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Author Topic: Putin for President  (Read 1145 times)

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Offline SteveOR

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Putin for President
« on: September 24, 2011, 09:52:46 AM »
 
He's back.  Or will be soon.
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/24/us-russia-idUSTRE78N0RH20110924
 
So what do you think?  Good for Russia?  Bad for Russia?  Or more of the same?
 
 

Offline possum

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2011, 10:27:29 AM »

He's back.  Or will be soon.
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/24/us-russia-idUSTRE78N0RH20110924
 
So what do you think?  Good for Russia?  Bad for Russia?  Or more of the same?

He's going to be around for at least another 20 years, so I better keep my mouth shut from now on.. I don't want to end up in prison for "defamation". :-X
Why get a ball and chain when you can get the milk for free?

Offline ECOCKS

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2011, 10:57:19 AM »
Putin, Yanukovich, Lukashenko and the vast majority of politicians in the FSU are in this for themselves, not the good of their people nor the good of their country.
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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2011, 10:57:19 AM »

Offline Ade

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2011, 01:47:19 PM »
Putin, Yanukovich, Lukashenko and the vast majority of politicians in the FSU are in this for themselves, not the good of their people nor the good of their country.
Yes, but which country is this this any different? I really hope you aren't going to claim that US politicians are? The only thing that keeps most of them from being as corrupt is some small semblance of accountability and consequences - I say most as some couldn't keep their hand out of the cookie jar even if...  :rolleyes2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States

Online BillyB

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2011, 02:27:25 PM »
Yes, but which country is this this any different? I really hope you aren't going to claim that US politicians are? The only thing that keeps most of them from being as corrupt is some small semblance of accountability and consequences - I say most as some couldn't keep their hand out of the cookie jar even if...  :rolleyes2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States


Big difference between what happens in America compared to what happens in Russia. If our politicians are bad or do a bad job, we can vote them out or other politicians will pressure them out prematurely as in the case of Anthony Wiener who posted some unpleasant photos on Facebook. Not a crime but showed his poor character.

 
What is happening in Russia is worse than a scandal. It is politicians guaranteeing themselves job security. When will it stop? Until it is law that a person can be dictactor for life? When politicians have job security, they are less likely to perform since there are reduced consequences.

 
Ade, I know you are liberal and left leaning. Could you imagine a President in your country that thinks like Bush? What would you think if he tried to change the law to give himself more job security? You would be outraged yet in this thread you are not outraged at what Putin and company is doing. It doesn't matter who's changing the law whether they are left or right, it's all wrong.

 
The people of Russia are the ones who will suffer. This new law will continue to affect them long after Putin is gone. Their right to vote politicians out of power has been diminished more than it already is. Some people don't realize how valuable freedom is until they lose it. I suspect most Russians won't resist and will accept what's coming to them.
 
 
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline ECOCKS

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2011, 02:42:40 PM »
Yes, but which country is this this any different? I really hope you aren't going to claim that US politicians are? The only thing that keeps most of them from being as corrupt is some small semblance of accountability and consequences - I say most as some couldn't keep their hand out of the cookie jar even if...  :rolleyes2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States

What a predictably boring response.

Peddle your attempts to position a strawman argument somewhere else.
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Offline ECOCKS

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2011, 02:51:12 PM »
My belief is that they are primarily concerned with lining the pockets of themselves and their cronies. If there is any question regarding their behavior it is that they seem to become so entranced by the power of their position despite having built up obscene amounts of money. Perhaps the "work" involved is so inconsequential hat they figure they might as well stick around and run up the score some more.




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Offline acctBill

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2011, 03:21:01 PM »
It's certainly no surprise that Putin will be running in 2012.  He'll be 60 in 2012 so he should be able to do one more term maybe 2 even with the Presidential terms extended to 6 years.

Offline SteveOR

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2011, 06:13:32 PM »
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/25/us-russia-stagnation-idUSTRE78O0W020110925
 
"Gorbachev, the only other man alive to have held the top job in the Kremlin, referred to this feeling last week and said Russia faced turmoil unless its leaders embraced change.  "It is the very absence of change which threatens to provoke instability and put the future of the country in question," said Gorbachev, 80, whose reforms culminated in the Soviet Union's fall.  He said Russia was returning to the era of Leonid Brezhnev, whose 1964-1982 rule is widely portrayed as an era of stagnation when strong oil sales masked economic decline."
 
Putin will have 12 years (assuming re-election of course) to plot how to get another 12 or more years in power.  He'll probably die in office from a cold or something.  Isn't that how Brezhnev's and Andropov's reigns officially ended?
 
 

Online JohnDearGreen

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2011, 07:28:18 PM »
In the year 2030:
The things that I will go to. The distance in your eyes...

Offline ECOCKS

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2011, 01:58:09 PM »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/25/us-russia-stagnation-idUSTRE78O0W020110925
 
"....He said Russia was returning to the era of Leonid Brezhnev, whose 1964-1982 rule is widely portrayed as an era of stagnation when strong oil sales masked economic decline."


People try to pretend that the FSU has been less touched by the world economic situation but those who have walked around in the cities, meeting and talking to real people, know the reality of their employment and real income situation. Talk to a pensioner trying to support themselves o $95/month or a steel mill worker struggling to understand why the FSU steel industry is non-competitive.

Yes, the FSU has significant energy reserves and there are wondrous proclamations as to the prosperity of their industries, yet when I did the math, those oil revenues seemed a bit lite to support a population of 140 million across those thousands of miles of countryside. The FDI seems to mostly be concerned with buying the aging industrial plants and potential reserves rather than creating new wealth from those existing, worn out facilities.

As for raising the pay and equipment resources of the military I recall a few years ago reading an analysis (which of course I cannot find now) that despite the "prosperity" brought on by $150/barrel oil.  The estimate was that the RF would have difficulty fielding 4 full-strength divisions for more than a 3-4 month period of combat operations. Announcing a program of rebuilding the Russian Navy doesn't seem to have progressed very far even though the roads, bridges and institutions of the FSU continue to deteriorate, unemployment remains high and the population decreasing due to negative net migration patterns.

A wonderful parable concerned a King, approached by a cabinet minister who asked why so much was spent on the military and fortresses rather than alleviating the miserable living and economic conditions of the population. The King's response was that when the revolution came, he would be ready.

Putin knows it's a good thing to be King....
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 02:00:52 PM by ECOCKS »
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Offline Steamer

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2011, 04:12:56 PM »
My boy Vlad is OK. He is more of a patriot than anyone since Andropov.  Russia needs a man with a plan and he is it.
Life ain't nothing but a poker game
And no two hands are quite the same
But I've never seen a winner that didn't bet
Commander Cody

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 11:21:02 PM »
It is easy, when first hand experience is limited, to make a one or two sentence judgment, either pro or con. I worked around the Yeltsin folks, did the same with Putin's and have enjoyed and will miss the Medvedev years. If I can keep my flap shut at the appropriate times I'll do the cycle again. I plan on taking part in the 75th anniversary Victory Day celebration in Moscow (9 years) and hope that becomes remains a reality.

The only times when I either felt danger or when danger was implied, was in an administration not associated with either Yeltsin or Medvedev. However in full disclosure, apparently I was either very brave or naive during the Yeltsin years because when looking at the numbers I should have been shaking in my boots.

With journalists dying like flies during the years of Leonid Kuchma (and his PM the current Prez) in Ukraine, one becomes appreciative of the fact that you won't be struck with the same unexpected and sudden nudge that sends associates tumbling in front of a fast moving train. Those same fears, whether or not justified, accompanied many journalists the first Putin period starting in his 2nd year of office.

Most of my numbers come from a combination of personally collected obits and from the Centre for the Protection of Journalists. During the Yeltsin years of 1991 to 1999, the number of journalists (both local and Western) murdered was 67. The number killed in mysterious but undetermined circumstances was far greater, 93. In fairness, some of those were killed by crossfire while covering news during the violent post Soviet times and in Chechnya.

In the Putin years there was a spike at first before leveling off. The number of journalists murdered under Putin was 87 and the number of undetermined but mysterious deaths of journalists stood at 96 at the end of 2007.  An additional 25 simply "went missing" during the Putin years.

In the Medvedev years those numbers dropped sharply, averaging just 6 per year murdered according to CPJ estimates. Medvedev was also the first leader to actively press for full investigation and prosecution of those killings. In prior administrations the killing of journalists was almost like some sort of sport.

The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) estimates that over 300 journalists have died of unnatural causes in Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union, and most of those prior to 2008 (pre-Medvedev years). 246 came before the death of Anna Politkovskaya; she was number 247 in 2006. Her trial didn't even begin until late 2009, almost 2 years after Putin had left office and only because of intense international pressure.

The highest single year rate of journalist murders under Yeltsin was in 1995 with 38 killed and 0 trials.

The highest single rate under Putin was 2002 with 43 killed and 3 trials.

Some of the numbers are incomplete but under Medvedev almost half of journalist murders have gone to trial the same year (or within a 12 month period).

In fairness, Reporters Without Borders (based in Paris) report about 1/2 that many deaths in a 10 year period but they lack statistics on Russian journalists and often report only on foreign press murders. Even so, either 300+ or 150+ are big numbers for a modern and civilized country. In-country organizations go with the higher numbers and some keep rosters to verify their findings.


 Interesting reading: http://www.ifex.org/russia/2009/06/23/ifj_partial_justice_report.pdf


I feel okay writing about this in September 2011. My attitude may be adjusted as we draw closer to 7 May 2012.

In the past few years I've longed to write and broadcast more on the culture and people of Russia and less of politics. Reality however has somehow intruded and politics seems to take centre stage as that is what news outlets demand.

I began work this year on a book about the towers along the Kremlin wall. There are 20 of them; 18 have names and 2 are called the "first unnamed tower" and the "second unnamed tower." The Kremlin towers are old and beautiful! The youngest two are the Tsarskaya Tower (built in 1680) and the Petrovskaya Tower (built in 1612). Most of the others were built in the 1400s. The most recognizable tower is the Spasskaya (Saviour Tower), named for an icon inside the tower and the Spasskaya is the tower you see in photos and on TV on New Year's Eve with the famous clocks. It is close to Saint Basil's Cathedral (which isn't the correct name of the Cathedral, btw).

This summer I began a new series of photographs and was dismayed to see the decay and falling brick. I plan to take a second/winter set of photographs this January of each tower. This August I was accompanied by a young lady from the Kremlin Regiment (palace guards) while taking photos and she was amazed at not only what I could explain to her about each tower, but like myself was dismayed to see the decay.

5 towers have those famous red stars. Those weren't there until after the Communist revolution and were erected to replace the two-sided eagle emblems representing the Tsars. A portion of the project will be to document that part of the story as well.

The original Kremlin wall was white stone and part of it is still there--the red brick wall was built on top of the original foundation. Glorious! In case you didn't know, "Red Square" is dark grey and has never been red. The words for "red" and "beautiful" come from the same root so Red Square is Красная площадь, and historically understood as "Beautiful Plaza." A native Muscovite would quickly point that out if you didn't already know. In prior generations Red Square wasn't an open area; it was dirt and filled with beautiful old churches that the Soviets destroyed to make room for military parades on what is now Red Square. Which isn't really "square" either but that doesn't matter to Russians as they call it a "plaza."

Hopefully in 18 to 24 months you can obtain the book!  :)

We should always remember fallen heros, including those journalists who have paid a price for speaking the truth. I plan to dedicate this book to the memories of these fallen heros and list their names on the inside covers much like the names of the fallen war heros from 1812 are memorialized on the walls of Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Saviour.

They represent that white stone foundation on which the future bricks of Russian democracy will be laid.

They are truly the "21st" tower.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:49:01 AM by mendeleyev »
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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 11:21:02 PM »

Offline ECOCKS

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 12:08:16 AM »
Since so many always want to point out that things in Russia aren't all that different than in the West, maybe you can go ahead and look into the number of murdered and missing journalists within the US, Canada, the UK and EU member countries to illustrate how this isn't that big a deal and the anti-Russian bigots have no sense of perspective?

We in the West should not be so quick to criticize this situation since surely there have been dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of murdered and missing journalists in our countries for equivalent periods. Right?




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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 12:13:06 AM »
Ed,  :)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 12:25:30 AM by mendeleyev »
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Offline SteveOR

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2011, 01:16:24 PM »
We in the West should not be so quick to criticize this situation since surely there have been dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of murdered and missing journalists in our countries for equivalent periods. Right?

Are you sure about that?  I vaguely remember an old mafia quote that went something like this:  "Never kill a policeman or a reporter".  The reason for this was that neither the police nor the media would ever stop until the murderer was found.  In other words it brought a lot of unwanted attention to the mafia "business".
 
Regardless or the reason or the person who murdered a journalist the rest of the Western media wouldn't stop until the murderer was identified and found.
 
In Russia it appears that it is open season on journalists and this may be one of the reasons why a dictatorship is alllowed to form and/or continue.  If you fear for your life just how far will you be willing to dig into the dirty business of a country's politics. . .
 
 

Offline ECOCKS

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2011, 02:23:47 PM »
Steve,

Sarcasm buddy.

For all those who paint such an idyllic picture of life under the Putin regime.


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Offline clancyhound

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Re: Putin for President
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2011, 03:56:19 PM »
все или ничего, pretty much sums up Russian Politics for me.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 03:57:55 PM by clancyhound »

 

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