women with adult children

[Donna_Pedro]

. For some women pro-dating, scamming,  wringing  at least something  from somebody, "making a good deal" is just a life style, their outlook on life. 

Ask any russian  (Ukrainian) woman  if her material situation has improved with relocation to the west and 99% will say "yes".  So a "good deal"  for majority of rw pretty much goes together with marriage to a western men, even if he is not very rich by local standards. But some women just choose to ignore this "shameful fact" and keep pretending that their intentions were always  pure love. Its interesting, how all of us - both those looking for good deals and those looking for pure love - "accidently" have posted their profiles on websites  designed especially to  hook up girls from FSU and men from rich western countries.  Curious ways this pure love chooses, dont you think? 

[OlgaH]

Ask any russian  (Ukrainian) woman  if her material situation has improved with relocation to the west and 99% will say "yes".  So a "good deal"  for majority of rw pretty much goes together with marriage to a western men, even if he is not very rich by local standards.

There are different kind of women on the dating websites. "Everybody is looking for something." If 99% would say "yes" regarding their life after marriage abroad there would not be so much sad stories on the Russian forums.    But I would agree that some women out of desperation or to much calculation can not "make a deal"... neither on money nor on love. Their brains just freeze because of too much excitement 

[Donna_Pedro]

Gator, in Russia "good girls" and "bad girls" are very well aware of a Russian folk saying "кто девушку поит, тот её и танцует"   

my mom has produced a slightly different version - Кто девушку ужинает, тот ее и танцует. It was actual back in after the second world war times,  when people were hungry, and mommies who grew up in those times taught it to their daughters. Really, its all about how a woman sees herself. Back when this stupid phrase was popular women were different, they felt about themselves differently. It was a men's world.  A new generation of women - worldly, self standing and confident, capable of earning money dont give a sht what men think they ought to have after they had paid for dinner. Its a new type of mentality, if you please.

[OlgaH]

my mom has produced a slightly different version - Кто девушку ужинает, тот ее и танцует.

It is to Gator's post about "fine fur coat, diamond bracelet, etc" and "she will occasionally go to dinner with him" 

It was actual back in after the second world war times,  when people were hungry, and mommies who grew up in those times taught it to their daughters. Really, its all about how a woman sees herself. Back when this stupid phrase was popular women were different, they felt about themselves differently. It was a men's world.  A new generation of women - worldly, self standing and confident, capable of earning money dont give a sht what men think they ought to have after they had paid for dinner. Its a new type of mentality, if you please.

Absolutely agree.  But still not all women fit into this category. 

[Ade]

So you and Ade are a team.  Congratulations!   

Yes, isn't she great?

Ade will grow into a miserable old man.  Is that you?

  Really? lol. Is that how you see it? Damn, it is really no wonder that you can't see a "nice" gold-digging pro-dater right before your very eyes, described by your own words and living under your own roof. Given your blinding lack of insight, it explains a lot about your 3 failed marriages too.

I'm curious, do you think that perhaps "Cossack" woman's daughter's desire to have an American education has anything to do with Cossack woman's rekindled interest in you? Are you so desperate for companionship that you'll swap a daughter's education for a Russian lover? Nothing wrong with that according to Donna Pedro, it's just bartering isn't it, and as long as you're all happy, life is good, right? 

[OlgaH]

... as long as you're all happy, life is good, right? 

Ade, don't yank the people's chains. Live and let others to live and be happy and hopeful.  Be a ray of sunshine 

[Ade]

Ade, don't yank the people's chains. Live and let others to live and be happy and hopeful.  Be a ray of sunshine 

I guess all my sunshine is so focused on my wife and our life together I have little to spare for silly old goats on internet forums. 

[OlgaH]

Ade, everybody needs love and hope (no matter what their love and hope is) and sunshine (share yours a little bit  )

We are in total relaxation... close your eyes and listen the rustling leaves (or dollars), feel the softness of the young green grass (or softness of the finest fur coat), look at the World's reflection in the sparkling dews (or in the diamonds... what ever makes you happy)... Just relax and live

 
 

[Admin]

The tone of exchange is increasingly UNcivil. All the participants should either; (a) ratchet down the piety a notch or two (or more, as needed for some), and/or (b) insure you are making a genuine contribution before posting (if everyone did this there would be massively less bickering), and/or (c) take things a bit less seriously - after all, it is only an internet forum.

- Dan

[jeff9556]

The tone of exchange is increasingly UNcivil. All the participants should either; (a) ratchet down the piety a notch or two (or more, as needed for some), and/or (b) insure you are making a genuine contribution before posting (if everyone did this there would be massively less bickering), and/or (c) take things a bit less seriously - after all, it is only an internet forum.

- Dan

so a little less  because most are  So please for our sakes 

[Patagonie]

Not at all the case in reality. Neither part wants a 3-5 years of long-distance relationship and costly multiple trips. In my case face time in two trips was 15 days.


lets get clear on the terms here. What do you mean by "dates"? we are talking a long-distant relationship here - so there are no dates per se, but e-mails, phone calls, etc.  Why spend say 3-4-5 months talking to a girl just to learn that you are not comparable in basics? Why waste time and money?  I would say this should be one of the first important questions discussed. A friend of mine was dating (long-distantly) a guy only to learn his salary is just $50K, the same amount in debts and nothing to show for them. I suggested that she discussed these issues before his trip, but she thought he  would not "understand". So as a result - both wasted time and the man also wasted money.

Dear women who visit this site and try to understand who are those strangers who come to see you THIS is exactly the type of post you need to throw to the toilets.
"A friend of mine was dating (long-distantly) a guy only to learn his salary is just $50K, the same amount in debts and nothing to show for them. I suggested that she discussed these issues before his trip, but she thought he  would not "understand". So as a result - both wasted time and the man also wasted money." How the expectations totally out of the reality have dismissed a valuable guy. How the stupidity of people who are flying through the clouds and never land on the earth is a cause of crash.
A guy who is earning 50k $ with 50k of debt is CAN BE A CATCH. 50k of debt is absolutely NOTHING in west. Yes his income (worth, brutto ?) is not high but he has almost no debt. If you like him, if his wage is steady, if there are no reds flags and is good hearted, go to get married.

It's why i recommend to not disclose numerals because FSU girls don't have any  (you have an pure example through this post) clues about the reality of how it works. I go further and explain. In FSU you have rarely debt or just with your family or friends, you try to not use banks, crazy interest rates. So this the traditionnal mistake of FSU women si to come back at home and call her friend and say "I have met John, how a fantastic boy, do you know that he has superb house in Munchen, and also an other house in the countryside, he shows me the photo of is Q5, i want to focus on this man".
It can be a total BS : The Q5 owns to the company, the countryside house is property of his father, and he can be the owner of his house, yes true but he needs to get back 500 000$ to finish the mortgage. A lot of people have  (more than 50 % easily) big mortgage in Europe and US to buy real estate because it's very expansive. But be an owner in this case mean nothing. So this guy with 50k $ of debt is, in particular in the US society low or very low indebted.

So newbies girls i can say you that if you chase only more than 10k$/month with no debt, wanting to break the normal mariage procedure for a common one (in Europe) or with no prenup in US, and a guy who also has many properties or assets, i think your chances are very low to success. fortuned guys and very high fortuned guys are rare, already largely hitted by local womens and you will meet them by chance, in general they will meet top model of 22-25 like RW and are not especially in hurry to go in a common mariage.

So D__P i advice you to avoid to advice yours friends, if you continue to have such false sense of the reality and shut your mouth.

[jeff9556]

In Scandinavia, and I assume some other European countries, people seldom actually pay off their mortgages.

This is how it works here: you borrow big (because real estate is bloody expensive, especially in Stockholm or an affluent/desirable suburb), but you only ever pay the interest, very few would consider paying any principal. For the most part those interest payments (+ body corporate costs) are similar to renting (most people live in apartments, and actually most people rent, ownership rates are low).

So why buy if you are never going to own it? Simple - to live where you want to. It might take many years to secure a rental property where you want to live (could be 5 to 10 years, seriously), and you can make a capital gain if you are smart.

As for 50k being a meager income, well its not high that's for sure, however to imply this would be reason to not marry someone comes across as a bit shallow and rather shortsighted. For example if you asked me how much I made 3 years ago I would have been slightly embarrassed - I had a shocking year when nothing seemed to go right - however the past two years have been right back on track and now into low 6 figures again (in USD). I'm not rich, not by any means, but not a pauper either.

By D_P calculations I would be a disaster catch -  my debt is higher than my annual income. However, I travel extensively each year, only work about 20-30 hours a week, have 12 to 16 weeks holiday a year and have a great lifestyle (actually I consider my life one endless holiday interspersed with occasional requirement to work...). I have essentially no worries and life is grand.

50k is also very relative - if its where property is cheap and cost of living is low, not so bad then, if its in London, Moscow, Boston etc then that's a whole different story. In Thailand I could live like a king on that income and have a wicked lifestyle. Maybe I have to forgo skiing in the French Alps, but hey, I could dive Sipadan a few times a year...

FWIW I have never viewed income as a sole indicator, but rather look at the whole package (income, lifestyle, location etc), its about quality of life - and people want different things out of life! I designed my life to suit me and not someone else (I own my company and do what the hell I want). Sure, I could work 60 - 80 hours a week and probably double my income, in fact I used to do just that, then I turned 40 and also have a child now - which changed everything, I'll take the free time with my kid any day of week.

[ghost of moon goddess]

The tone of exchange is increasingly UNcivil.

I guess some participants just carry a lot of anger and are full of missed opportunities.   
Hey, have you considered anger management courses? 

[Welder]

So D__P i advice you to avoid to advice yours friends, if you continue to have such false sense of the reality and shut your mouth.

You were doing so good up to the point of including the above.  You made your point....then pooped on it.

Both of you, DP and Patagonie, have valid points.  Patagonie DP did write that the guy had nothing to show for his debt.  My translation of that is it is debt, others may vary.  If that were the case and this was say a Canadian salary the budget would be tight.

Quick example 50K less taxes at 30%(using rough numbers) would equate to 35K take home.  Rent at say $750 per month, car payments of $500 per month, groceries for two at $500 per month, utilities at $200 per month and finally a $600 per month payment on his $50K debt would leave the guy with approximately $4500 at the end of the year.  This is pretty tight in my opinion.  I haven't included for any incidentals, leisure time expenses, clothes, gifts or FSU pursuit costs.

DP becareful with the 50K salary.  I know a fellow who can state this without lying, it would be a fraction of his income.

DP I agree with you on discussing financial position early.  I personally didn't have a problem with it.  The only caution I would throw out there is discussing finances can be like discussing a prenup.  I experienced this first hand.  My wife took what I said literally and from a Ukrainian view point.  I said,"Any western man could provide the simple things in life such as a house, car and gym memberships etc".  She took this as owning outright a house and car while I was talking about mortgages and loans(Pantagonie's example)  If memory serves me correct that was our third letter, so very early on.  By the time I visited 6 weeks later we had discussed all of this in much more detail and were on the same page. 

New comers beware you need to discuss these things in full detail.  Banking systems and financial perspectives are very much different from the west.  Sorry for stating the obvious to those with experience.

 

[pitbull]

  However, my values are my values.  If you do not like them, too bad for you.


The daughter is indeed a good girl.  I wager $1000 that she has had less sex than you at age 23, assuming you are typical.  And another $1000 that she has turned down more offers from worthy men than you ever had.

Gator,

Every good looking young girl in FSU gets a lot "offers" from men. Trust me, I got my share. A certain amount of them (unfortunately), are from married men, often with children, who just want some "pleasure on the side" with a young fresh body. Personally I consider those, especially with young kids at home, total scumbags.
So, you can wager all you are worth that, unlike "the daughter", I would never string along a married scumbag daddy by fueling his hopes that he could bo**k me one day, through "occasionally going out with him" and accepting expensive gifts. If my mother ever found out that I am doing something like that, she would quickly put me in my place.  And this is exactly how I'm going to raise my own daughter.
In your own words, "my values are my values.  If you do not like them, too bad for you."

[Patagonie]

Jeff And Welder you make good points, so i have corrected my post and have replaced is a good match by can be a match which is a much accurate expression.
You know Jeff, that you are minimum on the top 5 % of all sweden people with your income, just to say : FSU girls, don't imagine that is common, and a guy like Jeff is middle class (so it's quite normal to earn a six figures, work 20-30 hours per week with 3 to 4 months of vacation). Jeff may you tell your court in Sweden ? Just to explain that such profile, as your, are rare ?
You know why ? Sister's ex girlfriend FSU was married in England and as couple they were earning something like 160k $/year. She was believing that her household was a typical middle class english family. In fact this household is in the top 1%. So you can guess the danger of such false sense of reality.
With such stupids ideas you will have some girls who will return from dating saying : "Oh i met John yesterday, he has no debt but he only earn 8k$/month, i called my friend who lives in NY, she said that he is too poor. i cannot get married with such a man".
Pat

[Patagonie]

You make an other good point Jeff about this :


For women for which the "show me the money" is the $ of the world i have a difficult information to tell them :
 
  in my country disclosing information before marriage is not necessary
 ....and if i have to do, it is not necessary the one you want to know.
 In case of visa ,  i think i can avoid to display the whole wage, and probably the same in case of marriage , remember a marriage is about love, not only 
 
 And of course i will display the information as late as possible (if the one i date don't like the numeral i would put on the document... she would be free to stay at home, not necessary a bad thing, she will filter herself).
 As you have said D__P yourself an FSU woman needs ... ten years ... to understand how things are flying in USA or Europe.
In fact i'm sure we can speed up the process. But so till I AM sure that she has a clear knowledge and understanding of how does it works here, she will not know any numeral, which will avoid or minimize a lot of problems during the courtship (there are many difficulties so don't add more). And the few i met who were having high job or high wages, and travelling a lot, and a priori the firsts to have an advanced comprehension of the west, were the most "unreasonnable".
 
 I will explain you the process (for what i know because i don't consider myself as an expert) : first a K1 doesn't exist here. Fiancee visa any longer.
 Guest visa have little chance to work and are risky (if one is refused so you are in trouble for the rest of the process). Because Kiev Embassy (i date in Ukraine) is particular on the visa scene (for the moment for what i know)
 The easiest thing to do is to get married in Ukraine.
 
 So how can she know if i can support her ? What about the package, as Jeff spoke about, i can offer, which security i can offer her (an other big mistake that a lot of FSU are making is to believe that $ are the security and $ are high quality life, Jeff gave some suggestions about that.

 First she can meet my friends in Ukraine. There is a little chance that i have been a psychopat liar with my friends lasts two year  the risk is ......... statiscally low.
 I can send her any times documents about where i'm living, if i'm single, about my job (i already did such thing).
But my main task is to explain her, by equivallence, with whom i can be  compared in her society. Explain her honestly and slowly what will be our life, that she don't have to work, how she will be protected in the future her and childrens, even if i die.
 
Words, yes words for a large part.

 Second time, when things get more serious the best is she comes here for two weeks with a tourist travel. One week full vacation and second at home with me at work to let her have a realistic view of what would be a daily life.

 Yes i know sounds like less exciting than Las Vegas. But she will have a clear understanding of my court, where i live and how i live.

[Ade]

There are some very good points being raised about realistic expectations and ignorance about cost of living vs standard of living vs income vs debt vs discretionary income.

These are conversations that should be had between couples in a real relationship because yes, a lot of FSUW, have a very skewed idea of the personal economies in the West. Now, that being said, I don't think all these things should necessarily be raised in the first few weeks or even months of dating. If I remember correctly, when I started communicating with my wife, I told her about the generalities of life in Norway, including the "debt culture", taxes, cost of living, and cost of housing etc, and attempted to explain housing loans and credit here. This was to try to give her some basic understanding, a comparative baseline if you like, with which to work with. Without this background, knowing what your salary or debt is, is meaningless to her.

IMO, there really shouldn't be a need for detailed personal financial talks in the starting phases of a relationship. If she needs to know how much money you earn on the first trip, that's probably a bad sign.

There are many women like Donna Pedro; I suspect that MOB sites tend to attract more of them so there are a dispropotionate number there compared to the general population. Not a type of woman that appeals to me but other men do not mind playing 2nd fiddle to their wallet, and if that makes them happy, who am I to stand in their way? But problems do arise when a Wallet-Grabber tries to pull the wool over the eyes of a man who isn't particularly happy playing at being a walking ATM. 

[Ade]

Gator,

Every good looking young girl in FSU gets a lot "offers" from men. Trust me, I got my share. A certain amount of them (unfortunately), are from married men, often with children, who just want some "pleasure on the side" with a young fresh body. Personally I consider those, especially with young kids at home, total scumbags.
So, you can wager all you are worth that, unlike "the daughter", I would never string along a married scumbag daddy by fueling his hopes that he could bo**k me one day, through "occasionally going out with him" and accepting expensive gifts. If my mother ever found out that I am doing something like that, she would quickly put me in my place.  And this is exactly how I'm going to raise my own daughter.
In your own words, "my values are my values.  If you do not like them, too bad for you."

And I agree with Pitbull. 

[GQBlues]

Some people asked about offering clarifications......Were the financial expectations before and after the mother's illness a red/yellow flag based upon how long we have known each other? Yes.

Wonderful conviction, Civi. I am certain the masses will find admiration to your disposition!
 
Anyway, was the story about her mother true or untrue? Is she really in a terminal condition as we speak? If true, is it really too much to ask for a contact info so that an anonymous aid can at least be allowed?

[Misha]

Its interesting, how all of us - both those looking for good deals and those looking for pure love - "accidently" have posted their profiles on websites  designed especially to  hook up girls from FSU and men from rich western countries.  Curious ways this pure love chooses, dont you think?

You are overgeneralizing. I did not use such a website, rather I used a free Russian dating site. Increasingly, more and more men are using this option 

[GQBlues]

All the other attack on Gator's (future) DIL seem to have sprung because of the comment Gator made about his GF remarking Civi's woman as being a 'bad woman'. Silly. Most the participating member on this thread are/were saying the exact same thing about Civi's gal in more ways than one. Some of you even fully share Gator's POV about Civi's plight.
 
 
So what's the real reason for the attack on his DIL? If you have issues with Gator on this thread or another, don't drag other people into this scuffle that never had nothing to do with any of this, or whatever else caused your axes to dull.
 
Not cool.
 
 
Patagonie-
 
The last time I muttered the word 'STFU' when speaking with Turboguy and his wife, I didn't hesitate to publicly apologize when ask. You should do the same to Donna_Pedro.

[Faux Pas]

All the other attack on Gator's (future) DIL seem to have sprung because of the comment Gator made about his GF remarking Civi's woman as being a 'bad woman'. Silly. Most the participating member on this thread are/were saying the exact same thing about Civi's gal in more ways than one. Some of you even fully share Gator's POV about Civi's plight.
 
 
So what's the real reason for the attack on his DIL? If you have issues with Gator on this thread or another, don't drag other people into this scuffle that never had nothing to do with any of this, or whatever else caused your axes to dull.
 
Not cool.
 
 
Patagonie-
 
The last time I muttered the word 'STFU' when speaking with Turboguy and his wife, I didn't hesitate to publicly apologize when ask. You should do the same to Donna_Pedro.

Whole-heartedly agree +1

[JR]

Ask any russian  (Ukrainian) woman  if her material situation has improved with relocation to the west and 99% will say "yes".  So a "good deal"  for majority of rw pretty much goes together with marriage to a western men, even if he is not very rich by local standards. But some women just choose to ignore this "shameful fact" and keep pretending that their intentions were always  pure love. Its interesting, how all of us - both those looking for good deals and those looking for pure love - "accidently" have posted their profiles on websites  designed especially to  hook up girls from FSU and men from rich western countries.  Curious ways this pure love chooses, dont you think? 

Remove all the BS and there it is....the general rule of the general rule of the general rule ))) If you guys aren't taking notes you should be.

[OlgaH]

Gator,

Every good looking young girl in FSU gets a lot "offers" from men. Trust me, I got my share. A certain amount of them (unfortunately), are from married men, often with children, who just want some "pleasure on the side" with a young fresh body. Personally I consider those, especially with young kids at home, total scumbags.
So, you can wager all you are worth that, unlike "the daughter", I would never string along a married scumbag daddy by fueling his hopes that he could bo**k me one day, through "occasionally going out with him" and accepting expensive gifts. If my mother ever found out that I am doing something like that, she would quickly put me in my place.  And this is exactly how I'm going to raise my own daughter.
In your own words, "my values are my values.  If you do not like them, too bad for you."

I wholeheartedly agree! and there are many women who share your values including me.