Russian Dolls Show on Lifetime TV

[Boethius]

I don't think so. She's probably heard her parents calling the country like that since she was a child, so she calls it the same way. There was a discussion of this matter on RWD once - Ukraine used to be a republic, and republics usually go with "the", so it's not a big deal really

It's generally been a non issue to Ukrainians, but has always been an issue among most of the diaspora.  The most devoted of them moved to serve in Kuchma's government after the collapse, and that's how it became an issue in Ukraine, as well.

Well, I think no, not by Russians, anyway. But that's a very delicate and a complicated issue. During the decades of soviet regime Jews were discriminated, so they did their best to seem Russians - and this is a habit which can't be given up easily, because their well-being depended on it. So they are used to calling themselves Russians, but in fact their lifestyle is usually a bit different from Russian one. Do you remember the proverb at the beginning of the first episode? In Russian it's a proverb about Jewish mothers 

Untrue.  Jews were discriminated against in the Tsarist Empire, as they were not allowed to live beyond the Pale of Settlement (except in very limited numbers).  They did comprise a large part of the merchant class in Ukraine, and owned many of its largest businesses.

The Bolshevik Party was comprised disproportionately, in relation to their population, of Jews.  In Ukraine, in particular, which had the largest Jewish population in the USSR, Jews were very predominant in most prominent positions which, of course, were under party control.   Khrushchev started a campaign to change this, but it died quietly shortly before he was ousted.  So, Jews remained, very disproportionately, in prominent positions up to the mid 1970's, when they were given the right to emigrate.  At that time, they started losing their positions, and all Jews had difficulty obtaining positions in higher learning or landing good jobs.  Brezhnev at the time said "The Jews are trying to take the place of the Germans in Russian society."  (The comparison was because Germans predominated the elites in Russian education/commerce in Tsarist times.)  The one and only survivor of this purge that I can think of was Primakov.

In addition to removing Jews from positions among the elites, even the "common folk" lost positions and the ability to study or get a normal job.  It is partly why so many left Ukraine, they often had no choice.

[possum]

The Bolshevik Party was comprised disproportionately, in relation to their population, of Jews. 

It makes sense because Nikolai II was the biggest Jew hater in Russian history.. They sure took their revenge on him. 

[Boethius]

Marxism has many similarities to Judaic values and ideals, particularly after the Messiah arrives.

PS - Many of those idealistic Jews, who believed the Bolsheviks would create "heaven on earth", perished in the first wave of Stalin's purges.

[Ranetka]

There is some confusion here regarding the concepts of nationality versus religion.

As I understand it, Jewish refers to a religion, not a nationality.

So saying that Jewish people living in Russia are not Russians would be akin to saying that Catholic (or put something  else here) people living in Russia are not Russians; yes?  For sake of discussion; lets assume that all persons we discuss in this regard were born and raised in Russia.

I would agree that Jewish people living in Russia may have different outlooks than Orthodox people living in Russia; but they are all Russians.

Being Jewish is both religion and ETHNICITY. The people in the show are Jewish Americans, not of Russian ethnicity and not of Russian nationality.
 
Jewish living in Russia are Russian citizens who are ethnically Jewish and therefore referred as such.

[Ranetka]

Being Jewish is both religion and ETHNICITY. The people in the show are Jewish Americans, not of Russian ethnicity and not of Russian nationality.
 
Jewish living in Russia are Russian citizens who are ethnically Jewish and therefore referred as such.

P.S. There are 100+ different ethnic groups in Russia, they are called whatever they are. In Russian language there are different words for Russian as an ethnicity and Russian as nationality so there are no confusion .

[Ade]

Actually, my wife (apparently) told me they were Jewish rather than Russian when we watched the show - for the life of me I didn't hear her so I guess I was distracted - anyway, she just explained this ethnicity vs nationality thing.

I think people in the West have difficulty getting our heads around this focus on ethnicity because it's so often the forerunner of discrimination.

Very interesting insight though! I learned something new today.

[Misha]

In this show people are Jewish and I just do not get it,why they called it Russian dolls? )

Let's see, they speak Russian, they go to banyas and they identify with a Russian culture. Makes much more sense to call them Russian to me. The same is true of many of my Jewish/Russian friends in Canada. I know one young woman who recently remarried: while her first marriage was in a synagogue in Israel, her second was in a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada and her mother tongue is Russian 

[Boethius]

But most ethnic Russians would not call them Russian.  I think that's the point of the Russians here.
 
The woman you know must've converted from Judaism to Christianity.  A non-Jew cannot marry in a synagogue, and in Israel, in particular, all marriages in synagogues are conducted according to Orthodox Jewish religious law, and a non Christian cannot marry in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

[Misha]

But most ethnic Russians would not call them Russian.  I think that's the point of the Russians here.

Some Russians would label someone Jewish simply because of they had a great-grandfather who was maybe Jewish, yet themselves do not consider themselves Jewish either by faith or by ethnicity.
 

The woman you know must've converted from Judaism to Christianity.  A non-Jew cannot marry in a synagogue, and in Israel, in particular, all marriages in synagogues are conducted according to Orthodox Jewish religious law, and a non Christian cannot marry in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

Yes, she converted at some point to Judaism, and then back to Orthodoxy. Many immigrated to Israel yet knew nothing about the Jewish faith and considered themselves Russian. If you were to disqualify all ethnic Russians because they had an ancestor at some point who was not an ethnic Russian, there wouldn't be many Russians left IMHO The same is true here, though other Russians will label them as Jewish, they likely see themselves as Russian, and personally I would not label them as Jewish if they do not want to identify themselves as Jewish.

[Boethius]

Some Russians would label someone Jewish simply because of they had a great-grandfather who was maybe Jewish, yet themselves do not consider themselves Jewish either by faith or by ethnicity.

Hmm, I'm not so certain of that.  But keep in mind, in the 1970's in the USSR, a lot of Jewish Russians would want those of mixed ethnicity to "decide" if they were "Russian" or "Jewish".
 

Yes, she converted at some point to Judaism, and then back to Orthodoxy. Many immigrated to Israel yet knew nothing about the Jewish faith and considered themselves Russian. If you were to disqualify all ethnic Russians because they had an ancestor at some point who was not an ethnic Russian, there wouldn't be
many Russians left IMHO

 
I don't disagree with that.
 

The same is true here, though other Russians will label them as Jewish, they likely see themselves as Russian, and personally I would not label them as Jewish if they do not want to identify themselves as Jewish.

I do disagree with this.  The participants of Russian Dolls are culturally Soviet Jewish, not Russian.  Plus, most of them originally are from Ukraine.  There are differences in these cultures.  Finally, those that were raised in the U.S. are American, not Russian. 

[Misha]

Hmm, I'm not so certain of that.  But keep in mind, in the 1970's in the USSR, a lot of Jewish Russians would want those of mixed ethnicity to "decide" if they were "Russian" or "Jewish".

Many decided they were Russian, some never considered themselves Jewish to begin with. I knew families where the mother was Jewish but she never practiced her faith and did not pass on her faith or anything else that could be considered culturally Jewish to her children. Should their children be labeled Jewish if they do not want to define themselves thus?
 

There are differences in these cultures.

What are some examples of these differences? 

Finally, those that were raised in the U.S. are American, not Russian.

Plenty of people who identify themselves as Ukrainians were raised in Canada along with their parents yet they still call themselves as Ukrainian. Should I disqualify their identity as well?

[acctBill]

I second that:)  Russia is totally about ethnicity , religion and culture and I do not think it is racist at all.It always surprises me that in the UK as well ,some people who had Indian parents, born in India and had Indian up bringing call themselves English , just because they were born in the UK, but their surrounding was almost purely Indian as they socialize with Indian community.Yet they might possess some  purely English features though they are  mostly Indian, nothing wrong with that, just they can not be called British.And they act like the Indian people would do,not like the British ones.

Jazzyclassy using your logic what is my daughter?  She was born in England and spent most of her 13 years there.  She's visited her relatives in Russia many times.  Speaks fluent Russian (no accent).  Speaks English with a London accent.  When visiting Moscow she blends in so well that the Russian parents want to know what English language school she attends. Is she British or Russian?  She considers herself British and thinks she would make a great spy, like a female James Bond. 

[Ade]

Jazzyclassy using your logic what is my daughter?  She was born in England and spent most of her 13 years there.  She's visited her relatives in Russia many times.  Speaks fluent Russian (no accent).  Speaks English with a London accent.  When visiting Moscow she blends in so well that the Russian parents want to know what English language school she attends. Is she British or Russian?  She considers herself British and thinks she would make a great spy, like a female James Bond. 

I asked my wife a similar question last night; what ethnicity does she consider herself. She is 50% Pomory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomors and 50% other Russian with a bit of Polish thrown in several generations ago on one grandparents side. She of course considers herself Russian by nationality and Russian ethnicity; I think she is quite proud to be one of the few remaining Pomory (6570 or so identified themselves as Pomors in the 2002 census) which is a subgroup of the Great Russian ethnicity.

I think we are both a little confused as to what label our kids will have. Perhaps we won't even bother mentioning ethnicity to them at all, call them Norwegians and be done with that.

[Nat]

I think people in the West have difficulty getting our heads around this focus on ethnicity because it's so often the forerunner of discrimination.

I've never understood why acknowledging of your own or somebody's else ethnicity/nationality is perceived as a discrimination in the West... One thing when you're say: "He is a Jew because I can tell it from what he looks like" - it's acknowledging. Another thing if you're saying: "I won't let my children play with his because he's a Jew" - that's pure discrimination and that's disgusting. For example, I have a lot of bloods mixed in me and I'm proud of all of them, and I can easily say I'm not 100% Russian or Ukrainian - will I discriminate myself by that? 

Some Russians would label someone Jewish simply because of they had a great-grandfather who was maybe Jewish, yet themselves do not consider themselves Jewish either by faith or by ethnicity.

True, but I wouldn't call that "labelling". Labelling is negative, this is neutral

Jazzyclassy using your logic what is my daughter?  She was born in England and spent most of her 13 years there.  She's visited her relatives in Russia many times.  Speaks fluent Russian (no accent).  Speaks English with a London accent.  When visiting Moscow she blends in so well that the Russian parents want to know what English language school she attends. Is she British or Russian?  She considers herself British and thinks she would make a great spy, like a female James Bond. 

The question was not to me, but to create a statistic of Russian opinions - you're daughter is half-Russian, half-British, and it doesn't really matter which language she speaks

[Ade]

I've never understood why acknowledging of your own or somebody's else ethnicity/nationality is perceived as a discrimination in the West... One thing when you're say: "He is a Jew because I can tell it from what he looks like" - it's acknowledging. Another thing if you're saying: "I won't let my children play with his because he's a Jew" - that's pure discrimination and that's disgusting. For example, I have a lot of bloods mixed in me and I'm proud of all of them, and I can easily say I'm not 100% Russian or Ukrainian - will I discriminate myself by that? 

Yes, I understand that categorising people by ethnicity is not always in order to discriminate. I know that our minds tend to have a need to find patterns and to give some structure on life and labels allow us to do that more easily. Still, there is a danger that focusing too much on ethnicity can and does have negative consequences not least of which is a tendency for negative ethnic stereotyping.

I guess, over the years we have been more sensitized to it in the West too because of the focus on racism and antisemitism. Still, my wife has told me a few stories about the times she worked with groups of Chechens (as a part of a Brussels funded NPO) and it seems that negative ethnic stereotyping is alive and well in Russia.

My take on it is that ethnicity really doesn't matter unless someone goes out of their way to make it matter. So your example of, "He is a Jew because I can tell it from what he looks like" is irrelevant because  I don't really care if he's a Jew to begin with and I don't think it should have any real bearing on the way I treat or view him - even if he has a bigger nose than me (which would be something to see I might add ). Of course, if that Jew dude happens to be a proponent of Orthodox Judaism, that does matter.

[Misha]

True, but I wouldn't call that "labelling". Labelling is negative, this is neutral

I am not sure about the neutral. Like it or not, people have their stereotypes. I don't quite see the need to call some people Jewish who clearly identify themselves as Russian and for all practical purposes have a culture that was shaped and formed by the Russian culture as Russian culture was understood during the Soviet Union.

[Nat]

I am not sure about the neutral. Like it or not, people have their stereotypes. I don't quite see the need to call some people Jewish who clearly identify themselves as Russian and for all practical purposes have a culture that was shaped and formed by the Russian culture as Russian culture was understood during the Soviet Union.

Well, it's the difference in mentality. It's the same as for example calling negros "Afro-americans" - a Russian person will never understand that, it sounds hypocritical for us, and if there wasn't for American movies, we'd never even suspect that something is wrong with our word Our negros never demanded to be called "Afro-russians", it would even sound weird in Russian. But in the USA it sounds offensive if we call them negros. So I guess it's just the matter which has absolutely different significance for both our countries As you see, most of Russian girls in this topic find it important that those women aren't Russians, but it's hard for Americans to understand why

[Misha]

As you see, most of Russian girls in this topic find it important that those women aren't Russians, but it's hard for Americans to understand why

Why is it important for you that these women aren't Russian? How would ethnic Russians raised in the United States living in Brighton Beach be any different?

[Nat]

Why is it important for you that these women aren't Russian? How would ethnic Russians raised in the United States living in Brighton Beach be any different?

They are not ethnic Russians! And they behave in a certain way! May be somebody else of Russians here will explain this to the crowd?

[Misha]

They are not ethnic Russians! And they behave in a certain way! May be somebody else of Russians here will explain this to the crowd?

How do you know? Does having a parent who was Jewish disqualify you? A grandparent? A great-grandparent? Where do you draw the ethnic line?

[Ranetka]

How do you know? Does having a parent who was Jewish disqualify you? A grandparent? A great-grandparent? Where do you draw the ethnic line?

You are right in a way that the ethnicity is often self-determined.
 
With regards to Jewish Russians I have met quite a few and ALL of them considered themselves Jews. Within our common post-Soviet mentality jews are a very distinct group characterised by certain attitude to rasing children, some traditional food and some customs. And of course facial features and different surnames.
 
(I do hope noone here think I am a racist because Jews as a rule have different looks to Slovenic?)
 
 

[Misha]

With regards to Jewish Russians I have met quite a few and ALL of them considered themselves Jews.

Sure, someone who identifies themselves as a Russian Jew will consider themselves Jewish.

Within our common post-Soviet mentality jews are a very distinct group characterised by certain attitude to rasing children, some traditional food and some customs. And of course facial features and different surnames.

Sure, when there are some customs, then perhaps an argument could be made. However, when it comes basing Jewishness on facial features and surnames, at that point it is clearly entering into anti-semitic territory IMHO, and Russia does certainly have a history of anti-semitism....
 
(I do hope noone here think I am a racist because Jews as a rule have different looks to Slovenic?)

[Nat]

Sure, when there are some customs, then perhaps an argument could be made.

There are some customs!!! If there weren't, why would anybody even bring up that topic?!

[Ranetka]

Sure, someone who identifies themselves as a Russian Jew will consider themselves Jewish.



Sure, when there are some customs, then perhaps an argument could be made. However, when it comes basing Jewishness on facial features and surnames, at that point it is clearly entering into anti-semitic territory IMHO, and Russia does certainly have a history of anti-semitism....
 
(I do hope noone here think I am a racist because Jews as a rule have different looks to Slovenic?)

Misha,
 
Misha it's not my fault Jewish surnames differ from Russian and there is Semitic (or is it middle eastern?) facial type....
 
I am recognised as Russian here due to my name and face, no British passport will ever make me English...

[Ranetka]

Sure, when there are some customs, then perhaps an argument could be made. However, when it comes basing Jewishness on facial features and surnames, at that point it is clearly entering into anti-semitic territory IMHO, and Russia does certainly have a history of anti-semitism....
 

As I feared. Oh well, PC in action.