women with adult children

[Patagonie]

You're wrong - AGAIN.

Ade's wife is not the only one who doesn't scheme money out of men...

Misha has said the same about his wife... certainly my wife refused money from me until she came here - with the exception of me buying things she wasn't aware of until she got them (Air tickets to Moscow, etc).



The following message is for new men DP, not you... 

It's important new men searching realise there are women in FSU who will scheme and manipulate to get money early on in a "relationship"...  sometimes even before meeting.

There are other women who have pride and integrity and will refuse to be "sponsored".

When together the man should pay for everything of course,  but sending financial support for a woman prior to marriage has often ended badly according to the posts in here over many years.

Typically women who are more reliant on your money are less reliable as your partner.

It's your choice - just don't complain after you realise you are getting scammed.

The best warming of this topic. Kuna thank you to remind us what is the normality rather than an OP who has showed not a lot of respect and a very atypical opinion disproportionated with the common FSU (Ukrainian) persons with whom i have spent time.

[Misha]

Also, regular guys, those working for corporate america, they only have a total of 4-6 weeks vacation every year, so lets say, first trip - 2-3 weeks face time (In my case 10 days) and no unlimited resources to stay for a long time and make multiple trips . After the first trip you either file for a visa or you dont.

If they only have a few weeks of vacation time, they should clearly be expecting a much long period of time from meeting to marriage IMHO.

But wouldnt you want to learn things like "I will have to send money to my mom" as early as you can? I mean, why waste time if you dont agree on basics?[/size]

Sure, you want to learn of any and all deal-breakers ASAP. However, I can't see these conversations happening in the first few dates or perhaps even the first week. However, if I was dating, and a woman was just a bit too pushy when it came to money and if she had unrealistic expectations/demands after a first trip, then I would certainly be taking a very long and hard look at our relationship

[Donna_Pedro]

If they only have a few weeks of vacation time, they should clearly be expecting a much long period of time from meeting to marriage IMHO.

Not at all the case in reality. Neither part wants a 3-5 years of long-distance relationship and costly multiple trips. In my case face time in two trips was 15 days.

Sure, you want to learn of any and all deal-breakers ASAP. However, I can't see these conversations happening in the first few dates or perhaps even the first week.

lets get clear on the terms here. What do you mean by "dates"? we are talking a long-distant relationship here - so there are no dates per se, but e-mails, phone calls, etc.  Why spend say 3-4-5 months talking to a girl just to learn that you are not comparable in basics? Why waste time and money?  I would say this should be one of the first important questions discussed. A friend of mine was dating (long-distantly) a guy only to learn his salary is just $50K, the same amount in debts and nothing to show for them. I suggested that she discussed these issues before his trip, but she thought he  would not "understand". So as a result - both wasted time and the man also wasted money.

[Misha]

[size=78%]In my case face time in two trips was 15 days. [/size]

Too often, such short courtships end in disaster.

lets get clear on the terms here. What do you mean by "dates"? we are talking a long-distant relationship here - so there are no dates per se, but e-mails, phone calls, etc.  Why spend say 3-4-5 months talking to a girl just to learn that you are not comparable in basics?

Personally, I would not recommend talking 3-4-5 months before meeting. Best to meet, see if there is some "chemistry" and if there is to continue the conversation online until the 2nd trip.

[Donna_Pedro]

certainly my wife refused money from me until she came here - with the exception of me buying things she wasn't aware of until she got them (Air tickets to Moscow, etc).

Well, I got me a better deal.   And it works. Whatever you may  say about it  - it does work.This is a fact. You might think  women like me should not get rewarded with good, generous and loving husbands, but this is not a fairy tale where poor Cinderellas win. This is real life. And in real life girls like me get better deals and live happily ever after.

[ML]

As someone mentioned upstream . . . this is a good thread for newbies (male and female) to read to understand some about the thought process of those of the opposite gender involved in this endeavor.

[Misha]

And in real life girls like me get better deals and live happily ever after.

Better is always subjective of course. I am just happy that I had other options 

[Donna_Pedro]

Too often, such short courtships end in disaster.

long courtships end in disaster as often as short ones.  But the question still remains - when? My advice is to get all important issues out of the way before you meet. Make a (mental) list of all deal breakers and discuss them before you made a trip. This includes (but not limited to) money issues. This includes if you expect your wife to work.  This includes if she expects herself to work. You should be prepared to answer questions about your financial situation.  For your own good, btw.  All these things should be set before the trip so you could spend your face time together  "untarnished" by material conversations. I believe men have created a "bad aura" around money talks, so women are reluctant to talk about it at all and even afraid to accept money when it is offered sincerely. 

[civi68]

Some people asked about offering clarifications. First, sending a few hundred dollars would not have cut it. She was clear that she expected more. As for the visa, she asked how the visa worked and I answered. My response was that a fiancee visa is a serious commitment so we would need to know each other better and be sure we want to pursue it. At no time, was there any rush to start a visa. Neither of us initiated any paperwork. I emphasized to her that this was a long process. Never did either of us say, "I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you." Would a visa have been decided after the 2nd trip? Maybe.
   Were we interested in each other? Yes. Did we talk about seeing each other again and developing a relationship? Yes. Did I know her well enough to marry her or send her thousands of dollars? No. Did I believe there was a possibility over the next 12 months that the relationship would not work out either because she changed her mind or didn't want to leave her family/friends? Yes. Were there unresolved questions about her financial expectations/conditions before her mother's situation? Yes. Would I have helped out her mother if we were happily married in the US? Yes.
   Any doubts I have about my decision have been laid to rest after seeing the debate on here as well as my friends' advice. This issue is not about how much you are willing to do for someone you love, but how well you know a person before you ask for large sums of money and how well do you know someone before you send this kind of money? Was it possible that she was a great woman that would have married me and been loyal? Maybe. Was it also possible that she would not have been this kind of woman? Maybe. Were the financial expectations before and after the mother's illness a red/yellow flag based upon how long we have known each other? Yes.

[Vaughn]

Nice summary, civi.
 
I was not surprised, though, that some perceived you as calculating, and expecting a guaranteed return on your investment of time & treasure.

[Donna_Pedro]

First, sending a few hundred dollars would not have cut it. She was clear that she expected more.

Could you please clarify it a little further. What do you mean - She was clear that she expected more?  Have  you have actually offered a  girl  to send her $XX  and she said "I dont want your $XX, I want the full amount" ?? Because if this is the case ( you have OFFERED  and  neglected to mention it before)  and she has refused - I would be the first person to say: you need to stop your relationship to this girl.

[Misha]

[size=78%]This includes (but not limited to) money issues. This includes if you expect your wife to work.  This includes if she expects herself to work. You should be prepared to answer questions about your financial situation.  For your own good, btw.  [/size]

Sure, good to discuss, but if a woman's main interests seem to focus solely on the financial, that would be a real turnoff.

All these things should be set before the trip so you could spend your face time together  "untarnished" by material conversations. I believe men have created a "bad aura" around money talks, so women are reluctant to talk about it at all and even afraid to accept money when it is offered sincerely.

The problem is less talking about it, but expecting that a man will send large sums of money when the relationship is still in its infancy.

[Misha]

Some people asked about offering clarifications. First, sending a few hundred dollars would not have cut it. She was clear that she expected more.

Was this for the operation?

[Daveman]

As someone mentioned upstream . . . this is a good thread for newbies (male and female) to read to understand some about the thought process of those of the opposite gender involved in this endeavor.

Yep, it is that too... 

[TheTraveler]

I have been successfully married to an AM at least 5 times longer than you [Ade]. Again - these are facts, not speculations.  Let me repeat -  you are just a "sad little king of a sad little hill, with delusions of standing. (c)

I am (and I'm sure everyone here is) glad to hear that you've been married to your latest husband for 10 years... but perhaps you should slow down on nominating yourself to the Marriage Hall of Fame just yet.

[TheTraveler]

...But I found the unrealistic money issues to be normal with most of these women...

I saw that a few times, but yours was not my general experience.  Quite the opposite, really.
 
The few who seemed to be more interested in money or the American lifestyle... I didn't think it was too hard to smoke them out pretty quickly and dump them.
 

[OlgaH]

Better is always subjective of course. I am just happy that I had other options 

Misha, while you and I probably are on the same page there are people whose happiness is based on an amount of money and gifts they can get from the human relations. If they are happy let them be happy. To each his own...  happiness    Marriage of convenience is an old concept also based on love in this World: "He/she got married because of big love... love to the money"     

[Donna_Pedro]

If they are happy let them be happy. To each his own...  happiness    Marriage of convenience is an old concept also based on love in this World: "He/she got married because of big love... love to the mon

You are such  a little ray of sunshine! You gave hope (of happiness)  to those who had none.

[Misha]

Misha, while you and I probably are on the same page there are people whose happiness is based on an amount of money and gifts they can get from the human relations. If they are happy let them be happy. To each his own...  happiness    Marriage of convenience is an old concept also based on love in this World: "He/she got married because of big love... love to the money" 

I agree, to each their own. I won't discount another's happiness, however achieved, but I will disagree if they try to argue that all must achieve it solely as they did 

[OlgaH]

You are such  a little ray of sunshine! You gave hope (of happiness)  to those who had none.

Unfortunately or not but I'm not so little and my ray of sunshine doesn't keep my flowers warm outside so my husband had to bring some of them inside  but at least I'm glad somebody gets some kind of hope 

[Gator]

Moon Goddess quoted an insightful passage about different paths in life.

The topic subject is "Women with Adult Children."  Many such FSUW went through some difficult times in the turmoil of the1990s, especially if the father had died, abandoned the family, etc.  Unless you walked in their shoes you can not fully appreciate the ordeal.   

Essentially every RW I dated was in that category save a few who elected not to have children.   I know that many here in this debate dated/married women who were perhaps just young children in those days.  Not the same path, especially if you have no children of your own.

The turmoil of the 1990s was not the Siege of Leningrad for single mamas, yet it left an impression.  A good-hearted RW  was still good-hearted.  They now attached more importance  to security, something us Westerners  take for granted.  To most RW, money was not a surrogate for security, just an indicator.  How the man spent his money revealed much about his dependability for the long term.

I am a man with fine tastes and I appreciate women who have cultivated their tastes to appreciate life's better offerings.  I am attracted to women who enjoyed such and were not miserly frugal.  Yet they still sew some clothes, know how to apply cosmetics, can get more than one meal out of a chicken, love adventurous travel to the point of sometimes not having flush toilets, possess  a good eye and plenty of street smarts, and take care of their children and me.  They are perfect for me.

Some of  you other men in this debate might want a different type of woman.  That is your choice.  Let us not, however, disparage women just because they are different from your ideals.

[Gator]

Surprise-surprise, I'm with Ade again!

So you and Ade are a team.  Congratulations!   

Ade will grow into a miserable old man.  Is that you?

He never has anything positive to say, only looks for opportunities to express his idealistic contempt or proclaim his wife is superior or castigate Americans. 

He talks about women with adult children  yet has no children of his own.  We all know the various reasons why men don't want children, and none are good IMO.

He has streaks of intelligence in his gift for writing, yet how smart is he?   Many months ago he was on his periodic "Europe is superior and America inferior" trip.  I reminded him that Europe faced a larger economic crisis than America.  He laughed it off, conceding only Greece. How many of his fellow Europeans are laughing today as the EU deleverages.  Too bad he did not take the opportunity to adjust his portfolio away from EU-denominated investments.

It is difficult to see past one's nose if it is pointed upwards.

[OlgaH]

Some of  you other men in this debate might want a different type of woman.  That is your choice.  Let us not, however, disparage women just because they are different from your ideals.

Yes, Gator, there was a lot of desperation in 1990s, as actually in any time and in any country. Some women will live with their alcoholic and abusive husbands being afraid to lose at least some sort of provider. Some women will do anything to get out of desperate situation. For some women pro-dating, scamming,  wringing  at least something  from somebody, "making a good deal" is just a life style, their outlook on life.   

[Gator]

 
Gator, it seems that between the three of you (your Cossack, Her daughter, and You), YOU are the only "incredibly naive" one   

Unlike many other posters, I am far from perfect.  However, my values are my values.  If you do not like them, too bad for you.

And I'm with Ranetka here - the Cossack RW sure can't judge civi's woman as "bad RW" ... 

You did not read the caveat that went with that, did you.  To repeat, only Civi knows the context and tone of the discussions about money.  Besides, it is Civi's decision, his life.

.....while she failed to teach her own daughter how to be a "good one" .

The daughter is indeed a good girl.  I wager $1000 that she has had less sex than you at age 23, assuming you are typical.  And another $1000 that she has turned down more offers from worthy men than you ever had.



Your comment about a "good girl" reminds me of the bitter babushkas who would sit on benches outside apartments, spit sunflower seeds and make spiteful comments to RW dating a foreigner.  I can envision you now in your ratty clothes and rolled down stockings.  Tell me please that is not you.  I had you a higher pedestal. 

[OlgaH]

Gator, in Russia "good girls" and "bad girls" are very well aware of a Russian folk saying "кто девушку поит, тот её и танцует"