legislators, last week. Everyone was polite when parking their cars in the lot, said please when asking for ketchup and there were smiles everywhere.

An armed society is a polite society. - attributed to Robert Heinlein.

[ECOCKS]

A much better response would have been to cite the Tyler Texas Courthouse shooting in 2005 where a man ambushed his wife and son at the Courthouse where they were seeking a support agreement related to their divorce. Despite the presence of several police and an armed civilian handgun instructor, the gunman, who was wearing body armor, managed to kill both his wife and the unarmored but well-armed civilian. Three other police officers, along with the gunman's son, were wounded.

Of course, he was driven off and killed as he tried to escape the scene but that probably doesn't prove some obscure point.

The civilian was later determined to have hit the gunman several times in the center body area but the armor held. This incident focused tactical training to shift from a doctrine of 2 to the center of body mass to 2 CBM followed by one to the head.

Fortunately, no idiots attempted to shoot the gun from the guy's hand during the event. A police sniper killed him with an AR-15 tactical rifle after a short chase.

[Gator]

Vincenzo's comment is well-taken. The incident cited as some sort of inane response involves a prisoner escape rather than an attack. Always interesting how some idiots want to search immediately and try to apply isolated incidents as some sort of "Look at what I found, you're wrong" response when their ideals are threatened by reality.

It is difficult to communicate with the right wing gun crowd after a spree killing.  They tend to feel justified for arming themselves, and react emotionally to criticism.  Ed, I am not criticizing you with that comment.  You have the right afforded by the Second Amendment to own firearms.  However, I find it amusing and illustrative when your emotions prompt you to call me an idiot (don't deny it, you called me an idiot).   
 
I did not need to search immediately.  The case was in my memory.   I quoted a source merely for the less informed such as Vincenzo. It also illustrates a point that perhaps evades you.
 
Ed, you termed the Atlanta courtroom shooting an "isolated incident as some sort of 'Look at what I found, you're wrong.' " I assert that courtroom shootings are less isolated than spree killings at youth camps. 
 
The important point is that some people are crazy and capable of anything.  In a country of 300 million I am not surprised that we have not had more spree killings.  Arming the citizens is one answer.   Preventing crazed people from obtaining guns is another.  Nevertheless, crazy is crazy and neither answer offers 100% security.  How many armed policemen and security were present at the Tuscon shootings?
 
I gather, however, from your military-type garb that you do not fear the crazies as much as riots and public disorder.  I am not saying it will not happen; however, it seems too remote to expend the energy and money to arm yourselves in a bunker mentality.  To me it seems like a homeowner building a bomb shelter in the 1950s.   
 
I will not research the statistics, yet is it not true that those people who own a gun are more likely to suffer an injury from a gun than people who do not own guns. 

[Gator]

Ed,
 
It feels a little strange to talk about gun control so soon after the shootings in Norway.   
 
BTW, I grew up in the South and did much hunting.  I served two years in the US Army and fired many different weapons.  I still keep a 20-ga shotgun around the house for killing cottonmouth moccasins.  However, the shells are on one floor and the shotgun on another.

[ECOCKS]

It is difficult to communicate with the left wing anti-gun crowd after a spree killing.  They tend to feel justified in proclaiming that guns kill people and react emotionally to criticism. Their First Amendment rights guarantee them the right to do so just as much as it gives others the right to point out the inaccuracies in their proclamations.

So, as for my "compulsion", it's no more of an event than when people who are anti-gun feel compelled to dredge up isolated incidents to attempt to justify "something". My initial observation had nothing to do with gun-control and was merely that these things are a shame as they have become more commonplace and that I expect more and more incidents like this to happen in the future. Subsequently, Vincenzo observed that these things happen where guns are restricted and you responded with your courtroom escape event.
 
Despite your avatar I doubt you have the coloration or teeth pictured. In a similar fashion, neither do I wear military clothing. I do however have several assault rifles and assorted other firearms for sporting and personal defensive situations.

Vincenzo makes a basic assertion which is pretty well-based on facts. More convenience and liquor stores are robbed than gunstores and police stations. Why can't you accept that instead of trying to come up with some inane example which isn't even similar to the situation (prisoner escaping versus an attack)?

As for the guns and likelihood of being injured by them......of course it is true.

Just as the following are true:

People in households with cars are more likely to be killed or injured in car accidents.

People in homes with knives are more likely to suffer from cuts.

People who go near the water are more likely to drown than those who don't.

People who fly in airplanes are more likely to be injured in air crashes than those who don't.

People who get married are more likely to end up being divorced than those who don't.

The list goes on and on.

So?

[Ade]

Yeah, read the post just above yours. It should be self-evident.

Oh, that is a "civilian couple", not a "military couple". They are assault rifles, not "machineguns". Civilian models are "semi-automatic" rather than true automatic weapons.

Vincenzo's comment is well-taken. The incident cited as some sort of inane response involves a prisoner escape rather than an attack. Always interesting how some idiots want to search immediately and try to apply isolated incidents as some sort of "Look at what I found, you're wrong" response when their ideals are threatened by reality.

The fact is that few criminals attempt to rob gun stores or attack police stations in the United States. A "gun culture" leads to people who are familiar with the use of firearms. It's one reason our military and police personnel are more effective in combat.

The fact is that this guy in Norway stalked young people and adults around an island for an hour and a half, killing with impunity, while the authorities scrambled to arm up and find tactical transport. When they arrived, he surrendered. I'm sure that is cold comfort to the families of all the dead children and young adults murdered.

Norway should be shaken by this event. It's a wake-up call for repressive societies which attempt to over-control their populations through over-regulation, politically correct appeasement and necessary compromise. To many, compromise is just one step on the road to their objective.

Legally armed and carrying citizens stop crime far more often than they contribute to it. Armed police rarely stop crime in progress, as we see here they respond to an event with varying degrees of success.

Our restaurant had 35 armed police (9) and civilians (26), including one of our legislators, last week. Everyone was polite when parking their cars in the lot, said please when asking for ketchup and there were smiles everywhere.

An armed society is a polite society. - attributed to Robert Heinlein.

I disagree with just about everything you've said.

Compared to any other country I've lived in or visited, Norway is not "over-controlled" and it certainly feels safer than any other. I'm not sure what you mean by "politically correct appeasement" either TBH, but I'm sure it is your way of applying a negative connotation to a society trying to integrate many cultures into one. A process which is relatively new to Norway, so it's bound to have issues that need to be worked out.

FWIW, the reason this gunman managed to kill so many, is that people couldn't run away. It was an island, not a school or a courtroom. This man planned this for years, and chose a peak common holiday week where most people (including the police) would be on vacation - to give you some idea, at the moment, there's at least 3/4 of the people at my offices currently on vacation. Even so, and even though the island where this occurred is more than 30 minutes from the center of Oslo, and even if a major bomb had just gone off there, they managed to get to the shore, get on boat, land an armed squad of police and arrest that dude within 60 minutes of the emergency call coming in. Pretty damned impressive in any country if you ask me.

Putting arms in the hands of adolescents would have probably made little difference except causing friendly fire incidents; this romantic idea that most normal people can remain calm enough to make rational decisions and accurately shoot the offending party during a fire fight is just silly.

As with other horrific acts like this, they are incredibly difficult to prevent when faced with a determined, intelligent attacker that is willing to plan and exploit weaknesses. Not unless you really want to live in a micro managed state or live in fear of being shot by every pissed off neighbour who has a gun - which we do not in Norway.

[Gator]

Ed,
 
You were the one calling me an idiot.  Coming from a normally level headed person, it impressed me as an emotional reaction.  Or is this simply the style of those packing firearms?  Or perhaps your vocabulary is limited?
 
Whatever, it is impossible to talk with you.  I hope you never feel compelled to use your firearms on another. 

I guess you stand behind you accusation that I am an idiot. 
 

[ECOCKS]

I disagree with just about everything you've said.

As I have the right to say it, disagreeing is certainly your right as well.

Compared to any other country I've lived in or visited, Norway is not "over-controlled" and it certainly feels safer than any other. I'm not sure what you mean by "politically correct appeasement" either TBH, but I'm sure it is your way of applying a negative connotation to a society trying to integrate many cultures into one. A process which is relatively new to Norway, so it's bound to have issues that need to be worked out.

I mean what I said, you should go back and read it rather than reacting emotionally and assuming something is anymore than a general observation about events such as this. We're seeing the effects of uncontrolled immigration and non-assimilation of culture in France, Russia, England and dozens of other countries coping with increasing immigrant populations. Canada and the U.S. are experiencing "honor killings" and encountering "silly" challenges to people having their pictures taken or being adequately identified for licensing, voting and transit.

By "issues that need to be worked out" I take it you mean ones where things like this occur? OoooooKAY, I wouldn't be a citizen in a country that placed me in the role of pending victim like that.

FWIW, the reason this gunman managed to kill so many, is that people couldn't run away. It was an island, not a school or a courtroom. This man planned this for years, and chose a peak common holiday week where most people (including the police) would be on vacation - to give you some idea, at the moment, there's at least 3/4 of the people at my offices currently on vacation. Even so, and even though the island where this occurred is more than 30 minutes from the center of Oslo, and even if a major bomb had just gone off there, they managed to get to the shore, get on boat, land an armed squad of police and arrest that dude within 60 minutes of the emergency call coming in. Pretty damned impressive in any country if you ask me.

Hmmm, well the news reports I am seeing say 90 minutes before they arrived on the island and cite confusion and lack of transport available to police. Our police are armed so yeah 60 minutes before anyone could hope to deal with the problem would be intolerable and not impressive unless it occurred a 100 miles or so away from a city or town.

You can believe that was the reason he managed to kill so many if you wish, I disagree.

Putting arms in the hands of adolescents would have probably made little difference except causing friendly fire incidents; this romantic idea that most normal people can remain calm enough to make rational decisions and accurately shoot the offending party during a fire fight is just silly.LOL - odd because my understanding of the population present at the included several dozen adults. the only one romanticizing things is you with this mental picture of 13 year olds and defensive firearms.

As for the rest, "normal" people stay calm every day and make rational decisions which result in accurate placement of their shots or avoidance of an exchange of fire entirely. Any other portrayal is "just silly.

Please feel free to provide statistics which support your original assertion. I know three people who have pulled their firearms under assault conditions in the last two years and none of them shot anyone other than their target. Still, maybe I only know abnormal people so you should look into proving your point over the anecdotal incidences I know of first-hand. I think you're in for a surprise.By the way, the romanticization is all yours. You're going off anti-gun propaganda that predicts bloody shootouts over parking spots, neighborhood altercations and cowboy reactions to robberies and assaults. Please provide factual information supporting these claims and present them in light of total number of events, fatalities and injuries. Simply, these are not the norm no matter what certain people or the media attempt to portray.

As with other horrific acts like this, they are incredibly difficult to prevent when faced with a determined, intelligent attacker that is willing to plan and exploit weaknesses. Not unless you really want to live in a micro managed state or live in fear of being shot by every pissed off neighbour who has a gun - which we do not in Norway.

Did you read this story? He IS your neighbor. I think you guys might be a bit more in fear of this than you were three days ago.

[CanadaMan]

CanadaMan:
"Ed can you explain why you have a photo of an armed military couple (machine guns) standing in front of a suburban house as your RWD member photo?"


ECocks:
"Oh, that is a "civilian couple", not a "military couple". "

Despite your avatar I doubt you have the coloration or teeth pictured. In a similar fashion, neither do I wear military clothing.

Ed, I think you can now see why I thought the couple might be a military one.
You yourself in your reply to Gator, stated that the clothing is military.
Hence, I saw military clothing and thought military couple.

[ECOCKS]

CanadaMan:
"Ed can you explain why you have a photo of an armed military couple (machine guns) standing in front of a suburban house as your RWD member photo?"


ECocks:
"Oh, that is a "civilian couple", not a "military couple". "

Ed, I think you can now see why I thought the couple might be a military one.
You yourself in your reply to Gator, stated that the clothing is military.
Hence, I saw military clothing and thought military couple.

Odds and ends of gear. The helmet s a military-style one. The Tactical Gear Vests are commonly purchased in a dozen places in my town (not miltary surplus stores either). Gator made the statement/assumption that I wear military clothing. No more accurate than most people's avatar is in portraying their actual appearance.

I used to have my regular picture there but think I changed it when my wife got into shooting and wanted more practice with the guns we have in the house.

[The Natural]

About weapons; police is not normally armed in Norway and it's not legal to carry for others either, except for hunting. It's not like in USA. There's not a culture for it and the youngsters on the island would never go for arming themselves even if they got the choice. Right or wrong, that's the culture.
You should be careful to rely on what the US media tell you, there are many instances of disinformation regarding the terror here.
 
About the response time after the police got the emergency call; it's correct that it took 60 minutes from the call until the shooter was arrested. A special force had to come from Oslo as it was apparent there were gunshots on the island. They have a helicopter but it is not for transport of people and equipment, so they had to drive the 50 kilometres, which by the way is 80 miles. Then they had to take boats to the island. Fortunately the mad gunman surrendered even though he had lots of more ammo.
 
Ecocks think we are more afraid here now than 3 days ago. Perhaps some are as many are still in shock. But we will not live in fear and will not surrender our open society for a false sense of security. All the top politicians and the King has said so several times and that has made me hopeful that this incident will not be used as a reason to go further into the 1984- society.
 
In a few hours I will go to the Oslo airport and I'm not the least bit afraid.

[Ade]

I mean what I said, you should go back and read it rather than reacting emotionally and assuming something is anymore than a general observation about events such as this. We're seeing the effects of uncontrolled immigration and non-assimilation of culture in France, Russia, England and dozens of other countries coping with increasing immigrant populations. Canada and the U.S. are experiencing "honor killings" and encountering "silly" challenges to people having their pictures taken or being adequately identified for licensing, voting and transit.

Of course immigration is "controlled". It certainly isn't a matter of showing up at the border. But there will always be clashes of cultures when immigration of any size occurs. It happens everywhere and in every country to a certain extent. Integration will occur eventually, but it's a slow generations long process. Or are you the type that thinks we should all become isolationists? All locked up in our own "racially pure" countries stagnating? 

By "issues that need to be worked out" I take it you mean ones where things like this occur? OoooooKAY, I wouldn't be a citizen in a country that placed me in the role of pending victim like that.

Things like this? You mean a insane Norwegian man killing mostly ethnic Norwegians and bombing his own democratically elected government? This wasn't an immigrant, he was a well off, privileged and educated man. But you are a citizen of a country like this; how about columbine, Oklahoma city, and the vast numbers of other mass murders by home grown terrorists. I guess all your armed civilians, military might, and spy networks didn't help much huh?

Hmmm, well the news reports I am seeing say 90 minutes before they arrived on the island and cite confusion and lack of transport available to police. Our police are armed so yeah 60 minutes before anyone could hope to deal with the problem would be intolerable and not impressive unless it occurred a 100 miles or so away from a city or town.

Ed, you should be reading the real reports, not the US dramatizations. The first call came in to the police 1 hour before they arrested him. I guess you now blame the victims for not managing to get a call out while they were running for their lives.

Norway is a small country. 29 people were murdered here in 2009. That's the entire country for the entire year. They were dealing with the first terrorist bomb in the capital at a time of the year when they had the least amount of available resources in addition to the shootings. How anyone can not be impressed that they managed so well under the circumstances I don't know. You should also understand that Norwegian police carry their guns in their cars; they are allowed to deploy them once permission is given. Not exactly quick draw, but they are not entirely unarmed when they go into situations like this.

You can believe that was the reason he managed to kill so many if you wish, I disagree.

As far as I'm aware the majority of the killings occurred very early in the incident when everyone was unaware of who he was and what he was up to. Afterwards, he was hunting them down and they had nowhere to escape to. Lives obviously could have been saved if the police had arrived earlier, but I would wager, given similar circumstances, that would not have happened in any other country either.

Thankfully, most of Western Europe realizes that arming everyone is not an answer to crime. The incredibly rare incidents like this here seem to be far outweighed by similar incidents in the US, where gun laws are a joke.

LOL - odd because my understanding of the population present at the included several dozen adults. the only one romanticizing things is you with this mental picture of 13 year olds and defensive firearms.

As for the rest, "normal" people stay calm every day and make rational decisions which result in accurate placement of their shots or avoidance of an exchange of fire entirely. Any other portrayal is "just silly.

Please feel free to provide statistics which support your original assertion. I know three people who have pulled their firearms under assault conditions in the last two years and none of them shot anyone other than their target. Still, maybe I only know abnormal people so you should look into proving your point over the anecdotal incidences I know of first-hand. I think you're in for a surprise.By the way, the romanticization is all yours. You're going off anti-gun propaganda that predicts bloody shootouts over parking spots, neighborhood altercations and cowboy reactions to robberies and assaults. Please provide factual information supporting these claims and present them in light of total number of events, fatalities and injuries. Simply, these are not the norm no matter what certain people or the media attempt to portray.

Yes, there were adults there, even one unarmed police officer that was doing some overtime as a security guard. You think that arming these people with pistols would have helped? Perhaps, if Anders were a raving lunatic acting without thought, but that is far from what he did.

I won't go digging up statistics for you Ed; you know as well as I that there is evidence supporting both sides of the US gun debate. All I know is that in Western Europe we generally don't have to fear for our lives from gun toting muggers or from well meaning pistol packing citizens. Kids here generally don't go and shoot themselves or their kid brothers with Daddy's gun either, because there isn't one.

Did you read this story? He IS your neighbor. I think you guys might be a bit more in fear of this than you were three days ago.

Adding more guns won't help because mad men will just get bigger and bigger guns. It will always be difficult to protect people from mad men like this and I would have thought there are many lessons showing this in the US.

I'm sorry but you will never convince me that giving guns to everyone will help anything at all except line the pockets of the arms manufacturers.